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Max Q
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Can a new, replacement ISS be built without the space shuttle ?

Sun Aug 01, 2021 7:20 pm

The current ISS is not getting any younger and eventually it will have to be abandoned and de orbited


Hopefully there’s a plan for a replacement in the works but how difficult will this be without the enormous payload capacity of the shuttle both in weight and volume ?


Would it even be possible to transport the required modules into orbit with today’s commercial spacecraft?
 
texl1649
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Re: Can a new, replacement ISS be built without the space shuttle ?

Sun Aug 01, 2021 7:53 pm

Axiom has some interesting plans/visions for a private replacement. Their module/system on the ISS is sort of a step toward that. I do think private, ‘inflated’ modules are most likely the cheapest/most efficient options. If Starship works out, cost-wise, I could see a lot of creative solutions using it to LEO orbit stations.

The ISS probably has at least 10 years left in it, but it is sort of approaching obsolescence, as well.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo ... r-BB1cymkh

I think OAC lacks funding to do this stuff, but it’s interesting, conceptually;

https://www.space.com/orbital-assembly- ... avity-2025
 
mxaxai
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Re: Can a new, replacement ISS be built without the space shuttle ?

Sun Aug 01, 2021 8:33 pm

Payload capacity is not the issue. The shuttle was important for the ISS because its robotic arm and airlocks made assembly much easier.

In the past 20 years, automatic docking systems have been developed. This way, you could launch the modules first - with a Falcon Heavy or similar large launchers - assemble them remotely, and bring the humans in later once everything is warm and cozy. The new Chinese station is doing this, on a much smaller scale.

However, the ISS is also very expensive. With the US focusing on their new lunar program and both Russia and China being reluctant to enter new cooperations, I fear that there is no money for a true replacement.
 
ThePointblank
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Re: Can a new, replacement ISS be built without the space shuttle ?

Sun Aug 01, 2021 10:35 pm

The biggest module with the ISS is the Japanese Kibo module, and while it was launched with the Space Shuttle, it will fit within the fairing for Vulcan Centaur with the 70ft fairing. Most of the other modules can fit in the Delta IV with the 62.7ft long fairing. Falcon's fairing is just a bit too small for any of the ISS modules, until SpaceX has their extended fairings ready.

The Russian modules of course were launched on Russian Proton rockets.
 
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alberchico
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Re: Can a new, replacement ISS be built without the space shuttle ?

Mon Aug 02, 2021 12:20 am

Short answer is yes. Keep in mind the Soviets assembled Mir in orbit without a space shuttle. Not to mention that there are advanced versions of the SLS in development that will carry a payload equal to that of the Saturn V. That would be very useful if you need to haul massive modules into orbit, as was done with Skylab. I strongly believe that there will be a successor to the ISS, but it will be much smaller, and maybe incorporate the inflatable technology that's been in development for several years now.

Image
Last edited by alberchico on Mon Aug 02, 2021 12:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
texl1649
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Re: Can a new, replacement ISS be built without the space shuttle ?

Mon Aug 02, 2021 12:27 am

alberchico wrote:
Short answer is yes. Keep in mind the Soviets assembled Mir in orbit without a space shuttle. Not to mention that there are advanced versions of the SLS in development that will carry a payload equal to that of the Saturn V. That would be very useful if you need to haul massive modules in orbit, as was done with Skylab. I strongly believe that there will be a successor to the ISS, but it will be much smaller, and maybe incorporate the inflatable technology that's been in development for several years now.

Image


An SLS boondoggle to launch a NASA-owned ISS replacement is ludicrous, respectfully. IT is also implausible. The SLS is only able to ever achieve about 2 launches per year, based on the infrastructure required. Desperate attempts to find missions for the SLS are not justifiable.

https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-b ... -a-decade/

https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/07 ... -payloads/
 
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alberchico
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Re: Can a new, replacement ISS be built without the space shuttle ?

