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Spacepope
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Mon Mar 21, 2022 12:45 am

Oykie wrote:
petertenthije wrote:
Oykie wrote:
Russia claims to have used hypersonic missile one more time. I’m curious why No western intelligence is either confirming or denying it yet.


https://edition.cnn.com/europe/live-new ... 7db16cac80

US officials confirmed to CNN that Russia launched hypersonic missiles against Ukraine last week, the first known use of such missiles in combat. The US was able to track the launches in real time, the sources said.


It’s good to know that they could track it in real time. I hope the intel will make it possible to make a counter system to protect against hypersonic missiles.


The boys and girls at NORAD must be drooling over all the combat sigint the Russians are leaking all over this conflict.
 
LightningZ71
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Mon Mar 21, 2022 2:18 am

I guess we need to drag out some "Sprint" interceptors again...

Yeah, I know they wouldn't work and were recycled long ago...
 
boacvc10
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Mon Mar 21, 2022 3:55 am

@jayinkitsap regarding your suggestion about lasers ...

Are you confident (and knowledgeable) about the efficiency of laser energy being beamed at targets moving at hypersonic velocities which has a thin layer of plasma as it passes through air? Plasma is almost like a high energy boundary and has very energetic particles confined by self produced EM fields. They also do reflect RF so make a very very effective reflector (good for tracking). But the plasma wake makes targeting lasers from the front and sides probably a no-go. Earlier studies of laser/ directed energy weapons focused on thin skins of ballistic missiles at boost phase as they reached high altitudes. What about objects moving in dense atmosphere horizontally creating plasma wake? Also RF jamming doesn't help.. the plasma acts as a shield.

Somehow I think hypersonic pursuit interceptors (from the rear cone +/- 30 deg off trajectory) would be interesting to evaluate.

Haven't the Indians shown progress in HV missiles? Less than 7 tons, would easily and quickly fielded on mobile launchers for anti-hypersonic missile interception missions, from farms while camouflaged if needed.

It's "Made in India" with enough domestic content to be conflict free and export ready.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaurya_(missile). Maybe the Indians can supy to the US as US has a trade imbalance with India in the hundreds of billions due to IT outsourcing?
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Mon Mar 21, 2022 4:14 am

tomcat wrote:
Oykie wrote:
JayinKitsap wrote:

The problem with intercepting a hypersonic is the interceptor needs something like 120% of the missile speed to allow for closure. Even if the missile is coming toward the interceptor launch site a 3,000 mph missile will cover 50 miles in a minute. Basically the interceptor needs to get in front of the hypersonic with a debris cloud in a very short time frame.


So basically it is not possible to make a deterrence?


The Kinzhal is said to be a Mach 10 missile with a range of 2000 to 3000 km depending on the launcher. It is also said to perform evasive maneuvers at every stage of its flight. That makes it even more complex to get right in front of this missile.
It is air launched by Mig-31 and Tu-22M. So the best way to prevent being exposed to a Kinzgal shot is to destroy on the ground the fleets of Mig-31Ks and Tu-22Ms. That's potentially up to 190 aircraft according to Wikipedia. Second best thing is to intercept those aircraft before they launch the Kynzhal but that most probably means intercepting them over the Russian territory. I don't know if long range lasers could be an option to neutralize the Kinzhal in flight. An object flying at Mach10 must be pretty hot and given its ballistic trajectory, it's reaching a very high altitude making it visible to IR sensors from a long distance. Teasing it with some extra heat during flight in order to degrade its structural or its aerodynamic integrity could be sufficient to render it unstable meaning it would miss its target.

Here are a couple of articles about the lasers currently in development for the US Army:
https://breakingdefense.com/2019/08/newest-army-laser-could-kill-cruise-missiles/
https://www.thedefensepost.com/2021/10/26/us-army-laser-based-air-defense/


Lasers and other directed energy systems are likely the best way as the speed is many times the hypersonic, as light speed is nearly instataneous. At the hypersonic speed the surface gets red hot, few materials can sustain this, adding heat could cause failure. It would also tend to slide the missle off its path. Likely would also start a tumble, destroying the warhead.
 
boacvc10
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Mon Mar 21, 2022 4:40 am

JayinKitsap wrote:
Lasers and other directed energy systems are likely the best way as the speed is many times the hypersonic, as light speed is nearly instataneous. At the hypersonic speed the surface gets red hot, few materials can sustain this, adding heat could cause failure. It would also tend to slide the missle off its path. Likely would also start a tumble, destroying the warhead.


Lasers will have less efficiency through plasma wake amd the source will have to be huge power ...

Unless the laser is also airborne in closer proximity as a kill platform (thereby greatly increasing efficiency pf energy delivered to achieve the localized heating required.

Or, as I suggested smaller anti-HV interceptors.
 
boacvc10
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Mon Mar 21, 2022 4:58 am

JayinKitsap wrote:
Lasers and other directed energy systems are likely the best way as the speed is many times the hypersonic, as light speed is nearly instataneous. At the hypersonic speed the surface gets red hot, few materials can sustain this, adding heat could cause failure. It would also tend to slide the missle off its path. Likely would also start a tumble, destroying the warhead.


Lasers will have less efficiency through plasma wake and the source will have to be huge power ...

Unless the laser is also airborne in closer proximity as a kill platform (thereby greatly increasing efficiency pf energy delivered to achieve the localized heating required.

Or, as I suggested smaller anti-HV interceptors.
 
LightningZ71
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Mon Mar 21, 2022 2:24 pm

I suspect that the solution will be electromagnetically accelerated interceptors that are command guided. Think of a rail gun that can send a projectile against the incoming missile. The misdile maneuvers, so, for the few seconds its in the air, the projectile needs to be guided. It can't see bevause it has the same problem the hypersonic glide vehicle has, it can't see through the plasma of its own speed. It takes guidance from the firing system to its rear. It doesn't have to be at mach 10, just be quick enough to get to an intercept point in time. Given that its a solid object, the force of impact alone should be sufficient for a mission kill.

That would not be a cheap system.

As for the conflict, it feels like something has changed with respect to aviation. The last two days have involved very few intercepts.
 
ReverseFlow
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Mon Mar 21, 2022 2:33 pm

LightningZ71 wrote:
I suspect that the solution will be electromagnetically accelerated interceptors that are command guided. Think of a rail gun that can send a projectile against the incoming missile. The misdile maneuvers, so, for the few seconds its in the air, the projectile needs to be guided. It can't see bevause it has the same problem the hypersonic glide vehicle has, it can't see through the plasma of its own speed. It takes guidance from the firing system to its rear. It doesn't have to be at mach 10, just be quick enough to get to an intercept point in time. Given that its a solid object, the force of impact alone should be sufficient for a mission kill.

That would not be a cheap system.

As for the conflict, it feels like something has changed with respect to aviation. The last two days have involved very few intercepts.
Here's something that is being proposed for defence against hypersonic missiles.
Effectively a bit more high-tech flak.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/4 ... c-missiles
 
boacvc10
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Mon Mar 21, 2022 7:20 pm

LightningZ71 wrote:
I suspect that the solution will be electromagnetically accelerated interceptors that are command guided. Think of a rail gun that can send a projectile against the incoming missile. The misdile maneuvers, so, for the few seconds its in the air, the projectile needs to be guided. It can't see bevause it has the same problem the hypersonic glide vehicle has, it can't see through the plasma of its own speed. It takes guidance from the firing system to its rear. It doesn't have to be at mach 10, just be quick enough to get to an intercept point in time. Given that its a solid object, the force of impact alone should be sufficient for a mission kill.

That would not be a cheap system.


Thank you. I think we are headed there. A separate possibility I somehow had a discussion in a very open forum when I was presenting designs of a civil electric rocket systems for small spacecraft was to develop safeguards against accidental deorbiting from VLEO amd LEO (I did!) . Only years later did I realize who had guided me in that pathway and found there were other unrelated but dedicated thinkers that wanted a constellation of "__________ platforms" on station , on orbit to be used precisely in the manner I wasn't supposed to.

So, sample use case would be to wait for an intercept opportunity and then issue orders to the appropriate squadron of "_____ platforms" with upcoming velocity and trajectory coverage and then command an intentional intercept maneuver to terminal or close proxmity when something woudl be detonated. Of course nine years ago I guessed the thought was to intercept unwanted ballostic missiles, and probably not agile hypersonic missiles - so I think it was a creative exercise then. But the thought concept may have already been taken to orbit., who knows what could be with interceptors (projectiles) descending from orbtial speed.


I am not involved. All my civilian firmware had code to prevent that to the best of my ability.
 
Vintage
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Tue Mar 22, 2022 12:43 am

Defense against Hypersonic missiles has to be point defense, or at least done by a system that is not covering a large area, and this leads me to think that the later versions of the HAWK system would do the job just fine. If hypersonic missiles become a significant enough of a threat I don't see why a newer version of the HAWK couldn't be quickly and cheaply developed with an additional infrared seeker in the missile.

An intercepting missile doesn't need to go mach 10 to do the intercept; as long as it can get to the attacking missile before the attacker gets to the target it's a good intercept.

And if the old Marine Corps HAWKs are gathering dust in a warehouse, I think they should be sent to Ukraine. They would also work fine as point defense against cruise missiles. AFIK, HAWKs never miss and can't be jammed.
 
boacvc10
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Tue Mar 22, 2022 1:02 am

Vintage wrote:
An intercepting missile doesn't need to go mach 10 to do the intercept; as long as it can get to the attacking missile before the attacker gets to the target it's a good intercept.

And if the old Marine Corps HAWKs are gathering dust in a warehouse, I think they should be sent to Ukraine. They would also work fine as point defense against cruise missiles. AFIK, HAWKs never miss and can't be jammed.


Good points. But HAWK?

Are you referring to this current airborne USMC platform?

https://insidedefense.com/insider/marin ... capability
 
Vintage
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Tue Mar 22, 2022 1:04 am

boacvc10 wrote:
Are you referring to this current airborne USMC platform?

Nope.

I'm referring to the "Homing all the way killer".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIM-23_Hawk
 
prebennorholm
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Tue Mar 22, 2022 2:01 am

Being a Dane, having lived at multiple locations, but always near a military air base, I had in fact never seen a Lockheed P-3 Orion, except on pictures.

Until now. They are busy. Around the clock. They are not in our inventory. I haven't been able to see the nationality, but they can be from any NATO country such as Norway, Netherlands, USA or whatever.

A qualified guess: There are some shipping transports into the Baltic Sea to (guess) Poland which are taken care of in a previously unpresedented way.
 
Vintage
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Tue Mar 22, 2022 2:06 am

prebennorholm wrote:
A qualified guess: There are some shipping transports into the Baltic Sea to (guess) Poland which are taken care of in a previously unpresedented way.

There are exercises going on in the north right now.
https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/news ... dLocale=en

They might be participating in "Cold Response 2022".
 
prebennorholm
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Tue Mar 22, 2022 4:11 am

Vintage wrote:
There are exercises going on in the north right now.
https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/news ... dLocale=en

They might be participating in "Cold Response 2022".

That's way up north in Norway. There is no NATO exercise here.
 
Vintage
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Tue Mar 22, 2022 5:12 am

Northern Norway is easily within operational range of a P3 flying from Aalborg or several other Danish military airports. Their missions are typically 12 hours or more. Orions are sub chasers and the waters above Norway are a good hunting ground for Russian Subs.
I doubt they were escorting cargo ships.

https://thebarentsobserver.com/en/secur ... arine-show
 
ReverseFlow
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Tue Mar 22, 2022 6:01 am

prebennorholm wrote:
Being a Dane, having lived at multiple locations, but always near a military air base, I had in fact never seen a Lockheed P-3 Orion, except on pictures.

Until now. They are busy. Around the clock. They are not in our inventory. I haven't been able to see the nationality, but they can be from any NATO country such as Norway, Netherlands, USA or whatever.

A qualified guess: There are some shipping transports into the Baltic Sea to (guess) Poland which are taken care of in a previously unpresedented way.
From AdSB Echange and sometimes from FR there are German P3's flying over northern Germany and over to the Baltic near Kaliningrad.
I havecalso see them buzz Denmark on ADSB, too. So it might have been those.
 
mxaxai
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Tue Mar 22, 2022 11:41 am

prebennorholm wrote:
Being a Dane, having lived at multiple locations, but always near a military air base, I had in fact never seen a Lockheed P-3 Orion, except on pictures.

Until now. They are busy. Around the clock. They are not in our inventory. I haven't been able to see the nationality, but they can be from any NATO country such as Norway, Netherlands, USA or whatever.

A qualified guess: There are some shipping transports into the Baltic Sea to (guess) Poland which are taken care of in a previously unpresedented way.

Germany increased Baltic sea patrols with their single P-3C after the war started. Just to show presence and make sure that NATO knows who's there.
Not sure if any other NATO members are using them there currently, perhaps Norway. Netherlands retired theirs a few years ago.
 
petertenthije
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Tue Mar 22, 2022 3:00 pm

prebennorholm wrote:
Lockheed P-3 Orion ... they can be from any NATO country such as Norway, Netherlands, USA or whatever.

The Netherlands sold their eight to Germany in 2004.
In Europe the Orions where replaced by 2 mighty Dornier 228s. LOL
In the Dutch Carribean the Orions where outsourced to a private operator, currently I beliveve two DHC-8's.
 
Vintage
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Tue Mar 22, 2022 10:49 pm

If Putin really did send a hypersonic missile into Ukraine, it should be noted that this will give the west (the US) an opportunity to examine the materials it is made of, particularly the titanium alloy outer skin. Probably the kind of fuel it burns would also be of interest.
 
tomcat
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Tue Mar 22, 2022 11:25 pm

JayinKitsap wrote:
tomcat wrote:
Oykie wrote:

So basically it is not possible to make a deterrence?


The Kinzhal is said to be a Mach 10 missile with a range of 2000 to 3000 km depending on the launcher. It is also said to perform evasive maneuvers at every stage of its flight. That makes it even more complex to get right in front of this missile.
It is air launched by Mig-31 and Tu-22M. So the best way to prevent being exposed to a Kinzgal shot is to destroy on the ground the fleets of Mig-31Ks and Tu-22Ms. That's potentially up to 190 aircraft according to Wikipedia. Second best thing is to intercept those aircraft before they launch the Kynzhal but that most probably means intercepting them over the Russian territory. I don't know if long range lasers could be an option to neutralize the Kinzhal in flight. An object flying at Mach10 must be pretty hot and given its ballistic trajectory, it's reaching a very high altitude making it visible to IR sensors from a long distance. Teasing it with some extra heat during flight in order to degrade its structural or its aerodynamic integrity could be sufficient to render it unstable meaning it would miss its target.

Here are a couple of articles about the lasers currently in development for the US Army:
https://breakingdefense.com/2019/08/newest-army-laser-could-kill-cruise-missiles/
https://www.thedefensepost.com/2021/10/26/us-army-laser-based-air-defense/


Lasers and other directed energy systems are likely the best way as the speed is many times the hypersonic, as light speed is nearly instataneous. At the hypersonic speed the surface gets red hot, few materials can sustain this, adding heat could cause failure. It would also tend to slide the missle off its path. Likely would also start a tumble, destroying the warhead.


Here is an interesting report about the Kinzhal. The report also covers the covers Russia's approach to deterrence, it's worth the read. Now about the Kinzhal:
How Does the Kinzhal Compare to the Iskander?
The Kinzhal’s design is based on the ballistic 9M723 Iskander missile, having many of the same characteristics, but with significant improvements. For example, whereas the Iskander system has an announced range of 500 kilometers, the Kinzhal is reported to have an operating range of up to 2,000 kilometers if launched from a MiG-31K interceptor and about 3,000 kilometers if launched from a Tu-22M3 bomber. The impressive reach of the system has been a subject of a public relations campaign in Russia, but the number includes the combat radius of the carrier vehicle. The range of the missile after launch is comparable to the 9M723 Iskander; however, the Kinzhal uses the flying carrier vehicle effectively as a booster, which increases the range of the missile itself.


As is the case with the 9M723 Iskander, the Kinzhal’s depressed and unpredictable flight trajectory complicates its interception. However, the recent experience of the 2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war suggests that this is no panacea for evading missile defenses. During the war, the Azeri forces, using an Israeli-made Barak-8 missile defense system, successfully intercepted an Armenian Iskander missile. Although initially assumed to be the downgraded export variant, the intercepted missile may have been the advanced 9M723 model. This suggests that claims of the Kinzhal’s invulnerability to missile defense systems may also be somewhat exaggerated.


The report concludes:
Even though capabilities and the strategic impact of Russia’s advanced weapons systems are sometimes exaggerated, interception of the missile would be a complicated endeavor due to its speed and the mobility of the carrier vehicle. The weak point appears to be the MiG-31K carrier, which is vulnerable to air-to-air munitions.


https://www.csis.org/analysis/strengthening-russias-nuclear-forces-arctic-case-kinzhal-missile
 
ReverseFlow
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Mon Mar 28, 2022 6:30 pm

According to the Spiegel (German news magazine) the US Navy is deploying 6 EA-18 Growlers to Spangdahlem in Germany.

https://www.spiegel.de/ausland/ukrainek ... 9NcCvtlFcJ

The base must be getting pretty busy with all the aircraft stationed there!
 
TheSonntag
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Tue Mar 29, 2022 7:34 am

Currently, an F15 Strike Eagle is visible flying CAP over Rzezow. Very interesting to see. Obviously, Rzezow is quite well protected for obvious reasons - but normally we only see the tankers on ADSB.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Tue Mar 29, 2022 11:59 am

TheSonntag wrote:
Currently, an F15 Strike Eagle is visible flying CAP over Rzezow. Very interesting to see. Obviously, Rzezow is quite well protected for obvious reasons - but normally we only see the tankers on ADSB.


Curious, just one F-15? Don't they typically patrol in pairs?

bt
 
TEALflyer
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Tue Mar 29, 2022 12:30 pm

TheSonntag wrote:
Currently, an F15 Strike Eagle is visible flying CAP over Rzezow. Very interesting to see. Obviously, Rzezow is quite well protected for obvious reasons - but normally we only see the tankers on ADSB.


As well as tankers, some surveillance aircraft are quite often displayed on FlightRadar24.
I have seen the odd RAF fighter, usually only after leaving their patrol area and returning to their base.
... and a rare sight, FlightRadar24 is currently indicating a B-52H over south east Romania. https://fr24.com/2b4eedbf
 
TheSonntag
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Tue Mar 29, 2022 1:18 pm

Curious, just one F-15? Don't they typically patrol in pairs?

They do, but it is not uncommon that you only see one plane on FR/ADSB Global. Lots of movements today, also some czech Gripen over Poland.
 
Vintage
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Tue Mar 29, 2022 1:31 pm

TheSonntag wrote:
Currently, an F15 Strike Eagle is visible flying CAP over Rzezow. Very interesting to see. Obviously, Rzezow is quite well protected for obvious reasons - but normally we only see the tankers on ADSB.
With the transponder turned on, I believe it is meant to send a message.

Another thing that I thought was interesting, was the fact that it was an E model (I believe the 48th Operations Group has C models too) and how long it kept circling above Rzeszow. If you drew it's flight path in a straight line, it would have reached Moscow and back probably.

BTW
I assume there was a wingman with the transponder turned off.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Tue Mar 29, 2022 1:40 pm

Vintage wrote:
With the transponder turned on, I believe it is meant to send a message.


My thoughts too. :thumbsup:

bt
 
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SAS A340
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Tue Mar 29, 2022 3:51 pm

Just because you don't see them on FR24, doesn't mean they are not there, I see "them" every day and not a single one is on FR24 :thumbsup:
 
GDB
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Tue Mar 29, 2022 6:35 pm

Over a month in, how the Ukrainian AF survived and is still functioning, however limited in numbers;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1alGxw9C82g
 
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Spacepope
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Wed Mar 30, 2022 5:32 am

Interesting unicorn today. There’s a French Transall Gabriel headed out from Bucharest over the Black Sea. These were slated for accelerated retirement earlier this year, so it’s good to see it plugging away.
 
rlwynn
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Wed Mar 30, 2022 2:03 pm

TEALflyer wrote:
TheSonntag wrote:
Currently, an F15 Strike Eagle is visible flying CAP over Rzezow. Very interesting to see. Obviously, Rzezow is quite well protected for obvious reasons - but normally we only see the tankers on ADSB.


