Boeing P-8 Poseidon News, Production and Delivery Thread

bikerthai · Mon Jun 06, 2022 4:20 pm

From what I hear the German government have approved the budget with the 7 P-8s. I just can not find a newer article. We may have to wait a few more hours or the next day.

Edit:

Still not 100% confirmation, but all clues leads to the P-8A.

https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... ping-list/

bt

Noray · Mon Jun 06, 2022 4:35 pm

bikerthai wrote:
From what I hear the German government have approved the budget with the 7 P-8s. I just can not find a newer article. We may have to wait a few more hours or the next day.

Edit:

Still not 100% confirmation, but all clues leads to the P-8A.

https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... ping-list/

bt

That's the same article we've been discussing since yesterday, see #22.

bikerthai · Mon Jun 06, 2022 5:13 pm

We will have to wait for the official announcement then.

Until then we can speculate on what other than P-8A would the German consider.

bt

par13del · Mon Jun 06, 2022 6:14 pm

bikerthai wrote:
Sounds to me the MAWS project is cooked.
bt

I do not think you will see France buying the P8, and with the line winding down they can use the old tech as a crutch. France will have their own patrol a/c, even if not 100% of the P8 capability, it will be 100% non-USA, which seems to be the prime motivator to ensure the European or French industrial base.

bikerthai · Mon Jun 06, 2022 6:47 pm

par13del wrote:
do not think you will see France buying the P8, and with the line winding down they can use the old tech as a crutch.

I agree that higher probabilities that France will not buy P-8s. However, I think the A320 MMA will be to costly for France to go it alone (with out Germany). They may settle on a smaller frames.

par13del wrote:
it will be 100% non-USA,

This will be difficult if they want to be NATO compatible, specially in the field of electronics.

bt

744SPX · Mon Jun 06, 2022 7:47 pm

France should take the opportunity go for a real MPA. the P-1.

par13del · Mon Jun 06, 2022 8:52 pm

744SPX wrote:
France should take the opportunity go for a real MPA. the P-1.

That's a very workable idea, strengthen their ties in Asia, may even allow them to develop future industrial ties, Japan carriers finally went Airbus, so why not a reciprocal with a major European power? The frame is already in operation, they could quickly customize their electronics.
Brilliant thought.

bikerthai · Mon Jun 06, 2022 9:01 pm

par13del wrote:
The frame is already in operation, they could quickly customize their electronics.
Brilliant thought.

Brilliant politically.

Technically? Financially?

Let's just say Boeing seems to know enough about the P-1 to offer an unsolicited bid of the P-8 to Japan. Of course Japan turned them down.

But I guess buying the P-1 may cost less than putting lots of money to develop your own.

I can see that happening . . . but then where is the local industrial participation? I mean at least with the P-8A, you have the CFM connection. With the P-1 you are paying extra dollars to thumb your nose at them uncouth Americans. :mischievous:

bt

744SPX · Tue Jun 07, 2022 12:21 am

bikerthai wrote:
par13del wrote:
The frame is already in operation, they could quickly customize their electronics.
Brilliant thought.

Let's just say Boeing seems to know enough about the P-1 to offer an unsolicited bid of the P-8 to Japan. Of course Japan turned them down.

bt

Boeing seriously did that? :shakehead:

Must be those 737-worshipping bean counters. Can't think of a worse insult than offering an ally an inferior aircraft when said ally invested in their own purpose built, significantly superior aircraft. That's the sort of delusion that raises all kinds of flags.

The only point they could possibly argue is that the P-8 has superior sensors. Platform to platform, its no contest. The P-1 beats the overweight converted airliner like a rented mule.

bikerthai · Tue Jun 07, 2022 12:59 am

744SPX wrote:
The only point they could possibly argue is that the P-8 has superior sensors. Platform to platform, its no contest.

Can't say much about the sensors, but the NAVY keeps upgrading them as time passes, and anyone who fly the P-8A can get them without laying out development costs.

