Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
mxaxai
Topic Author
Posts: 3102
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

French air force increases aircraft readiness rates

Fri Jan 14, 2022 12:59 pm

Through a 4-year program initiated by Florence Parly in 2018, France has managed to improve the readiness rates of all systems.
Tweet by the spokesman of the ministry of defence with an excerpt: https://twitter.com/HerveGrandjean/stat ... 13/photo/1
Image

Fixed wing:
Rafale M from 53% to 61%
Rafale C from 53% to 55%
Atlantique 2 from 24% to 31%
A400M from 27% to 35%

Helicopters:
Tiger from 29% to 35%
Dauphin&Panther from 40% to 46%
Cougar from 24% to 31%

Others:
Attachable pods from 47% to 54%
 
User avatar
SeamanBeaumont
Posts: 238
Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2021 3:12 am

Re: French air force increases aircraft readiness rates

Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:54 pm

mxaxai wrote:
Through a 4-year program initiated by Florence Parly in 2018, France has managed to improve the readiness rates of all systems.
Tweet by the spokesman of the ministry of defence with an excerpt: https://twitter.com/HerveGrandjean/stat ... 13/photo/1
Image

Fixed wing:
Rafale M from 53% to 61%
Rafale C from 53% to 55%
Atlantique 2 from 24% to 31%
A400M from 27% to 35%

Helicopters:
Tiger from 29% to 35%
Dauphin&Panther from 40% to 46%
Cougar from 24% to 31%

Others:
Attachable pods from 47% to 54%

Not sure it's worth being proud of a lot of that, how much extra cash to get marginal improvements...
 
User avatar
LyleLanley
Posts: 635
Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2019 9:33 pm

Re: French air force increases aircraft readiness rates

Fri Jan 14, 2022 9:43 pm

So the A400 has a long way to go before reaching the C-5A's MC rate... in 1996?

F-35 critics should take note before you talk sh1t about it's availability. Wow.
 
GDB
Posts: 14987
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

Re: French air force increases aircraft readiness rates

Fri Jan 14, 2022 9:56 pm

Interesting that the Marine Rafales had a greater improvement than their AF counterparts.
 
User avatar
kitplane01
Posts: 2404
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2016 5:58 am

Re: French air force increases aircraft readiness rates

Sat Jan 15, 2022 12:47 am

mxaxai wrote:
Atlantique 2 from 24% to 31%
A400M from 27% to 35%
Tiger from 29% to 35%
Cougar from 24% to 31%
Attachable pods from 47% to 54%


How is this not terrible?

I gotta think a 777 is more complex than a Cougar, Tiger, or even an "attachable pod". Air France must get 90%+ availability.

Seriously ... this looks terrible.
 
johns624
Posts: 5158
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: French air force increases aircraft readiness rates

Sat Jan 15, 2022 1:38 am

I'd like to see comparable German figures.
 
User avatar
Francoflier
Posts: 6166
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2001 12:27 pm

Re: French air force increases aircraft readiness rates

Sat Jan 15, 2022 2:57 am

johns624 wrote:
I'd like to see comparable German figures.


I'd like to compare this with anything at all, in fact. It's very abstract out of context.
 
stratable
Posts: 160
Joined: Mon Sep 23, 2019 12:22 pm

Re: French air force increases aircraft readiness rates

Sat Jan 15, 2022 4:18 am

johns624 wrote:
I'd like to see comparable German figures.


https://www.bmvg.de/resource/blob/53253 ... t-data.pdf

Happy reading [in German], was just released - Google or Bing translate also work reasonably well. No percentage figures though sorry.

Leopard 2 tanks look pretty good. Receiving and having more PUMAs available is an urgent priority.
There are some issues with the Tiger helicopters both in terms of availability and keeping technology up to date.
Keeping the Tornados flying until 2030 is expected to become more challenging due to maintenance requirements and technical obsolescenses - the report suggests urgently making a decision about a successor.

Navy looks pretty solid.

A400M has been at 36 units since May 2021 of 53 ordered total with one of those 36 currently at Airbus in Spain.
Apparently problems mainly center around strengthening the industrial base to support the aircraft.

Eurofighter Captor-E integration delayed due to technological difficulties, however overall aircraft availability is improving. Interestingly, Germany expects to take on more responsibility in
maintaining and developing technologies for the Eurofighter to keep the aircraft in service until 2050 if no other major customers firm up orders.
Here, it is mentioned that all Eurofighters will eventually be upgrade to Tranche 4 status: https://www.defensenews.com/outlook/202 ... hallenges/

Bundeswehr to increase number of conscripted full-time soldiers from roughly 170,000 to 203,000 by 2027.

