Page 1 of 1

Chinese aerospace experts slam NASA's chief for 'ridiculous and outrageous' allegations of 'stealing' technology

Posted: Sat May 21, 2022 7:13 pm
by pune
Just saw this -

https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202205/1266116.shtml

It feels whiny what the NASA gentleman said. Even if we take his statement at face value that doesn't tell why the U.S. isn't looking at a better lunar base or whatever. Instead of blaming China, it would have been far better to share what NASA will be doing.

What sadly was not discussed is that NASA has been defunded right after the U.S. won the space race.

https://www.eclipseaviation.com/why-was-nasa-defunded/

The current POTUS, to his credit has requested more funding for NASA. Let's see what happens.

Re: Chinese aerospace experts slam NASA's chief for 'ridiculous and outrageous' allegations of 'stealing' technology

Posted: Sat May 21, 2022 7:27 pm
by Avatar2go
This is mostly political rhetoric. Chinese technological espionage is well documented. The US wants to cooperate but is wary of the theft of IP. So the two have not been able to agree.

That doesn't mean that the Chinese have not made great progress on their own, or will not continue to do so. But the US will not cede their technological edge, so the two are destined to compete in the future.

Re: Chinese aerospace experts slam NASA's chief for 'ridiculous and outrageous' allegations of 'stealing' technology

Posted: Sat May 21, 2022 7:33 pm
by IADFCO
It goes without saying that the Global Times reflects 100% the views of the Chinese Communist Party.

I don't know whether China steals technology (although I have a pretty good idea). However, I'm familiar with the technical literature in flight control systems, and I still have to see a landmark Chinese contribution. Some of their papers are good, some are very good, but never have I felt "wow, they finally cracked problem X that we have been trying to solve for years". Maybe they have, but are not telling, who knows.

Space may be a different story, I don't know, it's not my area.

Re: Chinese aerospace experts slam NASA's chief for 'ridiculous and outrageous' allegations of 'stealing' technology

Posted: Sun May 22, 2022 2:38 pm
by ReverseFlow
I remember reading about or seeing a Youtube video with Elon Musk who said that SpaceX don't publish patents.
The reasoning behind this was that their biggest 'rival' was a state sponsored space program who doesn't care for patents. And especially if they use them militarily you wouldn't find out.

Re: Chinese aerospace experts slam NASA's chief for 'ridiculous and outrageous' allegations of 'stealing' technology

Posted: Sun May 22, 2022 3:24 pm
by Avatar2go
ReverseFlow wrote:
I remember reading about or seeing a Youtube video with Elon Musk who said that SpaceX don't publish patents.
The reasoning behind this was that their biggest 'rival' was a state sponsored space program who doesn't care for patents. And especially if they use them militarily you wouldn't find out.


Other reasons are the expense of researching earlier patents, the limited protection they offer (China, for example, does not respect Western patent law), and the cost of litigation for infringement. Elon's view is that continuous innovation is a better protection overall.

Re: Chinese aerospace experts slam NASA's chief for 'ridiculous and outrageous' allegations of 'stealing' technology

Posted: Sun May 22, 2022 3:41 pm
by texl1649
Avatar2go wrote:
ReverseFlow wrote:
I remember reading about or seeing a Youtube video with Elon Musk who said that SpaceX don't publish patents.
The reasoning behind this was that their biggest 'rival' was a state sponsored space program who doesn't care for patents. And especially if they use them militarily you wouldn't find out.


Other reasons are the expense of researching earlier patents, the limited protection they offer (China, for example, does not respect Western patent law), and the cost of litigation for infringement. Elon's view is that continuous innovation is a better protection overall.


That substantively changed a few years ago.

https://insights.greyb.com/spacex-patents/

Remember, a patent is in essence a (temporary or 20 year or so) ‘right to exclude’ others in exchange for public disclosure of the device/technology/method. Some things, if no one else gets to touch it/see how it really works (like the Raptor V2 engines only SpaceX is using themselves), might make sense not to reveal publicly to the Chinese, but I think over time SpaceX’ team has realized they need legal protections not just from the Chinese who will steal anything anyway, but other competitors.

Re: Chinese aerospace experts slam NASA's chief for 'ridiculous and outrageous' allegations of 'stealing' technology

Posted: Sun May 22, 2022 8:49 pm
by ReverseFlow
texl1649 wrote:
Avatar2go wrote:
ReverseFlow wrote:
I remember reading about or seeing a Youtube video with Elon Musk who said that SpaceX don't publish patents.
The reasoning behind this was that their biggest 'rival' was a state sponsored space program who doesn't care for patents. And especially if they use them militarily you wouldn't find out.


Other reasons are the expense of researching earlier patents, the limited protection they offer (China, for example, does not respect Western patent law), and the cost of litigation for infringement. Elon's view is that continuous innovation is a better protection overall.


That substantively changed a few years ago.

https://insights.greyb.com/spacex-patents/

Remember, a patent is in essence a (temporary or 20 year or so) ‘right to exclude’ others in exchange for public disclosure of the device/technology/method. Some things, if no one else gets to touch it/see how it really works (like the Raptor V2 engines only SpaceX is using themselves), might make sense not to reveal publicly to the Chinese, but I think over time SpaceX’ team has realized they need legal protections not just from the Chinese who will steal anything anyway, but other competitors.
Ah thanks. But the last sentence says:

"Thus, so far SpaceX is not filing patents for its core technology"
So they are obviously still trying to keep some info away from the competition and especially Chinese.

Re: Chinese aerospace experts slam NASA's chief for 'ridiculous and outrageous' allegations of 'stealing' technology

Posted: Mon May 23, 2022 12:28 am
by AngMoh
texl1649 wrote:
Avatar2go wrote:
ReverseFlow wrote:
I remember reading about or seeing a Youtube video with Elon Musk who said that SpaceX don't publish patents.
The reasoning behind this was that their biggest 'rival' was a state sponsored space program who doesn't care for patents. And especially if they use them militarily you wouldn't find out.


Other reasons are the expense of researching earlier patents, the limited protection they offer (China, for example, does not respect Western patent law), and the cost of litigation for infringement. Elon's view is that continuous innovation is a better protection overall.


That substantively changed a few years ago.

https://insights.greyb.com/spacex-patents/

Remember, a patent is in essence a (temporary or 20 year or so) ‘right to exclude’ others in exchange for public disclosure of the device/technology/method. Some things, if no one else gets to touch it/see how it really works (like the Raptor V2 engines only SpaceX is using themselves), might make sense not to reveal publicly to the Chinese, but I think over time SpaceX’ team has realized they need legal protections not just from the Chinese who will steal anything anyway, but other competitors.


A patent is only valid for the country it is filed in. The exception is the EU where there is a EU wide patenting system. A US patent is only valid in the US. If the same patent has not been filed in other countries, it is not protected in the other countries. So if you file a patent in the US and nowhere else, then you are free to use that patent in sales in Australia for example.

A well written patent protects a lot, stops competition and does not tell a competitor anything about your product. GE for example, is very good in that. A poorly written patent tells too much, and not only explains how it is implemented but enables competitors to bypass a patent.

We used to file patents in the US, EU, China and Australia as they were the biggest markets. We also has a line of products which infringed on a GE patent, but that patent was only valid in the US. That product was sold everywhere in the world except the US, where we sold an older system. Later, we developed a newer line of products that no longer infringed on the GE patent and that one became the default product worldwide.

So Space-X can file all they want in the US, it does not give any protection whatsoever in China. It only protects against Jeff Bezos.

Re: Chinese aerospace experts slam NASA's chief for 'ridiculous and outrageous' allegations of 'stealing' technology

Posted: Mon May 23, 2022 2:33 am
by Avatar2go
AngMoh wrote:
texl1649 wrote:
Avatar2go wrote:

Other reasons are the expense of researching earlier patents, the limited protection they offer (China, for example, does not respect Western patent law), and the cost of litigation for infringement. Elon's view is that continuous innovation is a better protection overall.


That substantively changed a few years ago.

https://insights.greyb.com/spacex-patents/

Remember, a patent is in essence a (temporary or 20 year or so) ‘right to exclude’ others in exchange for public disclosure of the device/technology/method. Some things, if no one else gets to touch it/see how it really works (like the Raptor V2 engines only SpaceX is using themselves), might make sense not to reveal publicly to the Chinese, but I think over time SpaceX’ team has realized they need legal protections not just from the Chinese who will steal anything anyway, but other competitors.


A patent is only valid for the country it is filed in. The exception is the EU where there is a EU wide patenting system. A US patent is only valid in the US. If the same patent has not been filed in other countries, it is not protected in the other countries. So if you file a patent in the US and nowhere else, then you are free to use that patent in sales in Australia for example.

A well written patent protects a lot, stops competition and does not tell a competitor anything about your product. GE for example, is very good in that. A poorly written patent tells too much, and not only explains how it is implemented but enables competitors to bypass a patent.

We used to file patents in the US, EU, China and Australia as they were the biggest markets. We also has a line of products which infringed on a GE patent, but that patent was only valid in the US. That product was sold everywhere in the world except the US, where we sold an older system. Later, we developed a newer line of products that no longer infringed on the GE patent and that one became the default product worldwide.

So Space-X can file all they want in the US, it does not give any protection whatsoever in China. It only protects against Jeff Bezos.


I think the issue is that China does not fairly enforce (respect) the law when it comes to infringement by domestic companies. Infringement goes on fairly freely without consequence, even when the patents are filed in China.

https://www.iam-media.com/litigation/wh ... y-in-china

Re: Chinese aerospace experts slam NASA's chief for 'ridiculous and outrageous' allegations of 'stealing' technology

Posted: Mon May 23, 2022 10:59 am
by texl1649
AngMoh wrote:
texl1649 wrote:
Avatar2go wrote:

Other reasons are the expense of researching earlier patents, the limited protection they offer (China, for example, does not respect Western patent law), and the cost of litigation for infringement. Elon's view is that continuous innovation is a better protection overall.


That substantively changed a few years ago.

https://insights.greyb.com/spacex-patents/

Remember, a patent is in essence a (temporary or 20 year or so) ‘right to exclude’ others in exchange for public disclosure of the device/technology/method. Some things, if no one else gets to touch it/see how it really works (like the Raptor V2 engines only SpaceX is using themselves), might make sense not to reveal publicly to the Chinese, but I think over time SpaceX’ team has realized they need legal protections not just from the Chinese who will steal anything anyway, but other competitors.


A patent is only valid for the country it is filed in. The exception is the EU where there is a EU wide patenting system. A US patent is only valid in the US. If the same patent has not been filed in other countries, it is not protected in the other countries. So if you file a patent in the US and nowhere else, then you are free to use that patent in sales in Australia for example.

A well written patent protects a lot, stops competition and does not tell a competitor anything about your product. GE for example, is very good in that. A poorly written patent tells too much, and not only explains how it is implemented but enables competitors to bypass a patent.

We used to file patents in the US, EU, China and Australia as they were the biggest markets. We also has a line of products which infringed on a GE patent, but that patent was only valid in the US. That product was sold everywhere in the world except the US, where we sold an older system. Later, we developed a newer line of products that no longer infringed on the GE patent and that one became the default product worldwide.

So Space-X can file all they want in the US, it does not give any protection whatsoever in China. It only protects against Jeff Bezos.


The patent cooperation treaty really changed how the calculus about where to file comes out for a lot of companies/products. PCT member countries mean you can file in the US and get the EU/much of Asia protection referenced.