Indonesia Dassault Rafale News and Discussion Thread

Leovinus · Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:42 am

According to an Indonesian news source the nation has contracted Dassault for 36 Rafales. Wether or not they are surplus French jets or new aircraft, and what sort of support package is to go along with it, isn't revealed in the article however.

Article, has a translation button for English:
https://www.airspace-review.com/2021/06/10/kabar-baik-kemhan-dan-dassault-sudah-tandatangani-kontrak-awal-36-rafale/

Dassault seems to be a on a roll lately. The Rafale has picked up a lot of steam all of a sudden with Greece and Croatia making orders relatively recently. Wether or not they're new-built or not it will assumably benefit France through support contracts at the very least.

I wonder what changed to make the Rafale pick up steam? It's seen International sales trickle in mainly from the 2010s onward as far as I can make out from a cursory wikipedia read through.

art · Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:27 pm

“Come Into Force” contract signed is not a sales contract.

The “Come Into Force” contract will then become the basis for the Effective Contract after all agreements between Indonesia and France are reached and Indonesia has paid an advance for the purchase of 36 Rafales .

Meanwhile, until now Indonesia and France have not reached agreement points for Trade Returns, Local Content and/or Offsets (IDKLO) in terms of the planned purchase of 36 Rafale .

Leovinus · Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:22 pm

art wrote:
“Come Into Force” contract signed is not a sales contract.

The “Come Into Force” contract will then become the basis for the Effective Contract after all agreements between Indonesia and France are reached and Indonesia has paid an advance for the purchase of 36 Rafales .

Meanwhile, until now Indonesia and France have not reached agreement points for Trade Returns, Local Content and/or Offsets (IDKLO) in terms of the planned purchase of 36 Rafale .

I should have specified more clearly that the contract is of a preliminary nature, my apologies. You're entirely right and thanks for quoting and highlighting that bit.

My question still kind of stands though. Why the interest in the Rafale all of a sudden? What changed?

art · Fri Jun 11, 2021 3:55 pm

Leovinus wrote:
art wrote:
“Come Into Force” contract signed is not a sales contract.

The “Come Into Force” contract will then become the basis for the Effective Contract after all agreements between Indonesia and France are reached and Indonesia has paid an advance for the purchase of 36 Rafales .

Meanwhile, until now Indonesia and France have not reached agreement points for Trade Returns, Local Content and/or Offsets (IDKLO) in terms of the planned purchase of 36 Rafale .

I should have specified more clearly that the contract is of a preliminary nature, my apologies. You're entirely right and thanks for quoting and highlighting that bit.

My question still kind of stands though. Why the interest in the Rafale all of a sudden? What changed?

Indonesia is splashing out at the moment. Just signed for 6 FREMM frigates @ about $500 million each. I wonder if on this fighter deal they think they might get a loan from French banks underwritten by French government?

Leovinus · Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:00 pm

art wrote:
Leovinus wrote:
art wrote:
“Come Into Force” contract signed is not a sales contract.

I should have specified more clearly that the contract is of a preliminary nature, my apologies. You're entirely right and thanks for quoting and highlighting that bit.

My question still kind of stands though. Why the interest in the Rafale all of a sudden? What changed?

Indonesia is splashing out at the moment. Just signed for 6 FREMM frigates @ about $500 million each. I wonder if on this fighter deal they think they might get a loan from French banks underwritten by French government?

Yea, so I read. I had the same reaction hehe

I would assume there are very favourable funding deals being negotiated. Possibly lucrative offsets for Indonesian industry?

SteelChair · Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:02 pm

Leovinus wrote:
art wrote:
Leovinus wrote:

I should have specified more clearly that the contract is of a preliminary nature, my apologies. You're entirely right and thanks for quoting and highlighting that bit.

My question still kind of stands though. Why the interest in the Rafale all of a sudden? What changed?

Indonesia is splashing out at the moment. Just signed for 6 FREMM frigates @ about $500 million each. I wonder if on this fighter deal they think they might get a loan from French banks underwritten by French government?

Yea, so I read. I had the same reaction hehe

I would assume there are very favourable funding deals being negotiated. Possibly lucrative offsets for Indonesian industry?

Essentially legalized bribery.

johns624 · Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:47 pm

art wrote:
Indonesia is splashing out at the moment. Just signed for 6 FREMM frigates @ about $500 million each.

That will be quite the upgrade! If Indonesia and Australia continue to play nice, the two of them, along with Singapore, will be a formidable presence in that area of Asia.

art · Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:57 pm

Fom Janes:

Indonesia selects FREMM design for frigate programme but questions remain over funding

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... er-funding

Sounds like that deal is still to be finalised, too.

