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pusserchef
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Chinese J-16 cut across RAAF P-8A Poseidon

Mon Jun 06, 2022 3:19 am

I read a short time ago that on the 26th May, a PLAAF J-16 flew close to and in front of a RAAF P-8A Poseidon, whilst in close proximity ahead of the P-8 the J-16 set off some chaff of which was ingested in one of the P-8 engines. The Poseidon returned to base without further incident.
This occurred in international waters in the South China Sea.


Article form the Australian Aviation online;

https://australianaviation.com.au/2022/ ... 1dcda4cfbd
 
Avatar2go
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Re: Chinese J-16 cut across RAAF P-8A Poseidon

Mon Jun 06, 2022 6:56 am

Not just the Aussies, but the Canucks as well as the US. Several confrontations in the last month . I suspect that's why the US Defense Secretary is meeting with the Chinese Defense Minister this week, in an attempt to ramp things down again. Neither side is going to back off, but the Chinese need to follow the international rules for safe conduct.
 
sierrakilo44
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Re: Chinese J-16 cut across RAAF P-8A Poseidon

Mon Jun 06, 2022 7:24 am

Avatar2go wrote:
but the Chinese need to follow the international rules for safe conduct.


We may have international rules for safe conduct, but I wonder what the reaction of the US would be if a nuclear armed Chinese carrier battle groups and air wings carried out "freedom of navigation" exercises in the Gulf of Mexico, or sailed a fleet in the Florida Straits?

With China increasing their blue water navy they may have to deal with a reaction like that soon.
 
GDB
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Re: Chinese J-16 cut across RAAF P-8A Poseidon

Mon Jun 06, 2022 7:47 am

sierrakilo44 wrote:
Avatar2go wrote:
but the Chinese need to follow the international rules for safe conduct.


We may have international rules for safe conduct, but I wonder what the reaction of the US would be if a nuclear armed Chinese carrier battle groups and air wings carried out "freedom of navigation" exercises in the Gulf of Mexico, or sailed a fleet in the Florida Straits?

With China increasing their blue water navy they may have to deal with a reaction like that soon.


Not to be a pedant but the USN removed routine deployment of nuclear weapons on board carriers post Cold War, in theory F-18’s and now F-35’s can in carry them but they are not deployed on board as they operate around the world.
The nuclear armed Cruise Missiles and nuke tipped Subroc are long gone.

It’s nations in the Pacific region who are worrying about the Chinese navy and the ambitions of a nation which can slaughter 1000’s of unarmed protesters in the Capital City and operate ‘re-education’ camps for minorities.
 
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keesje
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Re: Chinese J-16 cut across RAAF P-8A Poseidon

Mon Jun 06, 2022 10:30 am

Cold war games & communications. Now and than it leaks through what "we" did/ do.

The P8 "was undertaking “routine maritime surveillance activity” in international airspace in the South China Sea region."

Can we get some further detail on what it was exactly doing there, why & how? Probably not. Maybe via Chinese media..
 
hk144
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Re: Chinese J-16 cut across RAAF P-8A Poseidon

Mon Jun 06, 2022 11:14 am

keesje wrote:
Cold war games & communications. Now and than it leaks through what "we" did/ do.

The P8 "was undertaking “routine maritime surveillance activity” in international airspace in the South China Sea region."

Can we get some further detail on what it was exactly doing there, why & how? Probably not. Maybe via Chinese media..



The RAAF have been operating in the South China Sea as part of Operation Gateway for well over 20 years. Nothing new re the RAAF operating in the area.
 
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cjg225
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Re: Chinese J-16 cut across RAAF P-8A Poseidon

Mon Jun 06, 2022 11:23 am

keesje wrote:
Maybe via Chinese media..

I'm not entirely sure whether you're being serious.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Chinese J-16 cut across RAAF P-8A Poseidon

Mon Jun 06, 2022 11:27 am

Chaff in the engine? Question is whether it is a deliberate attempt to bring "accidentally" bring down a P-8A to obtain sensitive information similar to the P-3 incident a few years back?

Or it could be just another hot shot pilot playing games?

Either way, Australia should send a bill to the Chinese embassy the inspection time and any repair needed on the engines.

bt
 
bajs11
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Re: Chinese J-16 cut across RAAF P-8A Poseidon

Mon Jun 06, 2022 12:02 pm


We may have international rules for safe conduct, but I wonder what the reaction of the US would be if a nuclear armed Chinese carrier battle groups and air wings carried out "freedom of navigation" exercises in the Gulf of Mexico, or sailed a fleet in the Florida Straits?