According to the report I first cited, Bundeswehr is relatively on track to meet its long-term operational goals and capabilities as lined out in the 2016 and 2018 major long-term planning papers.

Edit:
This news report has some percentage figures which were apparently sourced from the Ministry of Defense (I just skimmed the above report, maybe they're buried somewhere):
https://www.n-tv.de/politik/Drei-von-vi ... 57191.html

Main weapon systems' availability rate (not clear which ones are included in this): 77%
Helicopters (NH90, Tiger, etc.): 40%
PUMA: 65%
 
GDB
Posts: 14987
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

Re: French air force increases aircraft readiness rates

Sat Jan 15, 2022 8:10 am

[photoid][/photoid]
Francoflier wrote:
johns624 wrote:
I'd like to see comparable German figures.


I'd like to compare this with anything at all, in fact. It's very abstract out of context.


Exactly! Looking again, what happened in Australia with Tiger, (poor customer support on top of an even worse contract) IMHO, do those who always rubbish others, especially Europeans, even know that Tigers have been employed, in action, in the Mali/North Africa region against Islamist terrorism? It’s a very desolate place to fight, operate and maintain complex systems. Even the crack Legionnaires and SF troops call it ‘Planet Mars’ and it’s far from a new region for them.
So even a small deployment of Tigers there likely means they have to ship and maintain a pile of spares in the area, they’ve operated there for some years now, these spares will come from both the units and any central pool, including the manufacturers.

Same applies to the Cougar force, however what of the much more veteran SA.330 Puma force it was originally derived from? I bet they are not on the figures since there was no need for this program, as they have been in service since the late 60’s/early 70’s, have been built and sold around the world in large numbers for a long time, including in French operations on deployments in this and other challenging regions for most of this period.
Also too, until recently, maybe still is, the SA.341 Gazelle, very large numbers in service for a long time and much used in action.

Most of the support comes by air, guess which type has been increasingly doing this tasking, as older types like the Transall leave service, the A400M.

I would be interested to see how other AF’s types fared on availability when even a small force is deployed, that is if you are not a superpower with by comparison almost unlimited money and size of inventory to throw at any problems.
I know that when a chunk of the well established and large RAF Tornado force went to the Gulf in 1990/91 the spares were stripped from across the force, same applied to the Army, I suspect that types new in service/small numbers even in US service had the same.
And this with Cold War force levels still intact at the time.

But the most important thing, aside from all of the above, is that the figures are moving in the right direction, I wonder if that irritates some?
 
User avatar
Spacepope
Posts: 5779
Joined: Tue Dec 28, 1999 11:10 am

Re: French air force increases aircraft readiness rates

Sat Jan 15, 2022 3:25 pm

I think most of the Atlantique improvement was just by completely retiring the ELINT ones that were always broken. 3 out of 12? bad! 3 out of 10? Less bad!
 
Bordeauxline
Posts: 5
Joined: Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:14 pm

Re: French air force increases aircraft readiness rates

Sat Jan 15, 2022 5:07 pm

kitplane01 wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
Atlantique 2 from 24% to 31%
A400M from 27% to 35%
Tiger from 29% to 35%
Cougar from 24% to 31%
Attachable pods from 47% to 54%


How is this not terrible?

I gotta think a 777 is more complex than a Cougar, Tiger, or even an "attachable pod". Air France must get 90%+ availability.

Seriously ... this looks terrible.


I don't think maintenance on a airliner is more difficult than on military equipment. The stress and training on them are certainly not the same.
I am not a mechanic, but considering the number of g on a military aircraft, control and context (dust, sand for operation in Mali, projectiles and other), it's no surprise availability is greatly reduced compared to civil aircraft.
 
User avatar
Spacepope
Posts: 5779
Joined: Tue Dec 28, 1999 11:10 am

Re: French air force increases aircraft readiness rates

Sat Jan 15, 2022 6:07 pm

Whoops my mistake, I was thinking about the "Gabriel" ELINT Transalls that were parked.




