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Phosphorus
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Fri Sep 02, 2022 2:17 pm

bikerthai wrote:
From what I read, those planes were flying up to the point of retirement. So I would guess they would only need to get re-pained, maybe NATO encrypted radios removed. And the usual paperwork . . . .

Wonder if they will fly them over or send them over as spare parts?

bt

spare part kits, probably. The issue of flying over a combat jet from a NATO country into Ukrainian airspace, while maintaining NATO formal non-belligerence, has not been solved, or so it seems.

USA and Canada simply towed an airplane over the boundary in 1940-1941, to solve the same riddle. With a truck, or tractor, or horses. But those were the days when dirt runways were still OK.

However, as russians still have airplanes and rockets left, the added problem is air threat. You cannot build a cross-border airfield and hope it remains safe.
So, gotta either make sure there are no more rockets and airplanes in russia, or no more russia.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Fri Sep 02, 2022 2:18 pm

It is interesting on how Ukraine was able to obtain local air superiority over the southern edge of the Kerson front.

Part of the achievement was due to them able to drive the Russian Airforce from Crimea. Kind of effective in pushing those planes back by attacking their fuel and amo supply.

Then they attack the SAMs with HARMs and HIMARS. Maybe we should start calling the the H&M Duo?

Wonder if this was worked out through the many wargames the Ukrainian had with the Western advisors?


bt
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Fri Sep 02, 2022 2:27 pm

Phosphorus wrote:
However, as russians still have airplanes and rockets left, the added problem is air threat.


Somehow I don't think the Russian will be able to target anything near the Slovakian/Ukrainian border, specially at night.

By the time any missiles are detected and the time it reaches the target, the target would have been way down the road.

Have we yet seen any Russian long range land attack missile able to track and adjust target mid flight?

bt
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Fri Sep 02, 2022 6:43 pm

bikerthai wrote:
Phosphorus wrote:
However, as russians still have airplanes and rockets left, the added problem is air threat.


Somehow I don't think the Russian will be able to target anything near the Slovakian/Ukrainian border, specially at night.

By the time any missiles are detected and the time it reaches the target, the target would have been way down the road.

Have we yet seen any Russian long range land attack missile able to track and adjust target mid flight?

bt

Really depends on how serious is the question and how earnest is the answer. Because each time a russian rocket hits a shopping mall or a maternity ward, we hear stuff like "Ukrainian army positioned (something) there, so we changed targeting mid-flight and successfully engaged that target". As in "every Ukrainian that is killed by russian army was a Nazi. Whoever russian army shoots -- is a Nazi by definition".

Whether they really have that capability? Good question.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Fri Sep 02, 2022 7:09 pm

Phosphorus wrote:
we hear stuff like "Ukrainian army positioned (something) there, so we changed targeting mid-flight and successfully engaged that target".


:rotfl:
Just like when those SAMs did a U-turn, they were re-programed to attack some Ukrainian saboteur who were about to attack the SAM site.
:spin:

bt
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Fri Sep 02, 2022 7:52 pm

bikerthai wrote:
It is interesting on how Ukraine was able to obtain local air superiority over the southern edge of the Kerson front.

Part of the achievement was due to them able to drive the Russian Airforce from Crimea. Kind of effective in pushing those planes back by attacking their fuel and amo supply.

Then they attack the SAMs with HARMs and HIMARS. Maybe we should start calling the the H&M Duo?

Wonder if this was worked out through the many wargames the Ukrainian had with the Western advisors?


bt


Ukrainian Air Force has spent decades jointly training with California Air National Guard, and integrated air defense (including S-300 and MiG-29 and Su-27) was among the key topics.
I would be most surprised if they didn't spend a lot of time on not only perfecting Ukraine's integrated air defense strategy and tactics, but also on study of weaknesses and vulnerabilities that could be exploited.

