Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
889091
Posts: 366
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:56 pm

Re: C-17 departs Kabul with 800 passengers!

Tue Aug 17, 2021 8:04 pm

Will the entire crew and pax on board the USAF C-17 have to undergo mandatory Covid19 quarantine in Qatar? I only saw a handful of evacuees donning face masks. Granted, getting out of Kabul is of a higher priority than contracting Covid19, but it would be disastrous if the crew turned out to be asymptomatic and are then tasked to fly more missions/troops to aid in the repatriation efforts.
 
estorilm
Posts: 830
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:07 am

Re: C-17 departs Kabul with 800 passengers!

Tue Aug 17, 2021 8:46 pm

FGITD wrote:
That landing gear video is something horrific…I wonder how long the body stayed there.

This was a no-win situation

The people mobbing the airplane are likely thinking that if they don’t get on, they’ll die

The pilots are most likely thinking that if they don’t get out of there, everyone in that hold is at risk, and they might die.

The difference is that whoever is in the left seat is the captain of the ship, and responsible for everyone onboard. Not the people outside.

Save the lives of those you can. Let go of those you can’t.

Well-said, and I agree 100%. They're also not civilians - they were given orders and I'm sure they followed them. It's likely that their brief included information on situation at the airport and contingencies on people storming the aircraft once the doors closed.
 
User avatar
flyingturtle
Posts: 6191
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:39 pm

Re: C-17 departs Kabul with 800 passengers!

Tue Aug 17, 2021 9:04 pm

fortytwoeyes wrote:
flyingturtle wrote:
And before that, people died clambering to a C-17. I hope their souls will torment the German armed forces.

Care to share your intelligence? I mean, with words like those you must have a pretty solid picture of the situation at the airport when the German plane was there.


It's confirmed that the German A400 only rescued 7 people.
 
User avatar
fortytwoeyes
Posts: 90
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2012 11:56 pm

Re: C-17 departs Kabul with 800 passengers!

Tue Aug 17, 2021 9:06 pm

flyingturtle wrote:
It's confirmed that the German A400 only rescued 7 people.


Yes, I know. That wasn't the point.
 
VMCA787
Posts: 264
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2020 9:31 pm

Re: C-17 departs Kabul with 800 passengers!

Tue Aug 17, 2021 9:25 pm

Looks as if the crew was a little off on their estimate of 800 pax. The confirmed total was 640.

https://www.govexec.com/defense/2021/08 ... an/184573/
 
Noray
Posts: 222
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:28 am

Re: C-17 departs Kabul with 800 passengers!

Tue Aug 17, 2021 10:27 pm

FGITD wrote:
That landing gear video is something horrific…I wonder how long the body stayed there.

This was a no-win situation

The people mobbing the airplane are likely thinking that if they don’t get on, they’ll die

Having seen the video with cheering people running next to the C-17, I wonder if all of them were actually afraid or if some of them were just adventurous and naive. And maybe they had the Tom Cruise stunt for Mission: Impossible 5 in their minds, where the actor clings to the side of an A400M taking off.
 
bucky707
Posts: 960
Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2000 2:01 am

Re: C-17 departs Kabul with 800 passengers!

Tue Aug 17, 2021 10:57 pm

889091 wrote:
Will the entire crew and pax on board the USAF C-17 have to undergo mandatory Covid19 quarantine in Qatar? I only saw a handful of evacuees donning face masks. Granted, getting out of Kabul is of a higher priority than contracting Covid19, but it would be disastrous if the crew turned out to be asymptomatic and are then tasked to fly more missions/troops to aid in the repatriation efforts.



Really? The country is falling apart, the Taliban is closing in and already going door to door looking for people, and you even mention Covid?
 
johns624
Posts: 4339
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: C-17 departs Kabul with 800 passengers!

Tue Aug 17, 2021 11:05 pm

scbriml wrote:
johns624 wrote:
That begs the question---where were the European air forces? I'm sure there were plenty of their citizens there. That's right, it's easier to criticize when you're not there. It appears that the "European way" is to stay at home. Oh wait, the Luftwaffe rescued 8 people. That makes it all better...


Do you feel better getting that off your chest?

If you could be bothered to read the thread in civ-av you'd be aware that there have been lots of European movements. The German A400 with a handful of evacuees was due to an unfortunate set of circumstances.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1463859

The UK has already deployed 900 troops to assist with securing the airport.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58235707

I appreciate it's annoying when facts get in the way of a good rant. :sarcastic:
As a matter of fact, yes I do! If you read his posts from the beginning, you'll see that he kept asking the same question. Several of us kept politely answering. Yet, he kept insisting it could've been done differently. Finally, when he got on his high horse and preached about how much better Europeans would've handled it, I lost all patience with him. Another poster was saying how terrible it was that Netherlands lost 20 men. Yet, the Netherlands has over 25% of the population of the UK, which lost over 450. It's always easier to criticize others than to do things yourself.
 
tj1230
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 4:48 am

Re: C-17 departs Kabul with 800 passengers!

