Today, China launched the first 22-ton segment 'Tianhe' of their new space station. https://spacenews.com/china-launches-ti ... nto-orbit/
In its currently planned final configuration, two further similar segments will be added for a total mass of 66 tons, or just over 15% of the ISS. This will also make it the largest Chinese space station, albeit still smaller than Russia's Mir. The first astronauts are scheduled to arrive this summer.

Nice, congrats. Good to see as many knowledge as possible collected from this dark hole that space still largely is.

Agree, especially with ISS slated for retirement in 2024 and the new Lunar Gateway in limbo.

With some luck, you may find rocket parts in your yard within the next few days. Even if you don't live in Boca Chica, TX. https://spacenews.com/huge-rocket-looks ... on-launch/

mxaxai wrote:

Agree, especially with ISS slated for retirement in 2024 and the new Lunar Gateway in limbo.

I suspect the ISS will go beyond that, for how long is anyone's guess, Lunar Gateway, at least in the near future I suspect will be just the power and propulsion and a docking module.
However! I can think of a replacement for ISS. A Starship in LEO, like it's Lunar version not intended for Earth return. With no need for landing legs either.

GDB wrote:

However! I can think of a replacement for ISS. A Starship in LEO, like it's Lunar version not intended for Earth return. With no need for landing legs either.

While Starship would offer plenty of volume, it would likely need heavy modifications to become a permanent station. The ISS modules are fairly simple from a purely mechanical point of view. But the life support and all the other systems are pretty complex to enable a long lifetime and low maintenance. Starship's solar panels are also relatively small, which could limit some scientific payloads.

While it is uncertain if Roscosmos will still be part of the program after 2024 the US seems to want to keep it operational until 2030.

https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-con ... /6910/text

The International Space Station, as long as it is safe and functional, shall operate through at least September 30, 2030

When they plan to finish this space station? Also, I want to know how it will differ from the existing ISS?

MadAstronaut wrote:

When they plan to finish this space station? Also, I want to know how it will differ from the existing ISS?

This amateur but well informed Channel has a good overview, made before the whole booster incident;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06GUEkc4EEA

Interesting to note that even though a search for more on this had RT (Russian State 'News') gloating articles about how 'shocked' the US are about this Chinese station, as Scott points out if China has rebuffed anyone on this issue, it's Russia!
Also worth noting that ISS is getting several new modules this year too, some Russian.

GDB wrote:

MadAstronaut wrote:

When they plan to finish this space station? Also, I want to know how it will differ from the existing ISS?

This amateur but well informed Channel has a good overview, made before the whole booster incident;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06GUEkc4EEA

Interesting to note that even though a search for more on this had RT (Russian State 'News') gloating articles about how 'shocked' the US are about this Chinese station, as Scott points out if China has rebuffed anyone on this issue, it's Russia!
Also worth noting that ISS is getting several new modules this year too, some Russian.

Oh, I heard a lot about Scott Manley and even saw some of his videos, but I didn't know he is an amateur. He looks like a professional in this industry.

MadAstronaut wrote:

GDB wrote:

MadAstronaut wrote:

When they plan to finish this space station? Also, I want to know how it will differ from the existing ISS?

This amateur but well informed Channel has a good overview, made before the whole booster incident;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06GUEkc4EEA

Interesting to note that even though a search for more on this had RT (Russian State 'News') gloating articles about how 'shocked' the US are about this Chinese station, as Scott points out if China has rebuffed anyone on this issue, it's Russia!
Also worth noting that ISS is getting several new modules this year too, some Russian.

Oh, I heard a lot about Scott Manley and even saw some of his videos, but I didn't know he is an amateur. He looks like a professional in this industry.

He's a software developer I think, though with a Physics degree and a long association with space/astronomy.
Tim Dodd, (The Everyday Astronaut) has gone from enthusiastic amateur, once a professional photographer now a full time content maker, from reporting launches to deep dives into current and historic spaceflight. Even getting to interview Elon Musk, the NASA Administrator at the time and Peter Beck CEO of Rocket Lab.

