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LHAM
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UAE Air Force orders 80 Rafales from France

Fri Dec 03, 2021 10:32 am

The United Arab Emirates ordered 80 Rafale fighter jets on Friday, the largest order ever for the warplane, a multi-billion dollar arms contract that deepens economic and political ties with France.

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/frances-macron-nears-uae-rafale-fighter-jet-deal-2021-12-03/
 
texl1649
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Re: UAE Air Force orders 80 Rafales from France

Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:02 pm

Congrats to UAE/France alike. Great aircraft, and stealth is not really needed of course to take on/defend against Iran.
 
RJMAZ
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Re: UAE Air Force orders 80 Rafales from France

Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:22 pm

Excellent news for France. This will keep the Rafale production line open until France needs to start replacing older Rafale aircraft.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: UAE Air Force orders 80 Rafales from France

Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:00 pm

Interesting order, UAE will have quite a sizeable size of their fighter fleet.
 
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TripleDelta
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Re: UAE Air Force orders 80 Rafales from France

Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:45 pm

80 examples for the UAE following closely on the heels of 12 (albeit used) for Croatia and 12 (also used) for Greece; so it appears that the Rafale's sales fortunes can be summed up as "nothing... nothing... nothing... and then everything"
 
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ITMercure
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Re: UAE Air Force orders 80 Rafales from France

Fri Dec 03, 2021 2:42 pm

TripleDelta wrote:
80 examples for the UAE following closely on the heels of 12 (albeit used) for Croatia and 12 (also used) for Greece; so it appears that the Rafale's sales fortunes can be summed up as "nothing... nothing... nothing... and then everything"


What about Egypt, Qatar, India, Indonesia (and of course, France)? 'Nothing'?
 
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Alsatian
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Re: UAE Air Force orders 80 Rafales from France

Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:41 pm

TripleDelta wrote:
80 examples for the UAE following closely on the heels of 12 (albeit used) for Croatia and 12 (also used) for Greece; so it appears that the Rafale's sales fortunes can be summed up as "nothing... nothing... nothing... and then everything"


For Greece, the original order was for 12 used airframes, and 6 new. 6 other examples (new) have just been added for a total of 24 aircrafts.

ITMercure wrote:
What about Egypt, Qatar, India, Indonesia (and of course, France)? 'Nothing'?


He was probably referring to the orders of this year only. And indeed, as the Egyptian deal was signed in 2015, it took many times for the Rafale to win its first international agreement.
 
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TripleDelta
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Re: UAE Air Force orders 80 Rafales from France

Fri Dec 03, 2021 4:37 pm

ITMercure wrote:
(and of course, France)


Even if the Rafale was a complete crock compared to its competitors, the French armed forces would still buy them by the hundreds through government decree in order to protect French jobs and investment. Nothing really wrong with that; their money, their choice. But putting France forward as proof of healthy sales is hardly a valid argument.

Alsatian wrote:
He was probably referring to the orders of this year only. And indeed, as the Egyptian deal was signed in 2015, it took many times for the Rafale to win its first international agreement.


Indeed. Long periods of quiet (despite the efforts of the sales team) and then boom - orders pretty much over the place, all guaranteed (directly or by a roundabout way) to keep the production line open for quite some time.
 
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Francoflier
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Re: UAE Air Force orders 80 Rafales from France

Fri Dec 03, 2021 7:02 pm

Fighters tend to have long shelf lives and it's not rare to see their associated sales campaigns go on for decades as long as they can reasonably keep up with technological demand through upgrades.
The most famous and perennial example of this being the F-16.

Rafale has probably seen it's initial development and production line costs mostly amortized. Dassault is probably now in a position to ask for a more competitive price.
The platform itself has been updated and, crucially, is combat-proven.

It's good to see the program coming into its own and see this pretty little airplane find new customers. One of the most photogenic fighter out there for sure.

It's also reflects fairly well on Dassault that many customers seem to remain quite loyal over the years.
(Yes, I know that there's also a large political component to weapon sales...)

In any case, congrats to Dassault and the UAE AF.
 
texl1649
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Re: UAE Air Force orders 80 Rafales from France

Fri Dec 03, 2021 7:08 pm

Francoflier wrote:
Fighters tend to have long shelf lives and it's not rare to see their associated sales campaigns go on for decades as long as they can reasonably keep up with technological demand through upgrades.
The most famous and perennial example of this being the F-16.

Rafale has probably seen it's initial development and production line costs mostly amortized. Dassault is probably now in a position to ask for a more competitive price.
The platform itself has been updated and, crucially, is combat-proven.

It's good to see the program coming into its own and see this pretty little airplane find new customers. One of the most photogenic fighter out there for sure.

It's also reflects fairly well on Dassault that many customers seem to remain quite loyal over the years.
(Yes, I know that there's also a large political component to weapon sales...)

In any case, congrats to Dassault and the UAE AF.


It's always been a solid design, and I don't think there's any evidence it has ever been a 'low cost' competitor (either up front or in sustainment costs). I think it's later-half production life success in foreign sales is due to its resilience, good management, and the desire by some certainly to diversify beyond either/or US/Russian dependence for support. I imagine we will see these in the sky for quite some time which is great.
 
LightningZ71
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Re: UAE Air Force orders 80 Rafales from France

Fri Dec 03, 2021 7:56 pm

do not overlook how little of the Rafale is subject to being disrupted by ITAR embargos. That's a big selling point for some customers. France has made a concerted effort to reduce the ITAR sensitivity of as much of their exportable hardware as possible since 2018.
 
johns624
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Re: UAE Air Force orders 80 Rafales from France

Fri Dec 03, 2021 8:27 pm

Where are they going to park all of them? :rotfl:
 
Newark727
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Re: UAE Air Force orders 80 Rafales from France

Fri Dec 03, 2021 11:13 pm

Seems like a lot of jets. How many fighters does the UAE have now? How big have their previous military orders been?
 
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kitplane01
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Re: UAE Air Force orders 80 Rafales from France

Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:32 am

No deliveries until 2027! It's currently still 2021.

That seems a long lead time.

Also, this order includes 12 H225 Caracals.

If the UAE gets the F-35s, the combo of F-35 and Rafale might make them literally the most modern air force in the world. Not most capable, but still some very shiny toys.
 
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Aesma
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Re: UAE Air Force orders 80 Rafales from France

Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:24 am

Dassault can make 3 a month from what I gather, anything more would need massive investments that are unlikely to pay off.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: UAE Air Force orders 80 Rafales from France

Sat Dec 04, 2021 7:44 am

Newark727 wrote:
Seems like a lot of jets. How many fighters does the UAE have now? How big have their previous military orders been?


wikipedia

20x AT-802
59x Mirage 2000-9/EAD/RAD
78x F-16 E/F block 60 Fighting Falcon

This order seems to be a natural Mirage 2000 replacement order. 80 is not that massive. A fighter fleet of around 160 fighters a/c with a population of around 10million.
 
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Alsatian
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Re: UAE Air Force orders 80 Rafales from France

Sat Dec 04, 2021 9:02 am

kitplane01 wrote:
No deliveries until 2027! It's currently still 2021.


The UAE Air Force has ordered the Rafale F4 version which is still under development. This latest model will be delivered to the French AF between 2023 and 2027.
 
bajs11
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Re: UAE Air Force orders 80 Rafales from France

Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:13 pm

Will the UAE actually order F-35 or is this a compensation for the AUUKUS?

https://www.defensenews.com/global/mide ... -with-uae/
They offer a shot in the arm for France’s defense industry after the collapse of a $66 billion contract for Australia to buy 12 French submarines that ultimately went to the U.S.


Also which helicopter did they order?
from the same article:
It also announced a deal with the UAE to sell 12 Airbus-built combat helicopters.

can't be the Tiger since they already have AH-64E
 
johns624
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Re: UAE Air Force orders 80 Rafales from France

Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:11 pm

bajs11 wrote:
Will the UAE actually order F-35 or is this a compensation for the AUUKUS?

https://www.defensenews.com/global/mide ... -with-uae/
They offer a shot in the arm for France’s defense industry after the collapse of a $66 billion contract for Australia to buy 12 French submarines that ultimately went to the U.S.


Compensation from who? For what?
 
kelval
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Re: UAE Air Force orders 80 Rafales from France

Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:37 pm

I think people here mix up everything.

The AUKUUS treaty is Naval Group's ( as name mentions it builds boats) loss.

Rafale's contract has been won by Dassault.

UAE don't give a crap about what the US did or didn't do to France and aren't there to compensate for anyone's loss.

Rafale won on it's on merits and Naval Group probably isn't over their contract's loss. Enough trying to link them together.

This contract will profit Dassault and their subcontractors, not Naval Group.
 
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kitplane01
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Re: UAE Air Force orders 80 Rafales from France

Sat Dec 04, 2021 8:24 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Newark727 wrote:
Seems like a lot of jets. How many fighters does the UAE have now? How big have their previous military orders been?


wikipedia

20x AT-802
59x Mirage 2000-9/EAD/RAD
78x F-16 E/F block 60 Fighting Falcon

This order seems to be a natural Mirage 2000 replacement order. 80 is not that massive. A fighter fleet of around 160 fighters a/c with a population of around 10million.


It's a huge airforce for a nation with 9.5 million people.
List of nations with between 8-11 million people: Greece, Czeck, Dominican Republic, Portugal, Azerbaijan, Hungary, Tajikistan, Honduras,Israel,Papua New Guinea,Austria,Switzerland,Sierra Leone

OK. I take that back. It would be second-ish on that list behind Israel, tied with Greece, and ahead of Sweden.
 
johns624
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Re: UAE Air Force orders 80 Rafales from France

Sat Dec 04, 2021 10:52 pm

That list doesn't take into account each country's wealth and needs. Russia has less than 45% of the population of the US. Indonesia, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nigeria and Brazil are all more populous than Russia.
 
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kitplane01
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Re: UAE Air Force orders 80 Rafales from France

Tue Dec 07, 2021 12:43 am

Does anyone know ... is the F-35 available to the UAE? I thought that it was as a result of diplomacy between the US and the UAE.
 
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Francoflier
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Re: UAE Air Force orders 80 Rafales from France

Tue Dec 07, 2021 12:34 pm

kitplane01 wrote:
Does anyone know ... is the F-35 available to the UAE? I thought that it was as a result of diplomacy between the US and the UAE.


The UAE has a standing agreement with the US to buy 50 F-35s (+drones). This Rafale deal appears to be in addition to that. The problem being that congress hasn't approved the sale yet and as the article that the OP linked says, this deal might also serve as a hint to the US that the UAE may be losing patience...
 
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Dutchy
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Re: UAE Air Force orders 80 Rafales from France

Tue Dec 07, 2021 2:58 pm

Francoflier wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:
Does anyone know ... is the F-35 available to the UAE? I thought that it was as a result of diplomacy between the US and the UAE.


The UAE has a standing agreement with the US to buy 50 F-35s (+drones). This Rafale deal appears to be in addition to that. The problem being that congress hasn't approved the sale yet and as the article that the OP linked says, this deal might also serve as a hint to the US that the UAE may be losing patience...


I think that the UAE wants to have two independent sources for military a/c, these 50 F-35's would be a natural replacement for the F-16E/F.
 
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kitplane01
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Re: UAE Air Force orders 80 Rafales from France

Tue Dec 07, 2021 8:07 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Francoflier wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:
Does anyone know ... is the F-35 available to the UAE? I thought that it was as a result of diplomacy between the US and the UAE.


The UAE has a standing agreement with the US to buy 50 F-35s (+drones). This Rafale deal appears to be in addition to that. The problem being that congress hasn't approved the sale yet and as the article that the OP linked says, this deal might also serve as a hint to the US that the UAE may be losing patience...


I think that the UAE wants to have two independent sources for military a/c, these 50 F-35's would be a natural replacement for the F-16E/F.


Aviation Week and Space Tech notices that in the UAE operations in Libya and Yemen, they only used the Mirage and no F-16s. They opine that maybe the US has imposed formal or informal limitation on the use of American aircraft, and the Rafale buy is to keep a fleet of aircraft not limited by America.
 
texl1649
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Re: UAE Air Force orders 80 Rafales from France

Tue Dec 07, 2021 11:05 pm

kitplane01 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Francoflier wrote:

The UAE has a standing agreement with the US to buy 50 F-35s (+drones). This Rafale deal appears to be in addition to that. The problem being that congress hasn't approved the sale yet and as the article that the OP linked says, this deal might also serve as a hint to the US that the UAE may be losing patience...


I think that the UAE wants to have two independent sources for military a/c, these 50 F-35's would be a natural replacement for the F-16E/F.


Aviation Week and Space Tech notices that in the UAE operations in Libya and Yemen, they only used the Mirage and no F-16s. They opine that maybe the US has imposed formal or informal limitation on the use of American aircraft, and the Rafale buy is to keep a fleet of aircraft not limited by America.


I believe this to be correct. Flexibility as to deployments/strikes in particular are significant to the UAE (among others).
 
LHAM
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Re: UAE Air Force orders 80 Rafales from France

Wed Dec 15, 2021 2:04 pm

Οn a clearly related development the UAE has suspended talks with US over purchase of F-35 fighter jets, a deal worth $23bn!

https://www.military.com/daily-news/202 ... al-us.html
 
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Dutchy
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Re: UAE Air Force orders 80 Rafales from France

Wed Dec 15, 2021 6:55 pm

LHAM wrote:
Οn a clearly related development the UAE has suspended talks with US over purchase of F-35 fighter jets, a deal worth $23bn!

https://www.military.com/daily-news/202 ... al-us.html


quite a lot of stuff, 50 F-35 should be max 8bn, including all kinds of goodies.
 
trex8
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Re: UAE Air Force orders 80 Rafales from France

Wed Dec 15, 2021 7:49 pm

Francoflier wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:
Does anyone know ... is the F-35 available to the UAE? I thought that it was as a result of diplomacy between the US and the UAE.


The UAE has a standing agreement with the US to buy 50 F-35s (+drones). This Rafale deal appears to be in addition to that. The problem being that congress hasn't approved the sale yet and as the article that the OP linked says, this deal might also serve as a hint to the US that the UAE may be losing patience...

Congress never actually approves a sale, they veto a sale. Any sale notified to them by the US DSCA goes through unless explicitly vetoed by Congress, which hardly ever happens. The US administration is dragging its feet signing the is and dotting the ts on the sale.
 
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scbriml
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Re: UAE Air Force orders 80 Rafales from France

Thu Dec 16, 2021 12:31 am

trex8 wrote:
The US administration is dragging its feet signing the is and dotting the ts on the sale.


Maybe that's the problem? If they dotted the is and crossed the ts instead, things would move along! :wink2:
 
trex8
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Re: UAE Air Force orders 80 Rafales from France

Thu Dec 16, 2021 4:01 pm

scbriml wrote:
trex8 wrote:
The US administration is dragging its feet signing the is and dotting the ts on the sale.


Maybe that's the problem? If they dotted the is and crossed the ts instead, things would move along! :wink2:

haha, serves me right posting when tired!!!

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