A short-to-medium range missile strike against key targets must be among those aces in the hole they came up with.
 
penguins
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Wed Sep 07, 2022 8:59 am

Check out this snipe !!
 
GDB
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Wed Sep 07, 2022 7:17 pm

Ukraine Mi-24's in action;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0n2BYlesJRc

The much seen SU-25 shootdown, seems to be not by MANPADS but by a Ukrainian SU-25;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xguvt4-yNZY
 
mxaxai
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Wed Sep 07, 2022 9:36 pm

GDB wrote:
The much seen SU-25 shootdown, seems to be not by MANPADS but by a Ukrainian SU-25;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xguvt4-yNZY

I'd argue that this is an optical illusion, and that it was a MANPADS fired from a position uphill, fairly close to but uphill of the cameraman. The extremly high apparent initial velocity, and the comparatively long time until impact, suggest that the missile was much closer to the cameraman than the aircraft. This doesn't match that the second Su-25 appears to be right on the first one's six (it's going about the same speed and has the same size on screen).
 
rheinwaldner
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Thu Sep 08, 2022 8:27 am

bikerthai wrote:
It is interesting on how Ukraine was able to obtain local air superiority over the southern edge of the Kerson front.

For me the interesting part is how weak the Russians are and how ancient their methods are. They seem not to be able to execute any of the modern types of warfare.

E.g. they seem to be totally uncapable to run the probably most modern types of warfare, the drone warfare (even Ukraine is better in that!). All while large scale drone operations have been demonstrated by the US since 20 years or so.

Next, going back 20-30 years, western air forces performed extensive and devastating conventional air campaigns. But Russia in 2022 is not able to ramp up anything close to that. And even that appears an understatement.

Then, going back further in military history, we see fast progressing tank armies in the Middle Eastern wars and in WWII (even done by the Sowjets!). And Russia in 2022? A total failure to operate their tanks in any operation that resembles the Blitzkrieg!

So what type of warfare are they able to accomplish? Infantry slowly progressing after brute force and dumb artillery attacks. This is WWI type of warfare.

imho NATO has nothing to fear from the Russian military. The Russians leave a really weak impression about their strength....
 
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flyingturtle
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Thu Sep 08, 2022 9:53 am

rheinwaldner wrote:
For me the interesting part is how weak the Russians are and how ancient their methods are. They seem not to be able to execute any of the modern types of warfare.

E.g. they seem to be totally uncapable to run the probably most modern types of warfare, the drone warfare (even Ukraine is better in that!). All while large scale drone operations have been demonstrated by the US since 20 years or so.



All caused by a system that rewards loyalty over competence. There are many ways to defer military service in Russia (e.g. by studying, or by serving in a government agency like the FSB), and Russia has only one institute that turns soldiers into non-commissioned ossifers - and only 2000 of them, every year. And if you have good connections, you'll be placed at a college and get straight to a (usually) peaceful desk job as a commissioned officer.

A system that prevents the bright minds from reaching the combat zones and command centers.

Infamously, a company was paid about 26 million to produce an anti-missile system. The company itself founded various shell companies, which were legally registered at a public toilet in the city of Samara. Everybody keeps what he can take, with no resources being left over for serious training and proper equipment.

A specialized doctor working at a state hospital in Moscow earns as much as Russian soldier after three months of training. And there are videos of mothers, sobbing, receiving really bad news on the phone... her son being captured by the Ukrainians, instead of being killed. Which would get the parents about 200'000 USD.

And don't worry, it's not the sons of St. Petersburg or Moscow doing the dying. It's the sons of Siberia, Buryatina...

It's a utter sham. We all thought the Russian Army would be the 2nd-best in the world. Now we aren't even sure they are the 2nd-best army in Ukraine.

