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SeJoWa
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Sun Apr 03, 2022 11:23 am

Ukrainian forces at Hostomel airport
https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/stat ... 2379608067

This is just an airport. It can be rebuilt. Not so much human beings or (un)civil societies.

Over and over, the terror Russia's barbaric forces unleash to destroy not only bodies but also souls has been in evidence, from Grozny to Syria to Ukraine today. And with their withdrawal on the axis that once threatened Kyiv, another set of horrid tales and pictures presents itself.

Either we abandon Ukrainians to fight and die in a last stand for their country, or we stop kidding ourselves and tripping over our completely made-up-by-us red lines which only ever sustain evil. The Kremlin's goons must be stopped. Must. We don't even have to shed any blood of our own. Ukraine needs and deserves massive material aid that can truly turn the tide and over time dissuade another incursion.
 
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glideslope
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Sun Apr 03, 2022 1:46 pm

Spacepope wrote:
Oykie wrote:
petertenthije wrote:

https://edition.cnn.com/europe/live-new ... 7db16cac80

US officials confirmed to CNN that Russia launched hypersonic missiles against Ukraine last week, the first known use of such missiles in combat. The US was able to track the launches in real time, the sources said.


It’s good to know that they could track it in real time. I hope the intel will make it possible to make a counter system to protect against hypersonic missiles.


The boys and girls at NORAD must be drooling over all the combat sigint the Russians are leaking all over this conflict.


I'm certain that they are. :checkmark:
 
ReverseFlow
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Sun Apr 03, 2022 2:35 pm

mjgbtv wrote:
ReverseFlow wrote:
GDB wrote:

Interesting, with the deliveries of MRTT’s to the French AF, this will likely be one of the last operations of the veteran KC-135’s. Like that the call sign is also a major French oil company!
I have seen some USAF KC135's with an ESSO and some other oil firm name (Mobil?) callsign.


Lots of KC-135s used the Shell callsign during the Kabul airlift. I don't recall seeing Esso then nor seeing Shell in Europe.
I've seen the ESSO trach a few times over Bremen going north-east
 
TheSonntag
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Sun Apr 03, 2022 2:51 pm

Currently, an Australian C17 on route from Rzezow.
 
TheSonntag
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Sun Apr 03, 2022 2:52 pm

ReverseFlow wrote:
mjgbtv wrote:
ReverseFlow wrote:
I have seen some USAF KC135's with an ESSO and some other oil firm name (Mobil?) callsign.


Lots of KC-135s used the Shell callsign during the Kabul airlift. I don't recall seeing Esso then nor seeing Shell in Europe.
I've seen the ESSO trach a few times over Bremen going north-east


These are usually peacetime exercises. Close to Bremen over the Ems area we have the Nordhorn range and military practice areas which are used by many planes.
 
ReverseFlow
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Sun Apr 03, 2022 3:50 pm

TheSonntag wrote:
ReverseFlow wrote:
mjgbtv wrote:

Lots of KC-135s used the Shell callsign during the Kabul airlift. I don't recall seeing Esso then nor seeing Shell in Europe.
I've seen the ESSO trach a few times over Bremen going north-east


These are usually peacetime exercises. Close to Bremen over the Ems area we have the Nordhorn range and military practice areas which are used by many planes.
I've seen it in the past few weeks.
What I wonder is, the S400 range from Kaliningrad is apparently about till Berlin. This track would just be outside this range.
But yes, I've seen it over that past years, too.
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Sun Apr 03, 2022 6:10 pm

SeJoWa wrote:
Ukrainian forces at Hostomel airport
https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/stat ... 2379608067

This is just an airport. It can be rebuilt. Not so much human beings or (un)civil societies.

Over and over, the terror Russia's barbaric forces unleash to destroy not only bodies but also souls has been in evidence, from Grozny to Syria to Ukraine today. And with their withdrawal on the axis that once threatened Kyiv, another set of horrid tales and pictures presents itself.

Either we abandon Ukrainians to fight and die in a last stand for their country, or we stop kidding ourselves and tripping over our completely made-up-by-us red lines which only ever sustain evil. The Kremlin's goons must be stopped. Must. We don't even have to shed any blood of our own. Ukraine needs and deserves massive material aid that can truly turn the tide and over time dissuade another incursion.