At least the US of A doesn't claim every single island in the Caribbean as part of their territory.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territori ... _China_Sea

Then again the West should blame themselves for have created this new empire which may be as hostile and ambitious as the Empire of Japan.
It will be even more interesting to see what current and future NATO members will do about the PRC.
For example Volvo Cars is owned by the Geely Holding Group of the PRC and it will be extremely interesting to see what the government of Sweden will do if the PRC and the US declare war on each other over Taiwan.


cjg225 wrote:
keesje wrote:
Maybe via Chinese media..

I'm not entirely sure whether you're being serious.


I know some individuals have been posting anti-Western propaganda in this forum since before the 50 cent party and the Internet Research Agency / Glavset even existed.
Last edited by bajs11 on Mon Jun 06, 2022 12:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Chinese J-16 cut across RAAF P-8A Poseidon

Mon Jun 06, 2022 12:06 pm

The P-8 in question flew again on June 3rd. So either there was minimal damage or they flew in one or two spare engines

https://www.australiandefence.com.au/ne ... -raaf-p-8a
bt
 
Avatar2go
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Re: Chinese J-16 cut across RAAF P-8A Poseidon

Mon Jun 06, 2022 12:21 pm

sierrakilo44 wrote:
Avatar2go wrote:
but the Chinese need to follow the international rules for safe conduct.


We may have international rules for safe conduct, but I wonder what the reaction of the US would be if a nuclear armed Chinese carrier battle groups and air wings carried out "freedom of navigation" exercises in the Gulf of Mexico, or sailed a fleet in the Florida Straits?

With China increasing their blue water navy they may have to deal with a reaction like that soon.


Actually both Russia and China have conducted exercises around Hawaii, Cuba, and Latin America. It's not viewed as a problem, as the US makes no claims in international waters, as the Chinese do. Hence there is a need for the Western allies to conduct regular operations in international waters claimed by China, to keep them open to all nations
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Chinese J-16 cut across RAAF P-8A Poseidon

Mon Jun 06, 2022 12:40 pm

sierrakilo44 wrote:
Avatar2go wrote:
but the Chinese need to follow the international rules for safe conduct.


We may have international rules for safe conduct, but I wonder what the reaction of the US would be if a nuclear armed Chinese carrier battle groups and air wings carried out "freedom of navigation" exercises in the Gulf of Mexico, or sailed a fleet in the Florida Straits?

With China increasing their blue water navy they may have to deal with a reaction like that soon.


It’s just Australia being provocative, they have to overfly Indonesia, Malaysia, Borneo and Philippines depending on which part of the South China Sea they are patrolling. I bet they would be up in arms if China decided to patrol the Arafura or Timor seas.
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Chinese J-16 cut across RAAF P-8A Poseidon

Mon Jun 06, 2022 12:45 pm

bajs11 wrote:

We may have international rules for safe conduct, but I wonder what the reaction of the US would be if a nuclear armed Chinese carrier battle groups and air wings carried out "freedom of navigation" exercises in the Gulf of Mexico, or sailed a fleet in the Florida Straits?

At least the US of A doesn't claim every single island in the Caribbean as part of their territory.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territori ... _China_Sea

Then again the West should blame themselves for have created this new empire which may be as hostile and ambitious as the Empire of Japan.
It will be even more interesting to see what current and future NATO members will do about the PRC.
For example Volvo Cars is owned by the Geely Holding Group of the PRC and it will be extremely interesting to see what the government of Sweden will do if the PRC and the US declare war on each other over Taiwan.


cjg225 wrote:
keesje wrote:
Maybe via Chinese media..

I'm not entirely sure whether you're being serious.


I know some individuals have been posting anti-Western propaganda in this forum since before the 50 cent party and the Internet Research Agency / Glavset even existed.


Since when is the Pacific part of the remit for NATO, it’s in the title North Atlantic. If/when the US provokes a war with China why should European members of NATO get involved?

Chinese investors also own nearly 20% of Mercedes Benz, they bought Kuka who make industrial robots, Pirelli Tires, the list goes on and on.
 
LTEN11
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Re: Chinese J-16 cut across RAAF P-8A Poseidon

Mon Jun 06, 2022 12:58 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
sierrakilo44 wrote:
Avatar2go wrote:
but the Chinese need to follow the international rules for safe conduct.


We may have international rules for safe conduct, but I wonder what the reaction of the US would be if a nuclear armed Chinese carrier battle groups and air wings carried out "freedom of navigation" exercises in the Gulf of Mexico, or sailed a fleet in the Florida Straits?

With China increasing their blue water navy they may have to deal with a reaction like that soon.


It’s just Australia being provocative, they have to overfly Indonesia, Malaysia, Borneo and Philippines depending on which part of the South China Sea they are patrolling. I bet they would be up in arms if China decided to patrol the Arafura or Timor seas.


If you'd bothered to read the link provided in Reply 10, you would've noticed that the aircraft actually operated out of the Philippines. As has been previously mentioned, the R.A.A.F. has operated patrols in the South China Sea for over 20 years, the countries you mentioned are well aware of the flights and would be getting intelligence from these flights.
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Chinese J-16 cut across RAAF P-8A Poseidon

Mon Jun 06, 2022 1:09 pm

LTEN11 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
sierrakilo44 wrote:

We may have international rules for safe conduct, but I wonder what the reaction of the US would be if a nuclear armed Chinese carrier battle groups and air wings carried out "freedom of navigation" exercises in the Gulf of Mexico, or sailed a fleet in the Florida Straits?

With China increasing their blue water navy they may have to deal with a reaction like that soon.


It’s just Australia being provocative, they have to overfly Indonesia, Malaysia, Borneo and Philippines depending on which part of the South China Sea they are patrolling. I bet they would be up in arms if China decided to patrol the Arafura or Timor seas.


If you'd bothered to read the link provided in Reply 10, you would've noticed that the aircraft actually operated out of the Philippines. As has been previously mentioned, the R.A.A.F. has operated patrols in the South China Sea for over 20 years, the countries you mentioned are well aware of the flights and would be getting intelligence from these flights.


Read it but again why does Australia need to do this? What would happen if the Chinese based aircraft in the Solomon Islands and started patrolling the Tasman and the seas to the North of Australia? You know Australia would have a fit.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Chinese J-16 cut across RAAF P-8A Poseidon

Mon Jun 06, 2022 1:11 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Since when is the Pacific part of the remit for NATO, it’s in the title North Atlantic. If/when the US provokes a war with China why should European members of NATO get involved?


Chances are NATO would not be involved.

Belligerent would be US, Japan and Austrailia and by extension most probably the UK and Canada. As part of the Commonwelth I would suspect NZ as well. But you may have a better feel.

If the war start after 2025, there there may be a good chance Ukraine would offer troop as a token payback for all the support they are getting now.

bt
 
Avatar2go
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Re: Chinese J-16 cut across RAAF P-8A Poseidon

Mon Jun 06, 2022 1:25 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
LTEN11 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

It’s just Australia being provocative, they have to overfly Indonesia, Malaysia, Borneo and Philippines depending on which part of the South China Sea they are patrolling. I bet they would be up in arms if China decided to patrol the Arafura or Timor seas.


If you'd bothered to read the link provided in Reply 10, you would've noticed that the aircraft actually operated out of the Philippines. As has been previously mentioned, the R.A.A.F. has operated patrols in the South China Sea for over 20 years, the countries you mentioned are well aware of the flights and would be getting intelligence from these flights.


Read it but again why does Australia need to do this? What would happen if the Chinese based aircraft in the Solomon Islands and started patrolling the Tasman and the seas to the North of Australia? You know Australia would have a fit.


As mentioned by a few commenters, the reason is to maintain open international navigation in waters that China has claimed, in contravention to UNCLOS.

Australia has negotiated treaties with its neighbors to establish maritime jurisdictions, that are not disputed. Moreover they respect UNCLOS, the right of innocent passage, and other international codes of conduct. China could exercise that right if they chose, but they have no need to do so because there is no dispute.
 
LTEN11
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Re: Chinese J-16 cut across RAAF P-8A Poseidon

Mon Jun 06, 2022 1:40 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
LTEN11 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

It’s just Australia being provocative, they have to overfly Indonesia, Malaysia, Borneo and Philippines depending on which part of the South China Sea they are patrolling. I bet they would be up in arms if China decided to patrol the Arafura or Timor seas.


If you'd bothered to read the link provided in Reply 10, you would've noticed that the aircraft actually operated out of the Philippines. As has been previously mentioned, the R.A.A.F. has operated patrols in the South China Sea for over 20 years, the countries you mentioned are well aware of the flights and would be getting intelligence from these flights.


Read it but again why does Australia need to do this? What would happen if the Chinese based aircraft in the Solomon Islands and started patrolling the Tasman and the seas to the North of Australia? You know Australia would have a fit.