Still, strike the paperweights off the list and you'll no doubt increase readiness stats.
 
wingman
Posts: 4296
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 4:25 am

Re: French air force increases aircraft readiness rates

Sat Jan 15, 2022 6:21 pm

Many on both sides of the alliance have been arguing for more spending and preparedness for decades, so it's hard to imagine anyone being unhappy at the gross improvement. I say gross because it's not just the percentages relative to other allied forces but the relative cost to achieve and maintain that readiness level, consistently over time. So what does it cost Italy, Spain, Germany and France to have 25 EFs ready to fly into combat airspace against trained forces on the level of Russia's over the course of a full year? And what percentage of the overall EF fleets does the "ready fleet" represent? Most of what I read is griping about % of GDP spending on defense, but a better start might be to mandate an efficiency of actual spend target that ties to minimum levels of combat readiness for 24/7 response, one day response, or one month. One thing I'll say about the French, they take their missions seriously and in any deadly scenario I'd always want them on my end.
 
tomcat
Posts: 979
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2000 4:14 am

Re: French air force increases aircraft readiness rates

Sat Jan 15, 2022 9:48 pm

About the Rafale C, Greece has taken delivery of a few used ones in 2021. If the Armée de l'air has taken delivery of an equal number of new ones in the meantime, this alone could explain the improvement of the readiness rate of the Rafale C.

But indeed, there is an improvement of the readiness rate across the board and this is more than welcome in the current state of the relationship between the western countries and Russia. I had in my to do list to evaluate the fighter assets that the NATO countries could mobilise in the short term in case of need. Next to that I was also thinking at finding the average age of these assets in each NATO country. These French figures are a good start for me.
 
wingman
Posts: 4296
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 4:25 am

Re: French air force increases aircraft readiness rates

Sat Jan 15, 2022 10:29 pm

Your post made me realize my error linking France to EFs.
 
tomcat
Posts: 979
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2000 4:14 am

Re: French air force increases aircraft readiness rates

Sat Jan 15, 2022 11:39 pm

I just realized that the Mirage 2000C/D are missing from this presentation while about 100 of them are still in service (as many as the Rafale C per Wikipedia). This is a significant omission.
 
User avatar
kitplane01
Posts: 2404
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2016 5:58 am

Re: French air force increases aircraft readiness rates

Sun Jan 16, 2022 5:26 am

Bordeauxline wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
Atlantique 2 from 24% to 31%
A400M from 27% to 35%
Tiger from 29% to 35%
Cougar from 24% to 31%
Attachable pods from 47% to 54%


How is this not terrible?

I gotta think a 777 is more complex than a Cougar, Tiger, or even an "attachable pod". Air France must get 90%+ availability.

Seriously ... this looks terrible.


I don't think maintenance on a airliner is more difficult than on military equipment. The stress and training on them are certainly not the same.
I am not a mechanic, but considering the number of g on a military aircraft, control and context (dust, sand for operation in Mali, projectiles and other), it's no surprise availability is greatly reduced compared to civil aircraft.


Air France get get 90%+ on a 777. Every day every year. The French Air Force gets 35% on A400. How many G's and how many hard landings are the A400s going? Not many is my guess, but the 777s are flying 5x as many hours per year. The Cougar helicopter runs at 31%. Our local helicopter ambulance service would go bankrupt at those rates (and they don't get to preplan their missions, they have to be ready 24/7/365).

Everyone thinks the line at the DMV has to be long, school has to be boring, and military equipment readiness rates have to suck. But these things are possible to fix.
 
User avatar
kitplane01
Posts: 2404
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2016 5:58 am

Re: French air force increases aircraft readiness rates

Sun Jan 16, 2022 5:31 am

wingman wrote:
Many on both sides of the alliance have been arguing for more spending and preparedness for decades, so it's hard to imagine anyone being unhappy at the gross improvement. I say gross because it's not just the percentages relative to other allied forces but the relative cost to achieve and maintain that readiness level, consistently over time. So what does it cost Italy, Spain, Germany and France to have 25 EFs ready to fly into combat airspace against trained forces on the level of Russia's over the course of a full year? And what percentage of the overall EF fleets does the "ready fleet" represent? Most of what I read is griping about % of GDP spending on defense, but a better start might be to mandate an efficiency of actual spend target that ties to minimum levels of combat readiness for 24/7 response, one day response, or one month. One thing I'll say about the French, they take their missions seriously and in any deadly scenario I'd always want them on my end.


It's possible to buy more equipment than you can operate. One advantage is that it's sometimes quicker to hire new mechanics than build new planes therefore your actual working force can grow quicker in an emergency. But I don't think that's France's plan. I *think* they plan on operating everything they buy, and therefore need to rebalance their spending.

My guess .. if you gave them more money they would buy more equipment, which doesn't actually help readiness rates.

People spend money on their priorities, and actual working airplanes is not one of them.
 
GDB
Posts: 14987
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

Re: French air force increases aircraft readiness rates

Sun Jan 16, 2022 11:16 am

tomcat wrote:
I just realized that the Mirage 2000C/D are missing from this presentation while about 100 of them are still in service (as many as the Rafale C per Wikipedia). This is a significant omission.


