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firemansparky
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Chile purchases 3 E-3Ds

Fri Jan 21, 2022 2:05 pm

Chile has purchased 3 retired E-3Ds from the UK.

Source: https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/4 ... MbyQRy4tn8
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Chile purchases 3 E-3Ds

Fri Jan 21, 2022 2:59 pm

quite an expansion from the current fleet of one.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Chile purchases 3 E-3Ds

Fri Jan 21, 2022 3:09 pm

Dutchy wrote:
quite an expansion from the current fleet of one.


I was wondering why rhey needed the AWAC, but considering it can be used for sea surveillance as well, then it makes lots of sense.

With their long coast line, one seems a little overstretched.

bt
 
wingman
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Re: Chile purchases 3 E-3Ds

Fri Jan 21, 2022 4:50 pm

Someone's eating all their fish. And who knows what kind of shenanigans go on in their slice of Antarctica. It's shocking they only had a fleet of one to begin with, even four doesn't really cut it given the coverage requirements. A larger fleet of smaller biz jet platforms might be more cost effective..??
 
texl1649
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Re: Chile purchases 3 E-3Ds

Fri Jan 21, 2022 5:07 pm

wingman wrote:
Someone's eating all their fish. And who knows what kind of shenanigans go on in their slice of Antarctica. It's shocking they only had a fleet of one to begin with, even four doesn't really cut it given the coverage requirements. A larger fleet of smaller biz jet platforms might be more cost effective..??


For endurance, the E-2 can’t be beat in the role (I’m gonna just assume they don’t do/won’t refueling), and they probably got a really good ‘deal’ from the brits (as the USMC did for ‘Fat Albert.’). The Chinese won’t care if they are caught, though, on the fishing/illegal activities. This is a space so large however that it won’t be sufficiently monitored probably unless/until it is affordable for them to do it from space.
 
Newark727
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Re: Chile purchases 3 E-3Ds

Fri Jan 21, 2022 5:11 pm

texl1649 wrote:
wingman wrote:
Someone's eating all their fish. And who knows what kind of shenanigans go on in their slice of Antarctica. It's shocking they only had a fleet of one to begin with, even four doesn't really cut it given the coverage requirements. A larger fleet of smaller biz jet platforms might be more cost effective..??


For endurance, the E-2 can’t be beat in the role (I’m gonna just assume they don’t do/won’t refueling), and they probably got a really good ‘deal’ from the brits (as the USMC did for ‘Fat Albert.’). The Chinese won’t care if they are caught, though, on the fishing/illegal activities. This is a space so large however that it won’t be sufficiently monitored probably unless/until it is affordable for them to do it from space.


Chile used to have a small number of ex-USAF KC-135Es. Not sure if they still do though.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Chile purchases 3 E-3Ds

Fri Jan 21, 2022 6:13 pm

wingman wrote:
Someone's eating all their fish. And who knows what kind of shenanigans go on in their slice of Antarctica. It's shocking they only had a fleet of one to begin with, even four doesn't really cut it given the coverage requirements. A larger fleet of smaller biz jet platforms might be more cost effective..??


More planes does not necessarily help. You need more boats to support.

From what I read, because of good relations between Chile and the UK dating back to the Falkland conflict, Chile was able to get a few ex-UK assets.

They probably will get these frame for cheap or at least reasonable prices. After all, keeping them flying will be an expensive endeavor anyway.

by
 
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ssteve
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Re: Chile purchases 3 E-3Ds

Fri Jan 21, 2022 8:01 pm

Newark727 wrote:
texl1649 wrote:
wingman wrote:
Someone's eating all their fish. And who knows what kind of shenanigans go on in their slice of Antarctica. It's shocking they only had a fleet of one to begin with, even four doesn't really cut it given the coverage requirements. A larger fleet of smaller biz jet platforms might be more cost effective..??