I feel it is time for US Airpower to join in, it will be difficult to just supply material aid in sufficient amounts. Much of what Ukraine needs as to equipment takes training.

Agree that the Kremlin goons must be stopped, that would provide the right message to China as well.
 
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SamYeager2016
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Sun Apr 03, 2022 6:33 pm

JayinKitsap wrote:
I feel it is time for US Airpower to join in, it will be difficult to just supply material aid in sufficient amounts. Much of what Ukraine needs as to equipment takes training.


If you want the US to go to war, because that's what US Airpower joining in means, then you need to persuade Washington & the US public to back such a course. Whilst Putin steers clear of attacking a NATO country and/or NATO forces then it's just not going to happen.
 
bajs11
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Sun Apr 03, 2022 8:23 pm

not sure if anyone has posted this video
https://youtu.be/Wl21IU8jrh8

It shows whats left of the An-225 Mriya :(
 
GDB
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Sun Apr 03, 2022 9:43 pm

While quite rightly the atrocities committed by the Russians are of primary concern outside of the actual progress of the war, epic back to the USSR stupidity here;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XMAiURcYXw
 
CX747
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Mon Apr 04, 2022 12:28 am

Vintage wrote:
TheSonntag wrote:
Currently, an F15 Strike Eagle is visible flying CAP over Rzezow. Very interesting to see. Obviously, Rzezow is quite well protected for obvious reasons - but normally we only see the tankers on ADSB.
With the transponder turned on, I believe it is meant to send a message.

Another thing that I thought was interesting, was the fact that it was an E model (I believe the 48th Operations Group has C models too) and how long it kept circling above Rzeszow. If you drew it's flight path in a straight line, it would have reached Moscow and back probably.

BTW
I assume there was a wingman with the transponder turned off.


2 was there.

F-15Cs with the 493rd but time marches on. The first F-35A for the Reapers was caught flying in Texas a few weeks back. The Mudhens continue to rock on. Some of the boys are now in Greece.
 
CX747
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Mon Apr 04, 2022 12:34 am

Spacepope wrote:
Oykie wrote:
petertenthije wrote:

https://edition.cnn.com/europe/live-new ... 7db16cac80

US officials confirmed to CNN that Russia launched hypersonic missiles against Ukraine last week, the first known use of such missiles in combat. The US was able to track the launches in real time, the sources said.


It’s good to know that they could track it in real time. I hope the intel will make it possible to make a counter system to protect against hypersonic missiles.


The boys and girls at NORAD must be drooling over all the combat sigint the Russians are leaking all over this conflict.


Plenty of 24/7 flying and watching going on. Not the best idea for my Uncle to be attempting to retire JSTARS at the moment but they don't ask for my opinion.
 
CX747
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Mon Apr 04, 2022 12:41 am

https://breakingdefense.com/2022/04/exc ... ern-front/

Good to see the new hotness -46s working for a living.
 
CX747
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Mon Apr 04, 2022 1:05 am

In addition to the 6 Growlers at Spangdahlem, 10 Legacy USMC Hornets will be joining the party at an airfield in Europe shortly.

https://theaviationist.com/2022/03/30/u ... rn-europe/

Who said Cornet Easts were not in fashion anymore?!?! I'll pound the table again and say that now is NOT the time to be retiring booms. For the love of Pete, at least just retire the -10s and move any displaced -135s to new homes that do not include AMARG.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Mon Apr 04, 2022 1:25 am

CX747 wrote:
my Uncle to be attempting to retire JSTARS at the moment but they don't ask for my opinion.


Only the USAF. The Navy will have the AAS radar for the P-8A.

bt
 
CX747
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Mon Apr 04, 2022 1:39 am

bikerthai wrote:
CX747 wrote:
my Uncle to be attempting to retire JSTARS at the moment but they don't ask for my opinion.


Only the USAF. The Navy will have the AAS radar for the P-8A.

bt


P-8s bring plenty to the table but losing E-8 tails at this time is pennywise and tactically foolish. Now, if you told me the USN was buying MORE P-8s and going to give them wider tactical use I would listen. If you told me the Army had biz jet tails in number ready to rock, then I would feel slightly better.