Perhaps for the same reason I mentioned above with older choppers, so well established it was never included in these figures not being a concern with availability?
The attack oriented twin seaters are still active and effective in their roles.
 
GDB
Posts: 14987
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

Re: French air force increases aircraft readiness rates

Sun Jan 16, 2022 11:17 am

GDB wrote:
tomcat wrote:
I just realized that the Mirage 2000C/D are missing from this presentation while about 100 of them are still in service (as many as the Rafale C per Wikipedia). This is a significant omission.


Perhaps for the same reason I mentioned above with older choppers, so well established it was never included in these figures not being a concern with availability?
The attack oriented twin seaters are still active in operations and effective in their roles.
 
Noray
Posts: 254
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:28 am

Re: French air force increases aircraft readiness rates

Sun Jan 16, 2022 2:03 pm

kitplane01 wrote:
Bordeauxline wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:

How is this not terrible?

I gotta think a 777 is more complex than a Cougar, Tiger, or even an "attachable pod". Air France must get 90%+ availability.

Seriously ... this looks terrible.


I don't think maintenance on a airliner is more difficult than on military equipment. The stress and training on them are certainly not the same.
I am not a mechanic, but considering the number of g on a military aircraft, control and context (dust, sand for operation in Mali, projectiles and other), it's no surprise availability is greatly reduced compared to civil aircraft.


Air France get get 90%+ on a 777. Every day every year. The French Air Force gets 35% on A400. How many G's and how many hard landings are the A400s going? Not many is my guess, but the 777s are flying 5x as many hours per year. The Cougar helicopter runs at 31%. Our local helicopter ambulance service would go bankrupt at those rates (and they don't get to preplan their missions, they have to be ready 24/7/365).

Everyone thinks the line at the DMV has to be long, school has to be boring, and military equipment readiness rates have to suck. But these things are possible to fix.

Are these figures comparable at all? Are they collected in the same way?

Does readiness for civilian aircraft mean readiness for scheduled flights, while the maintenance periods aren't counted, as you don't schedule flights and maintenance simultaneously? In contrast, military aircraft are supposed to be mission ready 24/7, and if they're in maintenance, they're counted as not mission ready.

A civilian aircraft that flies during the day will get regular maintenance at night. Does the military work that way in peace time?

As long as I don't know the details of the respective analyses, I will suspect populist nonsense.

Beyond that, there are various reasons for higher vulnerability of military goods. They have more systems that can fail. They're optimised for fighting and high performance rather than routine work and maintenance. Combine this with the fact that they're being produced in smaller numbers and spare parts aren't as easy to get.
Last edited by Noray on Sun Jan 16, 2022 2:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 11264
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: French air force increases aircraft readiness rates

Sun Jan 16, 2022 2:21 pm

Well I wonder what the readiness rate was when the a/c were brand new from the factory, IMHO it would show whether the purchase cost did not include enough to have trained maintainers and spares, and if it did and the rates were above what we see today, it could give a hint as to why these machines were purchased.
 
johns624
Posts: 5158
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: French air force increases aircraft readiness rates

Sun Jan 16, 2022 2:37 pm

GDB wrote:
[p
that is if you are not a superpower with by comparison almost unlimited money and size of inventory to throw at any problems.
Think how many spares spending that 2% on defense could buy? It has nothing to do with being a superpower. Maybe less on new, shiny equipment and more on maintaining what you already have?
 
GDB
Posts: 14987
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

Re: French air force increases aircraft readiness rates

Sun Jan 16, 2022 3:23 pm

johns624 wrote:
GDB wrote:
[p
that is if you are not a superpower with by comparison almost unlimited money and size of inventory to throw at any problems.
Think how many spares spending that 2% on defense could buy? It has nothing to do with being a superpower. Maybe less on new, shiny equipment and more on maintaining what you already have?


How much ARE they spending? I don't mean simple headline and rounded up figures to compare with others, what's the direction of travel for instance;
https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... nce-budget

Note the bulk is on equipment, including spares presumably.
Then there are the extras, since 2015 France has experienced several serious Islamist attacks, the military domestically would be a part of the response to that, not in big ticket items but I mention it to remind that France has it seems almost as many separate police forces as the US. From normal cops to large units of a more distinct paramilitary nature, are they part of the defence budget or more likely, funded from domestic law enforcement?

Then the nuclear component, never cheap, certainly not for France which still also aside from the SSBN's retains a 'theater' component with the ASMP stand off weapons, not as with the NATO arrangement rather older traditionally dropped bombs.
While it is still far from cheap, the UK just has to design, build, operate the SSBN's and the warheads, matching them to the Trident D5 was why presumably the UK paid 5% of the development costs of that missile. Still, not as expensive as France.

To use the innuendo laced term 'it's not how big but what you do with it', I don't seeing France skimping here, they had involvement in Afghanistan, Libya (that one was largely driven by them including screwing up the end game along with British PM Cameron), as mentioned the extended and difficult operations against Islamists in the Mali/Chad region.
Even looking after the facility where recently the James Webb Space Telescope was launched from.
Also highlighting deployments and security operations, largely but not always former French colonies.

This is why in my view, it's a false narrative to compare various European countries on defence spending.
Certainly after the 2008 financial crisis French spending took a hit, were they unique in this? No, the massively botched UK review of 2010 was another example.
It all seems to me to be 'Top Trumps' thinking, taking one or more figures to highlight a whole, real life, especially in this area, is more complex.
 
geomap
Posts: 20
Joined: Sun Mar 10, 2019 7:58 pm

Re: French air force increases aircraft readiness rates

Sun Jan 16, 2022 7:31 pm

Francoflier wrote:
johns624 wrote:
I'd like to see comparable German figures.


I'd like to compare this with anything at all, in fact. It's very abstract out of context.

Here is one source for USAF Fighters: https://www.airforcemag.com/usaf-fighte ... scal-2020/

Fighters 2019 Mission Capable Rate 2020 Mission Capable Rate
F-15C 70.05% 71.93%
F-15D 72.45% 70.52%
F-15E 71.29% 69.21%
F-16C 72.97% 73.90%
F-16D 70.37% 72.11%
F-22A 50.57% 51.98%
F-35A 61.6% 76.07%

Are these numbers even comparable? I'd love to understand it the definition of "mission capable" is even close to being the same.
 
User avatar
kitplane01
Posts: 2404
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2016 5:58 am

Re: French air force increases aircraft readiness rates

Mon Jan 17, 2022 7:30 am

Noray wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:
Bordeauxline wrote:

I don't think maintenance on a airliner is more difficult than on military equipment. The stress and training on them are certainly not the same.
I am not a mechanic, but considering the number of g on a military aircraft, control and context (dust, sand for operation in Mali, projectiles and other), it's no surprise availability is greatly reduced compared to civil aircraft.


Air France get get 90%+ on a 777. Every day every year. The French Air Force gets 35% on A400. How many G's and how many hard landings are the A400s going? Not many is my guess, but the 777s are flying 5x as many hours per year. The Cougar helicopter runs at 31%. Our local helicopter ambulance service would go bankrupt at those rates (and they don't get to preplan their missions, they have to be ready 24/7/365).

Everyone thinks the line at the DMV has to be long, school has to be boring, and military equipment readiness rates have to suck. But these things are possible to fix.

Are these figures comparable at all? Are they collected in the same way?

Does readiness for civilian aircraft mean readiness for scheduled flights, while the maintenance periods aren't counted, as you don't schedule flights and maintenance simultaneously? In contrast, military aircraft are supposed to be mission ready 24/7, and if they're in maintenance, they're counted as not mission ready.

A civilian aircraft that flies during the day will get regular maintenance at night. Does the military work that way in peace time?

As long as I don't know the details of the respective analyses, I will suspect populist nonsense.

Beyond that, there are various reasons for higher vulnerability of military goods. They have more systems that can fail. They're optimised for fighting and high performance rather than routine work and maintenance. Combine this with the fact that they're being produced in smaller numbers and spare parts aren't as easy to get.


Of course they are not collected the same way. And of course I don't know Air France's actual readiness rates.

But I really hope we both agree that
(1) 777 is more complex than a Cougar,
(2) Air France puts 5x as many hours on it's 777s than the military does on it's Cougars
(3) the French military says it gets a 31% readiness rate on the Cougar
(4) and whatever the definition of readiness is, Air France has way more than 31% if it's 777s ready.

You can quibble over definitions, but these claims seem very true.
 
Bordeauxline
Posts: 5
Joined: Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:14 pm

Re: French air force increases aircraft readiness rates

Mon Jan 17, 2022 12:11 pm

kitplane01 wrote:

Of course they are not collected the same way. And of course I don't know Air France's actual readiness rates.

But I really hope we both agree that
(1) 777 is more complex than a Cougar,
(2) Air France puts 5x as many hours on it's 777s than the military does on it's Cougars
(3) the French military says it gets a 31% readiness rate on the Cougar
(4) and whatever the definition of readiness is, Air France has way more than 31% if it's 777s ready.