As well as tankers, some surveillance aircraft are quite often displayed on FlightRadar24.
I have seen the odd RAF fighter, usually only after leaving their patrol area and returning to their base.
... and a rare sight, FlightRadar24 is currently indicating a B-52H over south east Romania. https://fr24.com/2b4eedbf


F-16s from Belgium are usually visible on the way home also.
 
N5301D
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Fri Apr 01, 2022 6:18 pm

How many IL-76 did Ukraine shoot down? Early on it was reported multiple had been shot down.
 
mxaxai
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Fri Apr 01, 2022 7:01 pm

N5301D wrote:
How many IL-76 did Ukraine shoot down? Early on it was reported multiple had been shot down.

2 claimed, 0 confirmed.
 
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csturdiv
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Sat Apr 02, 2022 3:16 am

mxaxai wrote:
N5301D wrote:
How many IL-76 did Ukraine shoot down? Early on it was reported multiple had been shot down.

2 claimed, 0 confirmed.


I heard that claim also but had never seen it on this site, if it is accurate.
https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/a ... t.html?m=1
 
mxaxai
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Sat Apr 02, 2022 12:48 pm

Russian Mi-28N getting its tail cut loose by a missile, claimed to be a British Starstreak. https://twitter.com/UAWeapons/status/15 ... 0892711939
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/uk-m ... -tztnmxqr2
 
TheSonntag
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Sat Apr 02, 2022 4:32 pm

Currently an USAF KC-46 tanker - callsign Pico46 - is on its way from Spain (Edit: not Ramstein) to Poland. First time I see this tanker type - so far we mostly saw KC-10 and KC-135. Italian 767 tankers were seen regularly so far.
 
ReverseFlow
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Sat Apr 02, 2022 5:20 pm

TheSonntag wrote:
Currently an USAF KC-46 tanker - callsign Pico46 - is on its way from Spain (Edit: not Ramstein) to Poland. First time I see this tanker type - so far we mostly saw KC-10 and KC-135. Italian 767 tankers were seen regularly so far.
I've seen some French KC135 (usually callsign Total) from Istres, German A400M and RAF MRTTs from Cyprus doing tanker tracks over Romania and NATO and RAF MRTTs over Poland, too.
 
GDB
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Sat Apr 02, 2022 6:00 pm

ReverseFlow wrote:
TheSonntag wrote:
Currently an USAF KC-46 tanker - callsign Pico46 - is on its way from Spain (Edit: not Ramstein) to Poland. First time I see this tanker type - so far we mostly saw KC-10 and KC-135. Italian 767 tankers were seen regularly so far.
I've seen some French KC135 (usually callsign Total) from Istres, German A400M and RAF MRTTs from Cyprus doing tanker tracks over Romania and NATO and RAF MRTTs over Poland, too.


Interesting, with the deliveries of MRTT’s to the French AF, this will likely be one of the last operations of the veteran KC-135’s. Like that the call sign is also a major French oil company!
 
ReverseFlow
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Sat Apr 02, 2022 7:04 pm

GDB wrote:
ReverseFlow wrote:
TheSonntag wrote:
Currently an USAF KC-46 tanker - callsign Pico46 - is on its way from Spain (Edit: not Ramstein) to Poland. First time I see this tanker type - so far we mostly saw KC-10 and KC-135. Italian 767 tankers were seen regularly so far.
I've seen some French KC135 (usually callsign Total) from Istres, German A400M and RAF MRTTs from Cyprus doing tanker tracks over Romania and NATO and RAF MRTTs over Poland, too.


Interesting, with the deliveries of MRTT’s to the French AF, this will likely be one of the last operations of the veteran KC-135’s. Like that the call sign is also a major French oil company!
I have seen some USAF KC135's with an ESSO and some other oil firm name (Mobil?) callsign.
 
TheSonntag
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Sat Apr 02, 2022 7:44 pm

The callsigns are strange. The KC-135s usually use LAGRxxx, the KC-10 NCHOxxx, but some are called "esso", "Primr" (GAF A400m). Generally, the A400m now seemingly has become a useful asset.
 
ReverseFlow
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Sat Apr 02, 2022 7:52 pm

TheSonntag wrote:
The callsigns are strange. The KC-135s usually use LAGRxxx, the KC-10 NCHOxxx, but some are called "esso", "Primr" (GAF A400m). Generally, the A400m now seemingly has become a useful asset.
They are probably abbreviations for something.
You see loads of 'RCH' USAF flights. This is short for 'Reach'
Some KC135's use them flying between the US and Europe. But mistly it's C17's and C5's.
IIRC there was a baby born on an Afghanistan evacuation flight and it got called Reach.
 
TheSonntag
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Sat Apr 02, 2022 9:10 pm

The B52s are more direct. "Hate11" - "Tyson12" - "Zeus51", but not all of them of course.

Interesting are the differences in Europe. Belgian F16 flying in Belgium usually have names like "Macexx" but those flying to Nordhorn crossing the german border are BAFxx.

The 767 is now on the way back.
 
Nicoeddf
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Sat Apr 02, 2022 9:23 pm

So guys, this attack on the fuel farm in Belgorod. What do you make of it? I mean, the Russians claim Ukrainian “terrorists”, Ukraine denies involvement.
Would the Ukrainian Air Force be able to pull such a stunt of? And if yes, what does it say about Russian air defence?

Thanks for your opinions.
 
mjgbtv
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Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2008 2:18 am

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Sat Apr 02, 2022 9:27 pm

ReverseFlow wrote:
GDB wrote:
ReverseFlow wrote:
I've seen some French KC135 (usually callsign Total) from Istres, German A400M and RAF MRTTs from Cyprus doing tanker tracks over Romania and NATO and RAF MRTTs over Poland, too.


Interesting, with the deliveries of MRTT’s to the French AF, this will likely be one of the last operations of the veteran KC-135’s. Like that the call sign is also a major French oil company!
I have seen some USAF KC135's with an ESSO and some other oil firm name (Mobil?) callsign.


Lots of KC-135s used the Shell callsign during the Kabul airlift. I don't recall seeing Esso then nor seeing Shell in Europe.
 
mxaxai
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Sat Apr 02, 2022 10:45 pm

Nicoeddf wrote:
So guys, this attack on the fuel farm in Belgorod. What do you make of it? I mean, the Russians claim Ukrainian “terrorists”, Ukraine denies involvement.
Would the Ukrainian Air Force be able to pull such a stunt of? And if yes, what does it say about Russian air defence?

Thanks for your opinions.

Air defence is never 100% tight. They can't be everywhere all the time.
I think Ukraine could have pulled it off, though to succeed some intelligence on the location and capabilities of Russian air defence systems would have been very useful. You don't want to accidently stumble into the hornets' nest if there's a way around.

The only thing it says about Russian air defence is that they were clearly not expecting a strike on this particular target.
 
TheSonntag
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Sat Apr 02, 2022 11:49 pm

But if Ukraine did it - why do they deny it then? Wouldnt it be a huge propaganda effort? Strange.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Sun Apr 03, 2022 12:18 am

Just saw on one of the US news report on You Tube that US official said that the Ukrainian did the attack. Can't find an other links mentioning this though.

bt
 
johns624
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Sun Apr 03, 2022 12:46 am

TheSonntag wrote:
But if Ukraine did it - why do they deny it then? Wouldnt it be a huge propaganda effort? Strange.
Maybe it's better having the Russians worrying that some of their own citizens are sabotaging the war effort. Just like all the "leaks" about getting help from high sources in the Russian govt. Keep them looking over their shoulder at everyone around them.
 
11Bravo
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Sun Apr 03, 2022 1:04 am

TheSonntag wrote:
But if Ukraine did it - why do they deny it then? Wouldnt it be a huge propaganda effort? Strange.


They didn't deny it. The statement was "We can neither confirm or reject the claim". In my view that is a confirmation. It's classic DoD or MoD speak. We did it, but we're not going to tell you.

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