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kitplane01
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Re: Stealth is very important

Thu Jul 01, 2021 6:05 am

BawliBooch wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:
Suppose your India looking at China. Or Pakistan looking at India. Either way your air force probably should spend its entire budget on those fighters needed to combat the larger enemy. Don’t spend money on cheap ground attack aircraft when you cannot get air superiority. For these nations, would you agree it’s as much stealth as you can get?

The USAF can fly A-10s to minimize the number of very expensive F-35 hours.


Well, the strategic situation in the sub-continent has changed dramatically in the past 4 years since Doklam. Now a 2 front war with China-Pak in alliance is a real possibility. Worse, otherwise peaceful neighbors like Nepal, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka are also making aggressive noises (Kalapani, Farakka) with regards to territorial claims.

Restricting discussion to Ladakh, China has just moved in large numbers of mobile S300 clone radar+missile systems in the areas they occupied since May 2020. Which means Indian air Force will find it impossible to act in this sector without first neutralizing these Radars. Stealth is not useful in this specific context, since they lose it the second they turn on their radars which will enable the Chinese mobile SAM batteries to easily knock them out.

What could IAF do? They could open the hostilities by sending in the good old Jaguars flying close to terrain to knock out the Chinese SAM batteries with either Russian/Israeli or the Indian NGARM anti-radiation missiles. I have info from reliable sources that the IAF pilots are practicing exactly these kind of ground hogging manouvers in simulators! :) Around 40 of the 125 Jaguars have been upgraded with new radars in 2016. The project was never really completed. There is a new proposal to upgrade the Jaguars with Israeli 2052M AESA radars. Still stuck in bureaucratic tangles though!


I don't think what you wrote is true. An F-35 could locate SAM sites using ECM with the radars off, and strike these sites with the radars off. Or they could attack the sites with the radars off who's location was detected using the same intelligence the Jaguar pilots are using.

I would think a low flying Jaguar pilots has a significant chance of getting shot down by a modern SAM, but a F-35 has better odds.

The scenario of highly contested airspace filled with enemy radars is the situation that an F-35 can do much better than a non-stealth aircraft.
 
angad84
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Re: Stealth is very important

Fri Jul 02, 2021 8:12 pm

BawliBooch wrote:
Indian air Force will find it impossible to act in this sector without first neutralizing these Radars. Stealth is not useful in this specific context.


Uhmm, no? SEAD/DEAD is exactly the kind of scenario where stealth brings disproportionate advantages to the mission, all else being equal.

BawliBooch wrote:
What could IAF do? They could open the hostilities by sending in the good old Jaguars flying close to terrain to knock out the Chinese SAM batteries with either Russian/Israeli or the Indian NGARM anti-radiation missiles. I have info from reliable sources that the IAF pilots are practicing exactly these kind of ground hogging manouvers in simulators! :) Around 40 of the 125 Jaguars have been upgraded with new radars in 2016. The project was never really completed. There is a new proposal to upgrade the Jaguars with Israeli 2052M AESA radars. Still stuck in bureaucratic tangles though!


Ignoring the fact that India has rarely, if ever, initiated hostilities, pray tell how are the NGARMs supposed to strike radars they cannot see? If the Jags ingress nap of earth to avoid detection, physics dictates they will not be able to pick up any radars that cannot pick them up. The Jaguar as a SEAD/DEAD platform is useless at ultra low level. To detect and geolocate radars, it has to fly at height. Even if using off board detection/location, it makes no sense to ingress ultra low because that reduces the effective range of the NGARM, forcing the Jaguar to penetrate deeper into hostile airspace to deliver the same effects, increasing the risk of detection and interception. I am most certainly a believer in low-level tactics, even at the cost of my credibility in mil circles, but it does have limitations, particularly when the adversary has airborne AEW/ISR, where look-down negates the advantage of LL strike.

FWIW, to clear up some of the mixed info on Jag capabilities -- the 12 or so Jaguar IMs had their Agave radars replaced with Elta 2032 around 2004. The subsequent DARIN3 project, which achieved IOC in 2016 (this may be where the confusion comes from) includes an AESA (Elta 2052). Following IOC, aircraft marked for upgrade have been slowly cycling in for overhaul and mods, but that will take quite a while to complete. It is not stuck in bureaucratic tangles at all though, just good old make haste slowly.

BawliBooch wrote:
Stealth is for the Americans.

Stealth is a capability in aid of warfighting. It has no national limitation, only budgetary. If that's what you're alluding to, you'll hear no argument from me, our defence budget is a big smoking hole. But if you're saying stealth brings no value to the Indian military, you could not be further from correct.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Stealth is very important

Sun Jul 04, 2021 2:29 pm

Stealth is an advanced tech that require a larger logistic tail. It is a tech that is only useful I you are willing support it, something that even some western nations will be hard pressed.

All this talk about Chinese stealth overwhelming the battlefield may be prudent but it will have to be verified. How robust are the Chinese logistic infrastructure? They can build as many stealth frames they want, but how many can they keep in the air.

Recall the great Soviet Airforce.

bt
 
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kc135topboom
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Re: Stealth is very important

Thu Jul 08, 2021 10:50 pm

Kitplane 01 wrote:
"4- Stealth is very important. Any stealthy airplane can beat in beyond-visual-range combat any non-stealthy airplanes. Between an F-35 and any of F-15, Su-35, Eurofighter, etc. the F-35 wins."


No, any good F-15, F-16, Eurofighter, Rafale, or FA-18E/F pilot would fire on the F-35 as soon as he opens his doors to his missiles. The open doors and bay will show up on radar.
F-22 pilots are always saying "beware of Raptors with open doors".
Even if the opposing pilot didn't see the doors open on his radar, he would know the missile is on its way because BVR is a long way away (20+ nm) and the missile, no matter how fast it is will take a minimum of one minute to get there. That gives the F-15 pilot an idea where the F-35 is, he can fire a few missiles and then maneuver to defeat the F-35s missile.
Fighters will still have to get close and dirty to fight. Dog fighting is not dead with stealth.
Stealth is only good on the first day of the war, to kick down the door and take out the radars to blind the enemy. The Gen4 fighters will fly in to fly CAP for the bomb trucks to follow.
This will all be managed by AWACS and supported by tankers and ELINT.
 
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kitplane01
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Re: Stealth is very important

Thu Jul 08, 2021 11:23 pm

kc135topboom wrote:
Kitplane 01 wrote:
"4- Stealth is very important. Any stealthy airplane can beat in beyond-visual-range combat any non-stealthy airplanes. Between an F-35 and any of F-15, Su-35, Eurofighter, etc. the F-35 wins."


No, any good F-15, F-16, Eurofighter, Rafale, or FA-18E/F pilot would fire on the F-35 as soon as he opens his doors to his missiles. The open doors and bay will show up on radar.
F-22 pilots are always saying "beware of Raptors with open doors".
Even if the opposing pilot didn't see the doors open on his radar, he would know the missile is on its way because BVR is a long way away (20+ nm) and the missile, no matter how fast it is will take a minimum of one minute to get there. That gives the F-15 pilot an idea where the F-35 is, he can fire a few missiles and then maneuver to defeat the F-35s missile.
Fighters will still have to get close and dirty to fight. Dog fighting is not dead with stealth.
Stealth is only good on the first day of the war, to kick down the door and take out the radars to blind the enemy. The Gen4 fighters will fly in to fly CAP for the bomb trucks to follow.
This will all be managed by AWACS and supported by tankers and ELINT.


I don't think that makes sense.

The doors are open for like 2 seconds. It's a very quick pilot who can see, recognize, target, and fire in 2 seconds. And once the missiles are away, they need to find an invisible maneuvering target.

Meanwhile, the F-15 has the radar cross section of the Titanic on Christmas night. It gets targeted from a very long way away, and dies quickly.
 
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BawliBooch
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Re: Stealth is very important

Fri Jul 09, 2021 8:28 am

Interesting opinions all round. But please explain how expensive Stealth aircraft can help in the India v China context. Also, do the Chinese investments and developments in AI warfare technology neutralise any advantages of Stealth? Defense Experts like Ajai Shukla and Praveen Sawhney have spoken indepth on this topic.

angad84 wrote:
FWIW, to clear up some of the mixed info on Jag capabilities -- the 12 or so Jaguar IMs had their Agave radars replaced with Elta 2032 around 2004. The subsequent DARIN3 project, which achieved IOC in 2016 (this may be where the confusion comes from) includes an AESA (Elta 2052). Following IOC, aircraft marked for upgrade have been slowly cycling in for overhaul and mods, but that will take quite a while to complete. It is not stuck in bureaucratic tangles at all though, just good old make haste slowly.

Interesting! I have seen your Twitter feed. I understand where you are coming from!


just good old make haste slowly
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Is "just good old make haste slowly" the new "MASTERSTROKE"?!!!
:wave:
 
angad84
Posts: 2135
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Re: Stealth is very important

Sat Jul 10, 2021 9:07 am

BawliBooch wrote:
But please explain how expensive Stealth aircraft can help in the India v China context.

As in any context — look first, shoot first.

BawliBooch wrote:
do the Chinese investments and developments in AI warfare technology neutralise any advantages of Stealth? Defense Experts like Ajai Shukla and Praveen Sawhney have spoken indepth on this topic.

These are just buzzwords. Unless specifics are articulated they are meaningless.

If China's investments in "AI warfare technology" were to neutralise stealth, why are they, at great cost, developing stealth aircraft themselves?

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