More professional as in being a historian and published author, this You Tuber has a major presence and has been doing some very detailed looks at subjects such as recon from U2, Satellites via A-12/SR-71, as well as extensive content on early spaceflight, with a stated desire to now better cover that era from the Soviet side, though being regular guest on more mainstream friendly docs not so well regarded by enthusiasts should not put you off;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvMX43B_BrI

Marcus House from Australia does detailed looks at space X in particular.

Many more out there those I just the ones I would recommend, over some years of watching them.

GDB wrote:

Interesting to note that even though a search for more on this had RT (Russian State 'News') gloating articles about how 'shocked' the US are about this Chinese station, as Scott points out if China has rebuffed anyone on this issue, it's Russia!
Also worth noting that ISS is getting several new modules this year too, some Russian.

It would seem Russia is starting to get worried that they’re falling behind. They loved their decade of being the only real ride into space, but suddenly the American space programs have been kick started. We have our own rockets again, better and cheaper ones. We’re building even more, with eyes on the moon and Mars. Americans are taking interest in space exploration again.

And look at China...maybe they aren’t doing it “right” but they’re making fast progress.

I’m sure Roscosmos won’t be far behind and they’ve got some great ideas being developed, but after being accustomed to getting paid so much to lift foreign astronauts, the transition is tough

FGITD wrote:

GDB wrote:

Interesting to note that even though a search for more on this had RT (Russian State 'News') gloating articles about how 'shocked' the US are about this Chinese station, as Scott points out if China has rebuffed anyone on this issue, it's Russia!
Also worth noting that ISS is getting several new modules this year too, some Russian.

It would seem Russia is starting to get worried that they’re falling behind. They loved their decade of being the only real ride into space, but suddenly the American space programs have been kick started. We have our own rockets again, better and cheaper ones. We’re building even more, with eyes on the moon and Mars. Americans are taking interest in space exploration again.

And look at China...maybe they aren’t doing it “right” but they’re making fast progress.

I’m sure Roscosmos won’t be far behind and they’ve got some great ideas being developed, but after being accustomed to getting paid so much to lift foreign astronauts, the transition is tough

It's stark, comparing the reliable but designed in the mid 60's Soyuz at the ISS with Dragon, the first 21st Century manned spacecraft.
There have been many proposals, not including and post Buran, into replacing Soyuz, in a country that does not have to worry about the whims of Capitol Hill, nonetheless they have all come to nothing.

China, they seem happy to go their own way.

The first three astronauts have arrived https://spacenews.com/shenzhou-12-docks ... on-module/

mxaxai wrote:

The first three astronauts have arrived https://spacenews.com/shenzhou-12-docks ... on-module/

If they stay for as long as planned, quite the extension in experience for them.
Including the first Chinese EVA.
Scott Manley mentioned that there is a conference in Russia going on, between the Chinese and Russian agencies, aside from grandiose plans for a joint manned Lunar landing/base set up around 2035, talks about a Soyuz mission to Tiangong.
Due to the stations orbital inclination, the only way they could do this would be launching from the ESA site in South America, which could be interesting politically.

GDB wrote:

mxaxai wrote:

The first three astronauts have arrived https://spacenews.com/shenzhou-12-docks ... on-module/

If they stay for as long as planned, quite the extension in experience for them.
Including the first Chinese EVA.
Scott Manley mentioned that there is a conference in Russia going on, between the Chinese and Russian agencies, aside from grandiose plans for a joint manned Lunar landing/base set up around 2035, talks about a Soyuz mission to Tiangong.
Due to the stations orbital inclination, the only way they could do this would be launching from the ESA site in South America, which could be interesting politically.

A lot of big milestones coming up for the Chinese, and certainly will put them to the test. A functioning space station really is a whole different game than just orbital launch.

I really believe the issue that your second point will run into is that while Russia is a long time space-faring country, there’s no way China would hand over control of any programs to anyone else. A Russian cosmonaut could literally carry a Chinese astronaut onto the moon, and it will still be heralded as a glorious success led by the Chinese.

They aren’t looking for a partner, they’re looking for someone with the knowledge and experience to learn from….that they can promptly abandon when the time is right.

As for using the ESA site…I hope the ESA gives Roscosmos the same discount NASA got out of Russia.

