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alberchico
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Chinese Y-20 transport finally flies with upgraded engines

Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:09 am

Image

Image

Apparently this aircraft has finally been fitted with the definitive WS-20 domestic turbofan. From what I've read the performance of this jet will be vastly superior to the IL-76 but still slightly inferior than the C-17. Also was surprised to read that Antonov helped the Chinese a great deal with its development to speed things up. That explains why this aircraft has some similarities to the Il-76, particularly when it comes to the flap design, as well as the identical doors.

https://www.flightglobal.com/defence/ch ... 41.article

https://thaimilitaryandasianregion.word ... -aircraft/

The illustration below shows a turbofan transport powered concept based heavily on the An-70 that allegedly was sold to the Chinese and developed into the Y-20.

Image
 
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Leovinus
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Re: Chinese Y-20 transport finally flies with upgraded engines

Wed Jun 16, 2021 6:08 am

While China is a nation that I'm wary of for political reasons and disagree with, I am still happy for their progress in fields like this. Good going China.

I'm not at all surprised Antonov helps out. The design bureau is currently not producing much as ties with Russia have been severed for very natural reasons. It's been incorporated in Ukroboronprom, the major state manufacturing concern, just to stay somewhat alive. Any and all opportunities to keep their skillsets will be jumped on. They helped on the ARJ program, so I'm not in the least surprised they're helping china in other fields as well.

I just wish they'd get back on their feet. There was talk of the An-158 derived military transport An-178 being sold in numbers to the Saudis, but that fell through. Some orders by Ukraine and small operators. But not much more. Does anyone know if they're producing anything else (not counting busses etc) at the moment?
 
CRJockey
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Re: Chinese Y-20 transport finally flies with upgraded engines

Wed Jun 16, 2021 7:34 am

Good for China and Antonov.

And now cue texl1649 coming in the thread and ranting how the Chinese didn’t make an own design because the transport looks so similar to the C-17…
 
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scbriml
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Re: Chinese Y-20 transport finally flies with upgraded engines

Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:41 am

alberchico wrote:
Also was surprised to read that Antonov helped the Chinese a great deal with its development to speed things up. That explains why this aircraft has some similarities to the Il-76, particularly when it comes to the flap design, as well as the identical doors.


Why does Antonov's help explain the claimed similarities to the Il-76?
 
744SPX
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Re: Chinese Y-20 transport finally flies with upgraded engines

Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:14 pm

Finally. I was beginning to think the Y-20 was never going to get the new engines.
 
texl1649
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Re: Chinese Y-20 transport finally flies with upgraded engines

Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:21 pm

It's a shame the AN-70 wasn't ever produced in numbers. In many ways, it could have been a much more affordable option vs. the A400M (and, yes, eternal C-130 buys). I'm glad the Chinese took it a bit further.

Sorry to occupy so much space in your head, CRJockey. Yes, the Chinese aerospace industry has copied a lot, not just blackhawks, DC-9's etc. The Y-20 of course does incorporate some of what they stole from Boeing (see link), but I think it's more directly derived from the AN-70.

https://www.avgeekery.com/y-20-big-chinese-knockoff/
 
CRJockey
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Re: Chinese Y-20 transport finally flies with upgraded engines

Thu Jun 17, 2021 8:40 am

texl1649 wrote:
It's a shame the AN-70 wasn't ever produced in numbers. In many ways, it could have been a much more affordable option vs. the A400M (and, yes, eternal C-130 buys). I'm glad the Chinese took it a bit further.

Sorry to occupy so much space in your head, CRJockey. Yes, the Chinese aerospace industry has copied a lot, not just blackhawks, DC-9's etc. The Y-20 of course does incorporate some of what they stole from Boeing (see link), but I think it's more directly derived from the AN-70.

https://www.avgeekery.com/y-20-big-chinese-knockoff/


That’s alright, I am always here for people in need.
 
CRJockey
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Re: Chinese Y-20 transport finally flies with upgraded engines

Thu Jun 17, 2021 9:17 am

And by the way, thanks for another credible source. Always have been a big fan of Wendell‘s journalism.

And what a copy it is. High wing, four engine t-tail design for a military transport. And even the flight deck at the front. Pure C-17.
 
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alberchico
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Re: Chinese Y-20 transport finally flies with upgraded engines

Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:35 pm

The June issue of AirForces monthly has a fascinating article on the Ukraine China link. Not only do they collaborate on aircraft development, two Chinese trainers also use Ukrainian made engines. The Chinese at one point tried to buy the Motor Sich engine company, but the deal was aborted due to heavy US pressure. This excellent picture I found of a Y-20 visit to Moscow shows the differences between the two jets.

Image
 
mxaxai
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Re: Chinese Y-20 transport finally flies with upgraded engines

Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:48 pm

The aircraft on the right is still made by Ilyushin (a Russian company), not Antonov (a Ukrainian company), and its engines are built by Aviadvigatel in Russia.

I fail to see any similarity between the Il-76 and the Y-20 except that both are four-engined high wing airlifters.
 
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kitplane01
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Re: Chinese Y-20 transport finally flies with upgraded engines

Thu Jun 24, 2021 1:33 am

CRJockey wrote:
Good for China and Antonov.



Can you explain why China getting better military aircraft is good?
 
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keesje
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Re: Chinese Y-20 transport finally flies with upgraded engines

Thu Jun 24, 2021 9:41 am

Millions of jobs depend on the huge defense budget.

Image
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... penditures

Peace & stability won't help preserve the budgets, local companies, airbases, harbors, units, associated jobs. No bad guys, That's something we can do without! So fear mongering, historic perspectives, generalizations & flag waving are never far away. The battle to protect and expand Defense budget never stops, there is no enough. Expect the Chinese soon to take over the bad guys roles in Hollywood & DoD to help out with awesome machinery for free.
 
angad84
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Re: Chinese Y-20 transport finally flies with upgraded engines

Thu Jun 24, 2021 5:56 pm

Leovinus wrote:
I don't quite see how this aspect would be the fault of China per-se.

Are you... not familiar with the concept of censorship? Because this comes off as fabulously naive. Come to Asia, literally anywhere in Asia, we'll be happy to show and tell you all about it. It's totally par for the course here.

For every one movie that is self-edited to cater to Chinese cultural mores (and, as it happens, often badly, as was the case with the new Star Wars trilogy), there are a dozen that are simply banned from releasing there or chopped up so as to be nearly unrecognisable.
 
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Leovinus
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Re: Chinese Y-20 transport finally flies with upgraded engines

Thu Jun 24, 2021 7:09 pm

angad84 wrote:
Leovinus wrote:
I don't quite see how this aspect would be the fault of China per-se.

Are you... not familiar with the concept of censorship? Because this comes off as fabulously naive. Come to Asia, literally anywhere in Asia, we'll be happy to show and tell you all about it. It's totally par for the course here.

For every one movie that is self-edited to cater to Chinese cultural mores (and, as it happens, often badly, as was the case with the new Star Wars trilogy), there are a dozen that are simply banned from releasing there or chopped up so as to be nearly unrecognisable.


I'm not being sarcastic when I suggest you re-read my post, because I think you'll find I never once condoned Chinas behaviour. But in Short: Greedy western companies want access to China, China wants censorship in return, western companies willingly(!) oblige.

I don't in any way condone western companies licking Chinas proverbial butt, but making it out to be the fault of China that western companies are bowing to their censorship is wrong. It directs attention away from the parties we actually CAN hold responsible. Spineless, greedy, companies that disregard the threat China represents for short term gain.
 
angad84
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Re: Chinese Y-20 transport finally flies with upgraded engines

Sun Jun 27, 2021 1:59 pm

China's behaviour shapes that of countries and corporations that engage with China. It might be easier to hold companies accountable, but let's not give China a free pass shall we?

You did write it isn't "the fault of China per-se" — except it absolutely is, as long as censorship is in force, it forces a level of conformity, conscious or otherwise.
 
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Leovinus
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Re: Chinese Y-20 transport finally flies with upgraded engines

Sun Jun 27, 2021 2:55 pm

angad84 wrote:
China's behaviour shapes that of countries and corporations that engage with China. It might be easier to hold companies accountable, but let's not give China a free pass shall we?

You did write it isn't "the fault of China per-se" — except it absolutely is, as long as censorship is in force, it forces a level of conformity, conscious or otherwise.


It isn't, and I'll try to explain why I think so.

The uncomfortable truth is that the west has given China power over it willingly. If the United States or the EU were sincere in their contempt for Chinas restrictions on access to their markets we could use the same tools we use against Cuba or Iran. But we can't. Over several decades the west, on the hunt for cheap labour, has outsourced most production in whole or in part to it. Placing the engine of our economies in their hands. With one squeeze we would be completely paralysed.

At this point China is not unlike a parasitic infection, using capitalism against itself in order to ensnare the west further. Disney et. al. crying crocodile tears about how they must debase themselves in order to be rewarded by their new masters is a charade that deserves no pity. Neither are the indignant press releases from the likes of Apple or Nike as news of their suppliers using slave labour leaks to be taken at face value. Wilful ignorance in the hunt for profit is no excuse.

For the west to be effective against China it needs to excise the disease. Blaming China while we keep drinking they and their vassals infected cool-aid does nothing. And aside from all out war I see little alternative than surgical debridement of ourselves. The diseased body of China is beyond our operating room.
 
texl1649
Posts: 1898
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Re: Chinese Y-20 transport finally flies with upgraded engines

Sun Jun 27, 2021 3:23 pm

LOL, it’s not like China has ever been busted stealing C-17 design specifics, or has a history of copying stuff like the Blackhawk explicitly.

Image

As an aside, I am a bit surprised that in their foray into large aircraft production/design, they didn’t also make an effort to win in the civil transport market first, vs. the pending passenger aircraft. Boeing basically plays alone in that space by market share, fuel economy itself isn’t the driver, and if supported at a cheap price I’d think cargo carriers might have an interest at least notionally higher than the did on the civil C-17 option (MD-17?)
 
CRJockey
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Re: Chinese Y-20 transport finally flies with upgraded engines

Mon Jun 28, 2021 10:04 pm

texl1649 wrote:
LOL, it’s not like China has ever been busted stealing C-17 design specifics, or has a history of copying stuff like the Blackhawk explicitly.

Image

As an aside, I am a bit surprised that in their foray into large aircraft production/design, they didn’t also make an effort to win in the civil transport market first, vs. the pending passenger aircraft. Boeing basically plays alone in that space by market share, fuel economy itself isn’t the driver, and if supported at a cheap price I’d think cargo carriers might have an interest at least notionally higher than the did on the civil C-17 option (MD-17?)


They really should have made a better job in hiding the straight copy. Putting the main rotor at the back or the wheels on the upper side.
Come on, you can do better China!
 
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keesje
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Re: Chinese Y-20 transport finally flies with upgraded engines

Tue Jun 29, 2021 6:01 pm

CRJockey wrote:
texl1649 wrote:
LOL, it’s not like China has ever been busted stealing C-17 design specifics, or has a history of copying stuff like the Blackhawk explicitly.

Image

As an aside, I am a bit surprised that in their foray into large aircraft production/design, they didn’t also make an effort to win in the civil transport market first, vs. the pending passenger aircraft. Boeing basically plays alone in that space by market share, fuel economy itself isn’t the driver, and if supported at a cheap price I’d think cargo carriers might have an interest at least notionally higher than the did on the civil C-17 option (MD-17?)


They really should have made a better job in hiding the straight copy. Putting the main rotor at the back or the wheels on the upper side.
Come on, you can do better China!


Image
keesje2015
 
CRJockey
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Re: Chinese Y-20 transport finally flies with upgraded engines

Tue Jun 29, 2021 6:06 pm

keesje wrote:
...


Yes, Keesje?
 
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keesje
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Re: Chinese Y-20 transport finally flies with upgraded engines

Tue Jun 29, 2021 6:39 pm

CRJockey wrote:
keesje wrote:
...


Yes, Keesje?


You can see they can do better, J-21, J32, J-10, L-15 and others are indigenous designs. Unless you are from the Concordski generation & sensitive for farfetches similarities that have little to do with aeronautical design, but all with cold war mentality (it's copied or inferior).
 
CRJockey
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Re: Chinese Y-20 transport finally flies with upgraded engines

Tue Jun 29, 2021 7:37 pm

keesje wrote:
CRJockey wrote:
keesje wrote:
...


Yes, Keesje?


You can see they can do better, J-21, J32, J-10, L-15 and others are indigenous designs. Unless you are from the Concordski generation & sensitive for farfetches similarities that have little to do with aeronautical design, but all with cold war mentality (it's copied or inferior).


Thanks for explaining to me my own very obvious irony.

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