Indonesia seems to go shopping without taking a wallet along.

IIRC Indonesia has recently shown interest in Eurofighters from Austria, F-15, F-18, now Rafale. What's next - KF-21? Probably not. They reneged on partnership payments for that.

mxaxai · Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:10 pm

I think both orders should be added to the long list of "Weapons Indonesia wants but cannot fund". They've been talking about acquiring Rafales for quite some time.
Other items on the list:
- 8 F-15EX
- 2 A400M
- 8 V-22 Osprey
- 3 A330MRTT
- 6 MQ-1
- 15 used T1 Eurofighters
- an unknown number of KF-21
- 11 Su-35
- 8 Mogami-class frigates

wingman · Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:38 pm

art wrote:
Indonesia seems to go shopping without taking a wallet along.

I do it all the time on Zillow and Porsche.com. Fantasy shopping is fun.

Leovinus · Sat Jun 12, 2021 7:52 am

It's a political game for arms selling nations. I don't approve of it, but there we are SteelChair.

As it is a political game, one wonders what Indonesia can offer in return. Certainly its in the national interest in keeping production lines going. But is Indonesia a dependable partner of sufficient strategic value in the region to take their window shopping seriously? I know far too little about the Asia regions geopolitical intricacies than I probably should.

petertenthije · Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:14 pm

johns624 wrote:
art wrote:
Indonesia is splashing out at the moment. Just signed for 6 FREMM frigates @ about $500 million each.
That will be quite the upgrade! If Indonesia and Australia continue to play nice, the two of them, along with Singapore, will be a formidable presence in that area of Asia.

Let’s be realistic though, Indonesia is geographically about the size of west and central Europe combined. When you consider this, 36 jets and a few frigates, no matter how good their individual capabilities are, hardly make for a powerhouse.

johns624 · Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:19 pm

petertenthije wrote:
johns624 wrote:
art wrote:
Indonesia is splashing out at the moment. Just signed for 6 FREMM frigates @ about $500 million each.
That will be quite the upgrade! If Indonesia and Australia continue to play nice, the two of them, along with Singapore, will be a formidable presence in that area of Asia.
Let’s be realistic though, Indonesia is geographically about the size of west and central Europe combined. When you consider this, 36 jets and a few frigates, no matter how good their individual capabilities are, hardly make for a powerhouse.

I know, that's why you have alliances. When you add the Indonesia with Australia and Singapore, you have a decent sized fleet that can be several places at once. When you add in Japan and India, China can be contained, with a "little" help from the USN.

mxaxai · Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:54 pm

Leovinus wrote:
is Indonesia a dependable partner

No.

Leovinus wrote:
of sufficient strategic value.

Yes.

Indonesia is still a source of Oil and many other natural resources. Any ships from Europe to East Asia must pass through or near Indonesian waters; especially traffic to and from Singapore. Indonesia is the country with the largest muslim population and also the only ASEAN member of G20.

Devilfish · Sat Jun 12, 2021 4:45 pm

art wrote:
What's next - KF-21? Probably not. They reneged on partnership payments for that.

Maybe to reserve those funds as preliminary payment for a potential Rafale order :?:

After all, your linked article on the KF-21 in the other thread did say this.....

Quote:
"The view of various experts is that the removal of crucial components of the plane, such as its landing gear, refueling and key piloting systems, goes above and beyond what is necessary before tests are conducted on the jet.

'Even if [the dismantling] is in preparation for a ground test, a wholesale disassembly is difficult to comprehend,' said a retired Air Force general who spoke on the condition of anonymity.

'Normally, the unveiling of a prototype takes place before the final ground test and test flight,' he added, suggesting that the prototype was not, in fact, flight-worthy before its unveiling.

While an official from the Defense Acquisition Program Administration (DAPA), which is responsible for domestic weapons development and oversaw the KF-21 project, said that the dismantling was part of a 'planned phase in the ground test process,' others are not buying that explanation."

texl1649 · Sat Jun 12, 2021 6:54 pm

Indonesia is sort of the QR of defense acquisitions. Take what they issue a PR/initial agreement with a grain of salt.

art · Sat Jun 12, 2021 7:22 pm

Devilfish wrote:
art wrote:
What's next - KF-21? Probably not. They reneged on partnership payments for that.

Maybe to reserve those funds as preliminary payment for a potential Rafale order

Could be.

Devilfish wrote:
After all, your linked article on the KF-21 in the other thread did say this.....