But the thing about the bean counter is probably on point as the P-8A is much cheaper to buy, operate, and maintain. And that was the selling point. I guess the Japanese value pride above price.

Would concur that the P-1 is probably better quality than the P-8A build wise.

bt

par13del · Tue Jun 07, 2022 3:24 am

Imagine if the Japanese were like the French / Europeans and started accusing the USA of being nationalistic and not buying foreign equipment......the USA government could have reacted by getting some P1's for the Coast Guard....

bajs11 · Tue Jun 07, 2022 6:51 am

744SPX wrote:
bikerthai wrote:
par13del wrote:
The frame is already in operation, they could quickly customize their electronics.
Brilliant thought.

Let's just say Boeing seems to know enough about the P-1 to offer an unsolicited bid of the P-8 to Japan. Of course Japan turned them down.

bt

Boeing seriously did that? Must be those 737-worshipping bean counters. Can't think of a worse insult than offering an ally an inferior aircraft when said ally invested in their own purpose built, significantly superior aircraft. That's the sort of delusion that raises all kinds of flags.

The only point they could possibly argue is that the P-8 has superior sensors. Platform to platform, its no contest. The P-1 beats the overweight converted airliner like a rented mule.

bikerthai wrote:
744SPX wrote:
The only point they could possibly argue is that the P-8 has superior sensors. Platform to platform, its no contest.

Can't say much about the sensors, but the NAVY keeps upgrading them as time passes, and anyone who fly the P-8A can get them without laying out development costs.

But the thing about the bean counter is probably on point as the P-8A is much cheaper to buy, operate, and maintain. And that was the selling point. I guess the Japanese value pride above price.

Would concur that the P-1 is probably better quality than the P-8A build wise.

bt

Got any numbers or analyses made by reputable military analysts?

Avatar2go · Tue Jun 07, 2022 7:58 am

As others have noted, the advantages of the P-8 are lower operational and sustainment costs, at the expense of lesser offensive capabilities and low-altitude performance. The sensor suite is designed accordingly, to operate at altitude and to maximize surveillance area.

Other designs such as the P-1, have higher costs but are more effective offensively and at low altitude. And have sensor suites designed to take advantage of those capabilities.

For the US that has many available assets for target prosecution, the lack of offensive capability is not a significant issue. For other countries that may be relying on the aircraft to prosecute targets, it may be an issue.

bikerthai · Tue Jun 07, 2022 10:58 am

bajs11 wrote:
Got any numbers or analyses made by reputable military analysts?

The only numbers available are the FMS sales published by the US Navy. Not sure if there are any available for the P-1.

Avatar2go wrote:
For the US that has many available assets for target prosecution, the lack of offensive capability is not a significant issue. For other countries that may be relying on the aircraft to prosecute targets, it may be an issue.

The P-8 has the full offensive capabilities required for MMA. The argument that the P-1 can operate more efficiently at low altitude which may be true. But it does not mean the P-8A can not drop down on the deck. If you put that argument on its head though, one would ask, has the P-1 been upgraded to be able to drop torpedoes from high altitude? Or operate in situation where high altitude is more advantageous?

If other nations need additional offensive capabilities, its only a matter of puting out money for software upgrade and flight tests.

Here is an article discussing potential upgrades.

https://www.militaryaerospace.com/senso ... a-poseidon.

The Navy also is interested in fitting the Poseidon aircraft with 500-to-2,000-pound versions of the Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM); MK 62, 63, and 65 mines; Small Diameter Bomb (SDB-II); Miniature Air Launched Decoy (MALD); Bomb Rack Unit BRU-55; and Universal Armament Interface (UAI).

Is there an argument to say the P-1 has not won any foreign sales because of Japanese policy? Perhaps when thay policy is dropped, it will make it easier for foreign sales.

bt

bajs11 · Tue Jun 07, 2022 11:10 am

Avatar2go wrote:
As others have noted, the advantages of the P-8 are lower operational and sustainment costs, at the expense of lesser offensive capabilities and low-altitude performance.