---

Turning the Russian Army into a serious force would mean putting 90% of Russia's politicians, bureaucrats, officers and many more into prison. You can't allow a safe haven for corruption, kleptocracy and nepotism. And that's why we won't have to fear Russia in the coming years.
 
johns624
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Thu Sep 08, 2022 11:34 am

rheinwaldner wrote:
For me the interesting part is how weak the Russians are and how ancient their methods are. They seem not to be able to execute any of the modern types of warfare.
The only reason that anyone takes them seriously is because of their nuclear arsenal. If they didn't have that, the Ukrainian war would be over by now.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Thu Sep 08, 2022 1:01 pm

rheinwaldner wrote:
So what type of warfare are they able to accomplish?


There is a mantra in Western military phylosophy.

"You train how you fight. You fight how you train" or something similar.

That is the reason western forces participate in various excersise around the world simulating all aspect of combined arms. It cost lots of money to have these excersise which is worth while if your soldiers stick around and are experienced.

How much effort does the Russian put into their excersise? Does it involve more than just a glorified live fire event? It costs a lot of money to do such excersise. Money better spent on villas an yatchs. ;)



bt
 
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par13del
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Thu Sep 08, 2022 7:18 pm

johns624 wrote:
rheinwaldner wrote:
For me the interesting part is how weak the Russians are and how ancient their methods are. They seem not to be able to execute any of the modern types of warfare.
The only reason that anyone takes them seriously is because of their nuclear arsenal. If they didn't have that, the Ukrainian war would be over by now.

One does have to wonder how a few of their nuclear war heads have not self detonated...the things that make you go hhhmmmm.
 
johns624
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Thu Sep 08, 2022 7:41 pm

par13del wrote:
johns624 wrote:
rheinwaldner wrote:
For me the interesting part is how weak the Russians are and how ancient their methods are. They seem not to be able to execute any of the modern types of warfare.
The only reason that anyone takes them seriously is because of their nuclear arsenal. If they didn't have that, the Ukrainian war would be over by now.

One does have to wonder how a few of their nuclear war heads have not self detonated...the things that make you go hhhmmmm.
Maybe someone sold the plutonium?
 
mxaxai
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Thu Sep 08, 2022 10:40 pm

Eh, I wouldn't underestimate the Russian troops. They may not be able to dominate Ukraine in the manner US troops found success in Iraq but Ukraine is still suffering severe losses every day. Both killed and wounded. I hope that their recent counter-offensives are going well.
 
ThePointblank
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Thu Sep 08, 2022 11:19 pm

bikerthai wrote:
rheinwaldner wrote:
So what type of warfare are they able to accomplish?


There is a mantra in Western military phylosophy.

"You train how you fight. You fight how you train" or something similar.

That is the reason western forces participate in various excersise around the world simulating all aspect of combined arms. It cost lots of money to have these excersise which is worth while if your soldiers stick around and are experienced.

How much effort does the Russian put into their excersise? Does it involve more than just a glorified live fire event? It costs a lot of money to do such excersise. Money better spent on villas an yatchs. ;)



bt


The Russians don't have realistic war games.

The Soviets’ doctrine emphasized tight control. Everything had to go according to a timetable; nobody did anything on his own.

Everything the Soviets (and now the Russians) did was rehearsed. On their major maneuver ranges, you could see well-worn trails in the terrain where unit after unit had done the same thing over the same ground. If anything unexpected happened, or if any radical change was required by some unexpected actions, that would be very disruptive to them. Their training was very rote, very set-piece.

You do A, then B follows at a certain time, then C follows at a certain time, and so forth. There were no real opposing forces—or thinking enemy, in what the U.S. Army calls free-play exercises. You do anything to upset their timelines, it throws them off; the average Soviet (and now Russian) unit doesn't have the level of initiative to adjust their schedules in response to changing requirements on the battlefield.

If a Russian unit was half an hour ahead of schedule at a checkpoint, that unit sits there at the checkpoint until the prescribed time to proceed to the next checkpoint. If they were late, it throws everything off balance, and they will struggle to get back on track.