FGITD wrote:

GDB wrote:

mxaxai wrote:

The first three astronauts have arrived https://spacenews.com/shenzhou-12-docks ... on-module/

If they stay for as long as planned, quite the extension in experience for them.
Including the first Chinese EVA.
Scott Manley mentioned that there is a conference in Russia going on, between the Chinese and Russian agencies, aside from grandiose plans for a joint manned Lunar landing/base set up around 2035, talks about a Soyuz mission to Tiangong.
Due to the stations orbital inclination, the only way they could do this would be launching from the ESA site in South America, which could be interesting politically.

A lot of big milestones coming up for the Chinese, and certainly will put them to the test. A functioning space station really is a whole different game than just orbital launch.

I really believe the issue that your second point will run into is that while Russia is a long time space-faring country, there’s no way China would hand over control of any programs to anyone else. A Russian cosmonaut could literally carry a Chinese astronaut onto the moon, and it will still be heralded as a glorious success led by the Chinese.

They aren’t looking for a partner, they’re looking for someone with the knowledge and experience to learn from….that they can promptly abandon when the time is right.

As for using the ESA site…I hope the ESA gives Roscosmos the same discount NASA got out of Russia.

The same thought went through my head, ESA could make them pay through the nose!
Not sure what the US would make of it, with their ban on China with the ISS, not so much with ESA but if two ISS veteran Cosmonauts for instance went there, though Roscosmos could provide ISS information to China as part of any deal.

Still, Russia is to launch a new module to the ISS this year.
Nonetheless if Boeing finally get Starliner operational, along with the operational manned and cargo Dragon, the NG supply module, the Soyuz/Progress combination is looking very old and limited.
They are at a crossroads, there is not that gap in capability with China.

GDB wrote:

The same thought went through my head, ESA could make them pay through the nose!
Not sure what the US would make of it, with their ban on China with the ISS, not so much with ESA but if two ISS veteran Cosmonauts for instance went there, though Roscosmos could provide ISS information to China as part of any deal.

Still, Russia is to launch a new module to the ISS this year.
Nonetheless if Boeing finally get Starliner operational, along with the operational manned and cargo Dragon, the NG supply module, the Soyuz/Progress combination is looking very old and limited.
They are at a crossroads, there is not that gap in capability with China.

It’s a shame ESA doesn’t have their own manned rated vehicle.

Valid (and humorous) point about the ban. It’s not as if Cosmo Vlad who’s spent an aggregate 1.5 years on the ISS would suddenly forget everything about it. I bet his memory might even need a little refreshing in the form of currency transfers.

My main concern isn’t collaboration, it’s communication. Launch, fly, do what you want. But make sure your stuff doesn’t hit ours and vice versa.

I saw a video of the crew-2 members giving a tour of their Dragon, and you could almost sense a little jealously coming out of the Russians with their Soyuz

FGITD wrote:

GDB wrote:

The same thought went through my head, ESA could make them pay through the nose!
Not sure what the US would make of it, with their ban on China with the ISS, not so much with ESA but if two ISS veteran Cosmonauts for instance went there, though Roscosmos could provide ISS information to China as part of any deal.

Still, Russia is to launch a new module to the ISS this year.
Nonetheless if Boeing finally get Starliner operational, along with the operational manned and cargo Dragon, the NG supply module, the Soyuz/Progress combination is looking very old and limited.
They are at a crossroads, there is not that gap in capability with China.

It’s a shame ESA doesn’t have their own manned rated vehicle.

Valid (and humorous) point about the ban. It’s not as if Cosmo Vlad who’s spent an aggregate 1.5 years on the ISS would suddenly forget everything about it. I bet his memory might even need a little refreshing in the form of currency transfers.

My main concern isn’t collaboration, it’s communication. Launch, fly, do what you want. But make sure your stuff doesn’t hit ours and vice versa.