Is the P-1 able to fire long range anti-ship missiles like the AGM-158C?

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... -p-8a-mpa/

bikerthai · Tue Jun 07, 2022 11:26 am

bajs11 wrote:
Is the P-1 able to fire long range anti-ship missiles like the AGM-158C?

Probably, but will require money to integrate.

As mentioned, the advantage to the P-8A is not necessarily the performance of the frame. It is the purchasing power if the US NAVY and the constant upgrade in capabilities 30-40 years into the future. Just like the P-3C whose frame is tired, but the upgrades by the USN kept it relevant for so many years.

bt

Avatar2go · Tue Jun 07, 2022 11:27 am

bajs11 wrote:
Avatar2go wrote:
As others have noted, the advantages of the P-8 are lower operational and sustainment costs, at the expense of lesser offensive capabilities and low-altitude performance.

Is the P-1 able to fire long range anti-ship missiles like the AGM-158C?

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... -p-8a-mpa/

Not sure if the P-1 can be retrofitted for the newer and longer range missile. It's designed to engage and operate from lower altitudes, where its weapons array is effective, and more numerous than the P-8.

I wasn't trying to imply superiority of one over the other. Rather to highlight their different philosophies. The US decided to move from primarily low to high altitude activity with the P-8, which changed their strategy and tactics. The Japanese decided to stay with the existing primarily lower altitude activities, and developed a dedicated platform for that in the P-1.

Both have strengths and weaknesses relative to the other. Fortunately we are allies so both can be brought to bear against the China threat.

bikerthai · Tue Jun 07, 2022 11:36 am

Avatar2go wrote:
Not sure if the P-1 can be retrofitted for the newer and longer range missile.

It should be able to if it can handle Harpoons. The interface should be the same, its just a matter of upgrading the software to the stores management system (or at most replacing the SMS computer) and go through the gauntlet of drop and live fire tests.

bt

bikerthai · Tue Jun 07, 2022 11:39 am

Avatar2go wrote:
It's designed to engage and operate from lower altitudes, where its weapons array is effective, and more numerous than the P-8.

For peace time it is fine. With the possibility of man portable AA missiles on fishing boats, during war time, staying low is kind of dangerous.

bt

bajs11 · Tue Jun 07, 2022 11:47 am

bikerthai wrote:
Avatar2go wrote:
Not sure if the P-1 can be retrofitted for the newer and longer range missile.

It should be able to if it can handle Harpoons. The interface should be the same, its just a matter of upgrading the software to the stores management system (or at most replacing the SMS computer) and go through the gauntlet of drop and live fire tests.

bt

pretty sure the Harpoon is quite a bit smaller than the LRASM
and of course it has a much shorter range like 100 (?) nm vs 500

bikerthai · Tue Jun 07, 2022 12:14 pm

bajs11 wrote:
pretty sure the Harpoon is quite a bit smaller than the LRASM

You are right. The LRASM just meet the stores rating on the P-8A wing mount. Can't find data on the P-1.

bt

bikerthai · Tue Jun 07, 2022 12:48 pm

Speaking of upgrades, perhaps these will be in the arsenal in the future for P-8s.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/w ... hip-in-two

The wing hard point should be able to handle the 2000 lb JDAMs.

bt

ZaphodHarkonnen · Wed Jun 08, 2022 1:49 am

bikerthai wrote:

Is there an argument to say the P-1 has not won any foreign sales because of Japanese policy? Perhaps when thay policy is dropped, it will make it easier for foreign sales.

bt

IIRC The P-1 was considered by the NZ government in our recent decision to replace the P-3. The cost compared to the P-8 was likely just too much when the P-8 largely handled what we needed.

Now that doesn't mean countries shouldn't develop their own homegrown systems. It's just that they should explicitly acknowledge the extra cost for retaining that strategic independence.

744SPX · Wed Jun 08, 2022 2:40 am

bajs11 wrote:

Got any numbers or analyses made by reputable military analysts?

I haven't seen any but in terms of platform aero performance, not only is the P-1 superior at low altitude and low speed due to its very low (95 lbs/sq. ft) wing loading, it is also faster and can fly significantly higher than the P-8. So it wins at high altitude as well. Plus you have 4 engine redundancy. The P-1 also has a superior thrust to weight ratio, all the more surprising as it is not subject to twin engine engine-out thrust requirements and already has low wing loading.

The P-8 has relatively high wing loading, on par with the 737-900 and is underpowered to boot. A dangerous combination for anything other than an aircraft that flies within very strict operating parameters (like a passenger aircraft)

...but yes, it is cheaper and more easily integrated with NATO forces

bikerthai · Wed Jun 08, 2022 3:10 am

744SPX wrote:
Plus you have 4 engine redundancy.

That four engine redundancy is what you want when some Chinese hotshot deploys chaffs and flares in front of you!

Another difference is the P-8A is still using cables for controls where the P-1 is fly by light. Talk about opposite end of the spectrum.

bt

744SPX · Thu Jun 09, 2022 1:27 am

bikerthai wrote:
744SPX wrote:
Plus you have 4 engine redundancy.

That four engine redundancy is what you want when some Chinese hotshot deploys chaffs and flares in front of you!

Another difference is the P-8A is still using cables for controls where the P-1 is fly by light. Talk about opposite end of the spectrum.

bt

Good points.

Kiwirob · Fri Jun 10, 2022 9:40 am

It's probably in the previous thread, I was wondering what the takeoff performance is, what length of runway is required for a P-8 at maximum weight, it's not easy to find on the web, I've tried looking for it.

bikerthai · Fri Jun 10, 2022 10:39 am

Not sure the detailed performance of a P-8A would be available. However in general, it would have to meet the same engine out requirement at take off as any commercial 737.

They fly out of Whidbey NAS which has a runway of 8000 ft and Jax at 9000 ft, Sigonola at 8000 ft. So question would be if they are allowed to fly out of these at max weight?

bt

STT757 · Tue Jun 14, 2022 12:52 pm

US Navy Reserve squadrons begin transition from P-3C to P-8s,

https://seapowermagazine.org/navy-air-reserve-begins-transition-to-p-8a-poseidon-aircraft

In addition the Navy will convert two existing active duty to Reserve squadrons, thus establishing four reserve squadrons in total:

https://seapowermagazine.org/navy-proposes-conversion-of-2-active-p-8-squadrons-to-reserve

I'm hoping that two of those four Reserve squadrons are laid down someplace other than Jacksonville and Whidbey Island; Joint Base MDL, NAS JRB New Orleans, NAS Point Mugu etc..

par13del · Tue Jun 14, 2022 2:38 pm

So is the switch to reserve basically to save money on the crews / support personnel but possibly also wear and tear on the equipment?
Would it create a situation as was seen years ago where the Reserves and National Guard were operating sub-standard equipment, my opinion is still that the reason why modern equipment started going to the guard was due to the fall in recruitment numbers, having the reserves operate the same equipment allowed them to be deployed like the regular military as it was much harder to keep them deployed beyond their time.

bikerthai · Thu Jun 16, 2022 1:29 pm

par13del wrote:
my opinion is still that the reason why modern equipment started going to the guard was due to the fall in recruitment numbers,

Everybody is having recruitment problems. In the private industry they could at least get foreign workers. Boeing is scouring the world for tech workers. The recent down turn in the tech industry will help with electrical engineers, but mechanical and aerospace engineers are harder to find. They are actively recruiting in Brazil, India ...

bt

ThePointblank · Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:56 am

Chatter is that the RAF's service chiefs are expressing an interest in an additional 3 P-8's be procured to expand the fleet to 12:

https://www.thedefensepost.com/2022/06/ ... &fs=e&s=cl

And Boeing has partnered with CAE, KF Aerospace, IMP Defence, Honeywell Canada and Raytheon Canada to offer the P-8 to Canada under the Canadian Multi-Mission Aircraft requirement:

https://seapowermagazine.org/boeing-tea ... &fs=e&s=cl

Daetrin · Sat Jun 25, 2022 2:34 pm

bikerthai wrote:
par13del wrote:
my opinion is still that the reason why modern equipment started going to the guard was due to the fall in recruitment numbers,

Everybody is having recruitment problems. In the private industry they could at least get foreign workers. Boeing is scouring the world for tech workers. The recent down turn in the tech industry will help with electrical engineers, but mechanical and aerospace engineers are harder to find. They are actively recruiting in Brazil, India ...

bt

Boeing treats its tech workers very poorly, so I'm surprised that anyone is surprised that they are having trouble recruiting. Lots of politics, not the best pay, big pressure to outsource your job or move it to a lower cost of work location. Why work for the Boeing Borg when you can make more money with less fuss elsewhere.

bikerthai · Sat Jun 25, 2022 6:15 pm

Daetrin wrote:
Why work for the Boeing Borg when you can make more money with less fuss elsewhere.

A lot of truths. Boeing does pay less than others. Their health benefits, though not as generous as before, is still top notch.

Yes their work as not as exciting as say Space-X, but the company is big enough that if the drone don't line one place, they can always transfer to other locations or other fields. Good drones can basically go where ever they want. East-coaster? There's Philly. Left coaster? Huntington and Long Beach (engineering only, not much production), Tree huggers? Washington's the place to be. Sun and desert? MESA has the AH-64. Hearland? T-7 is still in Missouri.

For internationals, it is probably easier to get into Boeing than other aerospace companies.

bt

bikerthai · Fri Jul 22, 2022 2:51 pm

First NZ aircraft out of paint hangar.

https://youtu.be/sgi0XDueXXM

bt

JetBuddy · Sat Jul 23, 2022 12:37 pm

bikerthai wrote:
First NZ aircraft out of paint hangar.

https://youtu.be/sgi0XDueXXM

bt

I find it ironic that the New Zealand Air Force uses a flightless bird in it's roundel.

Anyways, good looking aircraft. And absolutely necessary for a nation like New Zealand.

Kiwirob · Sat Jul 23, 2022 3:44 pm

JetBuddy wrote:
bikerthai wrote:
First NZ aircraft out of paint hangar.

https://youtu.be/sgi0XDueXXM

bt

I find it ironic that the New Zealand Air Force uses a flightless bird in it's roundel.

Anyways, good looking aircraft. And absolutely necessary for a nation like New Zealand.

On the tail is the wandering albatross, that more than makes up for the kiwis lack of wings.

JetBuddy · Sat Jul 23, 2022 4:28 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:
bikerthai wrote:
First NZ aircraft out of paint hangar.

https://youtu.be/sgi0XDueXXM

bt

I find it ironic that the New Zealand Air Force uses a flightless bird in it's roundel.

Anyways, good looking aircraft. And absolutely necessary for a nation like New Zealand.

On the tail is the wandering albatross, that more than makes up for the kiwis lack of wings.

True! Impressive wingspan.

Bhavyavelani · Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:47 pm

Air Works Group India’s Oldest and Largest Maintenance, Repair, and Overhaul (MROs) organization have delivered the 6th Boeing P-8I aircraft to Boeing and the Indian Navy.

Air Works Group carried out the 32 Phase Checks on Boeing P-8I maritime aircraft. The Heavy Maintenance checks are carried out at their world-class facility at Hosur, Tamil Nadu in India.

The News is Reported by Aviation A2z:- https://aviationa2z.com/index.php/2022/08/05/air-works-successfully-delivers-6th-boeing-p-8i-to-indian-navy-after-32-phase-checks-exclusive/

angad84 · Sat Aug 13, 2022 6:12 pm

Bhavyavelani wrote:
Air Works Group India’s Oldest and Largest Maintenance, Repair, and Overhaul (MROs) organization have delivered the 6th Boeing P-8I aircraft to Boeing and the Indian Navy.

Air Works Group carried out the 32 Phase Checks on Boeing P-8I maritime aircraft. The Heavy Maintenance checks are carried out at their world-class facility at Hosur, Tamil Nadu in India.

The News is Reported by Aviation A2z:- https://aviationa2z.com/index.php/2022/08/05/air-works-successfully-delivers-6th-boeing-p-8i-to-indian-navy-after-32-phase-checks-exclusive/

Few people will realise how significnat this is for Boeing, the IN and AirWorks. I'm a huge fan of how the P-8I is being managed in India, kudos to the Naval air wallahs and Boeing.

bikerthai · Fri Aug 19, 2022 6:53 pm

UK P-8A participate in its first rescue operation.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-62600186

Also NZ first P-8A flew for the first time.

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... rst-flight

bt

BobLoblah · Sat Oct 01, 2022 7:37 pm

Did anyone catch the line number for MSN 67009 which first flew in Sept? 9411?

bikerthai · Mon Oct 03, 2022 4:02 pm

9411 was a UN airframe that flew over the hill a few months back.

During the August September time frame, it could have been 9601-9603. These are either NZ (albatross on the rudder) or ROK big Ying/Yang roundel.

bt

RobK · Mon Oct 03, 2022 9:27 pm

BobLoblah wrote:
Did anyone catch the line number for MSN 67009 which first flew in Sept? 9411?

Bikerthai is the resident P8 "expert" so I'm sure he'll have all the details.

bikerthai · Mon Oct 03, 2022 9:55 pm

RobK wrote:
Bikerthai is the resident P8 "expert" so I'm sure he'll have all the details.

Except i'm not familiar with the MSN, so no help there.
:?:

bt

BobLoblah · Tue Oct 04, 2022 2:18 am

thanks everyone. Mostly what I know is that BOE126 flew RNT to BFI 9/6/22. The 126 bit seems to imply it us for the US Navy but frames have moved around in the past. I don't know the MSN for certain, line#, or customer, Boeing will let us know the latter on the 11th. They seem to be skipping around a bit recently for some reason.

bikerthai · Tue Oct 04, 2022 2:33 am

If it was Boe126 then it is as you said, USN airframe. I believe you may have the line number correct as well. And yes there is something going on with line numbers. It will be obvious sometime in the near future.

bt

bhxdtw · Tue Oct 04, 2022 4:35 pm

Hi guys, thought I'd post this as it just went overhead and looking at the route it raised some questions.

Why would a P8 leave Florida, fly all the way to Saginaw Michigan, go around a few times, then go home? Maybe some kind of testing? A show?

https://fr24.com/2db64db3

eskimotail · Wed Oct 05, 2022 1:10 am

Called Airways Trainer
Military Pilots and crews that have spent or are going to spend 95 percent of their flying time staying away from continental boundaries need to cement for future or regain missing recency of experience mixing it up in the ATC IFR environment. Pilot upgrades and foreign pilots need same real world exposure. Pick a spot, fly there and back, probably some bodies home town.

bhxdtw · Wed Oct 05, 2022 2:52 am

eskimotail wrote:
Called Airways Trainer
Military Pilots and crews that have spent or are going to spend 95 percent of their flying time staying away from continental boundaries need to cement for future or regain missing recency of experience mixing it up in the ATC IFR environment. Pilot upgrades and foreign pilots need same real world exposure. Pick a spot, fly there and back, probably some bodies home town.

Interesting... I love stuff like this. Understanding stuff that seems out of place but have legit reasons for.

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