https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/ (in Asia-Pacific news)

Thailand has F-16 and Gripen. Which one will they want to buy? With a $400+ million allocation, they could not buy a different type, surely, although F-35 is mentioned.

Or does this perhaps refer to buying LIFT aircraft?

https://www.bangkokpost.com/thailand/ge ... ealth-jets

There's a previous report from Bangkok Post last month that RTAF showed a strong desire for F-35 and didn't even mention any other type. They even claimed they can get the deal cheaper than Gripen

Relating this to the thread about French air force readiness rates ... Try and imagine the readiness rate Thailand will achieve with exactly f-o-u-r fighters.

Why are they buying f-o-u-r fighters? They already have 14 Gripens and 51 F-16As. Buy something you already operate!

Nimda wrote:

https://www.bangkokpost.com/thailand/general/2240091/air-force-eyes-f-35-stealth-jets

There's a previous report from Bangkok Post last month that RTAF showed a strong desire for F-35 and didn't even mention any other type. They even claimed they can get the deal cheaper than Gripen

Their budget is four fighters this year and then continuing each year, if they can afford it...

Probably those 14 unfinished gripens c may be cheap but no one seems to be buying...

kitplane01 wrote:

Relating this to the thread about French air force readiness rates ... Try and imagine the readiness rate Thailand will achieve with exactly f-o-u-r fighters.

Why are they buying f-o-u-r fighters? They already have 14 Gripens and 51 F-16As. Buy something you already operate!

Four now more later. I doubt they will get F-35s, the Thai's have been too cozy with the Chinese lately. Yes more F-16s or Gripen would make sense...

kitplane01 wrote:

Relating this to the thread about French air force readiness rates ... Try and imagine the readiness rate Thailand will achieve with exactly f-o-u-r fighters.

Why are they buying f-o-u-r fighters? They already have 14 Gripens and 51 F-16As. Buy something you already operate!

As mentioned in the French AF readiness thread, unlike Thailand, France has been engaged since since Jan 2013 in Mali, as well as operations against Islamic State and in this period, Afghanistan.
Whatever the Thai AF are doing it’s not at the range and tempo France is dealing with. So no comparison at all, with a lack of knowledge and disparagement of allies who are fighting and taking casualties against the same enemy the US is.

It would be silly I agree if the Thai AF blow this on a tiny number of another type, senior officers in their AF might wish for F-35 but they would ineffectual in such small numbers.
But, Thailand once brought the smallest aircraft carrier (outfitted for jets) of the modern era, with US and/or Spanish AV-8A’s which barely flew, along with ex US A-7’s also hardly used, so not always the most logical on procurement.
What power does the Thai military have, well they have staged coups in recent decades and this is a country which has an insane definition of disrespecting the King, if that was the UK just about comedian or even light family entertainer would be locked up! Not to mention the media in general.

You can buy 4 F-35's for $400 million but you could not use them, so how would they propose to start on the route of getting 8 up and running F-35's over a few years? I have a feeling that $400 million would not buy the training, SIM, ground handling equipment, spares and other logistics required to fly any aircraft procured. Plus unless weapons already owned by RTAF can be used, they will need to be paid for as well.

SeamanBeaumont wrote:

Nimda wrote:

https://www.bangkokpost.com/thailand/general/2240091/air-force-eyes-f-35-stealth-jets

There's a previous report from Bangkok Post last month that RTAF showed a strong desire for F-35 and didn't even mention any other type. They even claimed they can get the deal cheaper than Gripen

Their budget is four fighters this year and then continuing each year, if they can afford it...

Probably those 14 unfinished gripens c may be cheap but no one seems to be buying...

kitplane01 wrote:

Relating this to the thread about French air force readiness rates ... Try and imagine the readiness rate Thailand will achieve with exactly f-o-u-r fighters.

Why are they buying f-o-u-r fighters? They already have 14 Gripens and 51 F-16As. Buy something you already operate!

Four now more later. I doubt they will get F-35s, the Thai's have been too cozy with the Chinese lately. Yes more F-16s or Gripen would make sense...

"Four now more later"?