Quote:
While an official from the Defense Acquisition Program Administration (DAPA), which is responsible for domestic weapons development and oversaw the KF-21 project, said that the dismantling was part of a 'planned phase in the ground test process,' others are not buying that explanation."

Still a mystery to me why they are dismantling the thing... unless they did a Boeing 787 for the rollout (stuck it together with incorrect or missing parts for the rollout) and are correcting it.

Ohm · Sun Jun 13, 2021 5:17 pm

Leovinus wrote:
I wonder what changed to make the Rafale pick up steam? It's seen International sales trickle in mainly from the 2010s onward as far as I can make out from a cursory wikipedia read through.

Hello,
There are several standard of Rafale (F1 in 2001, F2 in 2006, F3 in 2012, F3-R in 2018 and F4 in 2023)

Since 2012 and F3 standard, Rafale is a really good mature aircraft
It has been the first European fighter aircraft equipped with an AESA radar, it has lot of armament. French Air Force and French Naval Aviation appreciate very much the plane which is very reliable.

subramak1 · Tue Oct 26, 2021 6:18 pm

Ohm wrote:
Leovinus wrote:
I wonder what changed to make the Rafale pick up steam? It's seen International sales trickle in mainly from the 2010s onward as far as I can make out from a cursory wikipedia read through.

Hello,
There are several standard of Rafale (F1 in 2001, F2 in 2006, F3 in 2012, F3-R in 2018 and F4 in 2023)

Since 2012 and F3 standard, Rafale is a really good mature aircraft
It has been the first European fighter aircraft equipped with an AESA radar, it has lot of armament. French Air Force and French Naval Aviation appreciate very much the plane which is very reliable.

So does Indian Air Force.

Best, Subramanian

mercure1 · Tue Dec 28, 2021 11:59 pm

After years of negotiations and the signing for 11 Su-35 Flanker E in 2016, Indonesia has given up the acquisition of Russian aircraft in favor of a final competition between the Boeing F-15 EX and the Rafale by Dassault Aviation.

Despite the signing of a military cooperation agreement between the French Armed Forces and Indonesian, it has been noted that American aircraft has gained an advantage thanks to Boeing ability to deliver by 2027, while Dassault's assembly lines are constrained.

https://air-cosmos.com/article/lindonsi ... 15ex-25739
https://air-cosmos.com/article/lindonsi ... 15ex-25739

LHAM · Wed Dec 29, 2021 8:28 am

^^^
Which Pakistani fighters come even close to the capabilities of Rafale?
I gather you are generally upset with a non Congress party run India but finding fault in absolutely anything is not very smart.
Especially considering that it was the Congress party that selected the Rafale.

In other news Serbia is thinking of choosing Rafale as its future fighter after a very long period of operating Russian jets!

Serbia’s Air Force is considering buying Rafale fighters from France and has notified the country’s president, Defense Minister Nebojsa Stefanovic said on December 28.

Earlier this month, Serbian President Aleksandar Vucic announced a 500 million euro ($566 million) increase in the country’s 1.1 billion euro defense budget in 2022 for additional equipment and weapons.

“Modernizing the Serbian fighter jet fleet is a costly endeavor that needs to be considered strategically. The air force told the President that they are currently more inclined to buy the French-made Rafale. But after we are done with a full analysis, let’s see what the army chooses,” Stefanovic told the Radio Television of Serbia.

More info: https://eurasiantimes.com/rafales-bumper-sales-serbia-says-planning-dassault-fighter-jets/

kitplane01 · Thu Dec 30, 2021 5:53 am

LHAM wrote:
^^^
Which Pakistani fighters come even close to the capabilities of Rafale?
I gather you are generally upset with a non Congress party run India but finding fault in absolutely anything is not very smart.
Especially considering that it was the Congress party that selected the Rafale.

In other news Serbia is thinking of choosing Rafale as its future fighter after a very long period of operating Russian jets!

Serbia’s Air Force is considering buying Rafale fighters from France and has notified the country’s president, Defense Minister Nebojsa Stefanovic said on December 28.

Earlier this month, Serbian President Aleksandar Vucic announced a 500 million euro ($566 million) increase in the country’s 1.1 billion euro defense budget in 2022 for additional equipment and weapons.

“Modernizing the Serbian fighter jet fleet is a costly endeavor that needs to be considered strategically. The air force told the President that they are currently more inclined to buy the French-made Rafale. But after we are done with a full analysis, let’s see what the army chooses,” Stefanovic told the Radio Television of Serbia.