Therefore, the best way to disrupt a Soviet/Russian attack from happening is to to hit them early and hard and often while they were still getting themselves together and trying to organize their great numbers on limited terrain. All you have to do is add to the normal confusion, by hitting their command posts while they were dealing with the early disruptions. Since nobody would exercise initiative—they were not allowed to—without their command posts they’d be lost.

I mean, when you have what is called 'live-fire exercises' conducted in such a way that observers can comfortably watch in warm bleachers under cover behind glass, with warm, running water and everything like you are in a VIP box at a major sports stadium, I would not call that realistic exercises.
 
johns624
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Fri Sep 09, 2022 12:46 pm

mxaxai wrote:
Eh, I wouldn't underestimate the Russian troops. They may not be able to dominate Ukraine in the manner US troops found success in Iraq but Ukraine is still suffering severe losses every day. Both killed and wounded. I hope that their recent counter-offensives are going well.

The Russians are suffering at least as badly.
 
GDB
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Sun Sep 11, 2022 8:03 pm

Wreckage of the recently reported lost SU-34;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOtGUJs4cbI
 
777
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Mon Sep 12, 2022 8:48 am

@ rheinwaldner, flyingturtle, ThePointblank: I agree with you analysis.

I would add that there is only one think the Russian military are good at: firing cruise missiles from distance to Ukrainian cities, killing random civilians. In this the are really unbeatable...

For the rest, without the atomic bomb, they would be considered a below average Country from a military perspective.
 
Strato2
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Mon Sep 12, 2022 10:47 am

Russian SU-25 crashes on takeoff:

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/iGaqrpkXQak

Apparently happened in occupied Crimea.
 
GDB
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Mon Sep 12, 2022 12:09 pm

Strato2 wrote:
Russian SU-25 crashes on takeoff:

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/iGaqrpkXQak

Apparently happened in occupied Crimea.


And the wreckage of the one shot down,responsible system as yet unclear, on 7th Sept;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6_ux2g3z3A
(Total with that take off loss could be 21 SU-25's now)
 
GDB
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Mon Sep 12, 2022 3:31 pm

Correction, link to Crimea SU-25 crash after take off;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3EvTEvhpIs
 
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LyleLanley
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Mon Sep 12, 2022 5:05 pm

GDB wrote:
Correction, link to Crimea SU-25 crash after take off;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3EvTEvhpIs


Looks like a stall, not a wing slap. Rough way to go, but shouldn't have been there in the first place.

Interesting Russian BASH program, in the headless scarecrow flapping in the breeze.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Mon Sep 12, 2022 5:12 pm

LyleLanley wrote:

Looks like a stall, not a wing slap.


Angle of attack seems to be too low for a stall.

bt
 
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LyleLanley
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Mon Sep 12, 2022 5:28 pm

bikerthai wrote:
LyleLanley wrote:

Looks like a stall, not a wing slap.


Angle of attack seems to be too low for a stall.

bt


Pitch angle seems low, but watch what he's doing compared to lead: he pitches up sharply, then noses back down and within a few seconds of lead's turn is at 90 degrees bank. All of this right after takeoff in an underpowered SU-25.

Now look at lead's jet: he's rock solid the entire time while #2 is rocking and rolling like an idiot. If they clipped lead wouldn't be so steady.

Altitude, airspeed, brains. I think that dude ran out of all three.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Mon Sep 12, 2022 6:00 pm

Agree, don't look like the two planes touched. Saw the pitch up. Still not convinced it's a stall.

Now as it was making the left bank, I notices there is no more black smoke exhaust. Wonder if it has a flame out, or bird ingestion?

The zoomed in snap shot where the blogger suggests a broken tip seems to have a hot spot. Engine surge?

Just speculating.


bt
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Mon Sep 12, 2022 6:05 pm

Any possibility of a vortex, or ingesting lead aircraft exhaust?
 
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LyleLanley
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Mon Sep 12, 2022 6:41 pm

bikerthai wrote:
Agree, don't look like the two planes touched. Saw the pitch up. Still not convinced it's a stall.

Now as it was making the left bank, I notices there is no more black smoke exhaust. Wonder if it has a flame out, or bird ingestion?

The zoomed in snap shot where the blogger suggests a broken tip seems to have a hot spot. Engine surge?

Just speculating.


bt


Same. I don't think it was birds, though. And their engines might not smoke at mil power. Lead was smoking the entire time but he wouldn't be at mil so #2 could have smash to play with. The key thing is, for whatever reason, he got slow. If he'd hit birds, you'd expect a trained pilot would fly straight ahead assuming no obstacles, climb, clean up, etc. and troubleshoot. He stayed with lead, though. 75 degrees of bank requires 4 g's in a level turn, 90 requires 6. Immediately after takeoff in a heavy, thrust-limited jet, 100 feet off the ground.

Phosphorous' vortex idea is plausible, too. Something made him sharply pitch up just before the turn. Was it wake? Inexperience? Intoxication? If it was any air force except the Russian Air Force...
 
Vintage
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Mon Sep 12, 2022 8:29 pm

The second plane clearly didn't get into the exhaust stream of #1 but if you watch the exhaust trail of #2 you can see what has to be him passing through wake turbulence before the turn begins, at that point #2 gains about 15 feet of altitude: his smoke trail follows that path. However, after that point the #2 aircraft doesn't immediately show unusual attitude deviation, he keeps flying more or less straight and level for a couple of seconds, but his lateral distance from #1 appears to increase. At that point he probably tried to tighten his turn and pull a few more Gs and that's where he lost it.

So this was caused by wake turbulence, but only in that it disoriented the pilot.

That's my guess.

The root cause is attempting formation flying just above stall speed at low altitude.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Mon Sep 12, 2022 8:55 pm

Vintage wrote:
The root cause is attempting formation flying just above stall speed at low altitude.


I can see wake turbulence.

On commercial airliners though take off is at full thrust in case of engine out, so typically flap settings and speed should not be near stall, unless of course you get an engine out.

Being underpowered may explain it, but did those planes look loaded down with ordinance?

bt
 
Vintage
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Mon Sep 12, 2022 9:01 pm

bikerthai wrote:
Vintage wrote:
The root cause is attempting formation flying just above stall speed at low altitude.


I can see wake turbulence.

On commercial airliners though take off is at full thrust in case of engine out, so typically flap settings and speed should not be near stall, unless of course you get an engine out.

Being underpowered may explain it, but did those planes look loaded down with ordinance?

bt
#1 was flying at the edge of the performance envelope, #2 would have made it (barely) if he had exactly followed #1s flight path. But he was kicked out of that path by the wake turbulence and as a junior pilot he probably assumed that he would lose face if he kicked out of the path that #1 was flying. So he told his plane to do something it couldn't do.
 
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LyleLanley
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Mon Sep 12, 2022 9:40 pm

Vintage wrote:
#1 was flying at the edge of the performance envelope, #2 would have made it (barely) if he had exactly followed #1s flight path. But he was kicked out of that path by the wake turbulence and as a junior pilot he probably assumed that he would lose face if he kicked out of the path that #1 was flying. So he told his plane to do something it couldn't do.


How can you tell he was "flying at the edge of the performance envelope"? Formation takeoffs happen all the time. As do low transitions. They're not inherently dangerous so long as you keep your climb rate in the positive, which lead was doing just fine.

Lead was smooth and predictable, and his turn was shallow and non-aggressive. He looked to be abiding by his contract very nicely. This crash shouldn't have happened.
 
Vintage
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Mon Sep 12, 2022 9:53 pm

LyleLanley wrote:
How can you tell he was "flying at the edge of the performance envelope"?

I watched the video and saw what appeared to be a plane with a heavy loadout and presumably max fuel, begin a tight 90° turn before even reaching the end of the runway. That's max performance flying.