I saw a video of the crew-2 members giving a tour of their Dragon, and you could almost sense a little jealously coming out of the Russians with their Soyuz

With ESA, well once upon time...
There was the French led Hermes spaceplane, originally one of the goals of Ariane 5 was to carry it;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermes_(spacecraft)

Very expensive, rather limited for the price, there was however an alternative but at the time the UK government were hostile to major ESA projects, which grandiose plans like Hermes gave an excuse for, actually they were hostile to major technology and manufacturing in general.
Shame, since BAe, which at the time they held a Golden Share, came up with this more sensible, likely way less expensive design, which in modernized form could still be use today;
http://www.astronautix.com/m/multi-role ... psule.html

The most recent usually monthly BBC The Sky At Night programme, broadcast since just before the space age began in 1957, highlighted the UK's Space Industry, expanding in recent years and for over 50 years a major satellite builder.
Not just sats in orbit, the Giotto spacecraft that visited Halley's Comet in 1986 was BAe.
When I think of 'Skynet', it's not the deadly computer from the Terminator movies, it's the range of UK military comsats of the last 50 years, a new series is on order, to give another example.
So in that period, BAe had the ability, with partners of course, to design and build the vehicle above.

Maybe another idea in the early 90's might have been for ESA to offer financial and technical support to get Buran operational.
Which would not have bothered the US, indeed they might have welcomed even more incentive for Russian engineers to keep busy, as we saw when the long running US space station saga become the ISS.

In the next few years we might see the first UK designed and built launch vehicle since 1971's Black Arrow.
(It's satellite payload is still in orbit).

Huge congrats to the people involved. It's quite the achievement to put a station up, put people there, and send up supplies too. I wish them success in the peaceful use of it.

It's a real shame they have not been allowed to participate in the ISS. I hope JAXA, ESA, and Roscosmos are able to cooperate with them well.

Now here's to breaking the record for most humans in orbit in the next couple months.

FGITD wrote:

They aren’t looking for a partner, they’re looking for someone with the knowledge and experience to learn from….that they can promptly abandon when the time is right.

Amusing.

Initially coop with Soviets/Russia was imho linked to their more expansive experience with ops and resulting contingencies in space.

Badmouthing the Russians seems to be linked to how the (US) home team progresses.

The Soviet engines were reworked/fiddles with to no end.
But if they fail it is duh, simple, limited use foreign stuff

WIederling wrote:

FGITD wrote:

They aren’t looking for a partner, they’re looking for someone with the knowledge and experience to learn from….that they can promptly abandon when the time is right.

Amusing.

Initially coop with Soviets/Russia was imho linked to their more expansive experience with ops and resulting contingencies in space.

Badmouthing the Russians seems to be linked to how the (US) home team progresses.

The Soviet engines were reworked/fiddles with to no end.
But if they fail it is duh, simple, limited use foreign stuff

It's not about badmouthing the Russians, it's about the reality of the situation, one of which is that the Chinese manned spacecraft looks a lot like the Soyuz, almost externally identical.

Those engines, if you are referring to the ones found after 20 years, these highly innovative rockets were surprising on two counts.
The first being just how good they were, the Soviet Chief Designer in the 60's turned to a design team not for rockets but for jets, mainly because he could not get on with the leader of the team meant to built the engines for the Soviet Heavy Lift Launcher, due to both disagreements over things like size of engines, to fuel used and also that the engine designer had denounced the now Chief Designer in the 30's to Stalin's insane purges, to save his own skin.

The other being that they managed to keep all these pristine engines secret from the authorities which were after 1974, destroying as many traces of the Soviet manned Lunar program since their stance was that 'they were never in a race with the US', (after they lost of course).
Sections of N1's ended up housing pigs.

Not that they really stood much of a chance, no approval to proceed until 1964, a fraction of the budget, the untimely death of the Chief Designer, (already weakened by time in the Gulag). Had NASA head James Webb died in the mid/late 60's it would not likely have prevented the US from getting to the Moon, the same could not be said for the Soviet program in general, witness Soyuz 1.

Those engines were designed since the Soviets did not think they could build anything like the Saturn V's F-1, to be fair that did have a protracted development but came good.
So the solution was many but smaller engines which were also more efficient that anything else, anywhere, for over 20 years, however quality and reliability of the control systems and plumbing for 30 of them was what killed the N1.
Not throwing shade here, this was over 50 years ago after all.

And the US on finding these engines was not too proud to admit how good they were, how they did not think they could be built for a long time, hence no US counterpart, then using them, on US rockets;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NK-33

It makes sense for China to use the Soyuz as a template for their manned spaceflight and early space stations, the latter the early Salyut template, this latest station looks to be a development much more like Mir.
A copy of concept rather than a direct one.

GDB wrote:

So the solution was many but smaller engines which were also more efficient that anything else, anywhere, for over 20 years, however quality and reliability of the control systems and plumbing for 30 of them was what killed the N1.
Not throwing shade here, this was over 50 years ago after all.

And the US on finding these engines was not too proud to admit how good they were, how they did not think they could be built for a long time, hence no US counterpart, then using them, on US rockets;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NK-33

N1 was flown with NK15 engines. By far not reliable enough at the time.
NK33 was developed after that ( but driven by the NK15 failures.)
perfected oxygen rich combustion.

F1 turned the large chamber/nozzle design to the useable side in a fuel rich layout.

But design wise stability goes up with smaller chamber/nozzle designs
while turbomachinery improves on upscaling.
( motivation behind the soviet/russian 1 fuelpumpsystem feeds 2 chambers )

ZaphodHarkonnen wrote:

It's a real shame they have not been allowed to participate in the ISS. I hope JAXA, ESA, and Roscosmos are able to cooperate with them well.

I'm not sure how much cooperation with JAXA and ESA we can expect, though ESA is the more likely of the two.

What I do expect are cooperations with smaller countries without their own space program, similar to how the USSR invited cosmonauts and researchers from fellow socialist countries.

mxaxai wrote:

ZaphodHarkonnen wrote:

It's a real shame they have not been allowed to participate in the ISS. I hope JAXA, ESA, and Roscosmos are able to cooperate with them well.

I'm not sure how much cooperation with JAXA and ESA we can expect, though ESA is the more likely of the two.

What I do expect are cooperations with smaller countries without their own space program, similar to how the USSR invited cosmonauts and researchers from fellow socialist countries.

ESA is already doing joint stuff with China on space. It wouldn't be much of a step for them to send people to a Chinese station once it's properly operational.

ZaphodHarkonnen wrote:

ESA is already doing joint stuff with China on space. It wouldn't be much of a step for them to send people to a Chinese station once it's properly operational.

True, although ESA is very much at the mercy of its member states. If one of them wakes up one day and decides that the friendship with China is now cancelled, there's little that ESA can do.

There's also the question what China wants in return - ESA has a very limited budget and would rather spend it in the member countries. Most agreements between NASA and ESA don't involve the exchange of money but rather equipment, services and data. ESA's ticket to the ISS, for example, is the Columbus module and the ATV resupply missions.

mxaxai wrote:

ZaphodHarkonnen wrote:

ESA is already doing joint stuff with China on space. It wouldn't be much of a step for them to send people to a Chinese station once it's properly operational.

True, although ESA is very much at the mercy of its member states. If one of them wakes up one day and decides that the friendship with China is now cancelled, there's little that ESA can do.

Not a real danger.
The US is not member to ESA.

WIederling wrote:

mxaxai wrote:

ZaphodHarkonnen wrote:

ESA is already doing joint stuff with China on space. It wouldn't be much of a step for them to send people to a Chinese station once it's properly operational.

True, although ESA is very much at the mercy of its member states. If one of them wakes up one day and decides that the friendship with China is now cancelled, there's little that ESA can do.
Not a real danger.
The US is not member to ESA.

ESA generally speaking, acts with pragmatism rather than pure politics, despite France pushing hard for that Hermes Spaceplane in the 80's and early 90's, the rest were not enthusiastic, imagine what it would do to the budget for everything else.

More recently, I am pleased that ESA has been above the utter political/governmental shitshow that is the UK these past few years, UK led missions are still being approved, last year being a good one for them, a recently announced program to lead the Moonlight mission, to determine the requirements to provide secure comms for manned Lunar missions, putting them in pole position to build the hardware, as evidenced by who is doing it.
Yes, the UK Government has increased UK funding for ESA, so even that bunch, their whole political identity being this fake patriotic/anti EU stance, see the value in ESA, or maybe they are regretting pulling out of the ESA Satnav program which prior to the madness here, the UK was also heavily involved with.