For endurance, the E-2 can’t be beat in the role (I’m gonna just assume they don’t do/won’t refueling), and they probably got a really good ‘deal’ from the brits (as the USMC did for ‘Fat Albert.’). The Chinese won’t care if they are caught, though, on the fishing/illegal activities. This is a space so large however that it won’t be sufficiently monitored probably unless/until it is affordable for them to do it from space.


Chile used to have a small number of ex-USAF KC-135Es. Not sure if they still do though.


They were acquired ~11 years ago, so probably. viewtopic.php?t=1022973
 
johns624
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Re: Chile purchases 3 E-3Ds

Fri Jan 21, 2022 8:09 pm

Chile gets quite a bit of used equipment from the UK. They also have one Type 22 and three Type 23 frigates. Their navy is right up there with Brazil for best navy south of the Rio Grande.
 
FlapOperator
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Re: Chile purchases 3 E-3Ds

Fri Jan 21, 2022 8:25 pm

Those are a good buy, especially with the Chinese fishing fleets treating South American EEZs like a buffet.
 
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kitplane01
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Re: Chile purchases 3 E-3Ds

Sat Jan 22, 2022 1:12 am

bikerthai wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
quite an expansion from the current fleet of one.


I was wondering why rhey needed the AWAC, but considering it can be used for sea surveillance as well, then it makes lots of sense.

With their long coast line, one seems a little overstretched.

bt


If you want to do sea surveillance, of a fishing fleet, using an E-3 is beyond wasteful. Even if the plane is free, the operating costs must be huge. The USAF, which has one hopes lower costs due to large fleet size, charges $19000/hour. Use an ATR-72 or a CN-235 equipped for the maritime patrol. Lots of nations operating aircraft like this for a reason.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Chile purchases 3 E-3Ds

Sat Jan 22, 2022 1:22 am

kitplane01 wrote:
If you want to do sea surveillance, of a fishing fleet, using an E-3 is beyond wasteful. Even if the plane is free, the operating costs must be huge. The USAF, which has one hopes lower costs due to large fleet size, charges $19000/hour.


1) Not wasteful if it's dual purpose.

2) Get rid of a bunch of ancillary equipment and just stick with the radar, you can probably drop the operating cost way bellow the USAF.

3) What ever the cost, my bet is they feel it is more cost effective than their current one of a kind frame and system which is much older, thus probably much more expensive to operate.

And agreed that this is overkill for strictly maritime patrol. But is probably good as a top level command center to coordinate smaller crafts and an ideal mobile command /communication/air traffic center during times of natural disaster. Lots of earth quake in Chile.

bt
 
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kitplane01
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Re: Chile purchases 3 E-3Ds

Sat Jan 22, 2022 1:28 am

bikerthai wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:
If you want to do sea surveillance, of a fishing fleet, using an E-3 is beyond wasteful. Even if the plane is free, the operating costs must be huge. The USAF, which has one hopes lower costs due to large fleet size, charges $19000/hour.


1) Not wasteful if it's dual purpose.

2) Get rid of a bunch of ancillary equipment and just stick with the radar, you can probably drop the operating cost way bellow the USAF.

3) What ever the cost, my bet is they feel it is more cost effective than their current one of a kind frame and system which is much older, thus probably much more expensive to operate.

bt


If it's dual purpose that would help a lot. But I wouldn't waste a bunch of hours at $18000/hour looking for fishing boats.

What equipment would you get rid of that saves money? I would think the airframe and the radar were the cost drivers.

I note the UK (with a 10x defense budget) couldn't afford to operate them. Does Chile have history of vanity projects?
 
johns624
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Re: Chile purchases 3 E-3Ds

Sat Jan 22, 2022 2:32 am

kitplane01 wrote:

Does Chile have history of vanity projects?
No.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Chile purchases 3 E-3Ds

Sat Jan 22, 2022 3:14 am

kitplane01 wrote:
What equipment would you get rid of that saves money? I would think the airframe and the radar were the cost drivers.


I'd keep the Radar and Com system. Drop EWSP and ESM and their associated crew.