If the contract was four, with an option for another 30, I'd understand. But buying airframes in small numbers does not seem like a great way to get a good deal on the purchase price.

kitplane01 wrote:

Relating this to the thread about French air force readiness rates ... Try and imagine the readiness rate Thailand will achieve with exactly f-o-u-r fighters.

Why are they buying f-o-u-r fighters? They already have 14 Gripens and 51 F-16As. Buy something you already operate!

and they have one each sitting/hanging in their Air Force museum doing nothing.....

best regards
Thomas

Gripen C or even E should be the most logical choice here. You don't order 4! of a new type!, especially the F-35. Different if they ordered 20-30 to replace the F-16.

SQ's initial F-35 order is for only 4 F-35B. Perhaps Thailand wants some too.

mxaxai wrote:

SQ's initial F-35 order is for only 4 F-35B. Perhaps Thailand wants some too.

Not surprising as the B could likely be integrated onboard the HTMS Chakri Naruebet if some work was done to the carrier, and the B is the only game in town for VSTOL strike aircraft.

FlapOperator wrote:

mxaxai wrote:

SQ's initial F-35 order is for only 4 F-35B. Perhaps Thailand wants some too.

Not surprising as the B could likely be integrated onboard the HTMS Chakri Naruebet if some work was done to the carrier, and the B is the only game in town for VSTOL strike aircraft.

That boat hardly sails and the Thais retired the Av-8s in 2006. If they want F-35B it isn't to operate from the Chakri...

SAS A340 wrote:

Gripen C or even E should be the most logical choice here. You don't order 4! of a new type!, especially the F-35. Different if they ordered 20-30 to replace the F-16.

They don't seem happy with Gripen so I can't see them ordering anymore. Logical to get more but logic isn't an RTAF strong point.

mxaxai wrote:

SQ's initial F-35 order is for only 4 F-35B. Perhaps Thailand wants some too.

The Singapore (not SQ ) order is for evaluation of the F-35. You know that a serious order will follow once evaluation shows that the F-35 is ready for operational deployment - Singapore only places an official order once the aircraft can be operationally deployed. In the background, the planning for having the SG F-16 fleet replaced by the F-35 is probably complete and training has already started and there is probably already a production schedule.

Best example for Singapore's approach is the order of the G550AEW: the order was in April 2007 and first delivery in Feb 2009: that is only possible if years of background collaboration work has been done before the order was official.

Thailand has no such approach. The F-35 makes no sense for them.

SeamanBeaumont wrote:

FlapOperator wrote:

mxaxai wrote:

SQ's initial F-35 order is for only 4 F-35B. Perhaps Thailand wants some too.

Not surprising as the B could likely be integrated onboard the HTMS Chakri Naruebet if some work was done to the carrier, and the B is the only game in town for VSTOL strike aircraft.

That boat hardly sails and the Thais retired the Av-8s in 2006. If they want F-35B it isn't to operate from the Chakri...

SAS A340 wrote:

Gripen C or even E should be the most logical choice here. You don't order 4! of a new type!, especially the F-35. Different if they ordered 20-30 to replace the F-16.

They don't seem happy with Gripen so I can't see them ordering anymore. Logical to get more but logic isn't an RTAF strong point.

I'm curious why you think that and wha their complaint is.

"They don't seem happy with Gripen so I can't see them ordering anymore. Logical to get more but logic isn't an RTAF strong point."
From what I understand Gripen is the best they have and recently funded it for the latest MS20 which will add more capability like the meteor for instance. What are they unhappy with and who are "they"?
According to commander Group Captain Prachya Tippayarat: “Everything is on our shoulders,
For us as operators, the aircraft is very good, and we would love to have many more,” says Tippayarat.

Taking a leaf out of their airline's book.

A330s - B777s - A340s - B787s - A380s - B747s - A350s

kitplane01 wrote:

SeamanBeaumont wrote:

FlapOperator wrote:

Not surprising as the B could likely be integrated onboard the HTMS Chakri Naruebet if some work was done to the carrier, and the B is the only game in town for VSTOL strike aircraft.

That boat hardly sails and the Thais retired the Av-8s in 2006. If they want F-35B it isn't to operate from the Chakri...

SAS A340 wrote:

Gripen C or even E should be the most logical choice here. You don't order 4! of a new type!, especially the F-35. Different if they ordered 20-30 to replace the F-16.

They don't seem happy with Gripen so I can't see them ordering anymore. Logical to get more but logic isn't an RTAF strong point.

I'm curious why you think that and wha their complaint is.

Been twelve years since they ordered their second set, only bringing them to 12, while intent was to eventually replace their entire F-5 fleet. In 2013 they said they would order more but still haven't. Instead the F-5s have been upgraded to what the Thai's say is comparable to the Gripen in capability and the F-5 fleet is still three times the size. It has taken them five years to stump up a limited amount of money to upgrade the Gripen to MS20 even after they had a hull loss to an issue that MS20 would have prevented. Saab have a set of Gripen whitetails sitting around doing nothing and going for a good price, Thailand hasn't taken them. If I was a betting man would suggest the WVR performance isn't what they want, the Thai's love dogfighting! Losing to the Chinese vanilla flankers, even though they spanked them BVR, probably doesn't sit well. Performance in thin humid hot air isn't the same as thick cold air in Nordic hot tubs. Maybe even supporting the aircraft from Thailand is harder, they are the only operator around their neighbourhood.

Instead they are looking at other options and budgeted money for such.

Heard from the local Thai Arm Force discussion group that RTAF are okay with Gripen but unhappy when dealing with Saab's sales representative in Thailand. So they aren't ordering them anymore. (don't take this seriously since it's just a rumour)

FlapOperator wrote:

mxaxai wrote:

SQ's initial F-35 order is for only 4 F-35B. Perhaps Thailand wants some too.

Not surprising as the B could likely be integrated onboard the HTMS Chakri Naruebet if some work was done to the carrier, and the B is the only game in town for VSTOL strike aircraft.

At first I thought he was referring to a joke that TG buys everything that SQ already had or ordered them.

Anyway, I'm afraid that retrofitting the Chakri isn't that easy. Judging from the size of its existing aircraft elevator it probably can't fit F-35B. And RTN didn't have that much money to spend as they're still struggling with Chinese Yuan-class submarine deal.

I've yet to see a Chinese export weapons system perform to spec, which is sad since most of these are near give away price.

Thailand air force says U.S. has denied request to buy F-35 jets

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 023-05-25/

According to the link below, Thailand may buy 3 more Gripen and consider French fighters (which I take to mean Rafales) to replace its F-16 jets.

https://www.turdef.com/article/thailand ... -over-f-16

I would have thought that KF-21 would be of more interest to Thailand than Rafale - cheaper to buy (and operate?) and perhaps could use weapons Thailand already uses with its F-16. fleet.

The Royal Thai Air Force (RTAF) will present the Thai government with a proposal to purchase 12 fighter jets to replace the ageing F16 jets. The Royal Thai Air Force will present a white paper next month outlining its strategies for the next ten years and explaining why it needs to procure 12 new fighter jets, the RTAF Commander-in-Chief ACM Phanpakdee Pattanakul said Tuesday.

Pattanakul stated that the white paper will lay out the RTAF’s strategies for development and modernisation over the next decade and it would be made public on February 29.

The procurement of a new fighter jet fleet will begin in fiscal 2025, and will consist of either F-16 aircraft from the Lockheed Martin or Gripen jets from Saab AB.

https://www.turdef.com/article/thailand ... ghter-jets

I presume that the choice would need to be made between F-16 and Gripen E rather than between F-16 and Gripen.

According to my sources, they are leaning French now! Probably means Rafales! Standardization and easing the logistics is clearly not an issue!

They are happy with the Saab product in general though the buzz is the local Saab reps have rubbed Authorities the wrong way more than once! I wonder what the story is there? Sounds juicy!

Second hand Rafales will always be a front runner in a competition like this.

France wants to protect its aerospace industry and has an excellent long term strategy with Rafale production.
If France does not get an export order for brand new Rafales then France accepts the aircraft themselves and older Rafales then get sold on the export market at a very attractive price.

France doesn't have to perform costly avionic upgrades to as many older Rafales. French pilots can effortless transition to the newer Rafales and the fleet is always kept up to date.

From a cost perspective ill throw out some random estimates:
A brand new Rafale is $100 million.
A 15 year old Rafale with 50% life left is $50 million.
Upgrading the old Rafale to the latest spec is $25 million.

France could fully upgrade the old Rafale and spend $25 million. France could sell the old Rafale for $50 million and buy a new one for $100 million so they have spent $50 million. The new aircraft might cost twice as much but it has a longer fatigue life so it is still a very cost effective option.

I expect France to continue Rafale production at around a dozen aircraft per year for another decade. While brand new F-35 and KF-21 might make it very hard for France to sell brand new Rafale I expect the used Rafales to have much more success as they will hit a much lower price point. France will then keep accepting new Rafale.

I do not see Eurofighter operators doing the same strategy. Buying Tranche 4 aircraft that arent really needed to replace Tranche 2 aircraft that can then be sold on the used market. Having multiple partners makes this unlikely.

Dassault is currently producing two aircraft a month. It will take a year for Dassault and its supply chain to reach three Rafale a month.

jouy31 wrote:

Dassault is currently producing two aircraft a month. It will take a year for Dassault and its supply chain to reach three Rafale a month.

With the existing assembly lines.

jouy31 wrote:

Dassault is currently producing two aircraft a month. It will take a year for Dassault and its supply chain to reach three Rafale a month.

Are they going to 3 per month? has that been announced?

It seems they should unless they want to discourage future sales due to inability to deliver in a reasonable time frame.

Thailand seems a little bit of a political outlier, they were considered a major non nato ally by the Bush administration but they do seem to be cozying up to China as of late.
Their Falcon strike exercises have allowed China to examine the Gripen C/D personally, this has many repercussions as Sweden is nearing it's ascension into NATO, the Gripen will soon be one of NATO's front line fighters. China will surely have no problem sharing this information with Russia. Just imagine if Thailand gets the Rafale or worse the F-35

JuggernautAlpha wrote:

Thailand seems a little bit of a political outlier, they were considered a major non nato ally by the Bush administration but they do seem to be cozying up to China as of late.
Their Falcon strike exercises have allowed China to examine the Gripen C/D personally, this has many repercussions as Sweden is nearing it's ascension into NATO, the Gripen will soon be one of NATO's front line fighters. China will surely have no problem sharing this information with Russia. Just imagine if Thailand gets the Rafale or worse the F-35

Is Thailand responsible for preventing anyone except SAAB-approved personnel examining the Gripen?

Word on the street is that they are exploring the option of 2nd hand Rafales - perhaps to test out the waters cheaply.

Who would be selling off 2nd hand Rafales right now?

"Cosying up to china" does not mean allying with them. That simply wont happen with Thailand. Countries in the region have to play a delicate balancing act with China but Thai Govt are good at playing the delicate balancing game.

Thailand will remain a US ally for decades.

BawliBooch wrote:

Word on the street is that they are exploring the option of 2nd hand Rafales - perhaps to test out the waters cheaply.

Who would be selling off 2nd hand Rafales right now?

I don't remember where I read it but someone claimed that France was interested in selling French air force Rafales and replacing them with new Rafales. Along these lines:

- sell a used air force F3 for, say, $50 million
- buy a new replacement F4 for, say, $120 million
- French air force only needs to find $70 million to get a new F4 Rafale + Dassault gets a new customer.

Dassault has some great examples with Croatia and Greece for quick in-service introduction of used Rafale. Only 1-2 years needed between order and delivery.
But I found nothing in the press about thai interest for the Rafale, not even on some enthusiastics french websites...

LaunchDetected wrote:

Dassault has some great examples with Croatia and Greece for quick in-service introduction of used Rafale. Only 1-2 years needed between order and delivery.
But I found nothing in the press about thai interest for the Rafale, not even on some enthusiastics french websites...

A well-trained journalist knows how to look at the right sources and cultivate relationships before infiltrating interest groups to write her story! Only Amateurs depend on ethusiast websites and forums!

Snooping and ferreting out information should be recognised as an art-form!