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IAF buys 56 C-295 transport aircraft

Thu Sep 09, 2021 8:53 pm

The Indian Air Force is going to acquire 56 C-295 transports from Airbus 40 of which will be assembled in India.

India's Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) approved the procurement of 56 Airbus Defence and Space C295MW medium transport aircraft for the Indian Air Force (IAF) on 8 September that will replace the service's ageing Avro 748M transport fleet.

The Indian Ministry of Defence (MoD) said in a statement that 16 aircraft will be acquired directly from Airbus and delivered in fly-away condition from Spain within 48 months of the signing of the contract, whereas the remaining 40 platforms will be manufactured by the Tata consortium – as part of a joint venture (JV) with Airbus – within 10 years of the contract award.

Although not officially announced, the acquisition is estimated to be valued at INR210 billion (USD2.86 billion), according to industry sources.

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news-detail/new-delhi-approves-acquisition-of-56-c295-transport-aircraft-for-iaf
 
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keesje
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Re: IAF buys 56 C-295 transport aircraft

Fri Sep 10, 2021 10:28 am

A significant strategic contract is seems. A huge populated country like India needs a lot of these small/ medium efficient transport I an imagine.

Airbus starting up a new line with TATA is no doubt a clear signal to HAL

After the MTA/ Il-276, RTA-70, CSIR-NAL.

Studying for 20 yrs, JVs ok, but at some point delivering is essential.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: IAF buys 56 C-295 transport aircraft

Fri Sep 10, 2021 3:55 pm

keesje wrote:
Airbus starting up a new line with TATA is no doubt a clear signal to HAL


Signal have been sending for a while. TATA and it's subsidiary TAML have been working with Airbus and Boeing for a while now. This is just the next step in building confidence toward a future in-country built fighter (whether US or European design).

bt
 
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kitplane01
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Re: IAF buys 56 C-295 transport aircraft

Fri Sep 10, 2021 6:39 pm

bikerthai wrote:
keesje wrote:
Airbus starting up a new line with TATA is no doubt a clear signal to HAL


Signal have been sending for a while. TATA and it's subsidiary TAML have been working with Airbus and Boeing for a while now. This is just the next step in building confidence toward a future in-country built fighter (whether US or European design).

bt


Anyone know what their paying? I'm curious how much setting up a new assembly line adds to the cost.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: IAF buys 56 C-295 transport aircraft

Fri Sep 10, 2021 7:16 pm

kitplane01 wrote:
I'm curious how much setting up a new assembly line adds to the cost.


It's really complicated. India has the off-set law that requires a percentage of work (or equivalent spending) is done in India. So even if it cost more to build those frames in India, the cost of set-up and recurring costs can count toward the off-set.

In 2008 we found off-loading work to India (by offset requirement) was more expensive and time consuming. However after grinding through the initial contracts, and the India supplier coming down the learning curve, we found them cost effective. (Good to choose the right contractor).

I see the same with this contract. At least they will be at a better position on the learning curve.

bt
 
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bikerthai
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Re: IAF buys 56 C-295 transport aircraft

Fri Sep 10, 2021 7:27 pm

Note that labor is much cheaper in India which translate to much lower initial tools cost. I suspect they will duplicate the a set of tooling for the India build.

Also being an on going supplier for both Boeing and Airbus, their digital infrastructure will be up to date. The weak link I see is ramping up the manpower. I see them raiding personal from other AV companies. There will be ripple effects in project management as people move to the new program.

This may also impact how the fighter competition man up. It is a good time to be in the aerospace field for Indian engineering graduates.

bt
 
Max Q
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Re: IAF buys 56 C-295 transport aircraft

Sat Sep 11, 2021 9:00 am

Is the C27J still in production ?
 
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keesje
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Re: IAF buys 56 C-295 transport aircraft

Sat Sep 11, 2021 9:36 am

I think Indian aerospace is full of good education, research institues, facilities, funding and everybody speak english.

Output could be more.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: IAF buys 56 C-295 transport aircraft

Sat Sep 11, 2021 2:56 pm

keesje wrote:
I think Indian aerospace is full of good education, research institues, facilities, funding and everybody speak english.

Output could be more.


Yes except sometimes the accent is almost impossible to understand in a telecon. Good thing there is messaging and email.

It just takes a little a little time to adjust to the western manufacturing culture. How long will it take for them to be comparable to China right now?

bt
 
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kc135topboom
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Re: IAF buys 56 C-295 transport aircraft

Sat Sep 11, 2021 4:43 pm

Max Q wrote:
Is the C27J still in production ?


Yes.
 
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keesje
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Re: IAF buys 56 C-295 transport aircraft

Sun Sep 12, 2021 9:14 am

bikerthai wrote:
keesje wrote:
I think Indian aerospace is full of good education, research institues, facilities, funding and everybody speak english.

Output could be more.


Yes except sometimes the accent is almost impossible to understand in a telecon. Good thing there is messaging and email.

It just takes a little a little time to adjust to the western manufacturing culture. How long will it take for them to be comparable to China right now?

bt


That's the big thing. The Chinese overtook India in aerospace, while starting from the back row. It took them less then 25 years. India had the knowledge, funding and connections but not the detetmination and pragmatism. Excellent India aeronautical engineers have been swarming out to US and EU for decades as a result.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: IAF buys 56 C-295 transport aircraft

Sun Sep 12, 2021 11:45 am

keesje wrote:
Excellent India aeronautical engineers have been swarming out to US and EU for decades as a result.


And they can bring their experience back. Experience may just as valuable as stolen intellectual property.

There are several differences between India and China that could help close the gap faster.

Right now, the US will export technology and knowhow to India that it would not to China.

Intellectual freedom in India may allow it to develop faster.

However being a "democracy" India may not be as focused politically.

It will be interesting to see how it all play out.

bt
 
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keesje
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Re: IAF buys 56 C-295 transport aircraft

Mon Sep 13, 2021 7:09 am

bikerthai wrote:
And they can bring their experience back. Experience may just as valuable as stolen intellectual property.


By why would they? They have well paid Seattle, Toulouse, Hamurg jobs, raising families, equal chances in business, technology driven environments. No regional, political agenda's, caste system realities, extreem climates.

I'm not that optimistic about India serospace, based on what I've seen over the last 25 years. E.g. Brasil & China overtook them.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: IAF buys 56 C-295 transport aircraft

Mon Sep 13, 2021 11:36 am

keesje wrote:
By why would they?


Why would you be a line worker engineer in America when you can be a VP or Manager in India? There will always be people who will have the drive and look for such opportunities. Besides with the ease of air travel, there is opportunity to operate in both countries.

keesje wrote:
E.g. Brasil & China overtook them.


Brasil may be ahead but it lost its opportunity when it fail the merger with Boeing.

China began started to build parts for Boeing and Airbus long before India.

I feel that if political stability can be maintained in India, that and the China US relation continue to be antagonistic, then India will be in a good position to pass both Brasil and many rival China.

As a point, in all those years, China have not built any military aircraft components for the US. India is now building components for the F-18, CH-47, P-8A, AH-64 and will be in on the T-7A as well.

And while these components may be no different than commercial components, the ability to obtain a license to build then is a big plus. Recall the trouble Boeing got in to with the dual use chips on 737 sent to China? Sometime the ability to overcome stringent regulation can have an advantage.

You may be right though, Passing China would be a feat.

bt
 
stratable
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Re: IAF buys 56 C-295 transport aircraft

Mon Sep 13, 2021 2:12 pm

Given India's (population) size, location, economic potential and it being a (flawed) democracy, it's good for Western countries to establish a foothold there, both for economic but also political reasons (China). In that regard it might be beneficial for Western countries to support the development of higher tech manufacturing there. I'm also glad to see that such a sizable order supports the C-295, and makes future development and sustainment costs cheaper for all nations using it.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: IAF buys 56 C-7295 transport aircraft

Mon Sep 13, 2021 3:47 pm

stratable wrote:
In that regard it might be beneficial for Western countries to support the development of higher tech manufacturing there.


Wonder if there is a stat on how many 5 axis NC machine or large autoclave India have imported over the last 10 years. That would be a good indicator of the India higher tech manufacturing trajectory.

bt
 
stratable
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Re: IAF buys 56 C-7295 transport aircraft

Mon Sep 13, 2021 7:35 pm

bikerthai wrote:
stratable wrote:
In that regard it might be beneficial for Western countries to support the development of higher tech manufacturing there.


Wonder if there is a stat on how many 5 axis NC machine or large autoclave India have imported over the last 10 years. That would be a good indicator of the India higher tech manufacturing trajectory.

bt


Future is looking promising if India can get its problems sorted out. I was being optimistic, India has lots of potential.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/ankitmishr ... b6b2353929
 
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kitplane01
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Re: IAF buys 56 C-7295 transport aircraft

Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:49 am

stratable wrote:
bikerthai wrote:
stratable wrote:
In that regard it might be beneficial for Western countries to support the development of higher tech manufacturing there.


Wonder if there is a stat on how many 5 axis NC machine or large autoclave India have imported over the last 10 years. That would be a good indicator of the India higher tech manufacturing trajectory.

bt


Future is looking promising if India can get its problems sorted out. I was being optimistic, India has lots of potential.



The future is promising in Zimbabwe if they can get their problems sorted out.

But for both nations, the fact they cannot get their problems sorted out for several generations *is* the problem. You're welcome to have hope, and hope is wonderful, but history justifies skepticism.
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: IAF buys 56 C-295 transport aircraft

Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:06 am

bikerthai wrote:
keesje wrote:
By why would they?


Why would you be a line worker engineer in America when you can be a VP or Manager in India? There will always be people who will have the drive and look for such opportunities. Besides with the ease of air travel, there is opportunity to operate in both countries.


Because you're more likely to be paid more as a line worker engineer in America than as a VP or Manager in India.

keesje wrote:
E.g. Brasil & China overtook them.


Brasil may be ahead but it lost its opportunity when it fail the merger with Boeing.

China began started to build parts for Boeing and Airbus long before India.

I feel that if political stability can be maintained in India, that and the China US relation continue to be antagonistic, then India will be in a good position to pass both Brasil and many rival China.

As a point, in all those years, China have not built any military aircraft components for the US. India is now building components for the F-18, CH-47, P-8A, AH-64 and will be in on the T-7A as well.

And while these components may be no different than commercial components, the ability to obtain a license to build then is a big plus. Recall the trouble Boeing got in to with the dual use chips on 737 sent to China? Sometime the ability to overcome stringent regulation can have an advantage.

You may be right though, Passing China would be a feat.

bt[/quote]

If you've ever done any business with companies in India you will know that passing China isn't going to happen. In my industry India was seen many years ago as a threat to shipbuilding in China and South Korea, it never happened and will never happen. Instead the industry bypassed them and went to Vietnam, Philippines and Turkey.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: IAF buys 56 C-295 transport aircraft

Tue Sep 14, 2021 12:49 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Because you're more likely to be paid more as a line worker engineer in America than as a VP or Manager in India.


Not all is rosy in America. Pay is more, but cost of living is more. A line engineer with 5 years experience will live in an apartment in Seattle. A manager will live in their own house with servants in Bangalore.

There will be many who chose to stay in the West, but there will be some will risk setting up new opportunity in India.

Kiwirob wrote:
If you've ever done any business with companies in India you will know that passing China isn't going to happen. In my industry India was seen many years ago as a threat to shipbuilding in China and South Korea, it never happened and will never happen. Instead the industry bypassed them and went to Vietnam, Philippines and Turkey.


Haven't directly worked with our India supplier for a while. But from the internal news, and viewing the quality of their product as they come through our factory, I see it is doing fine.

Each of the countries you list have their strength and weakness. Even Japan will have its strength and weakness. Shipbuilding have left the US long ago, so has textiles. India will need to focus on what is important to it. But again I do agree that the road is difficult, but India does have some advantage to China.

bt
 
angad84
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Re: IAF buys 56 C-295 transport aircraft

Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:32 am

bikerthai wrote:
A line engineer with 5 years experience will live in an apartment in Seattle. A manager will live in their own house with servants in Bangalore.
bt

You're ignoring QOL and a host of other factors in this comparison... the guy in BLR will have to work his hands to the bone. Cost of living in India is actually frightful when you get into it. Our interest rates are crippling and it's almost impossible to live in a big city without some form of credit (or sky high rent). Fuel costs are objectively mental, and when adjusted for income, are downright obscene. Traffic and pollution is off the charts. and on and on it goes... there's a reason we haven't reversed brain drain yet.

Anyway, getting off topic here, so my contribution to the thread is that I see the C-295 becoming India's new Avro/Dornier. A massive success with a long and varied production run.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: IAF buys 56 C-295 transport aircraft

Wed Sep 15, 2021 12:02 pm

angad84 wrote:
Fuel costs are objectively mental, and when adjusted for income, are downright obscene. Traffic and pollution is off the charts. and on and on it goes.


Sounds like Seattle but without the pollution and replace the fuel price with taxes.

Agree that the brain drain is far from reversing if ever. However it only takes a trickle the other way to get significant benefit from knowledge transfer.

bt
 
BestIntellect
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Re: IAF buys 56 C-295 transport aircraft

Wed Sep 15, 2021 3:50 pm

The moderators should make it a rule that if you're going to use the acronym "IAF" you're required to talk about India and Israel simultaneously and make it confusing as possible. Like when the IAF is conducting strikes in Kashmir and Gaza simultaneously, with Flankers and F-35s, without refueling.
 
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keesje
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Re: IAF buys 56 C-295 transport aircraft

Sun Oct 24, 2021 11:06 am

angad84 wrote:
bikerthai wrote:
A line engineer with 5 years experience will live in an apartment in Seattle. A manager will live in their own house with servants in Bangalore.
bt

You're ignoring QOL and a host of other factors in this comparison... the guy in BLR will have to work his hands to the bone. Cost of living in India is actually frightful when you get into it. Our interest rates are crippling and it's almost impossible to live in a big city without some form of credit (or sky high rent). Fuel costs are objectively mental, and when adjusted for income, are downright obscene. Traffic and pollution is off the charts. and on and on it goes... there's a reason we haven't reversed brain drain yet.

Anyway, getting off topic here, so my contribution to the thread is that I see the C-295 becoming India's new Avro/Dornier. A massive success with a long and varied production run.


I've been amazed by the number of engineers from India in the global aerospace industry, being well educated & speaking english helps a lot of course. As said getting big programs of the ground so far has been limited to defense programs.

Image
https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-releases/en/2021/09/india-formalises-acquisition-of-56-airbus-c295-aircraft.html

I agree the C295 will be a long term program, MPA and EAW variants already being available /proven, C295’s STOL capability and the opportunity to include local systems in the future for a variety of roles would make the 20 yr sales total go far above this 56. Despite housing 1B inhabitants India and its borders are compact making this a very usefull sized platform.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: IAF buys 56 C-295 transport aircraft

Sun Oct 24, 2021 2:05 pm

keesje wrote:
As said getting big programs of the ground so far has been limited to defense programs.


On the other hand, getting a small program on the commercial side may get you more money.

In 2008 I saw some of the first India built A320 engine strut (if I recall correctly). With the A320 production rate, the total worth of follow on contract would be a significant sum.

bt
 
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BawliBooch
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Re: IAF buys 56 C-295 transport aircraft

Mon Oct 25, 2021 3:10 am

bikerthai wrote:
keesje wrote:
Airbus starting up a new line with TATA is no doubt a clear signal to HAL


Signal have been sending for a while. TATA and it's subsidiary TAML have been working with Airbus and Boeing for a while now. This is just the next step in building confidence toward a future in-country built fighter (whether US or European design).

bt


Do you think Tata is the first Indian company to build (western) aircraft in India? That is another huge piece of misinformation!

Bangalore based Hindustan Aeronautics has been building the entire Mig Series of jets for IAF locally. But HAL have also been building Western aircraft from scratch since the HS748 in the late 50's. They have also been assembling Jets from CKDs even earlier from Ouragans (called Toofanis in IAF service) and dH Vampires. In the 80's HAL built 120+ SEPECAT Jaguars inlcuding Rolls Royce Engines at their Koraput factory. That deal included Tech Transfer. HAL has also locally built the Dornier 228 series in the 80's and components for Airbus like cargo and passenger doors. HAL also have locally designed aircraft from the HPT-32 to Kiran Jet trainers to the LCA Tejas.

The WhatsApp misinformation network likes to promote the idea that there was nothing in India before 2014. That is NOT correct. HAL has a long history of working with Western manufacturers and building aircraft under license as well as local designs.

If anything, this deal with Tatas is not for complete manufacture but assembly from CKD components. HAL was supposed to be the original partner and was supposed to manufacture the entire aircraft from scratch and even export locally built subcomponents to the programme.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: IAF buys 56 C-295 transport aircraft

Mon Oct 25, 2021 12:46 pm

BawliBooch wrote:
. HAL has a long history of working with Western manufacturers and building aircraft under license as well as local designs.


Again you are right. But in 2008 when I visited both facilities of both HAL and TAML (part of TATA), I was more impressed with the trajectory of TAML.

Ultimately HAL may be the only India company big enough to handle this type of contract. But the other Indian companies seemed to respond better to the learning curve. (Anicdotal evidence only for this opinion).

bt

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