Overall, more P-8s are needed for just USN priorities but the ocean loving boys sunk that ship. I shudder here to an extent but the Army shows promise in some of its business jet desires and supposed procurement of ex-UK assets. The gap will need to be plugged and it seems the USAF, like with the EF-111 is just shutting down and not thinking tactically/responsibly. I do give the USAF credit in buying additional BACN assets though.

What needs to happen is the Army needs to offer to cross-deck the E-8 tech onto Gulfstreams. That will stop any retirement, dead in its tracks!!!
 
Vintage
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Mon Apr 04, 2022 2:29 am

CX747 wrote:
Not the best idea for my Uncle to be attempting to retire JSTARS at the moment

Assuming they keep them around until this kerfuffle is over, this seems like the optimum time to put them out to pasture.

After this, they probably won't be needed for a long time. And after seeing how well the Javelins and NLAWS work, Russian tanks are no longer much of a threat.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Mon Apr 04, 2022 3:42 am

CX747 wrote:
Now, if you told me the USN was buying MORE P-8s and going to give them wider tactical use I would listen.


I think they will get more than the original 117 planned.

As for wider use, have they not been using the P-3 for surveillance further inland in Afghanistan?

bt
 
mxaxai
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Mon Apr 04, 2022 9:36 am

First images of a Russian Su-35 wreck. Looks like it pancaked flat on the ground after the pilot ejected (pilot was reportedly captured). https://twitter.com/nexta_tv/status/1510603614783426562

Would be the first ever confirmed loss of a Su-35 in combat. Ukraine has claimed to have destroyed at least 2 prior to this but without independent confirmation (yet).
 
ReverseFlow
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Mon Apr 04, 2022 10:10 am

Has Russia been flying the SU57 in the Ukraine?
As they seem to like to showcase their newest weapons during wars. They seemed to have used it in Syria.
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/ ... ria-106541

They used the Kinzhal and 'advertised' it but they haven't been bragging about it for a while. Unless they've run out of them already.
 
petertenthije
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Mon Apr 04, 2022 11:43 am

ReverseFlow wrote:
Has Russia been flying the SU57 in the Ukraine?

This footage appears to be a su-57, though it is hard to be sure.

https://t.me/bmpd_cast/10913
 
ThePointblank
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Mon Apr 04, 2022 7:11 pm

mxaxai wrote:
First images of a Russian Su-35 wreck. Looks like it pancaked flat on the ground after the pilot ejected (pilot was reportedly captured). https://twitter.com/nexta_tv/status/1510603614783426562

Would be the first ever confirmed loss of a Su-35 in combat. Ukraine has claimed to have destroyed at least 2 prior to this but without independent confirmation (yet).

More importantly for Western intelligence agencies, one of the electronic warfare jamming pods is in good enough shape for a good technical analysis. US and other Western intelligence agencies are going to be drooling over this as well.
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Mon Apr 04, 2022 8:49 pm

ThePointblank wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
First images of a Russian Su-35 wreck. Looks like it pancaked flat on the ground after the pilot ejected (pilot was reportedly captured). https://twitter.com/nexta_tv/status/1510603614783426562

Would be the first ever confirmed loss of a Su-35 in combat. Ukraine has claimed to have destroyed at least 2 prior to this but without independent confirmation (yet).

More importantly for Western intelligence agencies, one of the electronic warfare jamming pods is in good enough shape for a good technical analysis. US and other Western intelligence agencies are going to be drooling over this as well.

Yes, that "Khibiny" (Хибины) pod would get a very good look at.
Russians seem to enamoured with the thing, insisting it can shut down Aegis and do other magic.
 
CX747
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Tue Apr 05, 2022 12:54 am

Vintage wrote:
CX747 wrote:
Not the best idea for my Uncle to be attempting to retire JSTARS at the moment

Assuming they keep them around until this kerfuffle is over, this seems like the optimum time to put them out to pasture.

After this, they probably won't be needed for a long time. And after seeing how well the Javelins and NLAWS work, Russian tanks are no longer much of a threat.