More info: https://eurasiantimes.com/rafales-bumper-sales-serbia-says-planning-dassault-fighter-jets/

That budget would be about what Ireland spends, or 1/3 of what New Zealand spends. You cannot operate Rafale's on that budget.

kitplane01 · Thu Dec 30, 2021 5:59 am

mercure1 wrote:
After years of negotiations and the signing for 11 Su-35 Flanker E in 2016, Indonesia has given up the acquisition of Russian aircraft in favor of a final competition between the Boeing F-15 EX and the Rafale by Dassault Aviation.

Despite the signing of a military cooperation agreement between the French Armed Forces and Indonesian, it has been noted that American aircraft has gained an advantage thanks to Boeing ability to deliver by 2027, while Dassault's assembly lines are constrained.

https://air-cosmos.com/article/lindonsi ... 15ex-25739
https://air-cosmos.com/article/lindonsi ... 15ex-25739

Important quote (translated)
"In addition to these constraints, the Su-35 has also stood out for its difficulties since the signing of the partnership in 2016. Only 5 aircraft have officially been delivered to Egypt, while 22 aircraft should have already joined the Egyptian fleet in 2020, part other planes produced for the country are still grounded in the parking lot of the Sukhoi assembly plant near Moscow. Worse, in the exercises opposing the Su-35 to the Rafale in Egypt, the Rafale would have succeeded in jamming the PESA radar of the Sukhoi to the point of turning it off, forcing the Su-35 to land ..."

What the heck! United Aircraft cannot make 22 planes? Their radar is *that* weak? Anyone have a clue what's going on?

SeamanBeaumont · Thu Dec 30, 2021 6:36 am

kitplane01 wrote:
mercure1 wrote:
After years of negotiations and the signing for 11 Su-35 Flanker E in 2016, Indonesia has given up the acquisition of Russian aircraft in favor of a final competition between the Boeing F-15 EX and the Rafale by Dassault Aviation.

Despite the signing of a military cooperation agreement between the French Armed Forces and Indonesian, it has been noted that American aircraft has gained an advantage thanks to Boeing ability to deliver by 2027, while Dassault's assembly lines are constrained.

https://air-cosmos.com/article/lindonsi ... 15ex-25739
https://air-cosmos.com/article/lindonsi ... 15ex-25739

Important quote (translated)
"In addition to these constraints, the Su-35 has also stood out for its difficulties since the signing of the partnership in 2016. Only 5 aircraft have officially been delivered to Egypt, while 22 aircraft should have already joined the Egyptian fleet in 2020, part other planes produced for the country are still grounded in the parking lot of the Sukhoi assembly plant near Moscow. Worse, in the exercises opposing the Su-35 to the Rafale in Egypt, the Rafale would have succeeded in jamming the PESA radar of the Sukhoi to the point of turning it off, forcing the Su-35 to land ..."

What the heck! United Aircraft cannot make 22 planes? Their radar is *that* weak? Anyone have a clue what's going on?

It's air&cosmos dude. That you have to translate it into English from french should tell you how bias it is.

Francoflier · Thu Dec 30, 2021 7:18 am

SeamanBeaumont wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:
mercure1 wrote:
After years of negotiations and the signing for 11 Su-35 Flanker E in 2016, Indonesia has given up the acquisition of Russian aircraft in favor of a final competition between the Boeing F-15 EX and the Rafale by Dassault Aviation.

Despite the signing of a military cooperation agreement between the French Armed Forces and Indonesian, it has been noted that American aircraft has gained an advantage thanks to Boeing ability to deliver by 2027, while Dassault's assembly lines are constrained.

https://air-cosmos.com/article/lindonsi ... 15ex-25739
https://air-cosmos.com/article/lindonsi ... 15ex-25739

Important quote (translated)
"In addition to these constraints, the Su-35 has also stood out for its difficulties since the signing of the partnership in 2016. Only 5 aircraft have officially been delivered to Egypt, while 22 aircraft should have already joined the Egyptian fleet in 2020, part other planes produced for the country are still grounded in the parking lot of the Sukhoi assembly plant near Moscow. Worse, in the exercises opposing the Su-35 to the Rafale in Egypt, the Rafale would have succeeded in jamming the PESA radar of the Sukhoi to the point of turning it off, forcing the Su-35 to land ..."

What the heck! United Aircraft cannot make 22 planes? Their radar is *that* weak? Anyone have a clue what's going on?

It's air&cosmos dude. That you have to translate it into English from french should tell you how bias it is.

I don't know about bias but doubts surrounding the capabilities and potential vulnerabilities of the Irbis-E radar fitted to the Su-35 have been shared by much more than the French...