The turbofan is also less maintenance than the turbojet of their current frame and those of the US.

Again you are talking about getting bran new capability. I'm saying they are just replacing their current capability with a slightly more expensive but more capable system.

Their economy has grown over the last few decades. They probably feel they can afford the upgrade.

bt
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Chile purchases 3 E-3Ds

Sat Jan 22, 2022 3:16 am

kitplane01 wrote:
the UK (with a 10x defense budget) couldn't afford to operate them.


They also have carrier along with a larger navy. And decided to pay for brand new E-7 and P-8s.

bt
 
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kitplane01
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Re: Chile purchases 3 E-3Ds

Sat Jan 22, 2022 4:06 am

bikerthai wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:
What equipment would you get rid of that saves money? I would think the airframe and the radar were the cost drivers.


I'd keep the Radar and Com system. Drop EWSP and ESM and their associated crew.



I'd be very surprised if the EWSP and ESM was a significant fraction of the upkeep cost.
 
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DohwanKim747
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Re: Chile purchases 3 E-3Ds

Sat Jan 22, 2022 4:35 am

Newark727 wrote:
texl1649 wrote:
wingman wrote:
Someone's eating all their fish. And who knows what kind of shenanigans go on in their slice of Antarctica. It's shocking they only had a fleet of one to begin with, even four doesn't really cut it given the coverage requirements. A larger fleet of smaller biz jet platforms might be more cost effective..??


For endurance, the E-2 can’t be beat in the role (I’m gonna just assume they don’t do/won’t refueling), and they probably got a really good ‘deal’ from the brits (as the USMC did for ‘Fat Albert.’). The Chinese won’t care if they are caught, though, on the fishing/illegal activities. This is a space so large however that it won’t be sufficiently monitored probably unless/until it is affordable for them to do it from space.


Chile used to have a small number of ex-USAF KC-135Es. Not sure if they still do though.


All of Chile's 135s are active. They'll be able to use them to refuel the E-3s via the probe since they can attach a hose and drogue to the boom (shown here: https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/8837830).
 
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DohwanKim747
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Re: Chile purchases 3 E-3Ds

Sat Jan 22, 2022 4:40 am

kitplane01 wrote:
bikerthai wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
quite an expansion from the current fleet of one.


I was wondering why rhey needed the AWAC, but considering it can be used for sea surveillance as well, then it makes lots of sense.

With their long coast line, one seems a little overstretched.

bt


If you want to do sea surveillance, of a fishing fleet, using an E-3 is beyond wasteful. Even if the plane is free, the operating costs must be huge. The USAF, which has one hopes lower costs due to large fleet size, charges $19000/hour. Use an ATR-72 or a CN-235 equipped for the maritime patrol. Lots of nations operating aircraft like this for a reason.


Chile already has C295 MPAs. However, their doctrine also sees AEW&C capablities as vital to maintaining a small but fairly potent air defense. If this capablity wasn't necessary to them, they'd never have converted a 707 into the Condor configuration in the first place, let alone find a replacement for it. Chile isn't known for going out of its way to haphazardly make wasteful defense purchases.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Chile purchases 3 E-3Ds

Sat Jan 22, 2022 4:44 am

kitplane01 wrote:
I'd be very surprised if the EWSP and ESM was a significant fraction of the upkeep cost.


ESM and EWSP by their nature are expensive. The LRU can be in the 10s of thousands each, more if they are obsolete and spare parts no longer built.

Same with their sensors.

New LRUs are not necessarily backward compatible to the old system.

Looking at Chile's current frame where you have several radars fixed mounted to provide 360 coverage and compare that to one rotating radar, I wonder which is more maintenance intensive.

bt
 
FlyingSicilian
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Re: Chile purchases 3 E-3Ds

Sat Jan 22, 2022 6:02 am

So 2 will go live and 1 is for spare parts. Will they retire the one IAI radar 707 they have?
 
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Re: Chile purchases 3 E-3Ds

Sat Jan 22, 2022 2:43 pm

DohwanKim747 wrote:
Newark727 wrote:
texl1649 wrote:

For endurance, the E-2 can’t be beat in the role (I’m gonna just assume they don’t do/won’t refueling), and they probably got a really good ‘deal’ from the brits (as the USMC did for ‘Fat Albert.’). The Chinese won’t care if they are caught, though, on the fishing/illegal activities. This is a space so large however that it won’t be sufficiently monitored probably unless/until it is affordable for them to do it from space.


Chile used to have a small number of ex-USAF KC-135Es. Not sure if they still do though.


All of Chile's 135s are active. They'll be able to use them to refuel the E-3s via the probe since they can attach a hose and drogue to the boom (shown here: https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/8837830).


Oh, I’ll bet that will be fun refueling off the pony drogue! It wasn’t easy in F-100. Not to mention the flow rate is barely more than the burn.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Chile purchases 3 E-3Ds

Sat Jan 22, 2022 2:55 pm

They could remove the boom and refuel using their KC-135s.

The turbo fans do help with the gas burn.

bt
 
Newark727
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Re: Chile purchases 3 E-3Ds

Sat Jan 22, 2022 3:45 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Oh, I’ll bet that will be fun refueling off the pony drogue! It wasn’t easy in F-100. Not to mention the flow rate is barely more than the burn.


Curious if you ever refueled off a KC-97?
 
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LyleLanley
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Re: Chile purchases 3 E-3Ds

Sat Jan 22, 2022 3:47 pm

DohwanKim747 wrote:
All of Chile's 135s are active. They'll be able to use them to refuel the E-3s via the probe since they can attach a hose and drogue to the boom (shown here: https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/8837830).


Why would they do that? There’s a receptacle on top, next to the probe.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Chile purchases 3 E-3Ds

Sat Jan 22, 2022 4:09 pm

Newark727 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Oh, I’ll bet that will be fun refueling off the pony drogue! It wasn’t easy in F-100. Not to mention the flow rate is barely more than the burn.


Curious if you ever refueled off a KC-97?


No, very fortunate to have missed that! You’re about to stall, the KC-97 is tobogganing for all its worth. Respect for the B-47 dudes!

Last KC-97 units were converting to -135s when I was in RTU.
 
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kitplane01
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Re: Chile purchases 3 E-3Ds

Sun Jan 23, 2022 2:35 am

DohwanKim747 wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:
bikerthai wrote:

I was wondering why rhey needed the AWAC, but considering it can be used for sea surveillance as well, then it makes lots of sense.

With their long coast line, one seems a little overstretched.

bt


If you want to do sea surveillance, of a fishing fleet, using an E-3 is beyond wasteful. Even if the plane is free, the operating costs must be huge. The USAF, which has one hopes lower costs due to large fleet size, charges $19000/hour. Use an ATR-72 or a CN-235 equipped for the maritime patrol. Lots of nations operating aircraft like this for a reason.


Chile already has C295 MPAs. However, their doctrine also sees AEW&C capablities as vital to maintaining a small but fairly potent air defense. If this capablity wasn't necessary to them, they'd never have converted a 707 into the Condor configuration in the first place, let alone find a replacement for it. Chile isn't known for going out of its way to haphazardly make wasteful defense purchases.


That's all fine. I'm not arguing against AEW. I'm arguing that $18000/hour is not the right price to pay to find fishing boats. Especially if you already have C295MPAs.
 
johns624
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Re: Chile purchases 3 E-3Ds

Sun Jan 23, 2022 3:19 am

kitplane01 wrote:
DohwanKim747 wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:

If you want to do sea surveillance, of a fishing fleet, using an E-3 is beyond wasteful. Even if the plane is free, the operating costs must be huge. The USAF, which has one hopes lower costs due to large fleet size, charges $19000/hour. Use an ATR-72 or a CN-235 equipped for the maritime patrol. Lots of nations operating aircraft like this for a reason.


Chile already has C295 MPAs. However, their doctrine also sees AEW&C capablities as vital to maintaining a small but fairly potent air defense. If this capablity wasn't necessary to them, they'd never have converted a 707 into the Condor configuration in the first place, let alone find a replacement for it. Chile isn't known for going out of its way to haphazardly make wasteful defense purchases.


That's all fine. I'm not arguing against AEW. I'm arguing that $18000/hour is not the right price to pay to find fishing boats. Especially if you already have C295MPAs.
The Chileans beg to disagree. They may only find fishing boats today but it's good practice for what they may be needed for in the future. With the long lead times in weapons procurement, if you need something today, you should've ordered it 5-10 years ago.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Chile purchases 3 E-3Ds

Sun Jan 23, 2022 5:57 am

kitplane01 wrote:
I'm arguing that $18000/hour is not the right price


This argument reminded me of the USAF F-35 flight hours cost vs the propose Swiss F-35 flight hours cost.

You may be protecting unrealistic costs on a different operating structure.

Put it another way, how do you know if the cost of operating these two E-3 with 4 Radars (two search and two weather) plus one set for spares will be more expensive than their current platform with 6 radars and my guess - no spares?

bt
 
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kitplane01
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Re: Chile purchases 3 E-3Ds

Sun Jan 23, 2022 9:06 am

bikerthai wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:
I'm arguing that $18000/hour is not the right price


This argument reminded me of the USAF F-35 flight hours cost vs the propose Swiss F-35 flight hours cost.

You may be protecting unrealistic costs on a different operating structure.

Put it another way, how do you know if the cost of operating these two E-3 with 4 Radars (two search and two weather) plus one set for spares will be more expensive than their current platform with 6 radars and my guess - no spares?

bt


OMG I obviously have no idea what it costs to to run some weird Israeli plane/radar combination of which only three exist in the whole world. But I'm pretty sure that running a C295 MPA costs much less than running an old E-3. Even if the cost structure is Chilean and not American.
 
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kitplane01
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Re: Chile purchases 3 E-3Ds

Sun Jan 23, 2022 9:08 am

johns624 wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:
DohwanKim747 wrote:

Chile already has C295 MPAs. However, their doctrine also sees AEW&C capablities as vital to maintaining a small but fairly potent air defense. If this capablity wasn't necessary to them, they'd never have converted a 707 into the Condor configuration in the first place, let alone find a replacement for it. Chile isn't known for going out of its way to haphazardly make wasteful defense purchases.


That's all fine. I'm not arguing against AEW. I'm arguing that $18000/hour is not the right price to pay to find fishing boats. Especially if you already have C295MPAs.
The Chileans beg to disagree. They may only find fishing boats today but it's good practice for what they may be needed for in the future. With the long lead times in weapons procurement, if you need something today, you should've ordered it 5-10 years ago.


If you say so.

I would have thought that the reason one bought an E-3 was high end airborne command and control, and that looking for fishing boats didn't really help the people in the back train for large-group fighter combat control.

And if you can find some quote where the Chileans "beg to disagree" by saying one main use of these huge new airplanes was fishing boat hunting, I'd like to read it. Because I would understand that "Chile is going to operate two E-3s" to mean that Chile wants air defense command-and-control, and not a supplement to their C-295 MPA fleet.
 
johns624
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Re: Chile purchases 3 E-3Ds

Sun Jan 23, 2022 1:24 pm

kitplane01 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:

That's all fine. I'm not arguing against AEW. I'm arguing that $18000/hour is not the right price to pay to find fishing boats. Especially if you already have C295MPAs.
The Chileans beg to disagree. They may only find fishing boats today but it's good practice for what they may be needed for in the future. With the long lead times in weapons procurement, if you need something today, you should've ordered it 5-10 years ago.


If you say so.

I would have thought that the reason one bought an E-3 was high end airborne command and control, and that looking for fishing boats didn't really help the people in the back train for large-group fighter combat control.

And if you can find some quote where the Chileans "beg to disagree" by saying one main use of these huge new airplanes was fishing boat hunting, I'd like to read it. Because I would understand that "Chile is going to operate two E-3s" to mean that Chile wants air defense command-and-control, and not a supplement to their C-295 MPA fleet.
Chile does not make extravagant purchases. If they bought them, they must have a reason. You might want to read up on the ABC battleship games. Chile and Argentina almost came to blows before the Falklands War. South America isn't one, big, happy family. While nothing may kick off immediately, there is always something simmering right beneath the surface. The US and Chile have joint exercises, maybe they bought them to supplement other countries coverage.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Chile purchases 3 E-3Ds

Sun Jan 23, 2022 1:31 pm

kitplane01 wrote:
But I'm pretty sure that running a C295 MPA costs much less than running an old E-3. E


Ah, we were arguing from different perspective.

I do not disagree with the statement above.

Of course, what is the up front cost of those C295? We will have to see what is the upfront cost of acquiring these E-3

As for marine patrol, I was saying it is only a secondary benefit. Primary mission is still air patrol. Third important mission, specially for a country sitting on the ring of fire, is command and control after a natural disaster destroy local communication infrastructure.

bt
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Chile purchases 3 E-3Ds

Sun Jan 23, 2022 1:40 pm

johns624 wrote:
You might want to read up on the ABC battleship games. Chile and Argentina almost came to blows before the Falklands War.


Ah, that make sense on why Chile was helping the UK during that conflict which led to lots of UK equipment transfered to Chile afterward to which this transaction is the latest development.

As for potential future conflict. With both Argentina and Chile having since become democracies, such conflict is less likely.

However the drug war is not going away, so such assets is more than relevant for a country like Chile. Who by the way can afford it now with increasing trade with the US. Just had some Chilean tilapia last night and I see produce from Chile at my local Costco more and more.

Heck, it would not surprise me if the US provide some funds to operate those E-3 As part of its drug interdiction campaign. God knows we spend enough money on drug interdiction.
bt
 
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kitplane01
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Re: Chile purchases 3 E-3Ds

Mon Jan 24, 2022 4:57 am

johns624 wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
The Chileans beg to disagree. They may only find fishing boats today but it's good practice for what they may be needed for in the future. With the long lead times in weapons procurement, if you need something today, you should've ordered it 5-10 years ago.


If you say so.

I would have thought that the reason one bought an E-3 was high end airborne command and control, and that looking for fishing boats didn't really help the people in the back train for large-group fighter combat control.

And if you can find some quote where the Chileans "beg to disagree" by saying one main use of these huge new airplanes was fishing boat hunting, I'd like to read it. Because I would understand that "Chile is going to operate two E-3s" to mean that Chile wants air defense command-and-control, and not a supplement to their C-295 MPA fleet.
Chile does not make extravagant purchases. If they bought them, they must have a reason. You might want to read up on the ABC battleship games. Chile and Argentina almost came to blows before the Falklands War. South America isn't one, big, happy family. While nothing may kick off immediately, there is always something simmering right beneath the surface. The US and Chile have joint exercises, maybe they bought them to supplement other countries coverage.


I'm so aware of the ABC battleship contest. I know that the people who did this are the great-great-grandparents of the people who are alive now.

If you want to argue there is a brewing South American arms race ... more recent data would be better. Brazil is buying new fighters. Argentina would like to buy new fighters but is having real problems. The last war involving Chile was during the reign of Queen Victoria.
 
johns624
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Re: Chile purchases 3 E-3Ds

Mon Jan 24, 2022 3:54 pm

kitplane01 wrote:

The last war involving Chile was during the reign of Queen Victoria.
At least get your facts straight. They almost came to blows in 1978, which is why Chile helped the UK in the Falklands. It wasn't settled until 1984...well within my adulthood.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beagle_co ... 0in%201978.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Chile purchases 3 E-3Ds

Mon Jan 24, 2022 4:07 pm

That was not a war.

Now, the Football War could be considered as such with significant casualties.

bt
 
johns624
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Re: Chile purchases 3 E-3Ds

Mon Jan 24, 2022 4:16 pm

bikerthai wrote:
That was not a war.

Now, the Football War could be considered as such with significant casualties.

bt
It was a cold war...especially considering where it was happening!
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Chile purchases 3 E-3Ds

Mon Jan 24, 2022 4:36 pm

johns624 wrote:
was a cold war...


True to that.

bt
 
FlapOperator
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Re: Chile purchases 3 E-3Ds

Mon Jan 24, 2022 5:04 pm

kitplane01 wrote:

That's all fine. I'm not arguing against AEW. I'm arguing that $18000/hour is not the right price to pay to find fishing boats. Especially if you already have C295MPAs.


So the surface search capability of a E-3D and a C295MPA is identical, along with the C2 to assist other forces, along with the other capabilities to find-decriminate-identify-track in congested water and air space?

Because I don't believe you.

Starting with radar search volumetrics/processing, the reality of radar sensor height on search volumes, and some other factors, for starters.
 
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kitplane01
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Re: Chile purchases 3 E-3Ds

Mon Jan 24, 2022 6:05 pm

johns624 wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:

The last war involving Chile was during the reign of Queen Victoria.
At least get your facts straight. They almost came to blows in 1978, which is why Chile helped the UK in the Falklands. It wasn't settled until 1984...well within my adulthood.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beagle_co ... 0in%201978.


At least get your facts straight. "They almost came to blows" is not a war. The last war was during the reign of Queen Victoria.
Last edited by kitplane01 on Mon Jan 24, 2022 6:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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kitplane01
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Re: Chile purchases 3 E-3Ds

Mon Jan 24, 2022 6:15 pm

FlapOperator wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:

That's all fine. I'm not arguing against AEW. I'm arguing that $18000/hour is not the right price to pay to find fishing boats. Especially if you already have C295MPAs.


So the surface search capability of a E-3D and a C295MPA is identical, along with the C2 to assist other forces, along with the other capabilities to find-decriminate-identify-track in congested water and air space?

Because I don't believe you.

Starting with radar search volumetrics/processing, the reality of radar sensor height on search volumes, and some other factors, for starters.


OMG! This is so simple. If you want to search for bad fishing boats, and do so economically, use a marine-patrol-aircraft which Chile already has. Both should be able to detect any ship to the radar radar horizon, which at 10,000m is about 200nm. And if the radar on the C295 is less powerful, the c295 costs SO MUCH LESS to operate that it's still a better deal.

Or .... You win. The E-3 is clearly the most economical way of finding fishing boats .. in fact that's it main use. I don't even know why they have all those fighter controllers in the back, and the complicated anti-jamming hardware. The height finders on the E-3 you mentioned .. totally useful for fishing boat finding! The detect-others-emissions stuff ..that's also for finding fishing boats. Put some sonobuoys on an E-3 and you'd have the perfect airplane!

Really, lets move on. Get your last words, and then we can both be done.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Chile purchases 3 E-3Ds

Mon Jan 24, 2022 6:19 pm

Stop arguing over technicalities.

Brink of war is good enough reason for military procurement.

Practically, I concur with Kitplane01 that an AWAC may be a little over the top for a country like Chile with no obvious aggressive neighbor.

However, they seemed to want or believe they need AWAC capabilities and if the E-3 is at a right price to replace their current platform, the why not? Specially if it can be used as a air traffic command center after a natural disaster in light of recent events in the South Pacific.

I mean even if they park 2 frames and operate only one E-3, something tells me the operating cost would be less than their current platform.

bt
 
FlapOperator
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Re: Chile purchases 3 E-3Ds

Mon Jan 24, 2022 6:30 pm

kitplane01 wrote:

OMG! This is so simple. If you want to search for bad fishing boats, and do so economically, use a marine-patrol-aircraft which Chile already has. Both should be able to detect any ship to the radar radar horizon, which at 10,000m is about 200nm. And if the radar on the C295 is less powerful, the c295 costs SO MUCH LESS to operate that it's still a better deal.

Or .... You win. The E-3 is clearly the most economical way of finding fishing boats .. in fact that's it main use. I don't even know why they have all those fighter controllers in the back, and the complicated anti-jamming hardware. The height finders on the E-3 you mentioned .. totally useful for fishing boat finding! The detect-others-emissions stuff ..that's also for finding fishing boats. Put some sonobuoys on an E-3 and you'd have the perfect airplane!

Really, lets move on. Get your last words, and then we can both be done.


Why so angry?
 
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bikerthai
Posts: 5350
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Re: Chile purchases 3 E-3Ds

Mon Jan 24, 2022 6:45 pm

kitplane01 wrote:
Put some sonobuoys on an E-3 and you'd have the perfect airplane!


Chile is not on the list of potential P-8A customer. :bigthumbsup:
 
FlapOperator
Posts: 858
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2021 4:07 pm

Re: Chile purchases 3 E-3Ds

Mon Jan 24, 2022 6:55 pm

bikerthai wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:
Put some sonobuoys on an E-3 and you'd have the perfect airplane!


Chile is not on the list of potential P-8A customer. :bigthumbsup:


Too bad...the Boeing folks should have rushed down there with the demo bird!

"Now, I've heard you're in the market..."
 
johns624
Posts: 5158
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: Chile purchases 3 E-3Ds

Mon Jan 24, 2022 7:13 pm

kitplane01 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:

The last war involving Chile was during the reign of Queen Victoria.
At least get your facts straight. They almost came to blows in 1978, which is why Chile helped the UK in the Falklands. It wasn't settled until 1984...well within my adulthood.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beagle_co ... 0in%201978.


At least get your facts straight. "They almost came to blows" is not a war. The last war was during the reign of Queen Victoria.
You need the same military for an adversarial confrontation as you do for actual armed combat. No different than what's been going on in Korea for the past 65 years.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Chile purchases 3 E-3Ds

Mon Jan 24, 2022 7:19 pm

FlapOperator wrote:
Too bad...the Boeing folks should have rushed down there with the demo bird!


The Boeing folks are pleased with this aquision I'm sure. AWACs support is one of there bread and butter and keeping these birds flying will make them more money than having them sit in some museum or salvage yard.

bt
 
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kitplane01
Posts: 2404
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2016 5:58 am

Re: Chile purchases 3 E-3Ds

Mon Jan 24, 2022 8:22 pm

FlapOperator wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:

OMG! This is so simple. If you want to search for bad fishing boats, and do so economically, use a marine-patrol-aircraft which Chile already has. Both should be able to detect any ship to the radar radar horizon, which at 10,000m is about 200nm. And if the radar on the C295 is less powerful, the c295 costs SO MUCH LESS to operate that it's still a better deal.

Or .... You win. The E-3 is clearly the most economical way of finding fishing boats .. in fact that's it main use. I don't even know why they have all those fighter controllers in the back, and the complicated anti-jamming hardware. The height finders on the E-3 you mentioned .. totally useful for fishing boat finding! The detect-others-emissions stuff ..that's also for finding fishing boats. Put some sonobuoys on an E-3 and you'd have the perfect airplane!

Really, lets move on. Get your last words, and then we can both be done.


Why so angry?


Because "using cheap that you already have MPAs to do maritime patrol because it's cheaper to operate than the most expensive radar plane on the whole planet" seems obvious. But anger bad ... sorry.
 
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LyleLanley
Posts: 635
Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2019 9:33 pm

Re: Chile purchases 3 E-3Ds

Mon Jan 24, 2022 11:41 pm

Who would’ve thought (3 of) the 7 dwarves would be as divisive to milav as trump is to nonav?

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