You can quibble over definitions, but these claims seem very true.

It may be true, but seems like maintenance on helicopter is more difficult than on aircraft:
https://traxxall.com/successfully-track ... intenance/
https://sassofia.com/blog/helicopter-ma ... -programs/
https://www.airmedandrescue.com/latest/ ... nce-safety

But well it is also comparing apple to orange, the missions are certainly not the same.
 
TheSonntag
Posts: 4675
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 7:23 pm

Re: French air force increases aircraft readiness rates

Mon Jan 17, 2022 12:28 pm

Don't forget that all those readiness numbers have a political component. If you want funding, you try to show numbers to be worse than they are. Public perception in Germany is that Bundeswehr is completely unable to fight and useless.

When looking back at the Kabul operation last year - we saw 5 A400M from Bundeswehr in constant action. Yes, it was a more or less civilian role, since they were flying to a regular airfield, but nevertheless they seemingly did a good job.
 
User avatar
Francoflier
Posts: 6166
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2001 12:27 pm

Re: French air force increases aircraft readiness rates

Mon Jan 17, 2022 1:04 pm

geomap wrote:
Francoflier wrote:
johns624 wrote:
I'd like to see comparable German figures.


I'd like to compare this with anything at all, in fact. It's very abstract out of context.

Here is one source for USAF Fighters: https://www.airforcemag.com/usaf-fighte ... scal-2020/

Fighters 2019 Mission Capable Rate 2020 Mission Capable Rate
F-15C 70.05% 71.93%
F-15D 72.45% 70.52%
F-15E 71.29% 69.21%
F-16C 72.97% 73.90%
F-16D 70.37% 72.11%
F-22A 50.57% 51.98%
F-35A 61.6% 76.07%

Are these numbers even comparable? I'd love to understand it the definition of "mission capable" is even close to being the same.


Thanks.
Now I guess the question is; is that 'readiness' calculated the same way between most western air forces?
 
User avatar
kitplane01
Posts: 2404
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2016 5:58 am

Re: French air force increases aircraft readiness rates

Mon Jan 17, 2022 6:17 pm

Bordeauxline wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:

Of course they are not collected the same way. And of course I don't know Air France's actual readiness rates.

But I really hope we both agree that
(1) 777 is more complex than a Cougar,
(2) Air France puts 5x as many hours on it's 777s than the military does on it's Cougars
(3) the French military says it gets a 31% readiness rate on the Cougar
(4) and whatever the definition of readiness is, Air France has way more than 31% if it's 777s ready.

You can quibble over definitions, but these claims seem very true.

It may be true, but seems like maintenance on helicopter is more difficult than on aircraft:
https://traxxall.com/successfully-track ... intenance/
https://sassofia.com/blog/helicopter-ma ... -programs/
https://www.airmedandrescue.com/latest/ ... nce-safety

But well it is also comparing apple to orange, the missions are certainly not the same.


You've got to be kidding! Seriously, I wonder if you're being serious.

A 777 cost over $100M, and weighs about 370,000 lb. A Cougar costs under $10M, and weighs 1/37th as much. The 777 flies about 300 hours/month. The Cougar probably files about 300 hours/year.
 
mxaxai
Topic Author
Posts: 3102
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: French air force increases aircraft readiness rates

Mon Jan 17, 2022 7:50 pm

kitplane01 wrote:
Air France get get 90%+ on a 777. Every day every year.

90% would be disastrous for a commercial aircraft. The SSJ - known for its "horrible russian reliability" - reportedly sits at around 97%. Boeing and Airbus widebodies have a target of 99.5% (+-0.1%).
Those figures don't include scheduled maintenance, though, and also isn't a per-aircraft metric but per flight instead. So you can't compare the numbers directly.

I guess that's just the difference between commercial operations and the government. Perhaps France should privatize their air force?

Francoflier wrote:
Thanks.
Now I guess the question is; is that 'readiness' calculated the same way between most western air forces?

No. 3 examples I could find.
USAF/GAO (2020): Percentage of total time when the aircraft can perform at least one mission (out of its theoretical capabilities).
RAF (2011): Proportion of some defined operational period during which the equipment is available without performance limitations.
France (2008): Average percentage of aircraft that can fly at least one mission within the next 6 hours.
 
User avatar
sebolino
Posts: 3613
Joined: Tue May 29, 2001 11:26 pm

Re: French air force increases aircraft readiness rates

Tue Jan 18, 2022 5:28 pm

mxaxai wrote:
I guess that's just the difference between commercial operations and the government. Perhaps France should privatize their air force?
.


