Boeing P-8 Poseidon News, Production and Delivery Thread

SQ22 · Thu Dec 31, 2020 1:49 pm

Welcome to the Boeing P-8 Poseidon News, Production and Delivery Thread 2021. Please continue your discussion and to post your updates here.

Link to previous thread:

Boeing P-8 Poseidon Production and Delivery Thread - 2020

bikerthai · Thu Dec 31, 2020 4:17 pm

A101 wrote:
I read somewhere the options agreement expires at the end of the year

Makes much more sense on such an order late in the year.

The options reserve a place in line. So I guess if the options expires and the RAAF wants more, they would have to negotiate a new contract and get US gov approval again. Just more paperwork.

bt

texl1649 · Thu Dec 31, 2020 4:29 pm

bikerthai wrote:
I believe you may be thinking about UK cutting back the E-7.

bt

Oh you’re right, sorry. That was a few months ago, not sure their spending review was ever published. In my little head I was just thinking RAF 737’s.

A101 · Thu Dec 31, 2020 10:45 pm

bikerthai wrote:
A101 wrote:
I read somewhere the options agreement expires at the end of the year

Makes much more sense on such an order late in the year.

The options reserve a place in line. So I guess if the options expires and the RAAF wants more, they would have to negotiate a new contract and get US gov approval again. Just more paperwork.

bt

Not sure about the approval part as its a continuity sale of the same item just the price would have to be renegotiated from what I understand of the process

Nothing on FMS about the additional aircraft

https://www.dsca.mil/major-arms-sales/a ... ate/202012

bikerthai · Thu Dec 31, 2020 11:13 pm

A101 wrote:
Not sure about the approval part as its a continuity sale of the same item just the price would have to be renegotiated from what I understand of the process

All foreign weapon sale would have to be spelled out and approved by congress. If these two were exercised options, then they would have been approved by Congress with the original purchase.

If what was noted above is true that the options expired in 2020, then I believe any new block purchase would have to be approved by Congress again.

bt

BobLoblah · Thu Jan 14, 2021 3:48 am

I may have missed it, but did N604DS MSN 66100 have its first flight last week? Anyone know the line number on this one?

Mortyman · Wed Feb 03, 2021 6:09 pm

The first of 5 Boeing P-8 Poseidon " Viking " for the Royal Norwegian air Force is in production

These will be Maritime Multimission Aircraft (MMA)

Boeing announced that their subcontractor Spirit Aerosystems has started the construction of the fuselage of the first P-8A Poseidon for the Norway Defence Forces late January 2021.

The first P-8A for the Luftforsvaret is expected to be delivered in 2022, the final and fifth aircraft in 2023.

https://www.scramble.nl/military-news/p ... lWVvMs9zbI

bikerthai · Thu Feb 04, 2021 3:44 pm

5th UK P-8A delivered directly to Lossiemouth from Seattle. Previous delivery came through JAX.

They flew the polar route, 8300 km non-stop.

Wonder if this is going to be a trend for all future UK/Norway deliveries.

bt

BobLoblah · Tue Feb 09, 2021 3:20 am

First flight today (2/8) of BOE117. This is reported by boefamily.flights to be N610DS, MSN 66102. Future operator and line# not listed.

bikerthai · Tue Feb 09, 2021 4:22 am

Boe117, my guess would be another US NAVY frame.

bt

bikerthai · Tue Feb 09, 2021 4:44 am

Unless the US congress approve more P-8 in the next year or so, you will start to see more international frames coming through Renton.

They have the remaining UK frames, NZ and Korea as well as India and the RAAF option that was excersized at the end of last year.

Expect any potential operators to make their final decision in the next year or two to get their order in before the line shut down.

bt

WoodysAeroimag · Wed Mar 03, 2021 4:26 am

Latest Indian Navy P-8I departs Renton on its first flight today.

IN330 Indian Navy Boeing P-8I Neptune (737-8FV) - C/N 64892 / LN 8526 by Woodys Aeroimages, on Flickr

seahawks7757 · Fri Mar 12, 2021 8:27 am

I really need to get a UK one.

trex8 · Sat Mar 13, 2021 9:13 pm

Congressional notification sent for 5 for Germany
https://www.dsca.mil/press-media/major- ... ed-support

bikerthai · Sat Mar 13, 2021 9:59 pm

trex8 wrote:
Congressional notification sent for 5 for Germany
https://www.dsca.mil/press-media/major- ... ed-support

From the press release:

Germany currently operates the Lockheed P-3C Orion, but that aircraft is reaching end-of-life and will retire in 2024. Germany plans to replace it with the P-8A Poseidon.

This statement tells me it's that it's more or less a done deal. :crossfingers:

There is nothing out there with comparable capabilities that will be available in that time frame.

bt

WoodysAeroimag · Tue Mar 16, 2021 3:46 am

169571 rolled out of paint.

WoodysAeroimag · Tue Mar 16, 2021 3:52 am

169570 rolled out a week ago and is still at RNT along with 169571 that rolled out today.

RobK · Wed Mar 17, 2021 10:22 am

WoodysAeroimag wrote:
169571 rolled out of paint.

Nice. One more USN to follow this then 3x RAFs in a row, then first Norwegian and another Indian after.

VSMUT · Wed Mar 17, 2021 10:34 am

bikerthai wrote:
trex8 wrote:
Congressional notification sent for 5 for Germany
https://www.dsca.mil/press-media/major- ... ed-support

From the press release:

Germany currently operates the Lockheed P-3C Orion, but that aircraft is reaching end-of-life and will retire in 2024. Germany plans to replace it with the P-8A Poseidon.

This statement tells me it's that it's more or less a done deal.

There is nothing out there with comparable capabilities that will be available in that time frame.

bt

Rather misleading statement, it is only a contender, Germany hasn't made a decision. According to FlugRevue, Germany is looking for an interim replacement for the P-3 from 2025, until the A320neo based replacement enters service in 2035.

https://www.flugrevue.de/militaer/ersat ... on-kaufen/

Too expensive for an interim solution

However, it is far from certain whether Germany can and will afford the five jets for the Navy. The funds required have not yet been recorded in the defense budget, and the financing of the armaments project has expressly not yet been secured. In addition, there is still the plan that a Franco-German maritime patrol aircraft based on the Airbus A320neo will take over the scepter from 2035, so that the Orion successor should only be a temporary solution. As such, the P-8 would definitely be too expensive.

According to the Federal Ministry of Defense, there are three possible replacements: the Turboprops Airbus (CASA) C-295 "Persuader" and the RAS 72 from Rheinland Air Service and the Boeing P-8A Poseidon from the USA.

bikerthai · Wed Mar 17, 2021 12:49 pm

VSMUT wrote:
Rather misleading statement, it is only a contender, Germany hasn't made a decision. According to FlugRevue, Germany is looking for an interim replacement for the P-3 from 2025, until the A320neo based replacement enters service in 2035.

Look pass the official wording and look at the "contenders", and you'll see the P-8A is the only option that will provide the capability at the required time line with the least risk.

The only problem is cost. But if they have an exit strategy on resale of the P-8 when the A320 comes on line, then the high upfront cost can somewhat be offset by the high resale value at the end.

At leat when the UK bought their P-8, they were up front about their options and settled on the P-8 without so much as a bid. Their excuse? Capability gap and schedule. Sound familiar?

Remember, putting stuff out for bid also pushes your time line out and risk a drawn out litigation process from the loser.

bt

RobK · Wed Mar 17, 2021 1:02 pm

VSMUT · Wed Mar 17, 2021 1:18 pm

bikerthai wrote:
Remember, putting stuff out for bid also pushes your time line out and risk a drawn out litigation process from the loser.

Competitive bidding ensures transparency and equality. It prevents corruption. Suggesting we should do away with such central democratic principles sounds an awful lot like something a corporate shill would say.

texl1649 · Wed Mar 17, 2021 2:09 pm

When would Germany be able to procure/receive them if Boeing did get such a contract (thru FMS)? Isn’t the P-8 line booked thru 2025?

bikerthai · Wed Mar 17, 2021 4:21 pm

VSMUT wrote:
Competitive bidding ensures transparency and equality. It prevents corruption.

There's more than one way to get transparency. The FMS buy when bundled with the US Navy block buy guarantee no shenanigan as the US Navy already negotiated a competitive price.

texl1649 wrote:
When would Germany be able to procure/receive them if Boeing did get such a contract (thru FMS)? Isn’t the P-8 line booked thru 2025?

With the current booked order, and a build rate of one every 3 weeks, Germany can get a frame between 2 to to 2.5 years after contract. You can look at the UK buy for comparison. Note that as back-log is reduced, Boeing may stretch it out a little. But pressure from the Commercial side to shut down the NG line will prevent it from stretching too far out.

bt

ThePointblank · Wed Mar 17, 2021 11:03 pm

texl1649 wrote:
When would Germany be able to procure/receive them if Boeing did get such a contract (thru FMS)? Isn’t the P-8 line booked thru 2025?

Germany could also negotiate with the USN to take aircraft already in production, and the USN will just add replacement frames at the end of production. The US DoD is fairly flexible when dealing with FMS orders in reallocating production slots to other customers if requested.

bikerthai · Thu Mar 18, 2021 12:00 am

ThePointblank wrote:
Germany could also negotiate with the USN to take aircraft already in production, and the USN will just add replacement frames at the end of production.

This was done with the early UK frame(s). There was also some jostling of some RAAF frame(s).

After this year, there are not many US frames left. I believe there are three out in the future that Congress added on. Follow on US order may be possible, but with the current climate, it may be iffy.

bt

LTEN11 · Thu Mar 18, 2021 1:06 am

VSMUT wrote:
bikerthai wrote:
Remember, putting stuff out for bid also pushes your time line out and risk a drawn out litigation process from the loser.

Competitive bidding ensures transparency and equality. It prevents corruption. Suggesting we should do away with such central democratic principles sounds an awful lot like something a corporate shill would say.

Competitive bidding is great as long as everybody plays by the same rules. Works great right up till the time that lunch meeting becomes a weekend at a luxury resort and then a junket to see how the product is made and the exclusive use of luxury cars and so on. You know, something along the lines of a bullshit castle. There is always somebody prepared to bend the rules to get the desired result, so a competitive bidding process will always come with risks of corruption.

In the case of the P-8, unless you are prepared to look seriously at the Japanese offering, there really isn't currently comparable, so an FMS purchase through the U.S. Navy is going to be a pretty safe, best cost option.

bikerthai · Thu Mar 18, 2021 2:34 am

Competitive bidding works great if the product being bid upon is proven and has a track record. For developmental hardware it is difficult to gauge how much more work there needs to be done by what the bidder tell you. And if you chose wrong you'll end up having to pay more to work out glitches that was left out of during the bid process.

The KC-46 and F-35 are examples of competitive bids that still went haywire.

bt

texl1649 · Thu Mar 18, 2021 2:26 pm

The US FMS process also works to provide a 'fair' price I believe, as it standardizes what is offered to the foreign buyers. The German acquisition process tends to be quite costly it would seem to me, leading to very lengthy standard cycles and might not afford the capabilities needed in the timeframe required (see; heavy lift helicopter).

Are a few 50-year old Atlantique frames (they were produced from 61 thru 87, not sure what is offered) really all they need until an A320 derivative is finally delivered and mission capable toward 2035? (No, it won't happen before that).

bikerthai · Thu Mar 18, 2021 2:49 pm

texl1649 wrote:
The US FMS process also works to provide a 'fair' price I believe,

The true saving with the P-8A would be if the FMS buy could be combined with the US Navy Lot buy, that way you can get the benefit of a bulk buy. That is how the UK and AUS benefited.

Not sure if there will be a next lot buy from the Navy to tag along though. Although there may be some additional top up order from existing customers that could bring the price down.

bt

WoodysAeroimag · Sat Mar 20, 2021 9:00 pm

RobK wrote:
WoodysAeroimag wrote:
169571 rolled out of paint.

Nice. One more USN to follow this then 3x RAFs in a row, then first Norwegian and another Indian after.

The following P8 Fuselages are in final assembly right now.

8642 US Navy
8680 RAF
8719 RAF

and outside is 8757 RAF

Rob - Do you happen to know the LN of the Norwegian P8?

RobK · Sat Mar 20, 2021 9:56 pm

8796 afaik.

Did you see the Belavia the other day? I have a suspicion that these are ntu as the later ones are showing as Boeing ownership now. Its visit to MWH might have been for prep for a new operator. However it did fly back with its Belarus hex so maybe not. It's in C6.

BobLoblah · Sat Mar 20, 2021 10:28 pm

First flight yesterday (3/19) of BOE118 for the US Navy, presumably 169750. This is reported by boefamily.flights to be N612DS, MSN 66103. Line# not listed.

WoodysAeroimag · Sun Mar 21, 2021 2:03 am

RobK wrote:
8796 afaik.

Did you see the Belavia the other day? I have a suspicion that these are ntu as the later ones are showing as Boeing ownership now. Its visit to MWH might have been for prep for a new operator. However it did fly back with its Belarus hex so maybe not. It's in C6.

Thank you - I didn't catch it but another local spotter did. I'll post a link in the 737 Max thread

WoodysAeroimag · Sun Mar 21, 2021 2:09 am

BobLoblah wrote:
First flight yesterday (3/19) of BOE118 for the US Navy, presumably 169750. This is reported by boefamily.flights to be N612DS, MSN 66103. Line# not listed.

It's actually 169570 LN 8565

RobK · Sun Mar 21, 2021 2:18 am

I've noticed that the recent P-8s no longer have the blob at the top of the tail. Satcom?

WoodysAeroimag · Sun Mar 21, 2021 2:59 am

RobK wrote:
I've noticed that the recent P-8s no longer have the blob at the top of the tail. Satcom?

That gets installed once it goes over to BFI for the military hardware installation. 169565 has it.

Reddevil556 · Sun Mar 21, 2021 10:36 am

Out of curiosity what is the device installed on the top of the vertical stabilizer? I have seen some birds with it and some without. I know the US P-8s have it, but I don't see it on some of the export variants.

Unrelated I wonder why the P-8 has the raked winglets but the KC46 doesn't. Weight not worth the gain in aerodynamics?

RobK · Sun Mar 21, 2021 12:34 pm

The KC46 doesn't fly at slow speed 100ft above the ocean for long periods.

bikerthai · Sun Mar 21, 2021 1:20 pm

Reddevil556 wrote:
Out of curiosity what is the device installed on the top of the vertical stabilizer?

Some of the schematic available through the web shows it's the Inmarsat antenna.

RobK wrote:
The KC46 doesn't fly at slow speed 100ft above the ocean for long periods.

And neither does the P-8A. Most off the time it flies at medium altitude and use its camera and sensors/radar for wide area search. It only drop down low when it sees something worth investigating.

With the new high altitude weapon and sonobuoy deployment capability it doesn't even have to drop down low to release torpedoes.

The rake wingtip increased the range and loiter time for the P-8A. It would have done the same for the KC-46, but at the time it was only available for the 767-400 and putting it on the KC-46 would mean additional qual work and extra cost which were unnecessary to meet the requirements.

There were some early promotional posters showing the 737 MMA with winglets. The rake wingtip provide less view blockage to the observer window and is more efficient than the winglets for longer flight times.

bt

Mortyman · Mon Mar 22, 2021 8:18 am

Anyone know when the first Norwegian P-8 will do it's first flight ?

bikerthai · Mon Mar 22, 2021 1:08 pm

I'm estimating around 5 months from the India flight noted two weeks above. This assumes they are still on a 3 week cycle.

As mentioned above it will come after 3 consecutive UK frames.

bt

889091 · Mon Mar 22, 2021 1:42 pm

Just curious. Should an in-flight bail out become necessary, which door will be used?

From the pictures I have seen, all doors except 1L/R and the overwing emergency exits, have been plugged. How will the crew exit the plane and parachute to safety?

bikerthai · Mon Mar 22, 2021 1:57 pm

They kept the aft left door for bail out. They only plugged the aft right.

Kind of hard to see but you can see the yellow stripe near the forward and aft left door in Woody's photo above.

At least one aft exit door is required as there are seats after the mission racks and there has to be an accessible exist in case a rack block the aile during a ditching.

The over wing exist are also kept for evacuation. If you look at pictures of the floor plan, you'll see the area in front of the over wing exists are kept clear of equipment.

There were trials of crew exiting he over wing doors with artic suites on.

bt

889091 · Thu Mar 25, 2021 1:24 am

bikerthai wrote:
They kept the aft left door for bail out. They only plugged the aft right.

Kind of hard to see but you can see the yellow stripe near the forward and aft left door in Woody's photo above.

At least one aft exit door is required as there are seats after the mission racks and there has to be an accessible exist in case a rack block the aile during a ditching.

The over wing exist are also kept for evacuation. If you look at pictures of the floor plan, you'll see the area in front of the over wing exists are kept clear of equipment.

There were trials of crew exiting he over wing doors with artic suites on.

bt

Thanks bikerthai. I see it now.

It is however, mightily close to the horizontal stabilizer. Is there a 'pole' (Space Shuttle style) that extends downwards that gets them out of the slipstream after they bail out? And I assume the chances of the cockpit crew bailing out is next to impossible as they have to sprint almost the entire length of the aircraft to get to the door.

Space Shuttle:
https://mfwright.com/shuttlejump.html

bikerthai · Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:03 am

Not aware of any pole. Perhaps the downward wing wash would push the jumper under the tail.

I would suspect they would slow down quite a bit before bailing. That would mean a lot of lift from the wings, so there would be quite a bit off downward wash.

If you look at a side view, you'll see the stabilizer is already at the top part of the door. It should not take much to duck under it as you go out. They probably have a bail out technique that they train for to avoid the stabilizer.

bt

Mortyman · Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:40 pm

Royal Norwegian Air force, Illustration photo only:

BobLoblah · Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:18 am

First flight today of BOE119 for the US Navy, presumably 169571. This is reported by boefamily.flights to be N619DS, MSN 66104. Someone reported this to be ln# 8603. I think it was Rob or Woody but I neglected to document it in my notes.

BobLoblah · Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:22 am

Boeing announces an additional order for 11 frames. 9 to the US Navy and 2 to the Royal Australian Air Force.

https://boeing.mediaroom.com/news-relea ... tem=130845

bikerthai · Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:44 am

So does that means the US Navy will get more than the original 117 frames envisioned?

bt

Who is online

Popular Searches On Airliners.net