In the 1980's India embarked on a programme to develop an indigenous light fighter to replace its large fleet of MiG-21 aircraft from the 1990's onwards.The light combat aircraft (LCA), powered by a GE F404 giving 84kN thrust with afterburner, first flew in 2001. It was named Tejas and went into series production in 2011, a total of 40 having been ordered for the IAF. 83 of an improved version named Tejas Mk1A were ordered.in 2021 including trainers, deliveries scheduled to start in 2024.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAL_Tejas

India is also developing a heavier light-medium fighter, the Tejas Mk2 - otherwise known as MWF (medium weight fighter). This aircraft is to be powered by the GE F414 engine, giving 98kN thrust with afterburner. Series production is scheduled to start 2026/2027.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAL_Tejas_Mk2

India is also developing its own 5G aircraft known as AMCA (advanced medium combat aircraft). This is scheduled to go into production around 2028.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAL_AMCA

Additionally, India is designing a twin engined fighter for its carriers. This is known as TEDBF (twin engined deck based fighter).

All aircraft will be fitted with Indian sensors (AESA, MAWS, IRST etc) as these come on stream to substitute foreign sensors used initially where Indian sensors are not yet available.

Tejas Mk1A - similar in performance to Gripen C - has a price of around US$45 million. A number of Russian, American, Israeli and Indian weapons will be integrated. Could Tejas Mk1A become the 'F-5' of the light fighter market, given that it is a low cost aircraft with low cost Indian weapons integrated?

And could the heavier Tejas Mk2 (price not yet known) attract orders from countries with budgets too limited for F-16/Gripen E?

In 1986 India set out to develop an engine to power Tejas. Satisfactory results were not obtained and in 2008 the intention to use the Kaveri engine in the production version of the Tejas was dropped.

What are the prospects of India becoming a serious player in the world fighter market in the 2020's?

I see a high potential of India taking over the production of the T-7A forward fuselage assembly from Boeing within the '20s purely from a cost saving stand point. There may be an opportunity for in country assembly of that frame for the export market.

Everything else depends on the political winds.

bt

If people are interested, there was a long, recent thread about the Tejas.
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1457029

art wrote:

In the 1980's India embarked on a programme to develop an indigenous light fighter to replace its large fleet of MiG-21 aircraft from the 1990's onwards.The light combat aircraft (LCA), powered by a GE F404 giving 84kN thrust with afterburner, first flew in 2001. It was named Tejas and went into series production in 2011, a total of 40 having been ordered for the IAF. 83 of an improved version named Tejas Mk1A were ordered.in 2021 including trainers, deliveries scheduled to start in 2024.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAL_Tejas

India is also developing a heavier light-medium fighter, the Tejas Mk2 - otherwise known as MWF (medium weight fighter). This aircraft is to be powered by the GE F414 engine, giving 98kN thrust with afterburner. Series production is scheduled to start 2026/2027.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAL_Tejas_Mk2

India is also developing its own 5G aircraft known as AMCA (advanced medium combat aircraft). This is scheduled to go into production around 2028.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAL_AMCA

Additionally, India is designing a twin engined fighter for its carriers. This is known as TEDBF (twin engined deck based fighter).

All aircraft will be fitted with Indian sensors (AESA, MAWS, IRST etc) as these come on stream to substitute foreign sensors used initially where Indian sensors are not yet available.

Tejas Mk1A - similar in performance to Gripen C - has a price of around US$45 million. A number of Russian, American, Israeli and Indian weapons will be integrated. Could Tejas Mk1A become the 'F-5' of the light fighter market, given that it is a low cost aircraft with low cost Indian weapons integrated?

And could the heavier Tejas Mk2 (price not yet known) attract orders from countries with budgets too limited for F-16/Gripen E?

In 1986 India set out to develop an engine to power Tejas. Satisfactory results were not obtained and in 2008 the intention to use the Kaveri engine in the production version of the Tejas was dropped.