Putting a jet out to pasture, without a replacement in my mind is a no go. That's how you end up having Navy fighters, turned Electronic Warfare jets, show up at an Air Force Base!!!!!

As for no longer needing E-8Cs, either now or in the future, nothing could be farther from the truth. Hopefully in the overall USG plan, there is a good way forward.

Good luck to our Ukranian friends as they fight through another evening.
 
ThePointblank
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Tue Apr 05, 2022 9:48 am

CX747 wrote:
Vintage wrote:
CX747 wrote:
Not the best idea for my Uncle to be attempting to retire JSTARS at the moment

Assuming they keep them around until this kerfuffle is over, this seems like the optimum time to put them out to pasture.

After this, they probably won't be needed for a long time. And after seeing how well the Javelins and NLAWS work, Russian tanks are no longer much of a threat.


Putting a jet out to pasture, without a replacement in my mind is a no go. That's how you end up having Navy fighters, turned Electronic Warfare jets, show up at an Air Force Base!!!!!

As for no longer needing E-8Cs, either now or in the future, nothing could be farther from the truth. Hopefully in the overall USG plan, there is a good way forward.

Good luck to our Ukranian friends as they fight through another evening.

The E-8 airframes are old and tired; they were converted from used Boeing 707's sourced from a variety of sources, secondhand with some fairly questionable histories.

A few are even ex-RCAF birds, which have been used and abused thoroughly.
 
CX747
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Tue Apr 05, 2022 10:19 am

ThePointblank wrote:
CX747 wrote:
Vintage wrote:
Assuming they keep them around until this kerfuffle is over, this seems like the optimum time to put them out to pasture.

After this, they probably won't be needed for a long time. And after seeing how well the Javelins and NLAWS work, Russian tanks are no longer much of a threat.


Putting a jet out to pasture, without a replacement in my mind is a no go. That's how you end up having Navy fighters, turned Electronic Warfare jets, show up at an Air Force Base!!!!!

As for no longer needing E-8Cs, either now or in the future, nothing could be farther from the truth. Hopefully in the overall USG plan, there is a good way forward.

Good luck to our Ukranian friends as they fight through another evening.

The E-8 airframes are old and tired; they were converted from used Boeing 707's sourced from a variety of sources, secondhand with some fairly questionable histories.

A few are even ex-RCAF birds, which have been used and abused thoroughly.


Definitely no argument here that the E-8Cs are not birds who have seen their fair share of years/hours/sunrises/sunsets. The issue for me and others is that no replacement tool is in the pipeline or on the ramp. That is not a good position to be in.

The fleet itself was born into conflict with the first Gulf War and has been heavily used worldwide since that time. Note that upon issues with the Ukraine rising up, E-8Cs were again some of the first birds deployed. Not one word about being old, tired or incapable of keeping up with the European theater needs. We need a replacement and saying a "system of systems" and not even knowing what that means is an untenable position to put oneself in.
 
GDB
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Tue Apr 05, 2022 12:33 pm

What looks like a low flying KA-52 getting downed by a STGNA-P ATGM system;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MT8Um69fbHA
 
TheSonntag
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Tue Apr 05, 2022 1:19 pm

Currently, both the Joint Stars as well as the tankers and especially the Rivet Joints are getting flight hours which are comparable to civilian airliners. Not to speak of the fighters, which are also accumulating flight hours on an impressive rate. This is certainly an issue in the long tooth.
 
johns624
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Tue Apr 05, 2022 1:23 pm

TheSonntag wrote:
Currently, both the Joint Stars as well as the tankers and especially the Rivet Joints are getting flight hours which are comparable to civilian airliners. Not to speak of the fighters, which are also accumulating flight hours on an impressive rate. This is certainly an issue in the long tooth.
Not to sound flippant, but that's what they're for. If you wear them out, you replace them.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Tue Apr 05, 2022 1:30 pm

johns624 wrote:
Not to sound flippant, but that's what they're for. If you wear them out, you replace them.


They got fighters in the pipeline. They got tankers in the pipeline. They are about to squeeze AEW&C in the pipeline (I see NATO is looking at AWACs replacement as well). JSTARS . . . not so much.

bt
 
johns624
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Tue Apr 05, 2022 1:41 pm

bikerthai wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Not to sound flippant, but that's what they're for. If you wear them out, you replace them.