Wed Aug 18, 2021 12:08 am

Max Q wrote:
tj1230 wrote:
Kudos to the pilots to take off with this many people. They could have easily said, no we are not going to fly this because it could be dangerous to have this many people on the airplane. I think they knew that if they kick some people off, these people who don't make it on the plane might not make it out of Kabul and they didn't want to be the ones to decide those people's future.
Does anyone else think that the withdrawl could have been planned a bit better? I don't want to be critical of the president but i think a more orderly drawdown would have been better than scrambling around like this. I know Joe Biden didn't want a helicopters leaving from the embassy in Saigon moment, but i think the people running after the C-17 is a video that we will all remember for how disturbing it is. .




Not discrediting the C17 crew for a moment but don’t you think they wanted to get out of there too ?!


They weren’t going back for anything




Besides, even if they had 800 people on board they would still not be exceeding the maximum payload of 170000 pounds, using 195 pounds per passenger they’d have a payload of 156000 pounds, people are light compared to the cargo loads this aircraft is capable of carrying



It was probably pretty uncomfortable but not really unsafe, especially when you consider the alternative



If you want to blame anyone it’s ‘W’ he got us into this pointless war and there was never any other way out that wouldn’t end like this



Joe had the guts to say ‘no more’


I suppose the air crew did want to get out of there. I would have done the same. Plus it would be too much hassle to try and get people out of the plane. Probably would have taken hours to do. I would have said screw it, lets go.
 
tj1230
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 4:48 am

Re: C-17 departs Kabul with 800 passengers!

Wed Aug 18, 2021 12:26 am

LTEN11 wrote:
[quote=f"angad84"]
tj1230 wrote:
Does anyone else think that the withdrawl could have been planned a bit better?

I think pretty much the whole world agrees on that.


The withdrawal had already been completed, the only troops left were those protecting embassies and the like. It was up to the Afghan army to defend their country, they had been trained and well equipped, but the simple bottom line is that they were not up to it. More bluntly, they didn't have the heart and guts to fight for their own country and have allowed their country to be dragged backwards yet again. Those Afghan soldiers were most likely amongst those chasing the C-17.

The scenes were heart breaking, but in all honesty, if the withdrawal had happened, 5, 10, 15, or now at the 20 year mark since the invasion, the results would've been the same, the Taliban would've taken control again. Hopefully one day the long suffering people of Afghanistan will have lasting peace, without fear of their own government/regime, or foreign invader, doubtful I'll see it in my lifetime though.

There were apparently 640 people on the flight.[/quote]

I agree that it was probably inevitable that the Taliban would have taken over eventually. I think it was clumsy how the drawdown was done. Perhaps a transition to test out how the Afghan army performed. They also knew that the president Ghani was corrupt so perhaps that is why they didn't want to fight for him.
The Taliban have been saying all the right things that they are going to be nice guys and not execute anybody, so politically, there is a lot of cover to say, that the Taliban promised they were going to be nice guys and nothing bad will happen so who knows what will happen. I think the Afghan people may not believe the Taliban though as they seem to be scared.
 
tj1230
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 4:48 am

Re: C-17 departs Kabul with 800 passengers!

Wed Aug 18, 2021 1:03 am

JeremyB wrote:
flyingturtle wrote:
LTEN11 wrote:
More bluntly, they didn't have the heart and guts to fight for their own country and have allowed their country to be dragged backwards yet again.


The National Army was never able to shed the stigma of just being the junior partner of the NATO troops. They were never accepted and respected by the regional chiefs up there in the mountains, where their fighting power would have mattered the most. ANA officers and soldiers were mostly there for the pay and the chance to rake in bribes. They knew themselves they were out of luck, because preparing the army for such a case would have meant setting the priorities right several years ago.


Not just that, but commanders and other higher-ups fled towards neighbouring countries such as Tajikistan. The national army fell apart and the Taliban simply marched towards Kabul without too much trouble.

It's a sad situation and seeing those poor souls falling of that C-17 makes it even worse


I read an article that the Afghan president Ghani fled to Uzbekistan on a plane and 4 cars that were packed with money. He had to leave a lot of money on the runway because there was no room on the plane. I think the Afghan tribal system is one where the tribal chiefs wield a lot of power. I guess this is why the old president of Afghanistn Hamid Karzai has nothing to worry about and did not flee Afghanistan (he is tribal chief for one of the largest Pashtun tribes) which probably has a lot of Taliban members in that tribe.
 
tj1230
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 4:48 am

Re: C-17 departs Kabul with 800 passengers!