What are the prospects of India becoming a serious player in the world fighter market in the 2020's?

I don't think that India will become a serious play on the world fighter market in the 2020s because the history of Indian fighter programs is not one of success at producing fighters. For example, the talks about the Tejas started in 1983, the first flight was in 2001, and it was introduced into very limited service in 2015. With that kind of timeline ... I have limited hopes for the Tejas Mk II or the AMCA within the 2020s.

BTW, I think the Tejas Mk 1a could be a nice set of capabilities at it's price point. And I bet there could a market for it too (see discussion on the T-7 combat variant.) But execution matters, and the history is not hopeful.

art wrote:

Additionally, India is designing a twin engined fighter for its carriers. This is known as TEDBF (twin engined deck based fighter).

Perhaps they will go with Rafale M (Marine). Dassault Likely to Display Rafale Marine Aircraft in India.

According to the outlet, the Rafale will take off from the country’s shore-based test facility at INS Hansa, Goa in January, not from an aircraft carrier. During its India visit, the aircraft will display its STOBAR (short take-off but arrested recovery) capability, which is different from the CATOBAR (catapult take-off but arrested recovery) currently in use on the French aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle. According to the outlet, Indian aircraft carriers employ STOBAR.

TaromA380 wrote:

art wrote:

Additionally, India is designing a twin engined fighter for its carriers. This is known as TEDBF (twin engined deck based fighter).

Perhaps they will go with Rafale M (Marine). Dassault Likely to Display Rafale Marine Aircraft in India.

According to the outlet, the Rafale will take off from the country’s shore-based test facility at INS Hansa, Goa in January, not from an aircraft carrier. During its India visit, the aircraft will display its STOBAR (short take-off but arrested recovery) capability, which is different from the CATOBAR (catapult take-off but arrested recovery) currently in use on the French aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle. According to the outlet, Indian aircraft carriers employ STOBAR.

They could go for Rafale M.

Possible advantages of pursuing the indigenous design:
(a) more powerful engines meaning greater payload
(b) integration of Indian weapons, sensors will be easier and much cheaper than with Rafale
(c) mid-life upgrade much cheaper
(d) aircraft can be designed for short take off (high lift devices etc)
(e) cost - possibly much cheaper than Rafale M even including dev cost of perhaps ~$2 billion
(f) local design and build benefits Indian defence industry and creates skilled jobs
(g) sovereignty - if India gets into a fight, India does not risk France stopping spares supplies

On the other hand, there are advantages for Rafale M too:
- cross pilots certification and training with IAF
- commonality with the IAF Rafale B/C leading to reduced maintenance costs
- same provider (France), one of the less risky sovereignty potential problems
- proven and available and with a known cost, instead of a future project to start from scratch which could slip into many years of delays and/or underperforming and/or costs exploding if not canceling
- I guess that cheaper sensors can be installed on Rafale too, if ever

I guess it will depend also on the yet-to-assess STOBAR performances (in theory always less than CATOBAR ones) and the level of statisfaction of IAF with their newly delivered Rafales B/C.

TaromA380 wrote:

On the other hand, there are advantages for Rafale M too:
- cross pilots certification and training with IAF
- commonality with the IAF Rafale B/C leading to reduced maintenance costs
- same provider (France), one of the less risky sovereignty potential problems
- proven and available and with a known cost, instead of a future project to start from scratch which could slip into many years of delays and/or underperforming and/or costs exploding if not canceling
- I guess that cheaper sensors can be installed on Rafale too, if ever

I guess it will depend also on the yet-to-assess STOBAR performances (in theory always less than CATOBAR ones) and the level of statisfaction of IAF with their newly delivered Rafales B/C.

Another advantage of the Rafale M:

Available now. A hypothetical Indian naval fighter is a decade or more away (if it works) and the carrier will need planes before that.
More likely: We're sure Dassault can make a Rafale M, and that it works. There is no reason to think that any company in India can make a top line naval fighter, and significant reason to think they cannot.

kitplane01 wrote:

TaromA380 wrote:

On the other hand, there are advantages for Rafale M too:
- cross pilots certification and training with IAF
- commonality with the IAF Rafale B/C leading to reduced maintenance costs
- same provider (France), one of the less risky sovereignty potential problems
- proven and available and with a known cost, instead of a future project to start from scratch which could slip into many years of delays and/or underperforming and/or costs exploding if not canceling
- I guess that cheaper sensors can be installed on Rafale too, if ever

I guess it will depend also on the yet-to-assess STOBAR performances (in theory always less than CATOBAR ones) and the level of statisfaction of IAF with their newly delivered Rafales B/C.

Another advantage of the Rafale M:

Available now. A hypothetical Indian naval fighter is a decade or more away (if it works) and the carrier will need planes before that.
More likely: We're sure Dassault can make a Rafale M, and that it works. There is no reason to think that any company in India can make a top line naval fighter, and significant reason to think they cannot.

Rafale M doesn't fit the elevators without removing the wings dude... Good luck doing that on a carrier deck day in and day out.

SeamanBeaumont wrote:

kitplane01 wrote:

TaromA380 wrote:

On the other hand, there are advantages for Rafale M too:
- cross pilots certification and training with IAF
- commonality with the IAF Rafale B/C leading to reduced maintenance costs
- same provider (France), one of the less risky sovereignty potential problems
- proven and available and with a known cost, instead of a future project to start from scratch which could slip into many years of delays and/or underperforming and/or costs exploding if not canceling
- I guess that cheaper sensors can be installed on Rafale too, if ever

I guess it will depend also on the yet-to-assess STOBAR performances (in theory always less than CATOBAR ones) and the level of statisfaction of IAF with their newly delivered Rafales B/C.

Another advantage of the Rafale M:

Available now. A hypothetical Indian naval fighter is a decade or more away (if it works) and the carrier will need planes before that.
More likely: We're sure Dassault can make a Rafale M, and that it works. There is no reason to think that any company in India can make a top line naval fighter, and significant reason to think they cannot.

Rafale M doesn't fit the elevators without removing the wings dude... Good luck doing that on a carrier deck day in and day out.

India is looking to buy 57 carrier aircraft. A cost of up to $15 billion has been mentioned as the cost if Rafale is ordered. I don't know if that would include the cost of modifying to allow folding wing tips.

Yes, TEDBF is a paper plane but India seeks an independent fast jet design capability. If 57 TEDBF could be designed and built for <$10 billion the savings would more or less pay the cost of getting an indigenous engine design/build capability through a joint venture with RR or SAFRAN. Both have estimated the development cost of an engine for the 5G AMCA as around $6 billion.

kitplane01 wrote:

I don't think that India will become a serious play on the world fighter market in the 2020s because the history of Indian fighter programs is not one of success at producing fighters. For example, the talks about the Tejas started in 1983, the first flight was in 2001, and it was introduced into very limited service in 2015. With that kind of timeline ... I have limited hopes for the Tejas Mk II or the AMCA within the 2020s.

BTW, I think the Tejas Mk 1a could be a nice set of capabilities at it's price point. And I bet there could a market for it too (see discussion on the T-7 combat variant.) But execution matters, and the history is not hopeful.

I also think India won't be much of an exporter in the 2020s, and likely even the 2030s but for a different reason. FWIW, I'm more optimistic about the LCA Mk1a and Mk2 programs (as you know from our previous thread . But even if India manages to start volume production of both fighters by the end of this decade, that's still not enough time to establish a pedigree. Countries importing a fighter are looking for more than just capability and price point. They want operational history, reliability, logistics and maintenance support, etc. Sure, if you're the USA with a long track record, you can presell the F35 to a hundred countries before the first metal is ever cut. But if you're India and this is your first competitive fighter jet, countries will want to see the IAF's experience over at least 5-10 years before deciding to trust the platform. Especially given that competitive fighters are available from countries with longer track records (although perhaps more expensive).

The only way India becomes an exporter sooner is with 2 things: as China continues to antagonize their pacific coast neighbors like Malaysia, Vietnam, Indonesia, etc., it drives them to seek other partners for their military needs. Since military imports also have a foreign policy component (spending billions of dollars supporting another country's defense industry tends to give you leverage), as India gets closer to these SE Asian countries, it might spur defense purchases (this is already happening with e.g. reports of the Philippines being set to buy India's Brahmos missiles).

Secondly, giving them away for free -- sorry, granting lines of credit for smaller countries to buy Indian military equipment. There's definitely value in this as military arms sales can foster closer diplomatic ties but ultimately, it's still basically giving them away, not exactly exporting them for profit.

muralir wrote:

kitplane01 wrote:

I don't think that India will become a serious play on the world fighter market in the 2020s because the history of Indian fighter programs is not one of success at producing fighters. For example, the talks about the Tejas started in 1983, the first flight was in 2001, and it was introduced into very limited service in 2015. With that kind of timeline ... I have limited hopes for the Tejas Mk II or the AMCA within the 2020s.

BTW, I think the Tejas Mk 1a could be a nice set of capabilities at it's price point. And I bet there could a market for it too (see discussion on the T-7 combat variant.) But execution matters, and the history is not hopeful.

I also think India won't be much of an exporter in the 2020s, and likely even the 2030s but for a different reason. FWIW, I'm more optimistic about the LCA Mk1a and Mk2 programs (as you know from our previous thread . But even if India manages to start volume production of both fighters by the end of this decade, that's still not enough time to establish a pedigree. Countries importing a fighter are looking for more than just capability and price point. They want operational history, reliability, logistics and maintenance support, etc. Sure, if you're the USA with a long track record, you can presell the F35 to a hundred countries before the first metal is ever cut. But if you're India and this is your first competitive fighter jet, countries will want to see the IAF's experience over at least 5-10 years before deciding to trust the platform. Especially given that competitive fighters are available from countries with longer track records (although perhaps more expensive).

The only way India becomes an exporter sooner is with 2 things: as China continues to antagonize their pacific coast neighbors like Malaysia, Vietnam, Indonesia, etc., it drives them to seek other partners for their military needs. Since military imports also have a foreign policy component (spending billions of dollars supporting another country's defense industry tends to give you leverage), as India gets closer to these SE Asian countries, it might spur defense purchases (this is already happening with e.g. reports of the Philippines being set to buy India's Brahmos missiles).

Secondly, giving them away for free -- sorry, granting lines of credit for smaller countries to buy Indian military equipment. There's definitely value in this as military arms sales can foster closer diplomatic ties but ultimately, it's still basically giving them away, not exactly exporting them for profit.

Production capacity has to be a factor as well. So many aircraft to replace and not enough coming off the line. India could easily take every Tejas for the next fifteen years and still not have replaced all the aircraft they need to.

SeamanBeaumont wrote:

muralir wrote:

kitplane01 wrote:

I don't think that India will become a serious play on the world fighter market in the 2020s because the history of Indian fighter programs is not one of success at producing fighters. For example, the talks about the Tejas started in 1983, the first flight was in 2001, and it was introduced into very limited service in 2015. With that kind of timeline ... I have limited hopes for the Tejas Mk II or the AMCA within the 2020s.

BTW, I think the Tejas Mk 1a could be a nice set of capabilities at it's price point. And I bet there could a market for it too (see discussion on the T-7 combat variant.) But execution matters, and the history is not hopeful.

I also think India won't be much of an exporter in the 2020s, and likely even the 2030s but for a different reason. FWIW, I'm more optimistic about the LCA Mk1a and Mk2 programs (as you know from our previous thread . But even if India manages to start volume production of both fighters by the end of this decade, that's still not enough time to establish a pedigree. Countries importing a fighter are looking for more than just capability and price point. They want operational history, reliability, logistics and maintenance support, etc. Sure, if you're the USA with a long track record, you can presell the F35 to a hundred countries before the first metal is ever cut. But if you're India and this is your first competitive fighter jet, countries will want to see the IAF's experience over at least 5-10 years before deciding to trust the platform. Especially given that competitive fighters are available from countries with longer track records (although perhaps more expensive).

The only way India becomes an exporter sooner is with 2 things: as China continues to antagonize their pacific coast neighbors like Malaysia, Vietnam, Indonesia, etc., it drives them to seek other partners for their military needs. Since military imports also have a foreign policy component (spending billions of dollars supporting another country's defense industry tends to give you leverage), as India gets closer to these SE Asian countries, it might spur defense purchases (this is already happening with e.g. reports of the Philippines being set to buy India's Brahmos missiles).

Secondly, giving them away for free -- sorry, granting lines of credit for smaller countries to buy Indian military equipment. There's definitely value in this as military arms sales can foster closer diplomatic ties but ultimately, it's still basically giving them away, not exactly exporting them for profit.

Production capacity has to be a factor as well. So many aircraft to replace and not enough coming off the line. India could easily take every Tejas for the next fifteen years and still not have replaced all the aircraft they need to.

There is a theory (and I don't know if it's true) that one of the reasons that China does not export more aircraft is that most of their aircraft use Russian engines, and Russia doesn't want other nations competing with it for international sales. If true, India is lucky to have chosen the American engine.

In fact, I bet many of the important hard-to-get parts of the Tejas (radar, engine, avionics) are foreign made (although by total value is majority Indian).

kitplane01 wrote:

In fact, I bet many of the important hard-to-get parts of the Tejas (radar, engine, avionics) are foreign made (although by total value is majority Indian).

Mk1A
Radar - Israeli AESA ELTA 2052 (indigenous AESA UTTAM radar planned to be installed from frame 21)
Radar radome - UK Cobham (indigenous alternative planned for later production frames)
Engine - US GE404 (no alternative planned)
Refuelling probe - UK Cobham (unknown to me if indigenous alternative planned for later production frames)
Ejection seat - UK MB (no alternative planned)

Mk2
Radar - indigenous AESA UTTAM radar
Radar radome - UK Meggitt Aerospace on pre-production Mk2 (indigenous alternative planned for production frames)
Engine - US GE414 (no alternative yet planned for later frames but could come from a 110kN JV engine spin off)
Refuelling probe - UK Cobham/Indian joint venture
Ejection seat - UK MB (no alternative planned)

Regarding EWS, MAWS, FLIR, IRST etc, I believe that India is taking steps to develop some or all of these.

art wrote:

kitplane01 wrote:

In fact, I bet many of the important hard-to-get parts of the Tejas (radar, engine, avionics) are foreign made (although by total value is majority Indian).

Mk1A
Radar - Israeli AESA ELTA 2052 (indigenous AESA UTTAM radar planned to be installed from frame 21)
Radar radome - UK Cobham (indigenous alternative planned for later production frames)
Engine - US GE404 (no alternative planned)
Refuelling probe - UK Cobham (unknown to me if indigenous alternative planned for later production frames)
Ejection seat - UK MB (no alternative planned)

Mk2
Radar - indigenous AESA UTTAM radar
Radar radome - UK Meggitt Aerospace on pre-production Mk2 (indigenous alternative planned for production frames)
Engine - US GE414 (no alternative yet planned for later frames but could come from a 110kN JV engine spin off)
Refuelling probe - UK Cobham/Indian joint venture
Ejection seat - UK MB (no alternative planned)

Regarding EWS, MAWS, FLIR, IRST etc, I believe that India is taking steps to develop some or all of these.

Development started in 39 years ago. The Mk1 first flew 21 years ago. It's just now coming into service in real numbers. Maybe there will be a Mk2. But if there is, I get your point.