Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
mxaxai wrote:Agree, especially with ISS slated for retirement in 2024 and the new Lunar Gateway in limbo.
GDB wrote:However! I can think of a replacement for ISS. A Starship in LEO, like it's Lunar version not intended for Earth return. With no need for landing legs either.
The International Space Station, as long as it is safe and functional, shall operate through at least September 30, 2030
MadAstronaut wrote:When they plan to finish this space station? Also, I want to know how it will differ from the existing ISS?
GDB wrote:MadAstronaut wrote:When they plan to finish this space station? Also, I want to know how it will differ from the existing ISS?
This amateur but well informed Channel has a good overview, made before the whole booster incident;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06GUEkc4EEA
Interesting to note that even though a search for more on this had RT (Russian State 'News') gloating articles about how 'shocked' the US are about this Chinese station, as Scott points out if China has rebuffed anyone on this issue, it's Russia!
Also worth noting that ISS is getting several new modules this year too, some Russian.
MadAstronaut wrote:GDB wrote:MadAstronaut wrote:When they plan to finish this space station? Also, I want to know how it will differ from the existing ISS?
This amateur but well informed Channel has a good overview, made before the whole booster incident;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06GUEkc4EEA
Interesting to note that even though a search for more on this had RT (Russian State 'News') gloating articles about how 'shocked' the US are about this Chinese station, as Scott points out if China has rebuffed anyone on this issue, it's Russia!
Also worth noting that ISS is getting several new modules this year too, some Russian.
Oh, I heard a lot about Scott Manley and even saw some of his videos, but I didn't know he is an amateur. He looks like a professional in this industry.
GDB wrote:
Interesting to note that even though a search for more on this had RT (Russian State 'News') gloating articles about how 'shocked' the US are about this Chinese station, as Scott points out if China has rebuffed anyone on this issue, it's Russia!
Also worth noting that ISS is getting several new modules this year too, some Russian.
FGITD wrote:GDB wrote:
Interesting to note that even though a search for more on this had RT (Russian State 'News') gloating articles about how 'shocked' the US are about this Chinese station, as Scott points out if China has rebuffed anyone on this issue, it's Russia!
Also worth noting that ISS is getting several new modules this year too, some Russian.
It would seem Russia is starting to get worried that they’re falling behind. They loved their decade of being the only real ride into space, but suddenly the American space programs have been kick started. We have our own rockets again, better and cheaper ones. We’re building even more, with eyes on the moon and Mars. Americans are taking interest in space exploration again.
And look at China...maybe they aren’t doing it “right” but they’re making fast progress.
I’m sure Roscosmos won’t be far behind and they’ve got some great ideas being developed, but after being accustomed to getting paid so much to lift foreign astronauts, the transition is tough
mxaxai wrote:The first three astronauts have arrived https://spacenews.com/shenzhou-12-docks ... on-module/
GDB wrote:mxaxai wrote:The first three astronauts have arrived https://spacenews.com/shenzhou-12-docks ... on-module/
If they stay for as long as planned, quite the extension in experience for them.
Including the first Chinese EVA.
Scott Manley mentioned that there is a conference in Russia going on, between the Chinese and Russian agencies, aside from grandiose plans for a joint manned Lunar landing/base set up around 2035, talks about a Soyuz mission to Tiangong.
Due to the stations orbital inclination, the only way they could do this would be launching from the ESA site in South America, which could be interesting politically.
FGITD wrote:GDB wrote:mxaxai wrote:The first three astronauts have arrived https://spacenews.com/shenzhou-12-docks ... on-module/
If they stay for as long as planned, quite the extension in experience for them.
Including the first Chinese EVA.
Scott Manley mentioned that there is a conference in Russia going on, between the Chinese and Russian agencies, aside from grandiose plans for a joint manned Lunar landing/base set up around 2035, talks about a Soyuz mission to Tiangong.
Due to the stations orbital inclination, the only way they could do this would be launching from the ESA site in South America, which could be interesting politically.
A lot of big milestones coming up for the Chinese, and certainly will put them to the test. A functioning space station really is a whole different game than just orbital launch.
I really believe the issue that your second point will run into is that while Russia is a long time space-faring country, there’s no way China would hand over control of any programs to anyone else. A Russian cosmonaut could literally carry a Chinese astronaut onto the moon, and it will still be heralded as a glorious success led by the Chinese.
They aren’t looking for a partner, they’re looking for someone with the knowledge and experience to learn from….that they can promptly abandon when the time is right.
As for using the ESA site…I hope the ESA gives Roscosmos the same discount NASA got out of Russia.
GDB wrote:
The same thought went through my head, ESA could make them pay through the nose!
Not sure what the US would make of it, with their ban on China with the ISS, not so much with ESA but if two ISS veteran Cosmonauts for instance went there, though Roscosmos could provide ISS information to China as part of any deal.
Still, Russia is to launch a new module to the ISS this year.
Nonetheless if Boeing finally get Starliner operational, along with the operational manned and cargo Dragon, the NG supply module, the Soyuz/Progress combination is looking very old and limited.
They are at a crossroads, there is not that gap in capability with China.
FGITD wrote:GDB wrote:
The same thought went through my head, ESA could make them pay through the nose!
Not sure what the US would make of it, with their ban on China with the ISS, not so much with ESA but if two ISS veteran Cosmonauts for instance went there, though Roscosmos could provide ISS information to China as part of any deal.
Still, Russia is to launch a new module to the ISS this year.
Nonetheless if Boeing finally get Starliner operational, along with the operational manned and cargo Dragon, the NG supply module, the Soyuz/Progress combination is looking very old and limited.
They are at a crossroads, there is not that gap in capability with China.
It’s a shame ESA doesn’t have their own manned rated vehicle.
Valid (and humorous) point about the ban. It’s not as if Cosmo Vlad who’s spent an aggregate 1.5 years on the ISS would suddenly forget everything about it. I bet his memory might even need a little refreshing in the form of currency transfers.
My main concern isn’t collaboration, it’s communication. Launch, fly, do what you want. But make sure your stuff doesn’t hit ours and vice versa.
I saw a video of the crew-2 members giving a tour of their Dragon, and you could almost sense a little jealously coming out of the Russians with their Soyuz
FGITD wrote:They aren’t looking for a partner, they’re looking for someone with the knowledge and experience to learn from….that they can promptly abandon when the time is right.
WIederling wrote:FGITD wrote:They aren’t looking for a partner, they’re looking for someone with the knowledge and experience to learn from….that they can promptly abandon when the time is right.
Amusing.
Initially coop with Soviets/Russia was imho linked to their more expansive experience with ops and resulting contingencies in space.
Badmouthing the Russians seems to be linked to how the (US) home team progresses.
The Soviet engines were reworked/fiddles with to no end.
But if they fail it is duh, simple, limited use foreign stuff
GDB wrote:So the solution was many but smaller engines which were also more efficient that anything else, anywhere, for over 20 years, however quality and reliability of the control systems and plumbing for 30 of them was what killed the N1.
Not throwing shade here, this was over 50 years ago after all.
And the US on finding these engines was not too proud to admit how good they were, how they did not think they could be built for a long time, hence no US counterpart, then using them, on US rockets;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NK-33
ZaphodHarkonnen wrote:It's a real shame they have not been allowed to participate in the ISS. I hope JAXA, ESA, and Roscosmos are able to cooperate with them well.
mxaxai wrote:ZaphodHarkonnen wrote:It's a real shame they have not been allowed to participate in the ISS. I hope JAXA, ESA, and Roscosmos are able to cooperate with them well.
I'm not sure how much cooperation with JAXA and ESA we can expect, though ESA is the more likely of the two.
What I do expect are cooperations with smaller countries without their own space program, similar to how the USSR invited cosmonauts and researchers from fellow socialist countries.
ZaphodHarkonnen wrote:ESA is already doing joint stuff with China on space. It wouldn't be much of a step for them to send people to a Chinese station once it's properly operational.
mxaxai wrote:ZaphodHarkonnen wrote:ESA is already doing joint stuff with China on space. It wouldn't be much of a step for them to send people to a Chinese station once it's properly operational.
True, although ESA is very much at the mercy of its member states. If one of them wakes up one day and decides that the friendship with China is now cancelled, there's little that ESA can do.
WIederling wrote:mxaxai wrote:ZaphodHarkonnen wrote:ESA is already doing joint stuff with China on space. It wouldn't be much of a step for them to send people to a Chinese station once it's properly operational.
True, although ESA is very much at the mercy of its member states. If one of them wakes up one day and decides that the friendship with China is now cancelled, there's little that ESA can do.
Not a real danger.
The US is not member to ESA.
GDB wrote:WIederling wrote:mxaxai wrote:True, although ESA is very much at the mercy of its member states. If one of them wakes up one day and decides that the friendship with China is now cancelled, there's little that ESA can do.
Not a real danger.
The US is not member to ESA.
ESA generally speaking, acts with pragmatism rather than pure politics, despite France pushing hard for that Hermes Spaceplane in the 80's and ........................
Russia does have much to offer, experience, similar designs, I don't mean straight copies but heavily influenced, so easier to integrate with China.
bearnard123 wrote:I've read that Russia is going to build a station on the surface of the Moon with China. What do you think about that point? Do you think that really possible at all?
WIederling wrote:GDB wrote:WIederling wrote:
ESA generally speaking, acts with pragmatism rather than pure politics, despite France pushing hard for that Hermes Spaceplane in the 80's and ........................
Russia does have much to offer, experience, similar designs, I don't mean straight copies but heavily influenced, so easier to integrate with China.
A good synopsis, thank you.
Euro <> Soviet space coop is a long standing thing:
https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/b ... -5%2F1.pdf
OT: Seen Luc Beson's last SF Movie? especially the beginnings :: coop, friendship, across all individuals .. ?
unsurprisingly ripped by US critics.
The three astronauts lifted off on the Shenzhou-13 spacecraft just past midnight local time, launched by a Long March 2F rocket from the Jiuquan Satellite Launch Center in the Gobi Desert, located in Inner Mongolia.
They will dock at China's new space station, Tiangong (which means Heavenly Palace), six and a half hours after launch. They will live and work at the station for 183 days, or just about six months -- the country's longest mission yet.
The crew includes Zhai Zhigang, Wang Yaping and Ye Guanfu, who will spend the time testing the station's technology and conducting spacewalks.