The Su-35 is the only fighter of its generation not fitted with an AESA radar and many suspect its design makes it rather prone to jamming by more advanced hardware. Also, the initial report of the jamming events in the Egyptian exercises actually originated from outlets in the Middle East, not France.

kitplane01 · Thu Dec 30, 2021 7:23 am

SeamanBeaumont wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:
mercure1 wrote:
After years of negotiations and the signing for 11 Su-35 Flanker E in 2016, Indonesia has given up the acquisition of Russian aircraft in favor of a final competition between the Boeing F-15 EX and the Rafale by Dassault Aviation.

Despite the signing of a military cooperation agreement between the French Armed Forces and Indonesian, it has been noted that American aircraft has gained an advantage thanks to Boeing ability to deliver by 2027, while Dassault's assembly lines are constrained.

https://air-cosmos.com/article/lindonsi ... 15ex-25739
https://air-cosmos.com/article/lindonsi ... 15ex-25739

Important quote (translated)
"In addition to these constraints, the Su-35 has also stood out for its difficulties since the signing of the partnership in 2016. Only 5 aircraft have officially been delivered to Egypt, while 22 aircraft should have already joined the Egyptian fleet in 2020, part other planes produced for the country are still grounded in the parking lot of the Sukhoi assembly plant near Moscow. Worse, in the exercises opposing the Su-35 to the Rafale in Egypt, the Rafale would have succeeded in jamming the PESA radar of the Sukhoi to the point of turning it off, forcing the Su-35 to land ..."

What the heck! United Aircraft cannot make 22 planes? Their radar is *that* weak? Anyone have a clue what's going on?

It's air&cosmos dude. That you have to translate it into English from french should tell you how bias it is.

OK. So *did* Russia deliver 22 aircraft? Because if they delivered only 5 but promised 22 ....

Below are two sites that seem to confirm the delivery of 5 and a contract for 24.

"The Russian Khabarovsk Krai region’s official media agency stated that the most important achievement of the military factory in the region was delivering the five Su-35 fighter jets to Egypt, out of the 24 jets that were agreed upon, despite the COVID-19 pandemic."

https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/20 ... -deal.html and https://asiatimes.com/2020/08/egypt-ope ... -purchase/

LHAM · Thu Dec 30, 2021 10:26 am

kitplane01 wrote:
LHAM wrote:
^^^
Which Pakistani fighters come even close to the capabilities of Rafale?
I gather you are generally upset with a non Congress party run India but finding fault in absolutely anything is not very smart.
Especially considering that it was the Congress party that selected the Rafale.

In other news Serbia is thinking of choosing Rafale as its future fighter after a very long period of operating Russian jets!

Serbia’s Air Force is considering buying Rafale fighters from France and has notified the country’s president, Defense Minister Nebojsa Stefanovic said on December 28.

Earlier this month, Serbian President Aleksandar Vucic announced a 500 million euro ($566 million) increase in the country’s 1.1 billion euro defense budget in 2022 for additional equipment and weapons.

“Modernizing the Serbian fighter jet fleet is a costly endeavor that needs to be considered strategically. The air force told the President that they are currently more inclined to buy the French-made Rafale. But after we are done with a full analysis, let’s see what the army chooses,” Stefanovic told the Radio Television of Serbia.

More info: https://eurasiantimes.com/rafales-bumper-sales-serbia-says-planning-dassault-fighter-jets/

That budget would be about what Ireland spends, or 1/3 of what New Zealand spends. You cannot operate Rafale's on that budget.

Croatia's defense budget is similar, possibly even lower than Serbia's but they acquired 12 used Rafales of the F3-R variety.
Serbia can go for a similar deal or they can opt to take older batches from the French Air Force and pay less than the Croats.

kitplane01 · Thu Dec 30, 2021 9:38 pm

LHAM wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:
LHAM wrote:
^^^
Which Pakistani fighters come even close to the capabilities of Rafale?
I gather you are generally upset with a non Congress party run India but finding fault in absolutely anything is not very smart.
Especially considering that it was the Congress party that selected the Rafale.

In other news Serbia is thinking of choosing Rafale as its future fighter after a very long period of operating Russian jets!

More info: https://eurasiantimes.com/rafales-bumper-sales-serbia-says-planning-dassault-fighter-jets/

That budget would be about what Ireland spends, or 1/3 of what New Zealand spends. You cannot operate Rafale's on that budget.

Croatia's defense budget is similar, possibly even lower than Serbia's but they acquired 12 used Rafales of the F3-R variety.
Serbia can go for a similar deal or they can opt to take older batches from the French Air Force and pay less than the Croats.

That's totally interesting.

I wonder if Serbia is the smallest defense budget to operate a squadron of 4.5gen fighters. I also wonder if they really are able to operate the jets (i.e. get their pilots >130 hours in the air per year, have a budget for missiles and weapons, have a readiness rate > 50%, etc).

