Just to clarify on the LCS, the mission package swapping is still perfectly possible, and in fact is routinely done as there are currently more ships than packages. But from a logistics standpoint, it could take more time to return to port for the swap, than to dispatch another ship with the package already installed. So the USN chose the latter.
Also with the ASW package, the original concept was that the LCS would disperse listening sonars on the bottom in shallow waters, then lie in wait and prosecute with the helicopters. In that way a large area could be covered by a few ships, and the ships wouldn't be close enough to engage with torpedos or depth charges. But the technology was too immature.
That gave way to a free-swimming undersea autonomous sonar vehicle, but again there were technology issues. That is really only becoming possible now.
So that evolved to an advanced variable depth towed array, which could serve also in a strike group as escort ASW. But the LCS seaframes were too light for the existing arrays, such as CAPTAS. Raytheon then developed the lightweight DART, but without the weight, there were hydrodynamic stability issues when towed at LCS speeds. Raytheon then began working on an active stability control system for DART, but USN pulled the plug on development, in favor of using CAPTAS on the heavier Constellation class frigates, which could handle the weight.
Originally DART was intended for both LCS and Constellation, so when development delays caused selection of CAPTAS for Constellation, that meant only 10 DARTs would ever be built. That wasn't enough quantity to justify continued development.
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Re: What would you have spent the B-2 money on?
The LCS propulsion issues were related to changing the combining gear from a Philadelphia gear, to a Renk gear, to save on weight and costs. The first two Freedoms used the Philadelphia and worked well. The later models had the Renk, which used ball bearings on their clutch shafts, that failed under high thrust loads produced by rapid power changes. The solution is to substitute pressure-lubed journal bearings with a dedicated thrust bearing surface. The larger problem is getting at the gear, as it's buried in the ship.
The Independence class doesn't have this problem, as it doesn't use combining gear to couple the engines. It uses 4 shafts to match 4 engines to 4 water jets, whereas the Freedom uses only 2 shafts for the same purpose.
The Independence class doesn't have this problem, as it doesn't use combining gear to couple the engines. It uses 4 shafts to match 4 engines to 4 water jets, whereas the Freedom uses only 2 shafts for the same purpose.
Re: What would you have spent the B-2 money on?
The LCS small crew size was by design, with the assumption that contractors would handle maintenance during port availabilities. The dual crew would swap out as is done on submarines, as they would have similarly high training and workloads.
The contractor idea was a failure, they ended up flying contractors and parts to the ships, which was very expensive. So they have dropped that component, the crews will go from 50 dual crew to 75 single crew, will perform maintenance, and the ships will be stocked with parts. Ships may also temporarily share repair teams. That has already driven down costs substantially.
The contractor idea was a failure, they ended up flying contractors and parts to the ships, which was very expensive. So they have dropped that component, the crews will go from 50 dual crew to 75 single crew, will perform maintenance, and the ships will be stocked with parts. Ships may also temporarily share repair teams. That has already driven down costs substantially.
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- LyleLanley
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Re: What would you have spent the B-2 money on?
So what's the difference in operating costs between the different LCS and Arleigh Burkes? Is the time spent in-dock comparable?
Re: What would you have spent the B-2 money on?
LyleLanley wrote:So what's the difference in operating costs between the different LCS and Arleigh Burkes? Is the time spent in-dock comparable?
It's hard to compare the two classes because they have very different design endurances. The LCS is well below the Burke, so it will necessarily return to port more often.
The unfavorable sustainment cost comparison was based on the contractor model, which was altered when the LCS sustainment program was transfered to NAVSEA in October 2021. I've not seen new figures since then, but there has been reporting that LCS crew are now undertaking substantial maintenance and repair tasks.
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- LyleLanley
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Re: What would you have spent the B-2 money on?
Avatar2go wrote:LyleLanley wrote:So what's the difference in operating costs between the different LCS and Arleigh Burkes? Is the time spent in-dock comparable?
It's hard to compare the two classes because they have very different design endurances. The LCS is well below the Burke, so it will necessarily return to port more often.
The unfavorable sustainment cost comparison was based on the contractor model, which was altered when the LCS sustainment program was transfered to NAVSEA in October 2021. I've not seen new figures since then, but there has been reporting that LCS crew are now undertaking substantial maintenance and repair tasks.
Sorry, by in-dock I meant undergoing maintenance. Essentially: is it a clunker compared to the Burke?
Re: What would you have spent the B-2 money on?
I have no specific comparison data on that. But in general, USN practice is to have rotation with a third forward deployed, a third deployed in their home fleet, and a third in maintenance availabilities and/or following sea trials.
If you look at the LCS deployment history, the Independence class has more or less followed that pattern. The Freedom class has lacked forward deployments until this year, due to the propulsion problems, which made USN reluctant to deploy far away from repair facilities. But they still deployed to Latin America regularly, apart from downtime to repair propulsion issues.
Two exceptions to that were Freedom-class LCS-7 Detroit and LCS-9 Little Rock, which both had more extensive propulsion damage than just the combining gear. They were tied up for more than a year as the USN asked to retire them. But after the refusal, they have been at least partially repaired and have emerged again.
If you look at the LCS deployment history, the Independence class has more or less followed that pattern. The Freedom class has lacked forward deployments until this year, due to the propulsion problems, which made USN reluctant to deploy far away from repair facilities. But they still deployed to Latin America regularly, apart from downtime to repair propulsion issues.
Two exceptions to that were Freedom-class LCS-7 Detroit and LCS-9 Little Rock, which both had more extensive propulsion damage than just the combining gear. They were tied up for more than a year as the USN asked to retire them. But after the refusal, they have been at least partially repaired and have emerged again.
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- JayinKitsap
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Re: What would you have spent the B-2 money on?
Congress is considering adding more Arleigh Burke's. Similarly, in subs they are keeping 2 Virginias a year and 1 D5 boat each year, up from just 2 subs a year of previous. The Navy is happy with the Burke class, not happy with the LCS, and wants to see the Constitution in service before ramping that one up. So more destroyers NOW
https://news.usni.org/2022/05/12/congre ... ips-a-year
AUSTAL is adding steel ships to the yard besides for its current aluminum. The DOD has been investing a lot in its own shipyards and private shipyards. AUSTAL got $50M from DOD for its $100M project to add steel capability.
https://www.al.com/news/mobile/2022/05/ ... sport.html
https://www.maritime-executive.com/corp ... a-facility
The deal would authorize a 10-ship multi-year deal with options to buy five additional Flight III Arleigh Burke-class destroyers from Fiscal Year 2023 to 2027. The work would be split between General Dynamics Bath Iron Works in Maine and HII’s Ingalls Shipbuilding in Mississippi.
If approved by Congress, the multiyear contract would extend the DDG-51 line to 104 hulls through DDG-153.
https://news.usni.org/2022/05/12/congre ... ips-a-year
AUSTAL is adding steel ships to the yard besides for its current aluminum. The DOD has been investing a lot in its own shipyards and private shipyards. AUSTAL got $50M from DOD for its $100M project to add steel capability.
https://www.al.com/news/mobile/2022/05/ ... sport.html
https://www.maritime-executive.com/corp ... a-facility
Re: What would you have spent the B-2 money on?
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