Wed Aug 18, 2021 1:18 am

flyingturtle wrote:
fortytwoeyes wrote:
flyingturtle wrote:
And before that, people died clambering to a C-17. I hope their souls will torment the German armed forces.

Care to share your intelligence? I mean, with words like those you must have a pretty solid picture of the situation at the airport when the German plane was there.


It's confirmed that the German A400 only rescued 7 people.


They might have been scared, plus the pilots might have thought they would be punished by their commanding officer to take anyone other than German nationals. If there orders were only for German nationals then they can't disobey them.
 
FGITD
Posts: 1808
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:44 pm

Re: C-17 departs Kabul with 800 passengers!

Wed Aug 18, 2021 6:32 am

Saw in a few articles that they were only supposed to take individuals with certain credentials of some sort granting them access, and in the end only 7 made it on due to the chaos of the airport.

These aren’t city buses pulling up to the next stop to fill up with passengers. Just because you’re on the ramp at Kabul unfortunately doesn’t grant you access to an aircraft/new country.

And unfortunately they have to be strict. Imagine you have empty space so you let a few hundred refugees on, and then last minute a bus load of your original manifested pax show up. Do you want to be the one to go back there and tell 50 of the refugees to get off? Think that’ll go down well and not end in a riot?
 
User avatar
flyingturtle
Posts: 6191
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:39 pm

Re: C-17 departs Kabul with 800 passengers!

Wed Aug 18, 2021 8:50 am

FGITD wrote:

And unfortunately they have to be strict. Imagine you have empty space so you let a few hundred refugees on, and then last minute a bus load of your original manifested pax show up. Do you want to be the one to go back there and tell 50 of the refugees to get off? Think that’ll go down well and not end in a riot?


That's shitty planning. If you reasonably expect that 20 of the registered evacuees might still turn up amid the chaos, you fill the plane - but leave space for those 20.

But now they've maxed out the A400 plane with seven rescued people. It's an infamy.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 20209
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: C-17 departs Kabul with 800 passengers!

Wed Aug 18, 2021 10:07 am

johns624 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
johns624 wrote:
That begs the question---where were the European air forces? I'm sure there were plenty of their citizens there. That's right, it's easier to criticize when you're not there. It appears that the "European way" is to stay at home. Oh wait, the Luftwaffe rescued 8 people. That makes it all better...


Do you feel better getting that off your chest?

If you could be bothered to read the thread in civ-av you'd be aware that there have been lots of European movements. The German A400 with a handful of evacuees was due to an unfortunate set of circumstances.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1463859

The UK has already deployed 900 troops to assist with securing the airport.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58235707

I appreciate it's annoying when facts get in the way of a good rant. :sarcastic:
As a matter of fact, yes I do! If you read his posts from the beginning, you'll see that he kept asking the same question. Several of us kept politely answering. Yet, he kept insisting it could've been done differently. Finally, when he got on his high horse and preached about how much better Europeans would've handled it, I lost all patience with him. Another poster was saying how terrible it was that Netherlands lost 20 men. Yet, the Netherlands has over 25% of the population of the UK, which lost over 450. It's always easier to criticize others than to do things yourself.


Thanks for the explanation, sorry if I game over as an ass. It's a horrible situation with no winners. I'm sure everyone is trying to do their very best to help as many as possible, but it's hard for us to understand the pressure they're under. As you say, it's always easy to be critical.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 20209
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: C-17 departs Kabul with 800 passengers!

Wed Aug 18, 2021 10:09 am

flyingturtle wrote:
FGITD wrote:

And unfortunately they have to be strict. Imagine you have empty space so you let a few hundred refugees on, and then last minute a bus load of your original manifested pax show up. Do you want to be the one to go back there and tell 50 of the refugees to get off? Think that’ll go down well and not end in a riot?


That's shitty planning. If you reasonably expect that 20 of the registered evacuees might still turn up amid the chaos, you fill the plane - but leave space for those 20.

But now they've maxed out the A400 plane with seven rescued people. It's an infamy.


It's very easy to be critical when you don't know all the circumstances. I read that the "infamous" German flight hit a spectacular set of circumstances which left it no choice but to only take the seven, but I'm afraid I can't remember where I read it. But, the information is out there. IMHO, you're being overly critical given the chaos on the ground that day.
 
stratable
Posts: 74
Joined: Mon Sep 23, 2019 12:22 pm

Re: C-17 departs Kabul with 800 passengers!

