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kitplane01
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Posts: 2008
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2016 5:58 am

Operational cost of various military units

Tue May 25, 2021 7:39 am

Costs to run various military units (once you're already bought the equipment)

Armored combat brigade: $316M
Aircraft Carrier: $1,470M
Aircraft Carrier Wing: $1,140M
Attack Submarine: $190M
F-16 (12 aircraft): $210M
B-1 (12 aircraft): $1,200M
C-17 (12 aircraft): $330M
MQ-9 (12 aircraft): $220M

Also, an F-16 (12 aircraft) has 420 direct reports. An MQ-9 (12 aircraft) has 330 direct report troops.

The report does not list hours/missions per year, just the cost at the current operational levels.

Interesting to me that a 12 aircraft squadron has about the same acquisition and operational cost as a submarine or a destroyer (give or take).

MQ-9's cost more to operate that I would have guessed.
https://assets.documentcloud.org/docume ... primer.pdf table S-1
 
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747classic
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Joined: Sat Aug 15, 2009 9:13 am

Re: Operational cost of various military units

Tue May 25, 2021 9:21 am

From what table you calculated these figures (table S1, i couldn't find : page ?)
Looking at all figures I was overwhelmed by the operating costs of the F35A, even higher than the F22.
For the future "mainstay" of the USAF this is IMO unacceptable.
 
kelval
Posts: 66
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2012 2:09 pm

Re: Operational cost of various military units

Tue May 25, 2021 5:56 pm

The F16 squadron is 270M, and not 210. That's 25% more.

Interesting document, thanks.
 
kelval
Posts: 66
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2012 2:09 pm

Re: Operational cost of various military units

Tue May 25, 2021 6:23 pm

747classic wrote:
From what table you calculated these figures (table S1, i couldn't find : page ?)
Looking at all figures I was overwhelmed by the operating costs of the F35A, even higher than the F22.
For the future "mainstay" of the USAF this is IMO unacceptable.

Yes that's impressive.
And it's possibly because a F35 unit needs 3x more military personnel than a F16 unit and double more than a F22 one.
It's still crazy to think that a F35 squadron is 10% more expensive than a F22 squadron.



That's also food for thought for the export clients, and for those that only consider the factory selling price when comparing fighters sales.
 
IADFCO
Posts: 278
Joined: Sun May 22, 2016 4:20 pm

Re: Operational cost of various military units

Tue May 25, 2021 7:15 pm

Very interesting document, thanks for posting!
 
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kitplane01
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Posts: 2008
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2016 5:58 am

Re: Operational cost of various military units

Wed May 26, 2021 3:38 am

747classic wrote:
From what table you calculated these figures (table S1, i couldn't find : page ?)
Looking at all figures I was overwhelmed by the operating costs of the F35A, even higher than the F22.
For the future "mainstay" of the USAF this is IMO unacceptable.


8th page of the PDF.

I didn't calculate anything ... I just copied (with one error see above).
 
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kitplane01
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Posts: 2008
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2016 5:58 am

Re: Operational cost of various military units

Wed May 26, 2021 3:40 am

kelval wrote:
747classic wrote:
From what table you calculated these figures (table S1, i couldn't find : page ?)
Looking at all figures I was overwhelmed by the operating costs of the F35A, even higher than the F22.
For the future "mainstay" of the USAF this is IMO unacceptable.

Yes that's impressive.
And it's possibly because a F35 unit needs 3x more military personnel than a F16 unit and double more than a F22 one.
It's still crazy to think that a F35 squadron is 10% more expensive than a F22 squadron.



That's also food for thought for the export clients, and for those that only consider the factory selling price when comparing fighters sales.


Everything I read tells me the F-16 was awesome, and no one should use the F-35 for anything an F-16 can already do, like CAS or air patrol.
 
Heinkel
Posts: 322
Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2013 6:15 pm

Re: Operational cost of various military units

Wed May 26, 2021 5:16 pm

kitplane01 wrote:
Costs to run various military units (once you're already bought the equipment)

Armored combat brigade: $316M
...


Very interesting document. Thanks for sharing.

Looks like there is another small copy error:

As far as I understand it, the "Army Armored Brigade" is 3,160 million (3.16 billion) per year and not only 316 million (on top of page 22).

It has 16,330 personnel. All of them want to be paid.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8330
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Operational cost of various military units

Wed May 26, 2021 6:25 pm

I’d be very chary of these numbers and the document in general. I ran a C-5 squadron with 14 UE planes and about 210 squadron members, so I don’t see anyway a 12-plan squadron needs 710 direct personnel.
 
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kitplane01
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Re: Operational cost of various military units

Thu May 27, 2021 8:43 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
I’d be very chary of these numbers and the document in general. I ran a C-5 squadron with 14 UE planes and about 210 squadron members, so I don’t see anyway a 12-plan squadron needs 710 direct personnel.


I believe you. And I believe the CBO is at least close on their numbers. So I'm not sure what to think.

I wonder if "direct personnel" might include more than just the people in the squadron? Maybe direct personnel includes the second tier maintenance dedicated to the C-5s and associated engines (and maybe even C-5 specific training people)?? They do have an additional "indirect personnel" which they write includes human resources and JAGs and stuff.

Also, why are there 7 squadrons to operate 52 planes, especially if one squadron has 14 of them?
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8330
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Operational cost of various military units

Thu May 27, 2021 2:46 pm

Politics, pure and simple. We went from 14 UE to 8 as the other units did. I was at an AMC meeting and both the AMC/DO and LG said it was stupid but that’s the direction from the Pentagon. Same number of units, same number of O-6 and O-7 positions, half the planes.

WV ANG and TN ANG just had C-5 for short time just to keep the wings alive after the C-130 and C-141 drawdown. As did Wright-Patt reserves
 
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STT757
Posts: 14535
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:14 am

Re: Operational cost of various military units

Thu May 27, 2021 4:20 pm

Heinkel wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:
Costs to run various military units (once you're already bought the equipment)

Armored combat brigade: $316M
...


Very interesting document. Thanks for sharing.

Looks like there is another small copy error:

As far as I understand it, the "Army Armored Brigade" is 3,160 million (3.16 billion) per year and not only 316 million (on top of page 22).

It has 16,330 personnel. All of them want to be paid.


An Armored Brigade Combat team had 3,800 personnel. 16,330 is a division sized force no? 3 Armored Brigade Combat Teams, 1 Combat Aviation Brigade, Division Artillery, Support Bridge etc.. gets your to 16,000-20,000 troops for a Division.

$300 million for an Armored Brigade Combat team is good value, a Stryker or Infantry Brigade would probably been even less.
 
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kitplane01
Topic Author
Posts: 2008
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2016 5:58 am

Re: Operational cost of various military units

Thu May 27, 2021 7:35 pm

STT757 wrote:
Heinkel wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:
Costs to run various military units (once you're already bought the equipment)

Armored combat brigade: $316M
...


Very interesting document. Thanks for sharing.

Looks like there is another small copy error:

As far as I understand it, the "Army Armored Brigade" is 3,160 million (3.16 billion) per year and not only 316 million (on top of page 22).

It has 16,330 personnel. All of them want to be paid.


An Armored Brigade Combat team had 3,800 personnel. 16,330 is a division sized force no? 3 Armored Brigade Combat Teams, 1 Combat Aviation Brigade, Division Artillery, Support Bridge etc.. gets your to 16,000-20,000 troops for a Division.

$300 million for an Armored Brigade Combat team is good value, a Stryker or Infantry Brigade would probably been even less.


I copied it wrong. As corrected above, an ACB is $3160M, a Stryker brigade is $3060M. The 16,330 includes all the indirect people, like Human Resources and such. Remember, 3/4 of everyone is an "indirect personnel".
 
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LyleLanley
Posts: 483
Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2019 9:33 pm

Re: Operational cost of various military units

Fri May 28, 2021 5:18 am

Just throwing something out there, but are fighter squadron’s Mx functions under the FS or is there a separate Mx group? Reason I ask is that could be the reason behind the manpower disparity between C-5 squadron (just aviators) and F-35 squadron (aviators + Mx)
 
ThePointblank
Posts: 3829
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:39 pm

Re: Operational cost of various military units

Fri May 28, 2021 8:25 am

If you want an idea of how much an aircraft cost to operate, look at the US DoD's reimbursement rate:

https://comptroller.defense.gov/Portals ... 20_b_c.pdf

The reimbursement rate covers maintenance and fuel usage per hour, which should give you an idea of how much the US DoD thinks it costs to operate certain aircraft, sans labour costs.

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