For sure, it would be much easier if the army was making money :-)
The numbers are disastrous, but I guess they just reflect the (lack of) investments in maintenance.
 
johns624
Posts: 5158
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: French air force increases aircraft readiness rates

Tue Jan 18, 2022 8:44 pm

GDB wrote:
[
I would be interested to see how other AF’s types fared on availability when even a small force is deployed, that is if you are not a superpower with by comparison almost unlimited money and size of inventory to throw at any problems.
I know that when a chunk of the well established and large RAF Tornado force went to the Gulf in 1990/91 the spares were stripped from across the force, same applied to the Army, I suspect that types new in service/small numbers even in US service had the same.
And this with Cold War force levels still intact at the time.
Having to do this shows that it's a political problem and not a financial one. The government is not funding the military for all the operations that that same government wants the military to perform.
 
User avatar
LyleLanley
Posts: 635
Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2019 9:33 pm

Re: French air force increases aircraft readiness rates

Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:45 am

It's almost as if the reliability of the aircraft in a military branch is the proportional result of investment in both personnel and spare parts, and if you go cheap in either your rates are terrible... Weird.

Think of the last 18 year old ATP you've seen at CDG, or the last time JAL had to hit up their cann bird in order to make a takeoff and you've figured out why the mx rates suck compared to the airlines. Conversely, think of the last time you've had the 60 year old line supervisor who knows every last rivet of his/her jet qualify in the M-16 or gas mask.
 
User avatar
kitplane01
Posts: 2404
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2016 5:58 am

Re: French air force increases aircraft readiness rates

Wed Jan 19, 2022 5:49 am

LyleLanley wrote:
It's almost as if the reliability of the aircraft in a military branch is the proportional result of investment in both personnel and spare parts, and if you go cheap in either your rates are terrible... Weird.

Think of the last 18 year old ATP you've seen at CDG, or the last time JAL had to hit up their cann bird in order to make a takeoff and you've figured out why the mx rates suck compared to the airlines. Conversely, think of the last time you've had the 60 year old line supervisor who knows every last rivet of his/her jet qualify in the M-16 or gas mask.


It's also almost as if lobbyists make more money selling new airplanes, and less money when the Air Force recruits more maintainers.
 
User avatar
LyleLanley
Posts: 635
Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2019 9:33 pm

Re: French air force increases aircraft readiness rates

Wed Jan 19, 2022 6:20 pm

kitplane01 wrote:
It's also almost as if lobbyists make more money selling new airplanes, and less money when the Air Force recruits more maintainers.


To a certain extent you’re not wrong, but there are two concepts not covered by your shady-salesman hypothesis: funding priorities and manning shortfalls. Basically robbing Peter to pay Paul. I’ll use two examples from the KC-10 to demonstrate.

Years ago, when the peace dividend was in full swing, the newly established AMC changed the KC-10 parts allocation so instead of replacing parts on a schedule, minimizing unexpected mx, they flew the parts to failure and replaced them afterwards. This saved a decent amount of money but the aircraft’s reliability suffered. Airlines pay for that reliability but AMC had higher priorities to fund (the over budget C-17) and limited ways to move money around so they raided the O&M budget to make up for the shortfall.

~ 2010, the AF had severe mx manning shortfalls in 5 and 7 levels in many heavy aircraft. The KC-10, on the other hand, was doing pretty well. Because the AF can’t just “hire more maintainers” because there are congressionally mandated manpower limits for the military branches - the AF can’t just bring in 10,000 more people because it’s short of burger-flippers, they gutted the 5 and 7 level KC-10 maintenance roster and non-vol’d them to other airframes, such as the already dying and overworked C-130E/H. This had nothing to do with shady businessmen trying to pawn the C-130J on the fleet, but manning shortfalls caused by a variety of reasons.

These changes had jack $hit to do with finding reasons for a new tanker, as the KC-10 still has AMC’s highest reliability rate. It had to do with funding priorities and manning shortfalls, just like any large business, but having a much more constrained budget and hiring ability.
 
User avatar
kitplane01
Posts: 2404
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2016 5:58 am

Re: French air force increases aircraft readiness rates

Wed Jan 19, 2022 6:32 pm

LyleLanley wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:
It's also almost as if lobbyists make more money selling new airplanes, and less money when the Air Force recruits more maintainers.


To a certain extent you’re not wrong, but there are two concepts not covered by your shady-salesman hypothesis: funding priorities and manning shortfalls. Basically robbing Peter to pay Paul. I’ll use two examples from the KC-10 to demonstrate.