They got fighters in the pipeline. They got tankers in the pipeline. They are about to squeeze AEW&C in the pipeline (I see NATO is looking at AWACs replacement as well). JSTARS . . . not so much.

bt
I understand. It just seems like some people think that the military is just for show and not to be used, or used up. Ships tied to the pier or planes in hangars last a lot longer but don't serve the purpose that they were designed for.
 
TheSonntag
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Tue Apr 05, 2022 1:42 pm

johns624 wrote:
TheSonntag wrote:
Currently, both the Joint Stars as well as the tankers and especially the Rivet Joints are getting flight hours which are comparable to civilian airliners. Not to speak of the fighters, which are also accumulating flight hours on an impressive rate. This is certainly an issue in the long tooth.
Not to sound flippant, but that's what they're for. If you wear them out, you replace them.


I absolutely agree with you. While military planes are exempt from noise regulations, this also has an environmental impact. This doesn't matter in current war times, but flying un-hushkitted JT-3D AWACS and Joint Stars in the year 2022 is also questionable from a pure neighbourhood/environmental point of view, especially since there is a replacement available which is quieter, has a longer endurance, cheaper maintenance and higher reliability.

But the current Ukraine crisis is probably the wrong time to retire them, but certainly the right time to think about it.

I will miss the black smoke, but I do not live in Geilenkirchen where the planes fly directly over the town.
 
GDB
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Tue Apr 05, 2022 3:10 pm

johns624 wrote:
bikerthai wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Not to sound flippant, but that's what they're for. If you wear them out, you replace them.


They got fighters in the pipeline. They got tankers in the pipeline. They are about to squeeze AEW&C in the pipeline (I see NATO is looking at AWACs replacement as well). JSTARS . . . not so much.

bt
I understand. It just seems like some people think that the military is just for show and not to be used, or used up. Ships tied to the pier or planes in hangars last a lot longer but don't serve the purpose that they were designed for.


Remember our dopey government and the RAF Stentinels? They wanted them gone for costs they said, however continued use in Afghanistan and then requests from allies not always NATO ones either for their services kept them going, until last year.
Ditched our AWACS too without replacement. By all means have a go at the Germans, they however are willing to admit and reverse their mistakes and when it comes to exposure to Russian money, our clowns let 'Londongrad' rip and fund their corrupt, shitty party.
 
CX747
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Wed Apr 06, 2022 2:00 am

TheSonntag wrote:
johns624 wrote:
TheSonntag wrote:
Currently, both the Joint Stars as well as the tankers and especially the Rivet Joints are getting flight hours which are comparable to civilian airliners. Not to speak of the fighters, which are also accumulating flight hours on an impressive rate. This is certainly an issue in the long tooth.
Not to sound flippant, but that's what they're for. If you wear them out, you replace them.


I absolutely agree with you. While military planes are exempt from noise regulations, this also has an environmental impact. This doesn't matter in current war times, but flying un-hushkitted JT-3D AWACS and Joint Stars in the year 2022 is also questionable from a pure neighbourhood/environmental point of view, especially since there is a replacement available which is quieter, has a longer endurance, cheaper maintenance and higher reliability.

But the current Ukraine crisis is probably the wrong time to retire them, but certainly the right time to think about it.

I will miss the black smoke, but I do not live in Geilenkirchen where the planes fly directly over the town.


We have women and children having horrible things done to them. We have more people dying via military conflict in the Ukraine today than via the "enviornment" of older engines in Germany. Even bringing "environmental" impact of an older engine into a conversation earns one a "failed ride".

Let's be thankful we have reliable, proven aircraft blasting out of NATO bases.

Caught a video of Checkerboard's F/A-18C and D aircraft arriving in Norway. All the way around the world and the jets finally get their own hangars!!!
 
TheSonntag
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Wed Apr 06, 2022 9:00 am

BTW, why do the USMC have their own Hornet fighters? What is their mission, compared to the USN? Why do the USMC still use the older version? And what is their mission?
 
mxaxai
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Wed Apr 06, 2022 9:20 am

TheSonntag wrote:
BTW, why do the USMC have their own Hornet fighters? What is their mission, compared to the USN? Why do the USMC still use the older version? And what is their mission?

Same reason why the Marines have their own tanks, boats, helicopters, carriers, etc. They want a full set of capabilities for their mission without relying on other services. And if they need support (e. g. CATOBAR carriers) they still prefer to have their own equipment and chain of command wherever possible.
 
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cjg225
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Wed Apr 06, 2022 11:13 am

GDB wrote:
What looks like a low flying KA-52 getting downed by a STGNA-P ATGM system;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MT8Um69fbHA

Sooooo.... NOT "only in Battlefield?"
 
GDB
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Wed Apr 06, 2022 12:46 pm

Excellent and very in depth analysis on Ward Carroll's site, with Justin Bronk of the RUSI, who wrote that article early on about the poor performance of the Russian AF.
A lot to unpack subsequently, including what might have been the real reason that Russian assault transport got blown up in port;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8sybxO9I7w&t=1641s

cjg225, back in the 80's Bofors developed a crew served ATGM, the Bofors 'Bill', probably the first one with top attack against armour, at the time it was also said it could go after low flying helicopters too.
 
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LyleLanley
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Thu Apr 07, 2022 12:38 am

CX747 wrote:
We have women and children having horrible things done to them. We have more people dying via military conflict in the Ukraine today than via the "enviornment" of older engines in Germany. Even bringing "environmental" impact of an older engine into a conversation earns one a "failed ride".

Let's be thankful we have reliable, proven aircraft blasting out of NATO bases.


Really? Dude agreed with you, including to say it’s wartime and that now isn’t the time to retire those jets, and you throw out the false equivalency as if the dude inferred 20 decibels and some smoke is worth hundreds of civilian lives?

Buddy spike!
 
TheSonntag
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Thu Apr 07, 2022 8:43 am

Relax guys. I was just making a point that we need more sustainable long term planning. Especially since 50 year old planes are prone to breaking down faster if they fly 20 hours a day like the EC-135Ws and others.

The same applies to the fighter jets. They are getting so many flight hours now that sooner or later they need extensive checks - and if we only have a few, this is an issue if the conflict goes on.

So, my point merely is, the time to re-engine or replace those planes was yesterday, if we are honest to ourselves.
 
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BaconButty
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Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2013 3:42 pm

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Thu Apr 07, 2022 8:53 am

I've been following this list of verified destroyed/damaged/captured equipment for a while now like I'm sure many of you. Took a deeper look at aircraft losses, specifically helicopters, and was actually surprised by what I saw.

As of now there are 32 losses, of which destroyed: 28, damaged: 2, abandoned: 1, captured: 1. Looked at all of them, and broke them down, particularly with a view to seeing how the thousands of heat seeking manpads have been performing. So I reckon, of those 32, 12 were destroyed on the ground (mostly at Kherson), another 7 were not brought down by IR Manpads - various reasons, not being shot down at all, being bought down by sumething else, even an atgm! That only left 13 candidates, some of which will be mechanical failures, other SAM's, anti aircraft guns self propelled or otherwise, even small arms fire and RPGs. I'd say it's odds on that in 6 weeks of fighting, the number of helicopters bought down by heat seeking manpads is in single figures, and there's no candidates later than 17th March! I know that list only has visually confirmed losses, but it seems unlikely to me that there will be many helicopters actually shot down without footage of either the event or the wreckage.

Given the amount of these weapons either already in Ukraine, or donated, that seems a paltry return. Given the way the Russians are now using attack helicopters as top cover for convoys in the east, and so deterring the kind of ambushes that worked so well in the north, that concerns me. A few questions:

1. Why? Is it because the Russians have recently installed countermeasures on their helicopters? How they are being deployed? Simple to be expected?
2. Does this mean heat seeking missiles are obselete against a near peer enemy now?
3. What can be done? Starstreak can't be bought in in sufficient numbers - of fire control units at least.
 