Wed Aug 18, 2021 10:56 am

flyingturtle wrote:
FGITD wrote:

And unfortunately they have to be strict. Imagine you have empty space so you let a few hundred refugees on, and then last minute a bus load of your original manifested pax show up. Do you want to be the one to go back there and tell 50 of the refugees to get off? Think that’ll go down well and not end in a riot?


That's shitty planning. If you reasonably expect that 20 of the registered evacuees might still turn up amid the chaos, you fill the plane - but leave space for those 20.

But now they've maxed out the A400 plane with seven rescued people. It's an infamy.


People that were supposed to be on the flight were unable to make it to the airport as the plane arrived past the 9pm Taliban curfew. The Americans would only let people into the military part of the airport if their respective plane was there. It was uncertain if and at what time the plane would land due to the situation on the ground, so the German embassy staff decided to tell the listed passengers to stay in their hideouts rather than go out onto the street into the chaos and potentially violating the curfew.
American military personnel restricted access to the military area where the evacuation flights are boarding from. So it was not possible to board any civilians from the civilian section of the airport..
 
User avatar
9MMPQ
Posts: 481
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:00 pm

Re: C-17 departs Kabul with 800 passengers!

Wed Aug 18, 2021 11:54 am

I'd say everyone is hitting a spectacular set of circumstances.

First of all, Taliban have set roadblocks & checkpoints throughout the city which in itself is a risk for anyone heading to the airport & is hindering traffic. Together with a set curfew of 21:00 or 22:00 to 04:00 getting to the airport is already challenging. With some reporting gunshots in the city during curfew hours it's not inviting to take a risk.

As the Netherlands have Dutch nationals, Afghan interpetators with their families & other embassy support staff awaiting evacuation several stories have been emerging in media over the past 24 hours. The civilian side of Kabul is apparently a free zone & military units are only controlling the military side of the airport making it the only side where flights can be boarded from.

US military is controlling access but there is a lack of coordination between all the countries working to get people out. People on the Dutch evacuation list were denied entry by US military personnel & forced to either remain near the airport or try & get back home with the risk of violating curfew. Situation at the access points is described to be chaotic & crowded with warning shots being fired to keep the crowd in line. It seems direct coordination between the different nations on the ground at the airport is lacking & needs to be addressed if everyone who is to be evacuated is to be identified & given access to the airport.
 
boacvc10
Posts: 572
Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2006 2:31 pm

Re: C-17 departs Kabul with 800 passengers!

Wed Aug 18, 2021 5:23 pm

Just had a conversation with a family member involved with a large international org who have large # of staff stuck in Kabul. Was surprised to hear rosy picture / briefing of the airport situation completely at odds with available news and of course snippets of hard data on this forum (also civ-av) on a.net. To me the greater disaster is the number of consultants working for these international orgs who are possibly misleading the situation rooms of these teams with news and facts that are plain wrong or seemingly out of date. I would be surprised to hear if any of them were able to get in touch with parties directly through regular phones as the first thing in a takeover is the occupation and control of the public switched telecoms. If lucky a few have satcoms phones that work though upper floors for avoiding detection (e.g. Thuraya) but for how long until someone has to venture out to grab the signals from MEO and GEO says? I can guess the situation is getting graver hour by hour and hope beefier military response is being planned out. Apparently passports and visas also are the huge hold up even though a refugee may have a organizational badge.
 
User avatar
fortytwoeyes
Posts: 90
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2012 11:56 pm

Re: C-17 departs Kabul with 800 passengers!

Wed Aug 18, 2021 8:16 pm

flyingturtle wrote:
FGITD wrote:

And unfortunately they have to be strict. Imagine you have empty space so you let a few hundred refugees on, and then last minute a bus load of your original manifested pax show up. Do you want to be the one to go back there and tell 50 of the refugees to get off? Think that’ll go down well and not end in a riot?


That's shitty planning. If you reasonably expect that 20 of the registered evacuees might still turn up amid the chaos, you fill the plane - but leave space for those 20.

But now they've maxed out the A400 plane with seven rescued people. It's an infamy.


So what exactly did they do wrong? Which people were present during the time the plane was there that they didn't take? Surely you must know if you're that confident condemning them.
 
tj1230
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 4:48 am

Re: C-17 departs Kabul with 800 passengers!

Wed Aug 18, 2021 10:20 pm

boacvc10 wrote:
Just had a conversation with a family member involved with a large international org who have large # of staff stuck in Kabul. Was surprised to hear rosy picture / briefing of the airport situation completely at odds with available news and of course snippets of hard data on this forum (also civ-av) on a.net. To me the greater disaster is the number of consultants working for these international orgs who are possibly misleading the situation rooms of these teams with news and facts that are plain wrong or seemingly out of date. I would be surprised to hear if any of them were able to get in touch with parties directly through regular phones as the first thing in a takeover is the occupation and control of the public switched telecoms. If lucky a few have satcoms phones that work though upper floors for avoiding detection (e.g. Thuraya) but for how long until someone has to venture out to grab the signals from MEO and GEO says? I can guess the situation is getting graver hour by hour and hope beefier military response is being planned out. Apparently passports and visas also are the huge hold up even though a refugee may have a organizational badge.



Without a doubt, things are probably quite chaotic there. For anyone who has worked in a large corporation or government, the message gets filtered and re-filtered so many times that the situation may be quite different from what is reported. For anyone who has worked with a lot of "Yes Men" they always make things sound better than they really are, and they don't want the higher ups to know about any problems that might be occurring as it will help their standing with the bosses. Its unfortunate, that this happens but I have a lot of experience working with "Yes men" who want everything to sound good and to filter the message so it is not clear what is going on. This is probably why Joe Biden has no idea that there is a lot of chaos at the Kabul airport or getting to the airport. The problem with these type of "Yes Men" is that when things really go bad, like now, the big bosses are slow in reacting because this takes them by surprise because it comes out of no where. If these "Yes men" did their job, they would have not filtered the messages and tell it like it is, but this may affect their corporate standing.
 
tj1230
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 4:48 am

Re: C-17 departs Kabul with 800 passengers!

Wed Aug 18, 2021 10:32 pm

VMCA787 wrote:
Looks as if the crew was a little off on their estimate of 800 pax. The confirmed total was 640.

https://www.govexec.com/defense/2021/08 ... an/184573/


Even if there was only 640 passengers, I still think the crew did a good job. I have a feeling that the crew didn't bother to count. They just closed the rear door and left. They got the plane airborne and delivered the passengers to their destination. The crew knew the situation on the ground so perhaps they had no choice but to go when they did.
They broke Air Force regulations by doing this flight so I hope they don't get punished by their commanding officers.
 
User avatar
ssteve
Posts: 1517
Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2011 8:32 am

Re: C-17 departs Kabul with 800 passengers!

Thu Aug 19, 2021 2:55 pm

So, Seattle Times has coverage of the people-on-C17 flight (JBLM crew) ... the C17 in the videos. It landed and took off w/o emplaning anyone.

The 640 passenger flight sounds like a different one.
 
User avatar
Boeing757100
Posts: 776
Joined: Wed May 06, 2020 10:09 pm

Re: C-17 departs Kabul with 800 passengers!

Thu Aug 19, 2021 9:09 pm

777 wrote:
SAS A340 wrote:
People reported falling from the sky while departing . Media report people was hanging outside the C-17 on takeoff. Oh my god.

Honestly, how is this possible? How can you take off without performing a visual check, knowing that the aircraft was literally surrounded by people during the taxi?


Well, given the circumstances, the people were seriously desperate, so it was hectic. And the almost war-zone like conditions would have rendered checks as time consuming, as everyone just wants to get out. Am I condoning that? Absolutely not.
 
RetiredWeasel
Posts: 853
Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2014 8:16 pm

Re: C-17 departs Kabul with 800 passengers!

Fri Aug 20, 2021 3:33 pm

Latest statement from the Air Mobility Command twitter feed says there were actually 823 Afghan citizens on board flight Reach 871.

https://twitter.com/AirMobilityCmd?ref_ ... new-record
 
tj1230
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 4:48 am

Re: C-17 departs Kabul with 800 passengers!

Fri Aug 20, 2021 8:44 pm

RetiredWeasel wrote:
Latest statement from the Air Mobility Command twitter feed says there were actually 823 Afghan citizens on board flight Reach 871.

https://twitter.com/AirMobilityCmd?ref_ ... new-record


Wow, well done to the crew.
 
User avatar
bikerthai
Posts: 4333
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:45 pm

Re: C-17 departs Kabul with 800 passengers!

Fri Aug 20, 2021 10:23 pm

I recall when our family was flown from the Philippines to Guam on a C-141 IN 1975 after Saigon fell. We sat just like that (maybe) a little less crowded and they passed out sandwiches.

Just for some context. The US started withdrawing from Vietnam 1973 and the evacuation 2 years latter in '75 was still chaotic.

Being on the losing end of a civil war is disheartening. Best wishes for those families and hope they can rebuild their lives here and contribute to the host nations.

At least America is much more a melting pot now vs 1975, and they will have a easier time asimilating then we did.

bt
 
mozart
Posts: 2180
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 12:21 am

Re: C-17 departs Kabul with 800 passengers!

Sun Aug 22, 2021 1:56 pm

As a layman and someone who may have only a partial grasp of things like this, I hope to get some explanations from people with more expertise on this forum.

I understand that some countries, including the US and Germany, are using helicopters to pick up people from parts of Kabul and bring them to the airport. Is that not terribly dangerous? Don’t they fear that the helicopters will be shot down?

And also, why did the western countries abandon the embassies in the green zone? Wasn’t the green zone protected by western forces and deemed secure, so why give up?
 
johns624
Posts: 4339
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: C-17 departs Kabul with 800 passengers!

Sun Aug 22, 2021 3:00 pm

mozart wrote:
I understand that some countries, including the US and Germany, are using helicopters to pick up people from parts of Kabul and bring them to the airport. Is that not terribly dangerous? Don’t they fear that the helicopters will be shot down?

And also, why did the western countries abandon the embassies in the green zone? Wasn’t the green zone protected by western forces and deemed secure, so why give up?

1. Any NEO is dangerous. If conditions weren't dangerous, people wouldn't need to be evacuated.
2. What was safe three months ago isn't safe anymore. Most foreign troops were gone 3 months ago. You're better to secure the evacuation site itself if you can't defend everything.
 
User avatar
william
Posts: 3564
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 1999 1:31 pm

Re: C-17 departs Kabul with 800 passengers!

Sun Aug 22, 2021 4:34 pm

Why would the C5 not be as reliable or capable as the C-17? Age? Parts no longer manufactured? Flying characteristics? As I stated on the civilian side, I grew watching C-5s touch and gos all day long with some amazing approaches. Just wanted to know in more detail please.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8593
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: C-17 departs Kabul with 800 passengers!

Sun Aug 22, 2021 5:04 pm

As I said, there, it’s not less capable than the C-17–one C-5 equals two C-17s, but a lot more goes into it. Turn times are longer, MOG limits depending on ground crew at Kabul. No seating in the C-5 as can be installed on the sidewalls of the Herk or Buddha. C-5s move outsized cargo and we’re not moving out equipment.
 
User avatar
bikerthai
Posts: 4333
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:45 pm

Re: C-17 departs Kabul with 800 passengers!

Sun Aug 22, 2021 5:52 pm

mozart wrote:
understand that some countries, including the US and Germany, are using helicopters to pick up people from parts of Kabul and bring them to the airport. Is that not terribly dangerous? Don’t they fear that the helicopters will be shot down?


You do not have to worry about road blocks and traffic with helicopter.

As I understand it, the Taliban has agreed to let foreigners leave. What people are experiencing is probably the lack of ability or willingness of the Taliban leadership to control rouge elements from harassing the evacuations.

So in theory it would be harder for these elements to shoot down a helicopter than setting up road blocks.

bt
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8593
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: C-17 departs Kabul with 800 passengers!

Sun Aug 22, 2021 6:24 pm

If history is any guide, safe passage under Afghan rule is a precarious thing. Read up on the evacuation of the British leaving Kabul after the First Afghan War. Spoiler alert, they were annihilated after being given safe passage.
 
889091
Posts: 366
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:56 pm

Re: C-17 departs Kabul with 800 passengers!

Sun Aug 22, 2021 6:35 pm

bikerthai wrote:

So in theory it would be harder for these elements to shoot down a helicopter than setting up road blocks.

bt


The Taliban 'inherited' a lot of US military hardware when the Afghan Armed Forces capitulated.... A M240 on full auto can do a lot of damage to a low flying helo.

https://www.itemfix.com/v?t=2o9cmx
 
User avatar
bikerthai
Posts: 4333
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:45 pm

Re: C-17 departs Kabul with 800 passengers!

Sun Aug 22, 2021 6:47 pm

889091 wrote:
The Taliban 'inherited' a lot of US military hardware when the Afghan Armed Forces capitulated.... A M240 on full auto can do a lot of damage to a low flying


And the leadership would hoard those equipment for use against the remaining Afgani hold out as opposed to risk losing them by provoking an American response.

bt
 
889091
Posts: 366
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:56 pm

Re: C-17 departs Kabul with 800 passengers!

Sun Aug 22, 2021 6:57 pm

bikerthai wrote:
889091 wrote:
The Taliban 'inherited' a lot of US military hardware when the Afghan Armed Forces capitulated.... A M240 on full auto can do a lot of damage to a low flying


And the leadership would hoard those equipment for use against the remaining Afgani hold out as opposed to risk losing them by provoking an American response.

bt


That is assuming that there is some sort of chain-of-command structure within the Taliban leadership. With the prize being accessibility to previously 'hard to get' weapons, i suspect factions will start breaking out within the organisation, then we're in real trouble.
 
texl1649
Posts: 1963
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2007 5:38 am

Re: C-17 departs Kabul with 800 passengers!

Sun Aug 22, 2021 7:01 pm

william wrote:
Why would the C5 not be as reliable or capable as the C-17? Age? Parts no longer manufactured? Flying characteristics? As I stated on the civilian side, I grew watching C-5s touch and gos all day long with some amazing approaches. Just wanted to know in more detail please.


The C-5 is a bigger target, needs more runway (it is already a damaged runway/taxiway), it has a lower mission capable rate still, and presents possible center of balance issues if packed with people etc. Plus, the risk of loss of life if…say more C-5’s are sent and some have perhaps 1400 people onboard is…greater per flight. It also needs more gas per flight of course so is a greater strain on the tankers.
 
bajs11
Posts: 51
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2021 2:29 am

Re: C-17 departs Kabul with 800 passengers!

Sun Aug 22, 2021 7:01 pm

https://youtu.be/ZcIoQwf8qJg
probably the funniest speech of 2021
It's like a fox blaming the chicken farmer for not locking the door to the cages

flyingturtle wrote:
fortytwoeyes wrote:
flyingturtle wrote:
And before that, people died clambering to a C-17. I hope their souls will torment the German armed forces.

Care to share your intelligence? I mean, with words like those you must have a pretty solid picture of the situation at the airport when the German plane was there.


It's confirmed that the German A400 only rescued 7 people.


Maybe they should've waited and send their new C-130 instead.
 
User avatar
bikerthai
Posts: 4333
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:45 pm

Re: C-17 departs Kabul with 800 passengers!

Sun Aug 22, 2021 8:29 pm

889091 wrote:
That is assuming that there is some sort of chain-of-command structure within the Taliban leadership.


You better believe there is a chain of command. Even a guerilla army need a chain of command. How they were able to neutralize the warlords and bring forth the swift defeat of the Afgan government?

Of course there will be rogue elements. But I bet they will be just as brutal in dealing with their own rogue elements as they are with their enemies.

bt
 
Noray
Posts: 222
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:28 am

Re: C-17 departs Kabul with 800 passengers!

Sun Aug 22, 2021 8:50 pm

bajs11 wrote:
flyingturtle wrote:
fortytwoeyes wrote:
Care to share your intelligence? I mean, with words like those you must have a pretty solid picture of the situation at the airport when the German plane was there.


It's confirmed that the German A400 only rescued 7 people.


Maybe they should've waited and send their new C-130 instead.

Are you trying to say that the US troops that controled the access to that first German A400M arriving in Kabul would have let more people get through if it had been an American-made type?
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8593
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: C-17 departs Kabul with 800 passengers!

Sun Aug 22, 2021 9:15 pm

texl1649 wrote:
william wrote:
Why would the C5 not be as reliable or capable as the C-17? Age? Parts no longer manufactured? Flying characteristics? As I stated on the civilian side, I grew watching C-5s touch and gos all day long with some amazing approaches. Just wanted to know in more detail please.


The C-5 is a bigger target, needs more runway (it is already a damaged runway/taxiway), it has a lower mission capable rate still, and presents possible center of balance issues if packed with people etc. Plus, the risk of loss of life if…say more C-5’s are sent and some have perhaps 1400 people onboard is…greater per flight. It also needs more gas per flight of course so is a greater strain on the tankers.


Size of target isn’t a defining factor—C-5s have gone into all kinds of threat environments—Baghdad, Kabul, Saigon, Congo, Ar’ar, KSA during wartime. MOG and turn times, port capability might be factors. Balance isn’t a problem, either, any load can be planned and loaded within limits. That’s done all the time with far more challenging loads. No need to tank, they can easily “tanker” out of OTBH and land OAKB with fuel for the return, unrefueled. Avoiding OIIX adds miles, but it’s still only about 4 hours.

Floor loading passengers for long flights is the issue, no seating, no comfort pallets.
 
johns624
Posts: 4339
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: C-17 departs Kabul with 800 passengers!

Sun Aug 22, 2021 9:46 pm

Noray wrote:
bajs11 wrote:
flyingturtle wrote:

It's confirmed that the German A400 only rescued 7 people.


Maybe they should've waited and send their new C-130 instead.

Are you trying to say that the US troops that controled the access to that first German A400M arriving in Kabul would have let more people get through if it had been an American-made type?
No, he's saying that a smaller C130 could've hauled those 7 people.
 
Noray
Posts: 222
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:28 am

Re: C-17 departs Kabul with 800 passengers!

Sun Aug 22, 2021 9:51 pm

johns624 wrote:
Noray wrote:
bajs11 wrote:

Maybe they should've waited and send their new C-130 instead.

Are you trying to say that the US troops that controled the access to that first German A400M arriving in Kabul would have let more people get through if it had been an American-made type?
No, he's saying that a smaller C130 could've hauled those 7 people.

Nonsensic argument, as even a C130 is much too large for that. The intention was to transport many more, which they did in subsequent flights after the organisation on the ground had been improved.
 
johns624
Posts: 4339
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: C-17 departs Kabul with 800 passengers!

Sun Aug 22, 2021 11:42 pm

Noray wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Noray wrote:
Are you trying to say that the US troops that controled the access to that first German A400M arriving in Kabul would have let more people get through if it had been an American-made type?
No, he's saying that a smaller C130 could've hauled those 7 people.

Nonsensic argument, as even a C130 is much too large for that. The intention was to transport many more, which they did in subsequent flights after the organisation on the ground had been improved.
It was also an attempt at humor...
 
User avatar
ssteve
Posts: 1517
Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2011 8:32 am

Re: C-17 departs Kabul with 800 passengers!

Mon Aug 23, 2021 4:45 am

889091 wrote:
That is assuming that there is some sort of chain-of-command structure within the Taliban leadership. With the prize being accessibility to previously 'hard to get' weapons, i suspect factions will start breaking out within the organisation, then we're in real trouble.


The Doha peace agreement -- withdrawal in return for no attacks on US forces-- assumes that the Taliban can keep up its end of the bargain. As far as I can tell, it stipulated absolutely nothing except "leave us alone, and we'll leave completely." There were no conditions on not taking over the country, or respecting the government, etc.
 
bajs11
Posts: 51
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2021 2:29 am

Re: C-17 departs Kabul with 800 passengers!

Mon Aug 23, 2021 6:59 am

johns624 wrote:
Noray wrote:
johns624 wrote:
No, he's saying that a smaller C130 could've hauled those 7 people.

Nonsensic argument, as even a C130 is much too large for that. The intention was to transport many more, which they did in subsequent flights after the organisation on the ground had been improved.
It was also an attempt at humor...


or more like an attempt at sarcasm ;)
 
ThePointblank
Posts: 3860
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:39 pm

Re: C-17 departs Kabul with 800 passengers!

Fri Aug 27, 2021 10:34 pm

A baby girl was born onboard a USAF C-17 as the mother went in to labour while on final descent to Ramstein Air Base, Germany:

https://www.militarytimes.com/news/pent ... call-sign/

When a C-17 Globemaster, call sign Reach 828, landed at Ramstein Air Base, Germany, on Saturday, it had an extra passenger, after an Afghan mother on board gave birth to a baby girl as the aircraft made its final descent.


The parents of the new girl has named the child 'Reach', after the aircraft's call sign.
 
thaiflyer
Posts: 352
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:55 pm

Re: C-17 departs Kabul with 800 passengers!

Sat Aug 28, 2021 12:37 am

777 wrote:

That begs the question---where were the European air forces? I'm sure there were plenty of their citizens there. That's right, it's easier to criticize when you're not there. It appears that the "European way" is to stay at home. Oh wait, the Luftwaffe rescued 8 people. That makes it all better...


What are you talking about ?
Many European air forces send in their planes and special forces to rescue the people.
For example the Dutch air force alone evacuated more then 2500 people with multiple military planes a day from Kabul.
Same is the case for many other European countries.
 
User avatar
bikerthai
Posts: 4333
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:45 pm

Re: C-17 departs Kabul with 800 passengers!

Sat Aug 28, 2021 4:09 am

thaiflyer wrote:
What are you talking about ?
Many European air forces send in their planes and special forces to rescue the people.


Not sure about European Media, but American media is rather parochial. Only time we hear anything about Europe is when a big disaster occurs, and only if it does not coincide with our own big story.

bt
 
LTEN11
Posts: 316
Joined: Sun Jun 14, 2020 10:09 am

Re: C-17 departs Kabul with 800 passengers!

Sun Aug 29, 2021 1:50 am

bikerthai wrote:
thaiflyer wrote:
What are you talking about ?
Many European air forces send in their planes and special forces to rescue the people.


Not sure about European Media, but American media is rather parochial. Only time we hear anything about Europe is when a big disaster occurs, and only if it does not coincide with our own big story.

bt


That is an understatement, the rest of the world may as well not exist unless there is an American angle to a story, even less so if it has to do with sports.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 13 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos