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The “Come Into Force” contract will then become the basis for the Effective Contract after all agreements between Indonesia and France are reached and Indonesia has paid an advance for the purchase of 36 Rafales .
Meanwhile, until now Indonesia and France have not reached agreement points for Trade Returns, Local Content and/or Offsets (IDKLO) in terms of the planned purchase of 36 Rafale .
art wrote:“Come Into Force” contract signed is not a sales contract.The “Come Into Force” contract will then become the basis for the Effective Contract after all agreements between Indonesia and France are reached and Indonesia has paid an advance for the purchase of 36 Rafales .
Meanwhile, until now Indonesia and France have not reached agreement points for Trade Returns, Local Content and/or Offsets (IDKLO) in terms of the planned purchase of 36 Rafale .
Leovinus wrote:art wrote:“Come Into Force” contract signed is not a sales contract.The “Come Into Force” contract will then become the basis for the Effective Contract after all agreements between Indonesia and France are reached and Indonesia has paid an advance for the purchase of 36 Rafales .
Meanwhile, until now Indonesia and France have not reached agreement points for Trade Returns, Local Content and/or Offsets (IDKLO) in terms of the planned purchase of 36 Rafale .
I should have specified more clearly that the contract is of a preliminary nature, my apologies. You're entirely right and thanks for quoting and highlighting that bit.
My question still kind of stands though. Why the interest in the Rafale all of a sudden? What changed?
art wrote:Leovinus wrote:art wrote:“Come Into Force” contract signed is not a sales contract.
I should have specified more clearly that the contract is of a preliminary nature, my apologies. You're entirely right and thanks for quoting and highlighting that bit.
My question still kind of stands though. Why the interest in the Rafale all of a sudden? What changed?
Indonesia is splashing out at the moment. Just signed for 6 FREMM frigates @ about $500 million each. I wonder if on this fighter deal they think they might get a loan from French banks underwritten by French government?
Leovinus wrote:art wrote:Leovinus wrote:
I should have specified more clearly that the contract is of a preliminary nature, my apologies. You're entirely right and thanks for quoting and highlighting that bit.
My question still kind of stands though. Why the interest in the Rafale all of a sudden? What changed?
Indonesia is splashing out at the moment. Just signed for 6 FREMM frigates @ about $500 million each. I wonder if on this fighter deal they think they might get a loan from French banks underwritten by French government?
Yea, so I read. I had the same reaction hehe
I would assume there are very favourable funding deals being negotiated. Possibly lucrative offsets for Indonesian industry?
art wrote:That will be quite the upgrade! If Indonesia and Australia continue to play nice, the two of them, along with Singapore, will be a formidable presence in that area of Asia.Indonesia is splashing out at the moment. Just signed for 6 FREMM frigates @ about $500 million each.
Indonesia selects FREMM design for frigate programme but questions remain over funding
art wrote:Indonesia seems to go shopping without taking a wallet along.
johns624 wrote:Let’s be realistic though, Indonesia is geographically about the size of west and central Europe combined. When you consider this, 36 jets and a few frigates, no matter how good their individual capabilities are, hardly make for a powerhouse.art wrote:That will be quite the upgrade! If Indonesia and Australia continue to play nice, the two of them, along with Singapore, will be a formidable presence in that area of Asia.Indonesia is splashing out at the moment. Just signed for 6 FREMM frigates @ about $500 million each.
petertenthije wrote:I know, that's why you have alliances. When you add the Indonesia with Australia and Singapore, you have a decent sized fleet that can be several places at once. When you add in Japan and India, China can be contained, with a "little" help from the USN.johns624 wrote:Let’s be realistic though, Indonesia is geographically about the size of west and central Europe combined. When you consider this, 36 jets and a few frigates, no matter how good their individual capabilities are, hardly make for a powerhouse.art wrote:That will be quite the upgrade! If Indonesia and Australia continue to play nice, the two of them, along with Singapore, will be a formidable presence in that area of Asia.Indonesia is splashing out at the moment. Just signed for 6 FREMM frigates @ about $500 million each.
Leovinus wrote:No.is Indonesia a dependable partner
Leovinus wrote:Yes.of sufficient strategic value.
art wrote:What's next - KF-21? Probably not. They reneged on partnership payments for that.
Devilfish wrote:art wrote:What's next - KF-21? Probably not. They reneged on partnership payments for that.
Maybe to reserve those funds as preliminary payment for a potential Rafale order
Devilfish wrote:After all, your linked article on the KF-21 in the other thread did say this.....
Quote:
While an official from the Defense Acquisition Program Administration (DAPA), which is responsible for domestic weapons development and oversaw the KF-21 project, said that the dismantling was part of a 'planned phase in the ground test process,' others are not buying that explanation."
Leovinus wrote:I wonder what changed to make the Rafale pick up steam? It's seen International sales trickle in mainly from the 2010s onward as far as I can make out from a cursory wikipedia read through.
Ohm wrote:Leovinus wrote:I wonder what changed to make the Rafale pick up steam? It's seen International sales trickle in mainly from the 2010s onward as far as I can make out from a cursory wikipedia read through.
Hello,
There are several standard of Rafale (F1 in 2001, F2 in 2006, F3 in 2012, F3-R in 2018 and F4 in 2023)
Since 2012 and F3 standard, Rafale is a really good mature aircraft
It has been the first European fighter aircraft equipped with an AESA radar, it has lot of armament. French Air Force and French Naval Aviation appreciate very much the plane which is very reliable.
Serbia’s Air Force is considering buying Rafale fighters from France and has notified the country’s president, Defense Minister Nebojsa Stefanovic said on December 28.
Earlier this month, Serbian President Aleksandar Vucic announced a 500 million euro ($566 million) increase in the country’s 1.1 billion euro defense budget in 2022 for additional equipment and weapons.
“Modernizing the Serbian fighter jet fleet is a costly endeavor that needs to be considered strategically. The air force told the President that they are currently more inclined to buy the French-made Rafale. But after we are done with a full analysis, let’s see what the army chooses,” Stefanovic told the Radio Television of Serbia.
LHAM wrote:^^^
Which Pakistani fighters come even close to the capabilities of Rafale?
I gather you are generally upset with a non Congress party run India but finding fault in absolutely anything is not very smart.
Especially considering that it was the Congress party that selected the Rafale.
In other news Serbia is thinking of choosing Rafale as its future fighter after a very long period of operating Russian jets!Serbia’s Air Force is considering buying Rafale fighters from France and has notified the country’s president, Defense Minister Nebojsa Stefanovic said on December 28.
Earlier this month, Serbian President Aleksandar Vucic announced a 500 million euro ($566 million) increase in the country’s 1.1 billion euro defense budget in 2022 for additional equipment and weapons.
“Modernizing the Serbian fighter jet fleet is a costly endeavor that needs to be considered strategically. The air force told the President that they are currently more inclined to buy the French-made Rafale. But after we are done with a full analysis, let’s see what the army chooses,” Stefanovic told the Radio Television of Serbia.
More info: https://eurasiantimes.com/rafales-bumper-sales-serbia-says-planning-dassault-fighter-jets/
mercure1 wrote:After years of negotiations and the signing for 11 Su-35 Flanker E in 2016, Indonesia has given up the acquisition of Russian aircraft in favor of a final competition between the Boeing F-15 EX and the Rafale by Dassault Aviation.
Despite the signing of a military cooperation agreement between the French Armed Forces and Indonesian, it has been noted that American aircraft has gained an advantage thanks to Boeing ability to deliver by 2027, while Dassault's assembly lines are constrained.
https://air-cosmos.com/article/lindonsi ... 15ex-25739
https://air-cosmos.com/article/lindonsi ... 15ex-25739
kitplane01 wrote:mercure1 wrote:After years of negotiations and the signing for 11 Su-35 Flanker E in 2016, Indonesia has given up the acquisition of Russian aircraft in favor of a final competition between the Boeing F-15 EX and the Rafale by Dassault Aviation.
Despite the signing of a military cooperation agreement between the French Armed Forces and Indonesian, it has been noted that American aircraft has gained an advantage thanks to Boeing ability to deliver by 2027, while Dassault's assembly lines are constrained.
https://air-cosmos.com/article/lindonsi ... 15ex-25739
https://air-cosmos.com/article/lindonsi ... 15ex-25739
Important quote (translated)
"In addition to these constraints, the Su-35 has also stood out for its difficulties since the signing of the partnership in 2016. Only 5 aircraft have officially been delivered to Egypt, while 22 aircraft should have already joined the Egyptian fleet in 2020, part other planes produced for the country are still grounded in the parking lot of the Sukhoi assembly plant near Moscow. Worse, in the exercises opposing the Su-35 to the Rafale in Egypt, the Rafale would have succeeded in jamming the PESA radar of the Sukhoi to the point of turning it off, forcing the Su-35 to land ..."
What the heck! United Aircraft cannot make 22 planes? Their radar is *that* weak? Anyone have a clue what's going on?
SeamanBeaumont wrote:kitplane01 wrote:mercure1 wrote:After years of negotiations and the signing for 11 Su-35 Flanker E in 2016, Indonesia has given up the acquisition of Russian aircraft in favor of a final competition between the Boeing F-15 EX and the Rafale by Dassault Aviation.
Despite the signing of a military cooperation agreement between the French Armed Forces and Indonesian, it has been noted that American aircraft has gained an advantage thanks to Boeing ability to deliver by 2027, while Dassault's assembly lines are constrained.
https://air-cosmos.com/article/lindonsi ... 15ex-25739
https://air-cosmos.com/article/lindonsi ... 15ex-25739
Important quote (translated)
"In addition to these constraints, the Su-35 has also stood out for its difficulties since the signing of the partnership in 2016. Only 5 aircraft have officially been delivered to Egypt, while 22 aircraft should have already joined the Egyptian fleet in 2020, part other planes produced for the country are still grounded in the parking lot of the Sukhoi assembly plant near Moscow. Worse, in the exercises opposing the Su-35 to the Rafale in Egypt, the Rafale would have succeeded in jamming the PESA radar of the Sukhoi to the point of turning it off, forcing the Su-35 to land ..."
What the heck! United Aircraft cannot make 22 planes? Their radar is *that* weak? Anyone have a clue what's going on?
It's air&cosmos dude. That you have to translate it into English from french should tell you how bias it is.
SeamanBeaumont wrote:kitplane01 wrote:mercure1 wrote:After years of negotiations and the signing for 11 Su-35 Flanker E in 2016, Indonesia has given up the acquisition of Russian aircraft in favor of a final competition between the Boeing F-15 EX and the Rafale by Dassault Aviation.
Despite the signing of a military cooperation agreement between the French Armed Forces and Indonesian, it has been noted that American aircraft has gained an advantage thanks to Boeing ability to deliver by 2027, while Dassault's assembly lines are constrained.
https://air-cosmos.com/article/lindonsi ... 15ex-25739
https://air-cosmos.com/article/lindonsi ... 15ex-25739
Important quote (translated)
"In addition to these constraints, the Su-35 has also stood out for its difficulties since the signing of the partnership in 2016. Only 5 aircraft have officially been delivered to Egypt, while 22 aircraft should have already joined the Egyptian fleet in 2020, part other planes produced for the country are still grounded in the parking lot of the Sukhoi assembly plant near Moscow. Worse, in the exercises opposing the Su-35 to the Rafale in Egypt, the Rafale would have succeeded in jamming the PESA radar of the Sukhoi to the point of turning it off, forcing the Su-35 to land ..."
What the heck! United Aircraft cannot make 22 planes? Their radar is *that* weak? Anyone have a clue what's going on?
It's air&cosmos dude. That you have to translate it into English from french should tell you how bias it is.
kitplane01 wrote:LHAM wrote:^^^
Which Pakistani fighters come even close to the capabilities of Rafale?
I gather you are generally upset with a non Congress party run India but finding fault in absolutely anything is not very smart.
Especially considering that it was the Congress party that selected the Rafale.
In other news Serbia is thinking of choosing Rafale as its future fighter after a very long period of operating Russian jets!Serbia’s Air Force is considering buying Rafale fighters from France and has notified the country’s president, Defense Minister Nebojsa Stefanovic said on December 28.
Earlier this month, Serbian President Aleksandar Vucic announced a 500 million euro ($566 million) increase in the country’s 1.1 billion euro defense budget in 2022 for additional equipment and weapons.
“Modernizing the Serbian fighter jet fleet is a costly endeavor that needs to be considered strategically. The air force told the President that they are currently more inclined to buy the French-made Rafale. But after we are done with a full analysis, let’s see what the army chooses,” Stefanovic told the Radio Television of Serbia.
More info: https://eurasiantimes.com/rafales-bumper-sales-serbia-says-planning-dassault-fighter-jets/
That budget would be about what Ireland spends, or 1/3 of what New Zealand spends. You cannot operate Rafale's on that budget.
LHAM wrote:kitplane01 wrote:LHAM wrote:^^^
Which Pakistani fighters come even close to the capabilities of Rafale?
I gather you are generally upset with a non Congress party run India but finding fault in absolutely anything is not very smart.
Especially considering that it was the Congress party that selected the Rafale.
In other news Serbia is thinking of choosing Rafale as its future fighter after a very long period of operating Russian jets!
More info: https://eurasiantimes.com/rafales-bumper-sales-serbia-says-planning-dassault-fighter-jets/
That budget would be about what Ireland spends, or 1/3 of what New Zealand spends. You cannot operate Rafale's on that budget.
Croatia's defense budget is similar, possibly even lower than Serbia's but they acquired 12 used Rafales of the F3-R variety.
Serbia can go for a similar deal or they can opt to take older batches from the French Air Force and pay less than the Croats.
kitplane01 wrote:SeamanBeaumont wrote:kitplane01 wrote:
Important quote (translated)
"In addition to these constraints, the Su-35 has also stood out for its difficulties since the signing of the partnership in 2016. Only 5 aircraft have officially been delivered to Egypt, while 22 aircraft should have already joined the Egyptian fleet in 2020, part other planes produced for the country are still grounded in the parking lot of the Sukhoi assembly plant near Moscow. Worse, in the exercises opposing the Su-35 to the Rafale in Egypt, the Rafale would have succeeded in jamming the PESA radar of the Sukhoi to the point of turning it off, forcing the Su-35 to land ..."
What the heck! United Aircraft cannot make 22 planes? Their radar is *that* weak? Anyone have a clue what's going on?
It's air&cosmos dude. That you have to translate it into English from french should tell you how bias it is.
OK. So *did* Russia deliver 22 aircraft? Because if they delivered only 5 but promised 22 ....
Below are two sites that seem to confirm the delivery of 5 and a contract for 24.
"The Russian Khabarovsk Krai region’s official media agency stated that the most important achievement of the military factory in the region was delivering the five Su-35 fighter jets to Egypt, out of the 24 jets that were agreed upon, despite the COVID-19 pandemic."
https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/20 ... -deal.html and https://asiatimes.com/2020/08/egypt-ope ... -purchase/
Francoflier wrote:SeamanBeaumont wrote:kitplane01 wrote:
Important quote (translated)
"In addition to these constraints, the Su-35 has also stood out for its difficulties since the signing of the partnership in 2016. Only 5 aircraft have officially been delivered to Egypt, while 22 aircraft should have already joined the Egyptian fleet in 2020, part other planes produced for the country are still grounded in the parking lot of the Sukhoi assembly plant near Moscow. Worse, in the exercises opposing the Su-35 to the Rafale in Egypt, the Rafale would have succeeded in jamming the PESA radar of the Sukhoi to the point of turning it off, forcing the Su-35 to land ..."
What the heck! United Aircraft cannot make 22 planes? Their radar is *that* weak? Anyone have a clue what's going on?
It's air&cosmos dude. That you have to translate it into English from french should tell you how bias it is.
I don't know about bias but doubts surrounding the capabilities and potential vulnerabilities of the Irbis-E radar fitted to the Su-35 have been shared by much more than the French...
The Su-35 is the only fighter of its generation not fitted with an AESA radar and many suspect its design makes it rather prone to jamming by more advanced hardware. Also, the initial report of the jamming events in the Egyptian exercises actually originated from outlets in the Middle East, not France.
kitplane01 wrote:SeamanBeaumont wrote:kitplane01 wrote:
Important quote (translated)
"In addition to these constraints, the Su-35 has also stood out for its difficulties since the signing of the partnership in 2016. Only 5 aircraft have officially been delivered to Egypt, while 22 aircraft should have already joined the Egyptian fleet in 2020, part other planes produced for the country are still grounded in the parking lot of the Sukhoi assembly plant near Moscow. Worse, in the exercises opposing the Su-35 to the Rafale in Egypt, the Rafale would have succeeded in jamming the PESA radar of the Sukhoi to the point of turning it off, forcing the Su-35 to land ..."
What the heck! United Aircraft cannot make 22 planes? Their radar is *that* weak? Anyone have a clue what's going on?
It's air&cosmos dude. That you have to translate it into English from french should tell you how bias it is.
OK. So *did* Russia deliver 22 aircraft? Because if they delivered only 5 but promised 22 ....
Below are two sites that seem to confirm the delivery of 5 and a contract for 24.
"The Russian Khabarovsk Krai region’s official media agency stated that the most important achievement of the military factory in the region was delivering the five Su-35 fighter jets to Egypt, out of the 24 jets that were agreed upon, despite the COVID-19 pandemic."
https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/20 ... -deal.html and https://asiatimes.com/2020/08/egypt-ope ... -purchase/
ThePointblank wrote:kitplane01 wrote:SeamanBeaumont wrote:It's air&cosmos dude. That you have to translate it into English from french should tell you how bias it is.
OK. So *did* Russia deliver 22 aircraft? Because if they delivered only 5 but promised 22 ....
Below are two sites that seem to confirm the delivery of 5 and a contract for 24.
"The Russian Khabarovsk Krai region’s official media agency stated that the most important achievement of the military factory in the region was delivering the five Su-35 fighter jets to Egypt, out of the 24 jets that were agreed upon, despite the COVID-19 pandemic."
https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/20 ... -deal.html and https://asiatimes.com/2020/08/egypt-ope ... -purchase/
The alternative suggestion is that the Russians did make 22 Su-35's for Egypt, but Egypt rejected all but 5 of them due to quality control issues.
Ain't the first time this has happened; there was a massive brew up between Russia and Algeria when Algeria rejected delivery of a fleet of MiG-29's over quality issues, and also returned the airframes already delivered.
There was also rumours that the Venezuelan fleet of Su-30MK2's are from a batch of of aircraft that were originally rejected by the Chinese due to quality control issues, and the Russians just reworked the aircraft and sold them on to the Venezuelans.
kitplane01 wrote:What the heck is a “alternative suggestion “? If this is true, say so. Maybe even give a URL. But everything I’ve read is that they failed to produce the airplanes.
SeamanBeaumont wrote:Air&cosmos wouldn't have enough comprehension of other platforms to make a valid comparison. As for the radar, I'd probably take a PESA twice the size over a much smaller AESA given how poor the software is both platforms is going to be.
“The Russian defense industry lost three large orders for its Su-35 fighters at once due to the failure to replace scanned array radar and avionics, which were previously imported from a number of European countries and Israel,” sources told Defense Blog.
art wrote:If I were South Korea I would be livid if money changed hands while Indonesia was in default of payments re: KF-X development (if Indonesia is still behind on payments).
mxaxai wrote:art wrote:If I were South Korea I would be livid if money changed hands while Indonesia was in default of payments re: KF-X development (if Indonesia is still behind on payments).
While I understand the sentiment, the Rafales are probably more attractive short-term to Indonesia because Dassault / France can likely offer very short delivery times while KF-X will be in development for several more years.
art wrote:Not my point. Indonesia has been late or has not paid according to its contract with South Korea. I am confident that the excuse would have been lack of funds.
mxaxai wrote:art wrote:Not my point. Indonesia has been late or has not paid according to its contract with South Korea. I am confident that the excuse would have been lack of funds.
Perhaps, but there are lots of different funds. Some are allocated to day-to-day operations, some are to be used for short term acquistions and some for long term investments and R&D. Governments often say "there's no money for X" but will happily fund Y and Z.
jouy31 wrote:Confirmation of the deal for six Rafale, within a larger order for 42.
https://www.capital.fr/entreprises-marc ... al-1428063
https://www.brecorder.com/news/40153446 ... -warplanes
https://www.globenewswire.com/news-rele ... afale.html
LHAM wrote:The value of the Indonesian contract for the 42 aircraft stands at $8,1 billion.
Presumably it includes weapons, training, tooling and parts.
hhttps://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-02-10/dassault-extends-rafale-success-with-indonesia-deal-for-42-jets
art wrote:Indonesia shopping/window shopping spree to continue? The estimated total cost of this F-15 package is $13.9 billion.
https://www.dsca.mil/press-media/major- ... d-aircraft