Years ago, when the peace dividend was in full swing, the newly established AMC changed the KC-10 parts allocation so instead of replacing parts on a schedule, minimizing unexpected mx, they flew the parts to failure and replaced them afterwards. This saved a decent amount of money but the aircraft’s reliability suffered. Airlines pay for that reliability but AMC had higher priorities to fund (the over budget C-17) and limited ways to move money around so they raided the O&M budget to make up for the shortfall.

~ 2010, the AF had severe mx manning shortfalls in 5 and 7 levels in many heavy aircraft. The KC-10, on the other hand, was doing pretty well. Because the AF can’t just “hire more maintainers” because there are congressionally mandated manpower limits for the military branches - the AF can’t just bring in 10,000 more people because it’s short of burger-flippers, they gutted the 5 and 7 level KC-10 maintenance roster and non-vol’d them to other airframes, such as the already dying and overworked C-130E/H. This had nothing to do with shady businessmen trying to pawn the C-130J on the fleet, but manning shortfalls caused by a variety of reasons.

These changes had jack $hit to do with finding reasons for a new tanker, as the KC-10 still has AMC’s highest reliability rate. It had to do with funding priorities and manning shortfalls, just like any large business, but having a much more constrained budget and hiring ability.



I totally believe everything you wrote.

Another possibility would be for the USAF to only buy as many aircraft as it could operate. This would produce a smaller USAF. But with the same manning and budget, there would be a higher readiness rate. Priorities are reveled by where you spend your money,
 
User avatar
LyleLanley
Posts: 635
Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2019 9:33 pm

Re: French air force increases aircraft readiness rates

Thu Jan 20, 2022 12:44 am

kitplane01 wrote:
I totally believe everything you wrote.

Another possibility would be for the USAF to only buy as many aircraft as it could operate. This would produce a smaller USAF. But with the same manning and budget, there would be a higher readiness rate. Priorities are reveled by where you spend your money,


Ah, like getting rid of aging aircraft so it can better support the ones it already has and buy its replacements which are much more easily maintained? Please tell your congresspersons, because they're the ones preventing that from happening. You don't see Congress preventing Delta from retiring the 717 or UA from retiring the 757 and then marveling that its sustainment costs are going through the roof.

As aircraft age they require more maintenance, both in labor and in parts, for every hour they fly. This means you either work your maintainers more or you hire more maintainers. Personnel caps mean the AF can't hire more maintainers, so the ones they have are worked harder and are thus less likely to stay in. Why stay in, deploy to a $hithole country for 6 months every 18, and have to do all sorts of ancillary bull$hit when you can be hired at an airline who truly values your talents, compensates you accordingly, and doesn't call you in at 2 AM on Saturday because there's a no-notice exercise going on, just like the other one you did two months ago? Parts? When an item is MEL'd at an airline there's a limit to how often the jet can be flown in that condition. In the AF, the sky is the limit. The phrase to remember is "the last crew took it", as ops and maintenance duke it out at their weekly blame-game meetings. If it gets really bad, they'll cann the part from another jet. Problem kicked down the road.

Unfortunately, and for many reasons, a smaller AF with the same manning and more parts is just not tenable. Airframes and manning ebb and flow. You have an all-volunteer force and thousands of aircraft on wildly different utilization, retirement, and replacement schedules, combined with the inevitable cost-overruns (which can happen on any project, not just government pork contracts). Prioritization is needed because not everything is as important as everything else. Which means something will get the short stick. That's just how life works. Not to mention the economies of scale mean that having fewer aircraft would cost more to support, per aircraft, and now you're penny-wise and pound-foolish with not having as many aircraft to accomplish your military goals.
 
GDB
Posts: 14987
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

Re: French air force increases aircraft readiness rates

Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:45 am

johns624 wrote:
GDB wrote:
[
I would be interested to see how other AF’s types fared on availability when even a small force is deployed, that is if you are not a superpower with by comparison almost unlimited money and size of inventory to throw at any problems.
I know that when a chunk of the well established and large RAF Tornado force went to the Gulf in 1990/91 the spares were stripped from across the force, same applied to the Army, I suspect that types new in service/small numbers even in US service had the same.
And this with Cold War force levels still intact at the time.
Having to do this shows that it's a political problem and not a financial one. The government is not funding the military for all the operations that that same government wants the military to perform.


Or reflected that the conventional fighting phase of Cold War planning would not last all that long, the UK even after withdrawal East Of Sues, was still spending a lot more than the NATO Cold War average. 10% GDP in 1970, small wonder our economic performance lagged.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: ssteve and 17 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos