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firemansparky
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New Russian Fighter Jet

Wed Jul 14, 2021 3:05 pm

Per Popular Mechanics, a new Russian fighter will makes it's debut July 20, the first day of the MAKS-2021 airshow:

https://www.popularmechanics.com/milita ... et-teaser/

Let the speculation begin.....
 
744SPX
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Re: New Russian Fighter Jet

Wed Jul 14, 2021 4:08 pm

MiG LMFS finally seeing the light of day?
 
aumaverick
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Re: New Russian Fighter Jet

Wed Jul 14, 2021 4:10 pm

I speculate probably either a modified and down-scaled SU-57 with a single engine, or a Russian FC-31 clone. Probably more towards the FC-31/F-35 clone since pretty much all next-gen light fighters have a similar form. Do the Russians have a comparable engine choice for a single-engine fighter akin to the F-35?
 
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keesje
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Re: New Russian Fighter Jet

Wed Jul 14, 2021 4:15 pm

The long expected Mikoyan light/ medium fighter I guess.

I guess ot must be either inferior or a clone :sarcastic:
 
texl1649
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Re: New Russian Fighter Jet

Wed Jul 14, 2021 9:45 pm

keesje wrote:
The long expected Mikoyan light/ medium fighter I guess.

I guess ot must be either inferior or a clone :sarcastic:


Can we please just not turn everything into a battle of “American” vs. “not”? Before there’s even an issue? We all know the side you are on, and that’s fine.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: New Russian Fighter Jet

Wed Jul 14, 2021 10:10 pm

will it be 'just' a mock-up or a flying prototype. Anyhow, it will be interesting to see what they have developed and at what stage they are.
 
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Slug71
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Re: New Russian Fighter Jet

Thu Jul 15, 2021 1:42 am

aumaverick wrote:
I speculate probably either a modified and down-scaled SU-57 with a single engine, or a Russian FC-31 clone. Probably more towards the FC-31/F-35 clone since pretty much all next-gen light fighters have a similar form. Do the Russians have a comparable engine choice for a single-engine fighter akin to the F-35?


My first thought was a FC-31 clone offered by Mikoyan. Russia doesn't have a stealth carrier born fighter. The FC-31 is well rumored to get a naval variant.
 
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Leovinus
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Re: New Russian Fighter Jet

Thu Jul 15, 2021 8:35 am

Is it likely that Russia has the economical strength to develop a light stealth fighter on top of their other development commitments? The F-35 is not exactly a cheap program, and I remain sceptical that both the FCAS and Tempest will see the light of day for political and economical reasons. All of these programs also hinge on getting more for less in a warfare scenario.

Russia, historically, has gone the opposite route. Using more assets rather than less. If Russia can field twice the amount of much cheaper and less capable light stealth fighters against e.g. the F-35 statistically and economically they might not necessarily be that much worse for wear in a combat scenario. So long as such an asset superiority makes up for potential technology shortfalls. Logically speaking.

With that in mind, do they have any airframes on hand today that might serve as a basis for a stealth-ish aircraft for that purpose? Heavily redeveloped MiG-35 ala the F-15 silent eagle?

A left field entry of a Chinese derivative/cooperation?
 
mxaxai
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Re: New Russian Fighter Jet

Thu Jul 15, 2021 11:19 am

Leovinus wrote:
With that in mind, do they have any airframes on hand today that might serve as a basis for a stealth-ish aircraft for that purpose? Heavily redeveloped MiG-35 ala the F-15 silent eagle?

Adding stealth to a non-stealth aircraft is extremely difficult and generally not worth the cost. Stealth affects all aspects of airframe and system construction; where to place your sensors, what methods to use to join parts, which materials and shapes to use, etc. You can attempt to add coatings and similar small changes for budget stealth but that's already done for most 4.5th gen fighters.
 
tommy1808
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Re: New Russian Fighter Jet

Thu Jul 15, 2021 11:39 am

Leovinus wrote:
Is it likely that Russia has the economical strength to develop a light stealth fighter on top of their other development commitments?


Nope, recent years would imply there isn´t even enough to develop a new tank beyond the chassis.

best regards
Thomas
 
Nicoeddf
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Re: New Russian Fighter Jet

Thu Jul 15, 2021 1:10 pm

texl1649 wrote:
keesje wrote:
The long expected Mikoyan light/ medium fighter I guess.

I guess ot must be either inferior or a clone :sarcastic:


Can we please just not turn everything into a battle of “American” vs. “not”? Before there’s even an issue? We all know the side you are on, and that’s fine.


He is not turning anything into anything. He is predicting the future with high probability of achieving high accuracy.
 
angad84
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Re: New Russian Fighter Jet

Thu Jul 15, 2021 5:36 pm

firemansparky wrote:
Per Popular Mechanics, a new Russian fighter will makes it's debut July 20, the first day of the MAKS-2021 airshow:

https://www.popularmechanics.com/milita ... et-teaser/

Let the speculation begin.....

It's clear the pitch is aimed at securing foreign funding. This is probably the first look at a model of the fighter that was announced with UAE a few years ago.

India will not bite. I doubt Vietnam will. And UAE will get F-35s, so they're out too. This is just a hail mary.
 
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alberchico
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Re: New Russian Fighter Jet

Thu Jul 15, 2021 10:57 pm

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/4 ... n-air-show

Here are the first images of what I assume to be the mockup.

Image
 
angad84
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Re: New Russian Fighter Jet

Thu Jul 15, 2021 11:35 pm

Surprised at the intake location given how FOD sensitive Russian engines are. You'd think a clean sheet would give them a chance to locate them up high.

Oh well, at least it's not sucking in debris kicked up by the nosewheel this time...
 
RJMAZ
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Re: New Russian Fighter Jet

Fri Jul 16, 2021 2:23 am

The problem I see is that Russian engines still have very poor reliability and a single engine design needs a very reliable engine.

The US engines can in my opinion produce approximately 30% more thrust compared to a Russian engine with similar size , weight and durability. The Russian engines are where the US engines were 30 years ago.

Russia is simply turning up the thrust and heat of their engines to hit thrust targets to make them look competitive. The US engines are highly derated to last thousands of hours compared to the Russians mere hundreds of hours.

Russia will have to derate the AL-41 so severely to gain reliability that overall performance of the aircraft will be low.

The F-135 engine in the F-35 is so light and power dense by comparison that it allows for the frame to have those huge weapons bays and a massive internal fuel capacity. A Russian AL-41 powered design would need to be slimmed down with tiny weapons bays and a low fuel capacity for relative short range.
 
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Slug71
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Re: New Russian Fighter Jet

Fri Jul 16, 2021 2:48 am

angad84 wrote:
firemansparky wrote:
Per Popular Mechanics, a new Russian fighter will makes it's debut July 20, the first day of the MAKS-2021 airshow:

https://www.popularmechanics.com/milita ... et-teaser/

Let the speculation begin.....

It's clear the pitch is aimed at securing foreign funding. This is probably the first look at a model of the fighter that was announced with UAE a few years ago.

India will not bite. I doubt Vietnam will. And UAE will get F-35s, so they're out too. This is just a hail mary.


Agreed. They should have taken the opportunity to license build the FC-31. Would be far cheaper than trying to do a clean sheet, and increase the opportunity for foreign sales of the FC-31. If this is true, it will just be another expensive low rate production aircraft.
 
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SeamanBeaumont
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Re: New Russian Fighter Jet

Fri Jul 16, 2021 3:19 am

Slug71 wrote:
angad84 wrote:
firemansparky wrote:
Per Popular Mechanics, a new Russian fighter will makes it's debut July 20, the first day of the MAKS-2021 airshow:

https://www.popularmechanics.com/milita ... et-teaser/

Let the speculation begin.....

It's clear the pitch is aimed at securing foreign funding. This is probably the first look at a model of the fighter that was announced with UAE a few years ago.

India will not bite. I doubt Vietnam will. And UAE will get F-35s, so they're out too. This is just a hail mary.


Agreed. They should have taken the opportunity to license build the FC-31. Would be far cheaper than trying to do a clean sheet, and increase the opportunity for foreign sales of the FC-31. If this is true, it will just be another expensive low rate production aircraft.

How and why does Russia licence build a prototype aircraft and are you saying Russia even had an opportunity to? Seems some bonkers claims to me.
 
FlapOperator
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Re: New Russian Fighter Jet

Fri Jul 16, 2021 4:03 am

Honestly I can see a cheaper single engine fighter fitting into the existing Russian concept of an air defense “complex” better any of their other super fighter concepts.

The problem is the recent combat experience of the Pantsir and S-300 has been, to be charitable, very uneven. The Azeris picked apart a Soviet/Russian templated IADS with relative ease. This means there are gaping holes at the low and middle of the Russian complex. Against the Ukrainians, this is likely manageable. Against a higher tier adversary with LO fighters, armed UAVs and impressive IRBMs, it’s recipe for disaster.

The Russians, as is their wont, are likely looking at the F-35 as the most stressing engagement when it’s likely their “allies” who are slowly rolling back Russian dominance in their Far East territories and Central Asian Near Abroad countries represent the far more enduring threat.
 
angad84
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Re: New Russian Fighter Jet

Fri Jul 16, 2021 10:59 am

angad84 wrote:
Surprised at the intake location given how FOD sensitive Russian engines are. You'd think a clean sheet would give them a chance to locate them up high.

Oh well, at least it's not sucking in debris kicked up by the nosewheel this time...

New pictures confirm side mounted intakes high off the ground. Makes way more sense.
 
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Slug71
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Re: New Russian Fighter Jet

Fri Jul 16, 2021 2:45 pm

SeamanBeaumont wrote:
Slug71 wrote:
angad84 wrote:
It's clear the pitch is aimed at securing foreign funding. This is probably the first look at a model of the fighter that was announced with UAE a few years ago.

India will not bite. I doubt Vietnam will. And UAE will get F-35s, so they're out too. This is just a hail mary.


Agreed. They should have taken the opportunity to license build the FC-31. Would be far cheaper than trying to do a clean sheet, and increase the opportunity for foreign sales of the FC-31. If this is true, it will just be another expensive low rate production aircraft.

How and why does Russia licence build a prototype aircraft and are you saying Russia even had an opportunity to? Seems some bonkers claims to me.


I see no reason they couldn't have had the opportunity. China has bought, and produced a lot of Russian hardware. J-15 for example.
 
giblets
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Re: New Russian Fighter Jet

Fri Jul 16, 2021 5:23 pm

Interesting they consider Argentina a viable customer, not sure how able they would be afford a couple of squadrons of 5th gen fighters


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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bikerthai
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Re: New Russian Fighter Jet

Fri Jul 16, 2021 5:23 pm

Slug71 wrote:
I see no reason they couldn't have had the opportunity. China has bought, and produced a lot of Russian hardware. J-15 for example.


The reasons is obvious. The Chinese believe they can design and build a better airplane.

And for the other country who had experienced in building Russian fighter through licensing? India will have access to build western fighter through licensing.

bt
 
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Leovinus
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Re: New Russian Fighter Jet

Fri Jul 16, 2021 8:57 pm

bikerthai wrote:
Slug71 wrote:
I see no reason they couldn't have had the opportunity. China has bought, and produced a lot of Russian hardware. J-15 for example.


The reasons is obvious. The Chinese believe they can design and build a better airplane.

And for the other country who had experienced in building Russian fighter through licensing? India will have access to build western fighter through licensing.

bt


India, while having been burnt plenty by Russia, is still a major customer of theirs. With some mending of wounds perhaps Russia can ingratiate themselves with India enough to gain them as customer? Perhaps as partner even as the HAL AMCA project seems to be for a rather similar plane to the rumoured Russian one.
 
angad84
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Re: New Russian Fighter Jet

Fri Jul 16, 2021 9:42 pm

Leovinus wrote:
bikerthai wrote:
Slug71 wrote:
I see no reason they couldn't have had the opportunity. China has bought, and produced a lot of Russian hardware. J-15 for example.


The reasons is obvious. The Chinese believe they can design and build a better airplane.

And for the other country who had experienced in building Russian fighter through licensing? India will have access to build western fighter through licensing.

bt


India, while having been burnt plenty by Russia, is still a major customer of theirs. With some mending of wounds perhaps Russia can ingratiate themselves with India enough to gain them as customer? Perhaps as partner even as the HAL AMCA project seems to be for a rather similar plane to the rumoured Russian one.

As long as India's Army dominates defence spending, there simply isn't enough money to spend on multiple 5th gen programmes.

AMCA is a great deal larger (and hopefully more capable) than this aircraft, and uses mostly domestic or western sub-systems, so Russia is not a logical partner. India is also no longer as close to Russia as it once was, especially now that the relationship has turned mostly transactional and Russia has been supplying high end hardware to China and Pakistan, sales that used to be complete no-nos up until a decade or so ago.
 
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alberchico
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Re: New Russian Fighter Jet

Fri Jul 16, 2021 10:21 pm

Considering that Argentina only recently tried to buy some armed trainers,( which fell through) I don't know why Russia thinks that country is a potential customer. ​I also don't see a country like the UAE considering this aircraft. It's been widely speculated that in exchange for normalizing relations with Israel, the path would be paved for them to acquire the F-35.

Getting India involved as a partner would also be a difficult. A big reason why the SU-57 deal collapsed was because India insisted on a level of technology transfer that Russia was not comfortable with. Maybe as an export only product with downgraded technology they could share more with potential partners.

But in my opinion Russia should just concentrate all their resources on putting the definitive version of the SU-57 into full scale production and try to get the costs down enough to make it enticing to export customers.
 
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Antaras
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Re: New Russian Fighter Jet

Fri Jul 16, 2021 11:24 pm

angad84 wrote:
I doubt Vietnam will.

I am sure that Vietnam will be very interested in this new fighter. If the Su-22 would be retired in the next 10 years so VPAF's fleet only consists of Su-27SK/UBK, Su-30MK2, and potentially Su-35S and Su-57E/M which are all heavy fighters, we need a light fighter for low-intensity patrol and close-range combat. We have been looking for something "light" from Russia since the retirement of the legendary MiG-21 and now, will we get our answer?
 
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alberchico
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Re: New Russian Fighter Jet

Sat Jul 17, 2021 12:09 am

Antaras wrote:
angad84 wrote:
I doubt Vietnam will.

I am sure that Vietnam will be very interested in this new fighter. If the Su-22 would be retired in the next 10 years so VPAF's fleet only consists of Su-27SK/UBK, Su-30MK2, and potentially Su-35S and Su-57E/M which are all heavy fighters, we need a light fighter for low-intensity patrol and close-range combat. We have been looking for something "light" from Russia since the retirement of the legendary MiG-21 and now, will we get our answer?


If Vietnam needed a smaller cheaper fighter to take the burden off their more expensive assets, then why didn't they ever purchase the Mig-29 ? That was Russia's replacement for the Mig-21 right ?
 
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Antaras
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Re: New Russian Fighter Jet

Sat Jul 17, 2021 2:11 am

alberchico wrote:
Antaras wrote:
angad84 wrote:
I doubt Vietnam will.

I am sure that Vietnam will be very interested in this new fighter. If the Su-22 would be retired in the next 10 years so VPAF's fleet only consists of Su-27SK/UBK, Su-30MK2, and potentially Su-35S and Su-57E/M which are all heavy fighters, we need a light fighter for low-intensity patrol and close-range combat. We have been looking for something "light" from Russia since the retirement of the legendary MiG-21 and now, will we get our answer?


If Vietnam needed a smaller cheaper fighter to take the burden off their more expensive assets, then why didn't they ever purchase the Mig-29 ? That was Russia's replacement for the Mig-21 right ?

1. MiG-29 is still too costly and heavy, as it is still a twinjet.
2. We almost choose the MiG-29 in the 90s but we had chosen the Su-27 and then the Su-30MK2 instead because of its limited range (cannot go full load from Thành Sơn or Biên Hòa AFB to the Spratly Island and come back?!)
3. No further investments were made since the retirement of the MiG-21 in 2014-2015 due to lack of money and demand (10 Su-27SK/UBK + 36 Su-30MK2 + 34 Su-22M3K/M4 were enough), and now when we have demand, the new jet is coming at the right moment. Again, Vietnam is still not in love with any MiG-29 variants including the MiG-35.
 
RJMAZ
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Re: New Russian Fighter Jet

Sat Jul 17, 2021 3:36 am

Antaras wrote:
1. MiG-29 is still too costly and heavy, as it is still a twinjet.

Aircraft weight now plays a much smaller part to the purchase and operating costs of a fighter jet. Aluminium does not cost much to purchase and maintain.

An engine designed for very low maintenance such as the GE F404 would allow a twin engine fighter to be cheaper than a single AL-31 engine with all other costs being equal.

It will be hard for Russia to sell the idea that their new fighter will be cheaper to operate because it is smaller.

Many Asian countries could have purchased the cheap JF-17 that is Gripen sized and uses a single engine from the Mig-29 or the J-10 that is F-16 sized that uses a single engine from the SU-27.

Western built armed trainers are much more popular replacement for old Russian aircraft such as the mig-21. The Hawk and T-50 are good examples where they is pulling more than their fair share. The more expensive aircraft often remain grounded due to maintainence.

The armed variant of the T-7 Red Hawk will dominate against any budget orientated single engine Russian or Chinese aircraft.
 
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Antaras
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Re: New Russian Fighter Jet

Sat Jul 17, 2021 4:48 am

RJMAZ wrote:
Antaras wrote:
1. MiG-29 is still too costly and heavy, as it is still a twinjet.

Aircraft weight now plays a much smaller part to the purchase and operating costs of a fighter jet. Aluminium does not cost much to purchase and maintain.

An engine designed for very low maintenance such as the GE F404 would allow a twin engine fighter to be cheaper than a single AL-31 engine with all other costs being equal.

It will be hard for Russia to sell the idea that their new fighter will be cheaper to operate because it is smaller.

Many Asian countries could have purchased the cheap JF-17 that is Gripen sized and uses a single engine from the Mig-29 or the J-10 that is F-16 sized that uses a single engine from the SU-27.

Western built armed trainers are much more popular replacement for old Russian aircraft such as the mig-21. The Hawk and T-50 are good examples where they is pulling more than their fair share. The more expensive aircraft often remain grounded due to maintainence.

The armed variant of the T-7 Red Hawk will dominate against any budget orientated single engine Russian or Chinese aircraft.

But with MiG-29/-35 were denied for any reasons from Vietnam but the demand for a light fighter is still there, I think that Vietnam would be still the most potential customer for this type.
The MiG are basically so close to the bigger Sukhoi, and Vietnam might one something lighter than that.
 
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BawliBooch
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Re: New Russian Fighter Jet

Sat Jul 17, 2021 11:06 am

Leovinus wrote:
India, while having been burnt plenty by Russia, is still a major customer of theirs. With some mending of wounds perhaps Russia can ingratiate themselves with India enough to gain them as customer? Perhaps as partner even as the HAL AMCA project seems to be for a rather similar plane to the rumoured Russian one.


The Indian press is not a reliable source for news. Some Indian journalists are so blinded by the prospect of getting to ride in the cockpit of a Boeing FA/18 or free air tickets to Singapore and Dubai, they lose track of objectivity in their reporting! They prefer to base their news reports on PR handouts from the Companies! ;)

The reality is that, having burnt its hands with Western suppliers in the past multiple times, India is pretty happy with Russia as a reliable defense partner. Sukhoi has become the backbone of the IAF for a reason.

Russian are aircraft are cheaper to acquire but have a higher "lifetime" cost. Western aircraft are the other way around. However the fear of Western sanctions crippling the war fighting capability has ensured that India continues to base its armed forces around Russian equipment. The crippling effect that British sanctions had on India's naval capabilities during Kargil has not been forgotten! The grounding of the Sea King and Harrier fleets is seared into memory!

Journalists hanging out at BAe and Boeing stalls during Aero-India might think differently of course! ;)
 
firemansparky
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Re: New Russian Fighter Jet

Sat Jul 17, 2021 11:43 am

Per AP News, the fighter being presented is built by Sukhoi:

https://apnews.com/article/lifestyle-bu ... 32a2bafcbc
 
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bikerthai
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Re: New Russian Fighter Jet

Sat Jul 17, 2021 2:08 pm

BawliBooch wrote:
However the fear of Western sanctions crippling the war fighting capability has ensured that India continues to base its armed forces around Russian equipment.


Old news.

The fear has not stop India from purchasing P-8A, CH-47, AH-64 and C-17. In return India has gain valuable manufacturing experience and has wedged itself into Boeing's manufacturing pipeline for both commercial and military hardware, including AH-64 fuselages, P-8A mission racks, CH-47 door ramp. The partnership is pulling India manufacturers into the digital manufacturing age. Will buying/building the next generation of Russian fighter do the same thing?

India has a law that military purchase require a percentage of Industrial offsets. Which manufacturer has a better chance of providing that offset?

Let's just say the journalists were not the only ones blinded by the largess.

bt

PS. As long as China is considered as a military threat to the US, I don't think India will need to worry about being on the wrong side of US sanctions. Just don't let the Chinese snoop around the P-8's like what the Pakistanies did with the P-3.
 
angad84
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Re: New Russian Fighter Jet

Sat Jul 17, 2021 9:05 pm

bikerthai wrote:
Old news.

Not quite. CAATSA is a very serious issue that constantly threatens to derail the bilateral relationship, and two successive US admins (Trump-R, Biden-D) have done sweet nothing to allay any concerns India has regarding the legislation.

Even if it ends up resolved to everyone's satisfaction, the fact that it's lingered so long will leave a bad taste, at least in New Delhi. Huge own-goal by the US.

All that said, however, I strongly disagree with the idea that the Indian Air Force is a likely customer for this aircraft. The Indian government, however... there's no telling which way they will break. And as we all know, that distinction is not academic.
 
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BawliBooch
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Re: New Russian Fighter Jet

Sat Jul 17, 2021 11:06 pm

bikerthai wrote:
The fear has not stop India from purchasing P-8A, CH-47, AH-64 and C-17. In return India has gain valuable manufacturing experience and has wedged itself into Boeing's manufacturing pipeline for both commercial and military hardware, including AH-64 fuselages, P-8A mission racks, CH-47 door ramp. The partnership is pulling India manufacturers into the digital manufacturing age. Will buying/building the next generation of Russian fighter do the same thing?

Only the fuselage of the AH-64 is assembled from Kits by an Indian partner. All the other aircraft mentioned are purchased off the shelf and provide no long term advantage in terms of building up industrial capacity any more than what they already have. India has been manufacturing all the Migs (21, 23, 27,29) as well as Su-30s locally for decades! This is in addition to other projects like Brahmos cruise missiles (joint development with Russia), Avro HS-748 and Dornier 228 . India has had a well developed industrial base right from the 1940s when HAL, Bangalore was maintaining and manufacturing parts for USAAF assets in Asia-Pacific. What they lack is an effective R&D base and I dont think the Americans or British have been helpful in building that up. Russia, Israel and France otoh have a solid record in this area.

bikerthai wrote:
India has a law that military purchase require a percentage of Industrial offsets. Which manufacturer has a better chance of providing that offset?

Thank you for pointing it out. Russia provides all the tech transfers and assistance for complete local manufacture of aircraft. Ditto for France and Israel with items like components and avionics. America and Britain have not come anywhere close to that level of cooperation.


bikerthai wrote:
As long as China is considered as a military threat to the US, I don't think India will need to worry about being on the wrong side of US sanctions. Just don't let the Chinese snoop around the P-8's like what the Pakistanies did with the P-3.

China was a threat to the US even in the 90's. Is that even a factor? I am sure even the Americans realise that the defense of US interests vv China lies in the Pacific and ASEAN countries.

PS: Between Communism and Fascism, the US will chose Fascism? "None of the above" is not an option for Policy Makers?

Is it THAT simple?

I am sure even Indian policy makers are aware that sooner or later the Western democracies will awaken to the horrors of Fascism and that puts the current Indian regime in serious trouble. Which is why the Indians will continue to diversify and duplicate their sources for military hardware with a strong tilt towards Russia.

I have no doubt the new Russian Fighter Jet will find a place in the new India - they just have to find one of Dear Leaders corrupt cronies to partner with. Boeing found Tata, Dassault found Ambani. Russia could partner with Adani Group!
 
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bikerthai
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Re: New Russian Fighter Jet

Sun Jul 18, 2021 4:01 am

BawliBooch wrote:
Only the fuselage of the AH-64 is assembled from Kits by an Indian partner.


Then you do not understand the nature of the contract and why Boeing had the AH-64 fuselage and the other components in India.

BawliBooch wrote:
Russia provides all the tech transfers and assistance for complete local manufacture of aircraft.


But will Russia provide contracts to where the real money is made, building components for commercial airlines?

BawliBooch wrote:
Ditto for France


Agreed, I've seen fine components for the A320 built in India for Airbus.

I've also seen how the India supplier built parts for the Russian fighter back in 2008. Even back then the technology used was obsolete compared to the cabinets that India used to build cabinets for the P-8A or the pylons they built for the A320.

bt
Last edited by bikerthai on Sun Jul 18, 2021 4:08 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: New Russian Fighter Jet

Sun Jul 18, 2021 4:06 am

BawliBooch wrote:
Boeing found Tata, Dassault found Ambani. Russia could partner with Adani Group!


It's more than just finding a partner. It is about establishing a working relationship down to line engineers and machinist of lowest subcontractors.

bt
 
art
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Re: New Russian Fighter Jet

Sun Jul 18, 2021 9:36 am

Antaras wrote:
I am sure that Vietnam will be very interested in this new fighter. If the Su-22 would be retired in the next 10 years so VPAF's fleet only consists of Su-27SK/UBK, Su-30MK2, and potentially Su-35S and Su-57E/M which are all heavy fighters, we need a light fighter for low-intensity patrol and close-range combat. We have been looking for something "light" from Russia since the retirement of the legendary MiG-21 and now, will we get our answer?


Has Vietnam considered India's upcoming MWF? American F414 engine, combat range 1,500km (from Wiki), relatively cheap Indian weapons integrated. I imagine low running costs. Not available for 5/6/7 years - would that be too late?
 
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SeamanBeaumont
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Re: New Russian Fighter Jet

Sun Jul 18, 2021 12:23 pm

Slug71 wrote:
SeamanBeaumont wrote:
Slug71 wrote:

Agreed. They should have taken the opportunity to license build the FC-31. Would be far cheaper than trying to do a clean sheet, and increase the opportunity for foreign sales of the FC-31. If this is true, it will just be another expensive low rate production aircraft.

How and why does Russia licence build a prototype aircraft and are you saying Russia even had an opportunity to? Seems some bonkers claims to me.


I see no reason they couldn't have had the opportunity. China has bought, and produced a lot of Russian hardware. J-15 for example.


The bonkers continues, the Chinese have bought Russian aircraft but only a limited number of Su-27s were coproduced. the chinese have literally copied the Su-27 as the J-11 and in some cases improved on the designs such as the J-16. They bought the Su-33 on which the J-15 is based not from Russia but from the Ukraine because after asking the Russians for just two Su-33s the Russians wisely said no because they knew the Chinese were going to copy it.

Can you name a single other co-production agreement between the two?

Just so you understand, Russia and China are very much competitors in the aircraft market, selling to those nations who can't get western designs. Same with ships, SAMS, tanks, artillery, trucks, soon helicopters etc etc etc. They are not friends and Russia rightly fears a raging Chinese export of military weapons as a direct threat.
Last edited by SeamanBeaumont on Sun Jul 18, 2021 12:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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SeamanBeaumont
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Re: New Russian Fighter Jet

Sun Jul 18, 2021 12:31 pm

art wrote:
Antaras wrote:
I am sure that Vietnam will be very interested in this new fighter. If the Su-22 would be retired in the next 10 years so VPAF's fleet only consists of Su-27SK/UBK, Su-30MK2, and potentially Su-35S and Su-57E/M which are all heavy fighters, we need a light fighter for low-intensity patrol and close-range combat. We have been looking for something "light" from Russia since the retirement of the legendary MiG-21 and now, will we get our answer?


Has Vietnam considered India's upcoming MWF? American F414 engine, combat range 1,500km (from Wiki), relatively cheap Indian weapons integrated. I imagine low running costs. Not available for 5/6/7 years - would that be too late?

Ha, 5/6/7 years is about half what it would take Russia to bring this new aircraft to production anyway. It isn't like the Su-57 is "flying Off" the production line...
 
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Antaras
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Re: New Russian Fighter Jet

Sun Jul 18, 2021 6:30 pm

art wrote:
Antaras wrote:
I am sure that Vietnam will be very interested in this new fighter. If the Su-22 would be retired in the next 10 years so VPAF's fleet only consists of Su-27SK/UBK, Su-30MK2, and potentially Su-35S and Su-57E/M which are all heavy fighters, we need a light fighter for low-intensity patrol and close-range combat. We have been looking for something "light" from Russia since the retirement of the legendary MiG-21 and now, will we get our answer?


Has Vietnam considered India's upcoming MWF? American F414 engine, combat range 1,500km (from Wiki), relatively cheap Indian weapons integrated. I imagine low running costs. Not available for 5/6/7 years - would that be too late?

Just the phrase "American engine" makes it entirely not potential for Vietnam. The US will try to block the deal or to set conditions with Vietnam in any way, and if there would be not struggle then Vietnam would have gone with the JAS-39 and the F-16 instead.
 
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Slug71
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Re: New Russian Fighter Jet

Sun Jul 18, 2021 8:45 pm

SeamanBeaumont wrote:
Slug71 wrote:
SeamanBeaumont wrote:
How and why does Russia licence build a prototype aircraft and are you saying Russia even had an opportunity to? Seems some bonkers claims to me.


I see no reason they couldn't have had the opportunity. China has bought, and produced a lot of Russian hardware. J-15 for example.


The bonkers continues, the Chinese have bought Russian aircraft but only a limited number of Su-27s were coproduced. the chinese have literally copied the Su-27 as the J-11 and in some cases improved on the designs such as the J-16. They bought the Su-33 on which the J-15 is based not from Russia but from the Ukraine because after asking the Russians for just two Su-33s the Russians wisely said no because they knew the Chinese were going to copy it.

Can you name a single other co-production agreement between the two?

Just so you understand, Russia and China are very much competitors in the aircraft market, selling to those nations who can't get western designs. Same with ships, SAMS, tanks, artillery, trucks, soon helicopters etc etc etc. They are not friends and Russia rightly fears a raging Chinese export of military weapons as a direct threat.


CRAIC 929

And ever heard of BRICS? They are absolutely friends.
 
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SeamanBeaumont
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Re: New Russian Fighter Jet

Sun Jul 18, 2021 10:28 pm

Slug71 wrote:
SeamanBeaumont wrote:
Slug71 wrote:

I see no reason they couldn't have had the opportunity. China has bought, and produced a lot of Russian hardware. J-15 for example.


The bonkers continues, the Chinese have bought Russian aircraft but only a limited number of Su-27s were coproduced. the chinese have literally copied the Su-27 as the J-11 and in some cases improved on the designs such as the J-16. They bought the Su-33 on which the J-15 is based not from Russia but from the Ukraine because after asking the Russians for just two Su-33s the Russians wisely said no because they knew the Chinese were going to copy it.

Can you name a single other co-production agreement between the two?

Just so you understand, Russia and China are very much competitors in the aircraft market, selling to those nations who can't get western designs. Same with ships, SAMS, tanks, artillery, trucks, soon helicopters etc etc etc. They are not friends and Russia rightly fears a raging Chinese export of military weapons as a direct threat.


CRAIC 929

And ever heard of BRICS? They are absolutely friends.

Slugman, a commercial transport is not what we are talking about and a terrible example of China Russia cooperation anyway. BRICS has both India and China as members, border clashes and long standing tensions and continued massive military build-up between them. I think you need to re-imagine what "Friends" and BRICS means or you can just bonkers along your merry way.
 
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alberchico
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Re: New Russian Fighter Jet

Mon Jul 19, 2021 1:31 am

 
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Slug71
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Re: New Russian Fighter Jet

Mon Jul 19, 2021 1:53 am

SeamanBeaumont wrote:
Slug71 wrote:
SeamanBeaumont wrote:

The bonkers continues, the Chinese have bought Russian aircraft but only a limited number of Su-27s were coproduced. the chinese have literally copied the Su-27 as the J-11 and in some cases improved on the designs such as the J-16. They bought the Su-33 on which the J-15 is based not from Russia but from the Ukraine because after asking the Russians for just two Su-33s the Russians wisely said no because they knew the Chinese were going to copy it.

Can you name a single other co-production agreement between the two?

Just so you understand, Russia and China are very much competitors in the aircraft market, selling to those nations who can't get western designs. Same with ships, SAMS, tanks, artillery, trucks, soon helicopters etc etc etc. They are not friends and Russia rightly fears a raging Chinese export of military weapons as a direct threat.


CRAIC 929

And ever heard of BRICS? They are absolutely friends.

Slugman, a commercial transport is not what we are talking about and a terrible example of China Russia cooperation anyway. BRICS has both India and China as members, border clashes and long standing tensions and continued massive military build-up between them. I think you need to re-imagine what "Friends" and BRICS means or you can just bonkers along your merry way.


I'm not sure why you're being condescending. You said, and I quote, "Can you name a single other co-production agreement between the two". I did. Don't move the goal posts when I answer the question, and be an ass.

China also recently acquired Su-35 aircraft. I'm sure they'd be happy to sell Russia some FC-31s.
 
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SeamanBeaumont
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Re: New Russian Fighter Jet

Mon Jul 19, 2021 2:00 am

Slug71 wrote:
SeamanBeaumont wrote:
Slug71 wrote:

CRAIC 929

And ever heard of BRICS? They are absolutely friends.

Slugman, a commercial transport is not what we are talking about and a terrible example of China Russia cooperation anyway. BRICS has both India and China as members, border clashes and long standing tensions and continued massive military build-up between them. I think you need to re-imagine what "Friends" and BRICS means or you can just bonkers along your merry way.


I'm not sure why you're being condescending. You said, and I quote, "Can you name a single other co-production agreement between the two". I did. Don't move the goal posts when I answer the question, and be an ass.

China also recently acquired Su-35 aircraft. I'm sure they'd be happy to sell Russia some FC-31s.

Slugman, the whole discussion and the other projects I said were military, we aren't in the civilian area here. You haven't acknowledged you were wrong about the J-15 and haven't given and justification for any other claims, ignoring the BRICs bonkers as well.

So back to the original stupidness, how can Russia buy some FC-31s that are only one maybe two prototypes that won't be ready for production for 10 years. China doesn't even operate them!!!!!
 
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Slug71
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Re: New Russian Fighter Jet

Mon Jul 19, 2021 3:04 am

SeamanBeaumont wrote:
Slug71 wrote:
SeamanBeaumont wrote:
Slugman, a commercial transport is not what we are talking about and a terrible example of China Russia cooperation anyway. BRICS has both India and China as members, border clashes and long standing tensions and continued massive military build-up between them. I think you need to re-imagine what "Friends" and BRICS means or you can just bonkers along your merry way.


I'm not sure why you're being condescending. You said, and I quote, "Can you name a single other co-production agreement between the two". I did. Don't move the goal posts when I answer the question, and be an ass.

China also recently acquired Su-35 aircraft. I'm sure they'd be happy to sell Russia some FC-31s.

Slugman, the whole discussion and the other projects I said were military, we aren't in the civilian area here. You haven't acknowledged you were wrong about the J-15 and haven't given and justification for any other claims, ignoring the BRICs bonkers as well.

So back to the original stupidness, how can Russia buy some FC-31s that are only one maybe two prototypes that won't be ready for production for 10 years. China doesn't even operate them!!!!!


Except you never said a military example. You said "a single other" agreement. Which I did. And I'm not exactly wrong about the J-15. I didn't know that they acquired a single Su-33 prototype from Ukraine. However, most of the J-15 development came from the Su-27s they acquired from Russia. And still operate. They no doubt reverse engineered some improvements from the Su-33, which did upset Russia.
The J-15 further developed into the J-16. China also has Su-30s. But given that Russia still supplies engines, there is obviously some sort of compensation going on. And Russia still allowed them to acquire the much newer Su-35.

There is at least 3 prototypes of the FC-31, the wings and vertical tails have changes among all three. This is a lot further along than Russia's new mockup, which currently has to be towed around. Pooling their cash flow together would obviously have production advantages and speed things up.

I really dont get why you're so upset by this.
 
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SeamanBeaumont
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Re: New Russian Fighter Jet

Mon Jul 19, 2021 5:43 am

Slug71 wrote:
SeamanBeaumont wrote:
Slug71 wrote:

I'm not sure why you're being condescending. You said, and I quote, "Can you name a single other co-production agreement between the two". I did. Don't move the goal posts when I answer the question, and be an ass.

China also recently acquired Su-35 aircraft. I'm sure they'd be happy to sell Russia some FC-31s.

Slugman, the whole discussion and the other projects I said were military, we aren't in the civilian area here. You haven't acknowledged you were wrong about the J-15 and haven't given and justification for any other claims, ignoring the BRICs bonkers as well.

So back to the original stupidness, how can Russia buy some FC-31s that are only one maybe two prototypes that won't be ready for production for 10 years. China doesn't even operate them!!!!!


Except you never said a military example. You said "a single other" agreement. Which I did. And I'm not exactly wrong about the J-15. I didn't know that they acquired a single Su-33 prototype from Ukraine. However, most of the J-15 development came from the Su-27s they acquired from Russia. And still operate. They no doubt reverse engineered some improvements from the Su-33, which did upset Russia.
The J-15 further developed into the J-16. China also has Su-30s. But given that Russia still supplies engines, there is obviously some sort of compensation going on. And Russia still allowed them to acquire the much newer Su-35.

There is at least 3 prototypes of the FC-31, the wings and vertical tails have changes among all three. This is a lot further along than Russia's new mockup, which currently has to be towed around. Pooling their cash flow together would obviously have production advantages and speed things up.

I really dont get why you're so upset by this.

Again, one poor example outside of what we are rugging about does not a justification make.

Why I care, because you are spouting stuff like it is true when it is actually rubbish. FYI J-16 came from J-11 not J-15, they are totally different aircraft. If you can't get the basic poo right then what else also smells funny?
 
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Leovinus
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Re: New Russian Fighter Jet

Mon Jul 19, 2021 11:25 am

Well, whatever debate is going to follow on this, I do like it. Reminds me a bit of a F-16 and a Su-57.

Image
 
744SPX
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Re: New Russian Fighter Jet

Mon Jul 19, 2021 1:30 pm

Essentially a single engine SU-57. Looks like it uses the same cockpit (makes sense) and wings/tail surfaces look similar with the difference of not having horizontal tails. Looks to be aerodynamically superior to the F-35 with better area-ruling and fewer control surfaces. But then it doesn't have to be capable of STOVL flight. Probably not as stealthy. This might be closer to what the F-35 would look like if it wasn't for the Marines.

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