Anyone know the smallest defense budget to actually operate a 4.5gen jet squadron? Or anyone know how the Serbian jets are actually doing?

SeamanBeaumont · Sat Jan 01, 2022 1:24 am

kitplane01 wrote:
SeamanBeaumont wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:

Important quote (translated)
"In addition to these constraints, the Su-35 has also stood out for its difficulties since the signing of the partnership in 2016. Only 5 aircraft have officially been delivered to Egypt, while 22 aircraft should have already joined the Egyptian fleet in 2020, part other planes produced for the country are still grounded in the parking lot of the Sukhoi assembly plant near Moscow. Worse, in the exercises opposing the Su-35 to the Rafale in Egypt, the Rafale would have succeeded in jamming the PESA radar of the Sukhoi to the point of turning it off, forcing the Su-35 to land ..."

What the heck! United Aircraft cannot make 22 planes? Their radar is *that* weak? Anyone have a clue what's going on?

It's air&cosmos dude. That you have to translate it into English from french should tell you how bias it is.

OK. So *did* Russia deliver 22 aircraft? Because if they delivered only 5 but promised 22 ....

Below are two sites that seem to confirm the delivery of 5 and a contract for 24.

"The Russian Khabarovsk Krai region’s official media agency stated that the most important achievement of the military factory in the region was delivering the five Su-35 fighter jets to Egypt, out of the 24 jets that were agreed upon, despite the COVID-19 pandemic."

https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/20 ... -deal.html and https://asiatimes.com/2020/08/egypt-ope ... -purchase/

World has been messed up, that they are behind on deliveries isn't exactly damning. I'm still waiting on a few parts from Europe myself.

Perhaps they catch up and perhaps they don't but late deliveries isn't uncommon especially for Russian weapons that cost half of their western equivalents.

SeamanBeaumont · Sat Jan 01, 2022 1:26 am

Francoflier wrote:
SeamanBeaumont wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:

Important quote (translated)
"In addition to these constraints, the Su-35 has also stood out for its difficulties since the signing of the partnership in 2016. Only 5 aircraft have officially been delivered to Egypt, while 22 aircraft should have already joined the Egyptian fleet in 2020, part other planes produced for the country are still grounded in the parking lot of the Sukhoi assembly plant near Moscow. Worse, in the exercises opposing the Su-35 to the Rafale in Egypt, the Rafale would have succeeded in jamming the PESA radar of the Sukhoi to the point of turning it off, forcing the Su-35 to land ..."

What the heck! United Aircraft cannot make 22 planes? Their radar is *that* weak? Anyone have a clue what's going on?

It's air&cosmos dude. That you have to translate it into English from french should tell you how bias it is.

I don't know about bias but doubts surrounding the capabilities and potential vulnerabilities of the Irbis-E radar fitted to the Su-35 have been shared by much more than the French...

The Su-35 is the only fighter of its generation not fitted with an AESA radar and many suspect its design makes it rather prone to jamming by more advanced hardware. Also, the initial report of the jamming events in the Egyptian exercises actually originated from outlets in the Middle East, not France.

Air&cosmos wouldn't have enough comprehension of other platforms to make a valid comparison. As for the radar, I'd probably take a PESA twice the size over a much smaller AESA given how poor the software is both platforms is going to be.

ThePointblank · Sat Jan 01, 2022 5:07 am

kitplane01 wrote:
SeamanBeaumont wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:

Important quote (translated)
"In addition to these constraints, the Su-35 has also stood out for its difficulties since the signing of the partnership in 2016. Only 5 aircraft have officially been delivered to Egypt, while 22 aircraft should have already joined the Egyptian fleet in 2020, part other planes produced for the country are still grounded in the parking lot of the Sukhoi assembly plant near Moscow. Worse, in the exercises opposing the Su-35 to the Rafale in Egypt, the Rafale would have succeeded in jamming the PESA radar of the Sukhoi to the point of turning it off, forcing the Su-35 to land ..."

What the heck! United Aircraft cannot make 22 planes? Their radar is *that* weak? Anyone have a clue what's going on?

It's air&cosmos dude. That you have to translate it into English from french should tell you how bias it is.

OK. So *did* Russia deliver 22 aircraft? Because if they delivered only 5 but promised 22 ....

Below are two sites that seem to confirm the delivery of 5 and a contract for 24.

"The Russian Khabarovsk Krai region’s official media agency stated that the most important achievement of the military factory in the region was delivering the five Su-35 fighter jets to Egypt, out of the 24 jets that were agreed upon, despite the COVID-19 pandemic."

https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/20 ... -deal.html and https://asiatimes.com/2020/08/egypt-ope ... -purchase/

The alternative suggestion is that the Russians did make 22 Su-35's for Egypt, but Egypt rejected all but 5 of them due to quality control issues.

Ain't the first time this has happened; there was a massive brew up between Russia and Algeria when Algeria rejected delivery of a fleet of MiG-29's over quality issues, and also returned the airframes already delivered.

There was also rumours that the Venezuelan fleet of Su-30MK2's are from a batch of of aircraft that were originally rejected by the Chinese due to quality control issues, and the Russians just reworked the aircraft and sold them on to the Venezuelans.

kitplane01 · Sat Jan 01, 2022 12:34 pm

ThePointblank wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:
SeamanBeaumont wrote:
It's air&cosmos dude. That you have to translate it into English from french should tell you how bias it is.

OK. So *did* Russia deliver 22 aircraft? Because if they delivered only 5 but promised 22 ....

Below are two sites that seem to confirm the delivery of 5 and a contract for 24.

"The Russian Khabarovsk Krai region’s official media agency stated that the most important achievement of the military factory in the region was delivering the five Su-35 fighter jets to Egypt, out of the 24 jets that were agreed upon, despite the COVID-19 pandemic."

https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/20 ... -deal.html and https://asiatimes.com/2020/08/egypt-ope ... -purchase/

The alternative suggestion is that the Russians did make 22 Su-35's for Egypt, but Egypt rejected all but 5 of them due to quality control issues.

Ain't the first time this has happened; there was a massive brew up between Russia and Algeria when Algeria rejected delivery of a fleet of MiG-29's over quality issues, and also returned the airframes already delivered.

There was also rumours that the Venezuelan fleet of Su-30MK2's are from a batch of of aircraft that were originally rejected by the Chinese due to quality control issues, and the Russians just reworked the aircraft and sold them on to the Venezuelans.

What the heck is a “alternative suggestion “? If this is true, say so. Maybe even give a URL. But everything I’ve read is that they failed to produce the airplanes.

889091 · Sat Jan 01, 2022 12:59 pm

kitplane01 wrote:
What the heck is a “alternative suggestion “? If this is true, say so. Maybe even give a URL. But everything I’ve read is that they failed to produce the airplanes.

https://theaviationgeekclub.com/heres-w ... m-instead/

"In fact, as the photo below shows, at least 11 aircraft were already manufactured and ready for delivery, but Egypt never received them."

LHAM · Sat Jan 01, 2022 2:44 pm

SeamanBeaumont wrote:
Air&cosmos wouldn't have enough comprehension of other platforms to make a valid comparison. As for the radar, I'd probably take a PESA twice the size over a much smaller AESA given how poor the software is both platforms is going to be.

It wasn't Air&cosmos that made the comparison between the Su-35's PESA Irbis-E radar and the Rafale's AESA RBE-2 radar.
It was the Egyptian Air Force who operates both aircraft.
Air&cosmos just reported their findings. Don't shoot the messenger.

LHAM · Wed Jan 05, 2022 8:26 am

Apparently Egyptian, Indonesian and Algerian orders for the Su-35 are lost because of CAATSA sanctions on foreign build components.
Defense blog writes that:

“The Russian defense industry lost three large orders for its Su-35 fighters at once due to the failure to replace scanned array radar and avionics, which were previously imported from a number of European countries and Israel,” sources told Defense Blog.

I did not know that Russian fast jets had western content in them. Or did they promise to this three countries that they could have their Su-35s with western technology on radar and avionics and due to CAATSA are now unable to provide them?

Source: https://defence-blog.com/egypt-algeria-indonesia-reject-su-35-fighter-jet-deals-with-russia/

jouy31 · Tue Feb 08, 2022 5:09 pm

First batch of six Rafales reported for Indonesia

https://www.latribune.fr/entreprises-fi ... 03640.html

steman · Wed Feb 09, 2022 7:26 am

How will the Indonesian Rafals be designated?
Did Dassault assign a letter to the examples for Indonesia, like they did with the other customers (Qataris EQ/DH for example)

art · Wed Feb 09, 2022 12:55 pm

I will wait to see if it is announced that there is a firm order with financial arrangements firmed and payment being made before I believe that Indonesia will actually be getting Rafale. It is reported that the French Armed Services minister will be in Indonesia 09/10 Feb.