TheSonntag
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Thu Apr 07, 2022 9:20 am

Several reasons:

1. The mere presence of Manpads lead to new rules of engagement, avoiding critical areas. So they did a job in suppressing and preventing air superiority.
2. Many stinger arrived relatively late in the conflict - German deliverys only startet at the beginning of the conflict. The Strelas came even later. Also the stinger from other sources had to be stripped of classified equipment.

So I would assume they are working as expected.
 
mxaxai
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Thu Apr 07, 2022 11:07 am

A number of Ukrainian Il-76 that were unable to depart Melitopol in time have been destroyed on the ground, after Russian forces captured the airport. https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/stat ... 4912636929

Some others have been flown to Poland early in the conflict. https://twitter.com/Gerjon_/status/1511291983997853699
 
johns624
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Thu Apr 07, 2022 4:21 pm

How many were delivered and how many have been used are two entirely different things.
 
ReverseFlow
Posts: 392
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2022 4:40 pm

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Thu Apr 07, 2022 8:17 pm

I just saw this of apparently SU-25 pumping out flares.

https://mobile.twitter.com/RALee85/stat ... se-program

How many would they have and would they have an indication of how many they have left?
 
tomcat
Posts: 1036
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2000 4:14 am

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Thu Apr 07, 2022 9:36 pm

ReverseFlow wrote:
I just saw this of apparently SU-25 pumping out flares.

https://mobile.twitter.com/RALee85/stat ... se-program

How many would they have and would they have an indication of how many they have left?


Among the comments below this video, I noticed the following ones:
- "a Su-25 can only hold 250 flares"
- "These are inefficient flares anyway. They are called legacy thermal protection since modern missiles ignore them. They are effective only against legacy AD systems."
 
Utah744
Posts: 262
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2009 10:41 pm

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Thu Apr 07, 2022 11:22 pm

mxaxai wrote:
TheSonntag wrote:
BTW, why do the USMC have their own Hornet fighters? What is their mission, compared to the USN? Why do the USMC still use the older version? And what is their mission?

Same reason why the Marines have their own tanks, boats, helicopters, carriers, etc. They want a full set of capabilities for their mission without relying on other services. And if they need support (e. g. CATOBAR carriers) they still prefer to have their own equipment and chain of command wherever possible.
As a Midshipman aboard a CVA in the med. for my last summer cruise in 1966 there were two A-4 Skyhawk squadrons, one Navy and the other Marine. I watched the camera video of the A-4s arrivals "traps". The Navy pilots were very noticeably better rated than the Marines. BUT I also watch both squadrons a few days later in their bombing (inert bombs) runs on the sled being towed behind the carrier and the results were night and day differ3ent. The best Navy bomber was worse than the last Marine pilot. My guess is that the top people in the MC wanted Marine pilots dropping bombs near their troops.
 
MohawkWeekend
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Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:06 pm

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Fri Apr 08, 2022 12:50 am

Wonder if it would be possible to configure Polish MiG-29's to fire western missiles and then add aircraft to the Ukrainian AF? Would stun the Russians if the MiG's had the Meteor or AIM-120.

Also convert some Bulgarian SU-25's to carry either the Harpoon or Penguin missiles. Might put at risk those Russian warships. At least push them further off shore.
 
GDB
Posts: 15377
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Fri Apr 08, 2022 5:51 am

MohawkWeekend wrote:
Wonder if it would be possible to configure Polish MiG-29's to fire western missiles and then add aircraft to the Ukrainian AF? Would stun the Russians if the MiG's had the Meteor or AIM-120.

Also convert some Bulgarian SU-25's to carry either the Harpoon or Penguin missiles. Might put at risk those Russian warships. At least push them further off shore.


That would be a major task and lengthy, even if the elderly radar and systems on the MiG-29 could use them with any effectiveness.
Since the first 12 Polish ones were delivered in the Cold War, plus others from the Czechs and Germany of the same vintage, they won’t have had any major upgrades that later ones had.
 
TheSonntag
Posts: 4698
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 7:23 pm

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Fri Apr 08, 2022 8:28 am

In 1997, I talked with a german fighter pilot who flew both the F4 and the Mig 29. He was not really Impressed with the Mig29, especially the radar. The Archer Missiles, however, were the reason Germany developed the Iris T in the first place. Much better than the German AIM9L.

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