If the above is not a display of pragmatism, I don't know what is.
When your budget is limited, it's the logical thing to do.
Cancelling a 'friendship' with China (which in Europe are more and increasingly strained with China than I think many assume, naturally that differs some between nations but generally is the case), would have wider ramifications beyond ESA, whatever form that cancelling took.

China is not banking now on ISS access, if they ever were, bluntly unlike the other partners, they had nothing to bring to the party, I doubt they would like ESA access to their station either.
This station program likely has been in the planning stage for decades, like their manned program.
Russia does have much to offer, experience, similar designs, I don't mean straight copies but heavily influenced, so easier to integrate with China.

GDB wrote:

WIederling wrote:

mxaxai wrote:

True, although ESA is very much at the mercy of its member states. If one of them wakes up one day and decides that the friendship with China is now cancelled, there's little that ESA can do.
Not a real danger.
The US is not member to ESA.

ESA generally speaking, acts with pragmatism rather than pure politics, despite France pushing hard for that Hermes Spaceplane in the 80's and ........................
Russia does have much to offer, experience, similar designs, I don't mean straight copies but heavily influenced, so easier to integrate with China.

A good synopsis, thank you.
Euro <> Soviet space coop is a long standing thing:
https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/b ... -5%2F1.pdf

OT: Seen Luc Beson's last SF Movie? especially the beginnings :: coop, friendship, across all individuals .. ?
unsurprisingly ripped by US critics.

I've read that Russia is going to build a station on the surface of the Moon with China. What do you think about that point? Do you think that really possible at all?

bearnard123 wrote:

I've read that Russia is going to build a station on the surface of the Moon with China. What do you think about that point? Do you think that really possible at all?

Neither Russia nor China currently have a launcher that could bring the necessary payloads to the Moon. While there are programs in development, it will take some time, likely not before the mid '30s.

China has the resources and technology to do this on its own. Russia has a great deal of experience in manned space operations. Both have political reasons to pursue projects such as this.

However, I guess that building a space station on the surface of Moon can cause some international conflicts on Earth between particular countries. So building a Moon station might be not a good idea

WIederling wrote:

GDB wrote:

WIederling wrote:

ESA generally speaking, acts with pragmatism rather than pure politics, despite France pushing hard for that Hermes Spaceplane in the 80's and ........................
Russia does have much to offer, experience, similar designs, I don't mean straight copies but heavily influenced, so easier to integrate with China.

A good synopsis, thank you.
Euro <> Soviet space coop is a long standing thing:
https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/b ... -5%2F1.pdf

OT: Seen Luc Beson's last SF Movie? especially the beginnings :: coop, friendship, across all individuals .. ?
unsurprisingly ripped by US critics.

I haven't seen the film, really I am not a Sci Fi fan, really because doing a good Sci Fi movie is rather like doing a good comedy one, difficult, so ones I at least regard as good are rare.
Not into fantasy at all, when you regard faster than light travel and oddly human like aliens as that, it sort of limits your scope!
I still think no one has really matched Clarke and Kubrick's 1968 classic.

First Chinese EVA;
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... -spacewalk

After a three month mission, crew return home;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ec8dyLkVoXs

China has sent its next crew to Tiangong. This time for 6 months.

The three astronauts lifted off on the Shenzhou-13 spacecraft just past midnight local time, launched by a Long March 2F rocket from the Jiuquan Satellite Launch Center in the Gobi Desert, located in Inner Mongolia.
They will dock at China's new space station, Tiangong (which means Heavenly Palace), six and a half hours after launch. They will live and work at the station for 183 days, or just about six months -- the country's longest mission yet.

The crew includes Zhai Zhigang, Wang Yaping and Ye Guanfu, who will spend the time testing the station's technology and conducting spacewalks.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/15/china/ch ... index.html

Tugg

Interesting they are allowing more outside media access, well even at the height of the Moon race, well before Apollo-Soyuz was mooted, the Astronauts and Cosmonauts had informal contacts. The final comments above China now providing an incentive for the West I agree with.