Mon Aug 02, 2021 12:40 am

texl1649 wrote:
alberchico wrote:
Short answer is yes. Keep in mind the Soviets assembled Mir in orbit without a space shuttle. Not to mention that there are advanced versions of the SLS in development that will carry a payload equal to that of the Saturn V. That would be very useful if you need to haul massive modules in orbit, as was done with Skylab. I strongly believe that there will be a successor to the ISS, but it will be much smaller, and maybe incorporate the inflatable technology that's been in development for several years now.

Image


An SLS boondoggle to launch a NASA-owned ISS replacement is ludicrous, respectfully. IT is also implausible. The SLS is only able to ever achieve about 2 launches per year, based on the infrastructure required. Desperate attempts to find missions for the SLS are not justifiable.

https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-b ... -a-decade/

https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/07 ... -payloads/


I agree with you that SLS is a creature of politics, but what if the Starship project runs into severe technical problems during its development ? Then what ? You gotta have some kind of Plan B. Look at how SpaceX struggled with the development of the Falcon Heavy. I believe Musk at one point said they came close to considering pulling the plug on the project.

Edit: found the article that pointed this out:

https://www.engadget.com/2018-02-08-spa ... erson.html

"It turns out, though, that the development of the rocket was much more difficult than anticipated, to the point where Elon Musk admitted to the press that the project was almost canceled three separate times."
 
FGITD
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Re: Can a new, replacement ISS be built without the space shuttle ?

Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:03 am

Admittedly I don’t know a whole lot about SLS as for years it never seemed like it would ever be a real rocket, but I think the logistics and cost behind it pretty much dictate that it’s a once or twice a year launcher. It’s the modern Saturn V, and it will be incredibly impressive to actually watch it go.

Regarding future space space stations, I think smaller will be the way forward. ISS is a really massive station, and I think smaller might offer more flexibility.

But the US seems quite adamant that it’s time to get back to the moon. And it’s hard to argue with that. No space station will ever garner the same attention as a moon landing
 
RJMAZ
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Re: Can a new, replacement ISS be built without the space shuttle ?

Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:28 am

I doubt there will be an international space station ever again. We will definitely have a private SpaceX space station. It will probably have a hotel with starships launching guests from multiple cities each day. A few thousand dollars for half a day including a space walk. A special marriage proposal deck where you can propose outside looking down at earth.

Common sense dictates that it will most likely be a ring shape that can spin to create gravity. I'd estimate 5-6m diameter sections that fit inside cargo versions starship. Once complete and operational they will no doubt make larger rings
 
ZaphodHarkonnen
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Re: Can a new, replacement ISS be built without the space shuttle ?

Thu Aug 05, 2021 1:18 am

Yeah. Putting something up in orbit the size of the ISS or bigger is totally doable without the Space Shuttle. Now the modules will need their own on orbit manuvering systems to reach and get close together. But you can still use a robotic arm on one module to start assembling them together. This idea was already shown with things like the JAXA, ESA, SpaceX, and OrbitalATK supply launches. Where they would get close, stop in a certain box, and then the Canadarm2 would reach down, grab it, and dock it with the station at one of the ports designed for further ISS expansion.

If you throw the reduction in launch costs with the inflatable tech the Bigelow was so close to putting into production before the whole company got rid of all staff and went into hibernation. Well, future space stations, even purely commercial, are likely to be as big or bigger than the ISS.

I would expect the ISS follow on station will have a lot more focus on how to introduce and decommission modules. As that will be very important on the timescale of generations. And a lot more focus on making it easier to use telerobotics to do more and more of the maintenance and assembly.

Any follow station will also have to have a major investment in reducing the 24/7 ground support needed. A massive part of the ISS cost is not the stuff in orbit. It's the truly mammoth system on the ground to keep it going.

EDIT: Got the ESA bit wrong. The ATV used the Russian system.

The other three did use the system described. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-II_Transfer_Vehicle
 
chimborazo
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Re: Can a new, replacement ISS be built without the space shuttle ?

Sun Aug 08, 2021 4:26 pm

Max Q wrote:
The current ISS is not getting any younger and eventually it will have to be abandoned and de orbited


Hopefully there’s a plan for a replacement in the works but how difficult will this be without the enormous payload capacity of the shuttle both in weight and volume ?


Would it even be possible to transport the required modules into orbit with today’s commercial spacecraft?


A thought: why does there have to be a “new” ISS in an absolute sense? What about detaching and de-orbiting the tired sections and replacing with new? Section by section there can then be a “new” ISS. By its inherent modular design, it can theoretically go on forever. It may need some kind of special system sending up that attaches retros to the redundant parts to send them into burn up. And maybe also features a system to lift ISS to a higher orbit (I’m not clear if it has decayed/will decay and become unrecoverable). The benefit is that you keep what you got and improve while cutting away the expired parts.

Trigger’s Broom (17 new heads and 14 new handles in its time) method:


http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=56yN2zHtofM

(1:30 on although it’s all well worth watching)
 
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Spiderguy252
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Re: Can a new, replacement ISS be built without the space shuttle ?

Sun Aug 08, 2021 4:30 pm

Of course a space station can be assembled without a space shuttle. The Russians didn't have a shuttle for Mir, and the Americans assembled the likes of Skylab back in the 1970s.

The space shuttle was used for the ISS only because it was there. Not to mention using a 2000 ton orbiter to lift up 25 ton pieces was terrible inefficient.
 
mxaxai
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Re: Can a new, replacement ISS be built without the space shuttle ?

Sun Aug 08, 2021 5:02 pm

Spiderguy252 wrote:
the Americans assembled the likes of Skylab back in the 1970s.

Minor correction: Skylab was not assembled, it was launched in one piece on an old Saturn V booster.

One reason to use the Space Shuttle was certainly that neither the US nor the EU had a working automated docking system in the 1990s. Russia pioneered the technology in the 60s and 70s. The first EU vehicle to do so was the ATV in 2008, and the US followed much later with Dragon 2 in 2019.
 
FGITD
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Re: Can a new, replacement ISS be built without the space shuttle ?

Sun Aug 08, 2021 5:26 pm

mxaxai wrote:
Spiderguy252 wrote:
the Americans assembled the likes of Skylab back in the 1970s.

Minor correction: Skylab was not assembled, it was launched in one piece on an old Saturn V booster.

One reason to use the Space Shuttle was certainly that neither the US nor the EU had a working automated docking system in the 1990s. Russia pioneered the technology in the 60s and 70s. The first EU vehicle to do so was the ATV in 2008, and the US followed much later with Dragon 2 in 2019.


Skylab was about as simple as a space station can be, in that regard. Very clever solution from NASA though. It’s too bad more of the Apollo applications projects never became reality.

The automated docking timeline always puzzled me. I recall the Russians had some early issues with manual docking, and thus went with automated. (Although the Salyut 7 rescue, in which the pilot managed to manually dock with a tumbling/spinning space station is absolutely incredible)

Can’t help but wonder how much the Mercury 7 test pilot attitude impacted the American approach. They wanted to fly the spacecraft, and so they were given more autonomy and control. Even on Gemini, which I believe was some of the more complicated docking, it was hand flown.
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: Can a new, replacement ISS be built without the space shuttle ?

Thu Aug 12, 2021 7:12 pm

FGITD wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
Spiderguy252 wrote:
the Americans assembled the likes of Skylab back in the 1970s.

Minor correction: Skylab was not assembled, it was launched in one piece on an old Saturn V booster.

One reason to use the Space Shuttle was certainly that neither the US nor the EU had a working automated docking system in the 1990s. Russia pioneered the technology in the 60s and 70s. The first EU vehicle to do so was the ATV in 2008, and the US followed much later with Dragon 2 in 2019.


Skylab was about as simple as a space station can be, in that regard. Very clever solution from NASA though. It’s too bad more of the Apollo applications projects never became reality.

The automated docking timeline always puzzled me. I recall the Russians had some early issues with manual docking, and thus went with automated. (Although the Salyut 7 rescue, in which the pilot managed to manually dock with a tumbling/spinning space station is absolutely incredible)

Can’t help but wonder how much the Mercury 7 test pilot attitude impacted the American approach. They wanted to fly the spacecraft, and so they were given more autonomy and control. Even on Gemini, which I believe was some of the more complicated docking, it was hand flown.


I believe you might be thinking of Dzhanibekov, who was on that Salyut 7 rescue mission. Yeah, they wrote about entering it. They didn't really know if the systems were safe to power up, as the cold visibly impacted the wire bundles. They took the risk, as without a warm-up the station was uninhabitable.

Docking -- when USSR quit the whole "humans to the Moon" thing, and focused on orbital stations, the automated docking made eminent sense. Proton and its ilk were capable of launching heavy payloads (including station modules), but were not man-rated, and early on, prone to mishaps (after ironing out the glitches, it went on onto illustrious service, until underpaid assembly line workers managed to invent workarounds against safety measures, preventing them from installing sensor packages upside down, but I digress).
Soyuz rocket was man-rated, and fairly reliable (and with reduntant ways to save the crew), but could not launch much, beyond a Soyuz or Progress ship.
So it made eminent sens to develop automated docking technology, to assemble stations in space autonomously, to be visited by humans later.

American space program focused on the moonshot. Single rocket throws everything into the orbit, than that everything travels to the Moon orbit, some of it gets to the Moon, some of that gets back up to orbit and than some of that gets to Earth. Dockings and undockings galore, true; but there are always humans around.
Considering the amount of technological challenges involved, and the timeline (rather the race) to get there -- no wonder automated docking never made it to the list of "must have" things. Because you could do without.
Apollo Applications didn't really help, either, correct? I mean, all visits to Skylab were manned. Good thing too, as Skylab was initially in need of plenty of attention, just to get it fixed...
 
GDB
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Re: Can a new, replacement ISS be built without the space shuttle ?

Sat Aug 14, 2021 10:40 am

The thing with Skylab was even after the damage not only were the first crew able to save it and do useful work, the second crew enhanced the repairs and easily completed their science missions.
A Salyut in a similar situation would have been abandoned.
Though not having scrapped their ability to do this as the US did as they went down the Shuttle rabbit hole, they could build and launch another.
 
Noshow
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Re: Can a new, replacement ISS be built without the space shuttle ?

Sun Aug 15, 2021 8:02 am

Is some oversized "political" station like ISS really necessary? What is the value in the enormous size? It's burning through all the money needing more and more while leaving not much for equally promising minor projects.
Some only mid size joint station might still be okay and better value for the money from my view.
Human space flight is fascinating but on the long run robots and AI should do all the work in space.
 
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Francoflier
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Re: Can a new, replacement ISS be built without the space shuttle ?

Sun Aug 15, 2021 10:15 am

Noshow wrote:
Is some oversized "political" station like ISS really necessary? What is the value in the enormous size?


Science...
The astronauts manning it spend the majority of their time looking after science experiments after all, and the rest looking after the station and themselves.
It's only political because no nation had the budget to get it done in its own.

I don't know how much automation, miniaturization and decreasing launch costs have made the purpose of the ISS redundant, but they still seem quite busy up there...

As for assembling the next one, I think we've moved past the need for a shuttle-type vehicle. Launching components that assemble themselves enough to be ready for a crew is very doable now. In fact, that's what China just did.
Just launch a starter kit of modules, panels and a robotic arm and you're good to go.

Hopefully the next one orbits the moon...
 
meecrob
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Re: Can a new, replacement ISS be built without the space shuttle ?

Sun Aug 15, 2021 11:50 pm

chimborazo wrote:
A thought: why does there have to be a “new” ISS in an absolute sense? What about detaching and de-orbiting the tired sections and replacing with new? Section by section there can then be a “new” ISS. By its inherent modular design, it can theoretically go on forever. It may need some kind of special system sending up that attaches retros to the redundant parts to send them into burn up. And maybe also features a system to lift ISS to a higher orbit (I’m not clear if it has decayed/will decay and become unrecoverable). The benefit is that you keep what you got and improve while cutting away the expired parts.)


I think the issue is that the oldest, and most-in-need of replacement were sent up first and form the hub. For your idea to work, they would have to disassemble the whole craft to replace the hub as first task, not eat at it, bit-by-bit from one end until you replace them all.
 
sc1207
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Re: Can a new, replacement ISS be built without the space shuttle ?

Mon Aug 16, 2021 4:53 am

Max Q wrote:
The current ISS is not getting any younger and eventually it will have to be abandoned and de orbited


Hopefully there’s a plan for a replacement in the works but how difficult will this be without the enormous payload capacity of the shuttle both in weight and volume ?


Would it even be possible to transport the required modules into orbit with today’s commercial spacecraft?


Without considering the complexities of international politics, the fact that the Chinese are putting together a space station right now should have answered the question of whether or not it is possible. Although I personally doubt that any country other than the US and Russia in the current consortium having the political will to embark on a project like that.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Can a new, replacement ISS be built without the space shuttle ?

Fri Aug 20, 2021 10:03 pm

US and Russia separately, I'm sure you mean.

I wonder about building something in space, and by that I mean doing welding and stuff like that, with robots, allowing to make something much bigger without needing hundreds of launches, what do you think ?
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Can a new, replacement ISS be built without the space shuttle ?

Fri Aug 20, 2021 10:32 pm

Laser welding in space may be doable. Titanium would be easiest to laser weld. At least you do not need to use inert gas. How do you keep the melted material from floating away though?

You can also do resistance welding. But those joints are not strong.

bt
 
angad84
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Re: Can a new, replacement ISS be built without the space shuttle ?

Sun Aug 22, 2021 12:18 pm

bikerthai wrote:
Laser welding in space may be doable. Titanium would be easiest to laser weld. At least you do not need to use inert gas. How do you keep the melted material from floating away though?

You can also do resistance welding. But those joints are not strong.

bt

maybe they wouldn't need to weld at all? Send everything up flatpacked and bolt it together. Spray on a film/films to make it airtight. Or gaskets for old school

Calling it, IKEA is the next SpaceX
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Can a new, replacement ISS be built without the space shuttle ?

Sun Aug 22, 2021 12:39 pm

angad84 wrote:
maybe they wouldn't need to weld at all? Send everything up flatpacked and bolt it together.


Bolt joints always carry along unnecessary weight but it does simplify construction specially with digital manudacturing.

One thing to worry about with space manufacturing is the thermal expansion of the assemblies on the solar vs dark side.

Untill you can set up a temporary spray booth in space, spraying stuff is not a good idea as you'll more likely contaminate other stuff. A robot with an Injection nozzle would work well for sealing joints.

bt
 
dobilan
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Re: Can a new, replacement ISS be built without the space shuttle ?

Sun Aug 22, 2021 6:43 pm

I guess it's all depending on who you ask :) Ask Boeing and you will get "it's tremendously complicated, we'll look at 20 years+ and and a budget co shame the GDP of half of the countries on the map". Ask SpaceX and you'll get a "hold my beer!" :)
 
Noshow
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Re: Can a new, replacement ISS be built without the space shuttle ?

Mon Aug 23, 2021 9:23 am

We should build something like the X-37 upscaled to space shuttle size. This could transport crews and experiments and new sections and such in the cargo bay.
 
texl1649
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Re: Can a new, replacement ISS be built without the space shuttle ?

Mon Aug 23, 2021 9:46 am

The truth is that there is relatively little scientific utility today for an LEO space station of such size, relative to the cost to operate it. Yes, there are some experiments growing tissue etc. in weightless environments that require/benefit from a human presence, but really, not much a private tourist type of station couldn’t also offer at a discounted/affordable price within 10 years as part of a subcontracted role. As stated above, much of the operating cost also is the ground infrastructure to track/manage the facility, as well. A lot of that could hopefully be re-purposed (or re-purposed again, lol, as it were for Houston etc.) for lunar/Martian exploration missions.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Can a new, replacement ISS be built without the space shuttle ?

Mon Aug 23, 2021 12:00 pm

Maybe the next station should be the mid point between the earth and the moon? Or would the orbital mechanics make that station moot?

bt
 
dobilan
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Re: Can a new, replacement ISS be built without the space shuttle ?

Mon Aug 23, 2021 12:50 pm

I think first and foremost the Space Station should have a clear purpose. The purpose of the ISS was more to conserve technical expertise and workplace than anything. And it did just that...
 
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Nomadd
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Re: Can a new, replacement ISS be built without the space shuttle ?

Mon Aug 23, 2021 1:12 pm

bikerthai wrote:
Maybe the next station should be the mid point between the earth and the moon? Or would the orbital mechanics make that station moot?
bt

Moot. It would simply fall toward Earth from there. Even if you put it closer to the moon, where Earth and lunar gravity roughly balance, it would be a very unstable orbit. Putting it in the moon's orbital path, but 120 degrees away would be better. Or, simply in orbit around the moon.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Can a new, replacement ISS be built without the space shuttle ?

Mon Aug 23, 2021 1:57 pm

Nomadd wrote:
Or, simply in orbit around the moon.


A way station closer to earth would be easier for logistics.

bt
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: Can a new, replacement ISS be built without the space shuttle ?

Tue Aug 24, 2021 1:26 am

bikerthai wrote:
Nomadd wrote:
Or, simply in orbit around the moon.


A way station closer to earth would be easier for logistics.

bt

Is it feasible to have a space station do a figure 8 around the moon and Earth? It would help immensely with the costs of manned lunar missions.
 
ZaphodHarkonnen
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Re: Can a new, replacement ISS be built without the space shuttle ?

Tue Aug 24, 2021 1:56 am

TWA772LR wrote:
bikerthai wrote:
Nomadd wrote:
Or, simply in orbit around the moon.


A way station closer to earth would be easier for logistics.

bt

Is it feasible to have a space station do a figure 8 around the moon and Earth? It would help immensely with the costs of manned lunar missions.


The Lunar Gateway is kinda doing that. Though staying within the Moon's orbit the whole time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_Gat ... operations

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3XurKFsTkU
 
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Daetrin
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Re: Can a new, replacement ISS be built without the space shuttle ?

Tue Aug 24, 2021 8:01 pm

Well, that is been proposed right? At the least sci fi writers have pitched this in story form many, many times.

One station in orbit above the Earth, one station in orbit around the Moon, and then a space tug to move stuff between the two. Thus you'd have 3 ship types (Earth to orbit, Earth orbit to lunar orbit, Moon to lunar orbit) and 2 station types (one around each body), but since each is specialized to one purpose it may end up most economic in the long run.
 
N126DL
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Re: Can a new, replacement ISS be built without the space shuttle ?

Wed Aug 25, 2021 12:31 am

Axiom/Bigelow is likely going to create the ISS replacement. Bigelow has the expandable module on the ISS right now that inflates/deflates to save space. One of the images in the thread looks like a rendering of it. Roscosmos wants out and since Zvezda and Zarya basically run the station, we're kind of at their mercy, no? When it is decommissioned, the final two Progress spacecraft will deorbit the station whole, and that's all NASA has worked out according to the last bit of info I read somewhere in my massive autistic-enabled constant research of all things aerospace :D

The only thing we really need the shuttle back for is to retrieve Hubble so that she can be displayed at the Smithsonian.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Can a new, replacement ISS be built without the space shuttle ?

Thu Aug 26, 2021 10:10 pm

Noshow wrote:
We should build something like the X-37 upscaled to space shuttle size. This could transport crews and experiments and new sections and such in the cargo bay.


Ever heard of the SpaceX Starship ?
 
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Aesma
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Re: Can a new, replacement ISS be built without the space shuttle ?

Thu Aug 26, 2021 10:15 pm

N126DL wrote:
Axiom/Bigelow is likely going to create the ISS replacement. Bigelow has the expandable module on the ISS right now that inflates/deflates to save space. One of the images in the thread looks like a rendering of it. Roscosmos wants out and since Zvezda and Zarya basically run the station, we're kind of at their mercy, no? When it is decommissioned, the final two Progress spacecraft will deorbit the station whole, and that's all NASA has worked out according to the last bit of info I read somewhere in my massive autistic-enabled constant research of all things aerospace :D

The only thing we really need the shuttle back for is to retrieve Hubble so that she can be displayed at the Smithsonian.


I wouldn't be surprised if a billionaire offers to buy the ISS and make it last longer, though.
 
texl1649
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Re: Can a new, replacement ISS be built without the space shuttle ?

Thu Aug 26, 2021 11:02 pm

Bigelow…has no employees now and is defunct. I doubt they build a replacement at this point.

Axiom has about 130 employees. Neat idea, but not the scale/funds to do big stuff on their own, imho.

Any replacement would need a real, defined scientific objective, before it could be designed/funded. Again, for sustained human operations in LEO I am not sure what that mission really would need to be. Commercially, a tourism operation and/or growing compounds (medical applications) in zero gravity, maybe, but even then for the latter why does it have to be manned?
 
Noshow
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Re: Can a new, replacement ISS be built without the space shuttle ?

Tue Aug 31, 2021 4:29 pm

Aesma wrote:
Noshow wrote:
We should build something like the X-37 upscaled to space shuttle size. This could transport crews and experiments and new sections and such in the cargo bay.


Ever heard of the SpaceX Starship ?


Sure but this is the private hobby of some billionaire not one research station eating everybody's funds. Looking at all these rich guys building big capacity space transports there are claims they want to mine asteroids or stars for precious metals and such and bring back to earth whatever it is.
China is going huge as well. I still think ISS, while being a good project, has grown to become too big.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Can a new, replacement ISS be built without the space shuttle ?

Wed Sep 01, 2021 9:18 am

What I mean is that Starship is the new space shuttle, able to bring large stuff into orbit and come back down.

About building in space, China is looking at building a miles long spaceship : https://interestingengineering.com/chin ... miles-long

They only talk about sending stuff on rockets but to me there is no way to do this without using space borne resources (from asteroids). Unless it's a ship to escape a dying Earth.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Can a new, replacement ISS be built without the space shuttle ?

Wed Sep 01, 2021 12:05 pm

Aesma wrote:
About building in space, China is looking at building a miles long spaceship : https://interestingengineering.com/chin ... miles-long


Sensational journalism. This is but a proposal, of which only five will be funded. This reminds me of a paper our senior class did on solar sail space vehicle to Mars some 35 years ago. We looked at concepts that could be built with near term technology. 35 years later, the concepts are still pie in the sky.

bt

BTW. At that time there was also a LM study on using nuclear power to convert CO2 on Mars to methane as a propellant for a return trip. With Space X, that seem to be more feasible.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Can a new, replacement ISS be built without the space shuttle ?

Wed Sep 01, 2021 11:36 pm

Actually it's money being spent to study how it could be done. I would think NASA (and SpaceX, and Blue Origin) are also doing this (or have already done it).
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Can a new, replacement ISS be built without the space shuttle ?

Wed Sep 01, 2021 11:45 pm

Aesma wrote:
Actually it's money being spent to study how it could be done.


My read from the article is they will choose 5 studiesl to fund. This is but one of about 10 proposal submitted.

Anyone have links to the other proposals?

bt
 
BEG2IAH
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Re: Can a new, replacement ISS be built without the space shuttle ?

Thu Sep 02, 2021 5:03 am

bikerthai wrote:
Maybe the next station should be the mid point between the earth and the moon? Or would the orbital mechanics make that station moot?
bt


The further away from LEO you go the more space radiation you would get, so this would not be the healthiest option.
 
texl1649
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Re: Can a new, replacement ISS be built without the space shuttle ?

Thu Sep 02, 2021 2:02 pm

BEG2IAH wrote:
bikerthai wrote:
Maybe the next station should be the mid point between the earth and the moon? Or would the orbital mechanics make that station moot?
bt


The further away from LEO you go the more space radiation you would get, so this would not be the healthiest option.


Shielding/research into this could be useful, but again a real need/purpose for a next-generation space station hasn't been identified. Lagrange points are an interesting starting point to going deeper/beyond LEO. https://www.space.com/30302-lagrange-points.html
 
BEG2IAH
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Re: Can a new, replacement ISS be built without the space shuttle ?

Thu Sep 02, 2021 3:27 pm

texl1649, thanks for sharing. This is really interesting!
 
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Aesma
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Re: Can a new, replacement ISS be built without the space shuttle ?

Fri Sep 03, 2021 12:17 am

BEG2IAH wrote:
bikerthai wrote:
Maybe the next station should be the mid point between the earth and the moon? Or would the orbital mechanics make that station moot?
bt


The further away from LEO you go the more space radiation you would get, so this would not be the healthiest option.


I see a module of the Lunar gateway (the European one) seem to have fuel around an habitable center, I wonder if it's to protect from solar radiation.
 
texl1649
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Re: Can a new, replacement ISS be built without the space shuttle ?

Fri Sep 03, 2021 2:34 pm

Aesma wrote:
BEG2IAH wrote:
bikerthai wrote:
Maybe the next station should be the mid point between the earth and the moon? Or would the orbital mechanics make that station moot?
bt


The further away from LEO you go the more space radiation you would get, so this would not be the healthiest option.


I see a module of the Lunar gateway (the European one) seem to have fuel around an habitable center, I wonder if it's to protect from solar radiation.


Correct, and this is actually part of what might make sense as an ISS successor of sorts in terms of a mission; persistent human presence outside of LEO. It’s tricky as there is more delta-v needed to go to/from the moon vs. Mars, but it is still a lot closer, and the radiation/task of supporting this long term could be a big learning step for Martian colonization/interplanetary human operations. Supporting manned operations at the gateway, and plausibly expanding the gateway with more expandable modules in the future for greater research/storage etc., might be a great scientific operation, especially if methane can be produced on the moon...

https://www.esa.int/Science_Exploration ... o_the_Moon

A lot has changed since then (such as, lunar starship), and NASA has I think delinked the lunar gateway from the mandatory/required components to getting humans to the moon, but I think it is critical still. I know this guy is unprofessional/disliked here, and he does his YouTube’s as pure entertainment, but I do think there are valid points he makes in this video;

https://youtu.be/i2TPQmRo7fU
 
UA857
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Re: Can a new, replacement ISS be built without the space shuttle ?

Sat Sep 25, 2021 8:50 pm

How about Skylon? I’m sure an ISS-sized station could cheaply be built using the Skylon Spaceplane.
 
FGITD
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Re: Can a new, replacement ISS be built without the space shuttle ?

Sun Sep 26, 2021 3:17 pm

UA857 wrote:
How about Skylon? I’m sure an ISS-sized station could cheaply be built using the Skylon Spaceplane.


“Cheap” is a relative term when the replacement plan first involves developing an entirely new launch vehicle using an entirely new launch method.

It’s akin to saying in 1962 that landing on the moon is easy, all you need is a fully stacked Saturn V.

Personally I think the SSTO style aircraft are a waste of time. Too much energy wasted on the horizontal take off and climb out through the atmosphere

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