LyleLanley wrote:
This crash shouldn't have happened.

But it did.
Many people have killed themselves by trying to climb and turn shortly after liftoff.
 
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LyleLanley
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Mon Sep 12, 2022 10:28 pm

Vintage wrote:
LyleLanley wrote:
How can you tell he was "flying at the edge of the performance envelope"?

I watched the video and saw what appeared to be a plane with a heavy loadout and presumably max fuel, begin a tight 90° turn before even reaching the end of the runway. That's max performance flying.

LyleLanley wrote:
This crash shouldn't have happened.

But it did.
Many people have killed themselves by trying to climb and turn shortly after liftoff.


You wrote "#1 was flying at the edge of the performance envelope". Not #2.

I asked "How can you tell he (#1) was 'flying at the edge of the performance envelope'?" Not #2.

#1's takeoff was conservative and professional, barely cracking 20 degrees of bank. #1 was a smooth and stable platform for #2 to fly off of. #2 was not stable and pulled 90 degrees of bank (for some reason) while low and slow. All #2 had to do was fly off of lead and he'd be fine. In other words, this crash should not have happened.

So again, how was #1 "flying at the edge of the performance envelope"?
 
Vintage
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Mon Sep 12, 2022 10:34 pm

LyleLanley wrote:
Vintage wrote:
LyleLanley wrote:
How can you tell he was "flying at the edge of the performance envelope"?

I watched the video and saw what appeared to be a plane with a heavy loadout and presumably max fuel, begin a tight 90° turn before even reaching the end of the runway. That's max performance flying.

LyleLanley wrote:
This crash shouldn't have happened.

But it did.
Many people have killed themselves by trying to climb and turn shortly after liftoff.


You wrote "#1 was flying at the edge of the performance envelope". Not #2.

I asked "How can you tell he (#1) was 'flying at the edge of the performance envelope'?" Not #2.

#1's takeoff was conservative and professional, barely cracking 20 degrees of bank. #1 was a smooth and stable platform for #2 to fly off of. #2 was not stable and pulled 90 degrees of bank (for some reason) while low and slow. All #2 had to do was fly off of lead and he'd be fine. In other words, this crash should not have happened.

So again, how was #1 "flying at the edge of the performance envelope"?
No, I said that #1 was flying at the edge of its performance envelope. #2 tried to fly beyond its performance envelope.

There's no mystery of why this happened.
 
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LyleLanley
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Mon Sep 12, 2022 10:47 pm

Vintage wrote:
No, I said that #1 was flying at the edge of its performance envelope. #2 tried to fly beyond its performance envelope.

There's no mystery of why this happened.


...

Again... This is the 3rd time, by the way... Why do you think #1 was flying at the edge of its performance envelope???
 
Vintage
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Mon Sep 12, 2022 11:11 pm

Read post #1084 again.
 
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LyleLanley
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Mon Sep 12, 2022 11:27 pm

Vintage wrote:
Read post #1084 again.


...

So a very smooth, stable, shallow turn before the departure end meets your standard for "flying at the edge of the performance envelope"?

I'd better call up some of the local airlines by my house, too. Death traps!
 
Vintage
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Mon Sep 12, 2022 11:33 pm

LyleLanley wrote:
Vintage wrote:
Read post #1084 again.


...

So a very smooth, stable, shallow turn before the departure end meets your standard for "flying at the edge of the performance envelope"?

I'd better call up some of the local airlines by my house, too. Death traps!

Do you have a citation for your claim?
Can you show me a video of an airliner making a 90° turn before even reaching the end of the runway?
 
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LyleLanley
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Mon Sep 12, 2022 11:37 pm

90 degrees angle of bank ≠ 90 degrees of heading change. They're not the same thing.

Can you make sense of that?
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Tue Sep 13, 2022 12:02 am

Just a couple items.

It's a 2 engine plane, supposed to be an A-10 equivalent. Hard to imagine it would be under powered. But the inlet is kind of small, so maybe.

The second thought comes to mind is Top Gun, where TC went into a spin after crossing the wake turbulence.

As for edge of the envelope, you got to be crazy doing edge of the envelop at take off unless you are at an airshow.

I can can see a stall if the engine cut out.

But then maybe most simple theory is it suffered a mechanical wing failure due to improper battle damage repair.

Don't think we will ever get an adequate accident investigation report on this one.

bt
 
Vintage
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Tue Sep 13, 2022 12:10 am

bikerthai wrote:
spin after crossing the wake turbulence

You can see the wake turbulence effect at 39 seconds in this video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3EvTEvhpIs

Watch his exhaust trail. That was long before the stall.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Tue Sep 13, 2022 12:18 am

Vintage wrote:
bikerthai wrote:
spin after crossing the wake turbulence

You can see the wake turbulence effect at 39 seconds in this video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3EvTEvhpIs

Watch his exhaust trail. That was long before the stall.



Yeah I see how it popped up. But that by itself should not take down the plane unless it triggered something else. He seemed ro have enough speed not to approach stall.

bt
 
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LyleLanley
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Tue Sep 13, 2022 12:32 am

bikerthai wrote:
Yeah I see how it popped up. But that by itself should not take down the plane unless it triggered something else. He seemed ro have enough speed not to approach stall.

bt


The wake could've spooked him and bled some speed, then he went into the turn slower than he should've been and falling out of position. Icing on the cake is with the lift vector moving left because of the turn, stall speed increases by x1.4 at 60 degrees and x1.7 at 70 degrees.

Dude was toast.
 
Vintage
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Tue Sep 13, 2022 12:34 am

bikerthai wrote:
Vintage wrote:
bikerthai wrote:
spin after crossing the wake turbulence

You can see the wake turbulence effect at 39 seconds in this video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3EvTEvhpIs

Watch his exhaust trail. That was long before the stall.



Yeah I see how it popped up. But that by itself should not take down the plane unless it triggered something else. He seemed ro have enough speed not to approach stall.
bt
That prevented him from starting his turn to stay in formation with #1. So he found himself far to the outside of the turn, so he tightened it up to stay with #1 who was already pushing it to the limit.

Stall/spin
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Tue Sep 13, 2022 1:28 am

OK I see it now. If he bled speed because of the turbulence, and took the turn losing more speed and instead of hitting the thrust and straighten out to gain speed, he tried increasing lift thus triggering the stall. Or something like that.

bt
 
johns624
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Tue Sep 13, 2022 1:34 am

The important thing is the Russians have one fewer SU25.
 
Vintage
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Tue Sep 13, 2022 1:46 am

bikerthai wrote:
OK I see it now. If he bled speed because of the turbulence, and took the turn losing more speed and instead of hitting the thrust and straighten out to gain speed, he tried increasing lift thus triggering the stall.

I don't see why he would have lost any speed, I'm sure he didn't throttle back.
He just didn't start the turn soon enough.
 
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LyleLanley
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Military Aviation News and Discussion Thread

Tue Sep 13, 2022 2:13 am

bikerthai wrote:
OK I see it now. If he bled speed because of the turbulence, and took the turn losing more speed and instead of hitting the thrust and straighten out to gain speed, he tried increasing lift thus triggering the stall. Or something like that.

bt


Bingo! He lost a few knots or stayed the same speed (you can see the distance between lead and 2 increase) in the pitch up and then down. Then, not 4 seconds later he throws into a 70-80 degree bank turn to not get spit out. He's low, he's slow, and he's overloaded. If he'd stayed straight ahead or pulled lag instead of lead he would've been fine.

Accelerated stalls suck. You can defeat a manpad, but you can't defeat physics.

johns624 wrote:
The important thing is the Russians have one fewer SU25.


This! :bigthumbsup:

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