If I were South Korea I would be livid if money changed hands while Indonesia was in default of payments re: KF-X development (if Indonesia is still behind on payments).

mxaxai · Wed Feb 09, 2022 1:06 pm

art wrote:
If I were South Korea I would be livid if money changed hands while Indonesia was in default of payments re: KF-X development (if Indonesia is still behind on payments).

While I understand the sentiment, the Rafales are probably more attractive short-term to Indonesia because Dassault / France can likely offer very short delivery times while KF-X will be in development for several more years.

art · Wed Feb 09, 2022 1:38 pm

mxaxai wrote:
art wrote:
If I were South Korea I would be livid if money changed hands while Indonesia was in default of payments re: KF-X development (if Indonesia is still behind on payments).

While I understand the sentiment, the Rafales are probably more attractive short-term to Indonesia because Dassault / France can likely offer very short delivery times while KF-X will be in development for several more years.

Not my point. Indonesia has been late or has not paid according to its contract with South Korea. I am confident that the excuse would have been lack of funds. If I am right, how come Indonesia will be paying Dassault (or France) if it does not have the funds to honour an earlier contract?

Perhaps Indonesia thinks that South Korea needs its orders for F-21 so South Korea will put up with Indonesian money going on Rafale rather than on settling overdue payments to South Korea.

mxaxai · Wed Feb 09, 2022 1:55 pm

art wrote:
Not my point. Indonesia has been late or has not paid according to its contract with South Korea. I am confident that the excuse would have been lack of funds.

Perhaps, but there are lots of different funds. Some are allocated to day-to-day operations, some are to be used for short term acquistions and some for long term investments and R&D. Governments often say "there's no money for X" but will happily fund Y and Z.

art · Wed Feb 09, 2022 2:39 pm

mxaxai wrote:
art wrote:
Not my point. Indonesia has been late or has not paid according to its contract with South Korea. I am confident that the excuse would have been lack of funds.

Perhaps, but there are lots of different funds. Some are allocated to day-to-day operations, some are to be used for short term acquistions and some for long term investments and R&D. Governments often say "there's no money for X" but will happily fund Y and Z.

The wonders of government budgeting.. I still won't be convinced Indonesia is getting Rafales until I hear that money has changed hands or France has provided an export credit guarantee to activate the sales contract.

jouy31 · Thu Feb 10, 2022 6:57 am

Confirmation of the deal for six Rafale, within a larger order for 42.

https://www.capital.fr/entreprises-marc ... al-1428063

https://www.brecorder.com/news/40153446 ... -warplanes

https://www.globenewswire.com/news-rele ... afale.html

art · Thu Feb 10, 2022 8:07 am

jouy31 wrote:
Confirmation of the deal for six Rafale, within a larger order for 42.

https://www.capital.fr/entreprises-marc ... al-1428063

https://www.brecorder.com/news/40153446 ... -warplanes

https://www.globenewswire.com/news-rele ... afale.html

When will deliveries start? I did not see any reference in the articles.

I cannot see the wisdom in buying 6, given the cost of logistics, support etc required for a new fleet type. Could Indonesia stump up $1+ billion and then fail to find the funds to activate the existing unactivated contract for 36 Rafale?

aschachter · Thu Feb 10, 2022 8:26 pm

Reuters are also reporting the Order

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 4jvOyV62MA

zkojq · Fri Feb 11, 2022 12:44 pm

Excellent news. Congratulations to Dassault and Indonesia. They'll be getting a very good aircraft.

LHAM · Sat Feb 12, 2022 9:03 pm

The value of the Indonesian contract for the 42 aircraft stands at $8,1 billion.
Presumably it includes weapons, training, tooling and parts.

hhttps://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-02-10/dassault-extends-rafale-success-with-indonesia-deal-for-42-jets

art · Wed Feb 16, 2022 10:03 pm

Indonesia shopping/window shopping spree to continue? The estimated total cost of this F-15 package is $13.9 billion.

https://www.dsca.mil/press-media/major- ... d-aircraft

Dutchy · Wed Feb 16, 2022 10:14 pm

LHAM wrote:
The value of the Indonesian contract for the 42 aircraft stands at $8,1 billion.
Presumably it includes weapons, training, tooling and parts.

hhttps://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-02-10/dassault-extends-rafale-success-with-indonesia-deal-for-42-jets

The title should change a bit: 36 --> 42 ;-)

Dutchy · Wed Feb 16, 2022 10:16 pm

art wrote:
Indonesia shopping/window shopping spree to continue? The estimated total cost of this F-15 package is $13.9 billion.

https://www.dsca.mil/press-media/major- ... d-aircraft

Wouldn't it make more sense to buy more Rafales? At 400million a pop, it seems quite expensive to add another system to your fleet.

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