Most likely it is part of an agreement to help out countries which border the South China Sea and don't have access to suitable equipment to do the patrolling. China is the one making the ridiculous claims of sovereignty in the area, if that hadn't occurred and the construction of bases hadn't taken place, these flights wouldn't be necessary. These aircraft and ships that pass through the area have every right to be there, as long as they have received transiting rights from the respective governments when passing through territorial waters or skies, Beijing isn't included in those discussions as they have no rights to the area they claim.

There are already Chinese naval vessels off Australian coastlines a lot of the time, as long as they stay in international waters they are welcome to stay. Doesn't mean they're not monitored, but there is nothing to stop them from being there. You're analogy breaks down, because Australia doesn't claim the Solomon Islands, or Vanuatu, Fiji, New Caledonia, Samoa, Tonga, etc, not like the way China claims sovereignty over the South China Sea, which nobody recognises. If the Solomon's let's China base aircraft there, that's their prerogative, of cause Australia won't like it, but there wouldn't be a lot Australia could do about it. Don't think the neighbors of the Solomon Islands would be letting Chinese aircraft into their skies though, still they could fly around the Solomon's till their hearts are content.
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Chinese J-16 cut across RAAF P-8A Poseidon

Mon Jun 06, 2022 2:08 pm

LTEN11 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
LTEN11 wrote:

If you'd bothered to read the link provided in Reply 10, you would've noticed that the aircraft actually operated out of the Philippines. As has been previously mentioned, the R.A.A.F. has operated patrols in the South China Sea for over 20 years, the countries you mentioned are well aware of the flights and would be getting intelligence from these flights.


Read it but again why does Australia need to do this? What would happen if the Chinese based aircraft in the Solomon Islands and started patrolling the Tasman and the seas to the North of Australia? You know Australia would have a fit.


Most likely it is part of an agreement to help out countries which border the South China Sea and don't have access to suitable equipment to do the patrolling. China is the one making the ridiculous claims of sovereignty in the area, if that hadn't occurred and the construction of bases hadn't taken place, these flights wouldn't be necessary. These aircraft and ships that pass through the area have every right to be there, as long as they have received transiting rights from the respective governments when passing through territorial waters or skies, Beijing isn't included in those discussions as they have no rights to the area they claim.

There are already Chinese naval vessels off Australian coastlines a lot of the time, as long as they stay in international waters they are welcome to stay. Doesn't mean they're not monitored, but there is nothing to stop them from being there. You're analogy breaks down, because Australia doesn't claim the Solomon Islands, or Vanuatu, Fiji, New Caledonia, Samoa, Tonga, etc, not like the way China claims sovereignty over the South China Sea, which nobody recognises. If the Solomon's let's China base aircraft there, that's their prerogative, of cause Australia won't like it, but there wouldn't be a lot Australia could do about it. Don't think the neighbors of the Solomon Islands would be letting Chinese aircraft into their skies though, still they could fly around the Solomon's till their hearts are content.


So why was the not even in they job 1 week Australian foreign minister racing around the pacific sucking up to the Polynesians hot on the tail of the Chinese foreign minister? The problem is Australia has taken Polynesian support for granted without giving them much love in return. Now you’re panicking.
 
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par13del
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Re: Chinese J-16 cut across RAAF P-8A Poseidon

Mon Jun 06, 2022 6:22 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
LTEN11 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

Read it but again why does Australia need to do this? What would happen if the Chinese based aircraft in the Solomon Islands and started patrolling the Tasman and the seas to the North of Australia? You know Australia would have a fit.


Most likely it is part of an agreement to help out countries which border the South China Sea and don't have access to suitable equipment to do the patrolling. China is the one making the ridiculous claims of sovereignty in the area, if that hadn't occurred and the construction of bases hadn't taken place, these flights wouldn't be necessary. These aircraft and ships that pass through the area have every right to be there, as long as they have received transiting rights from the respective governments when passing through territorial waters or skies, Beijing isn't included in those discussions as they have no rights to the area they claim.

There are already Chinese naval vessels off Australian coastlines a lot of the time, as long as they stay in international waters they are welcome to stay. Doesn't mean they're not monitored, but there is nothing to stop them from being there. You're analogy breaks down, because Australia doesn't claim the Solomon Islands, or Vanuatu, Fiji, New Caledonia, Samoa, Tonga, etc, not like the way China claims sovereignty over the South China Sea, which nobody recognises. If the Solomon's let's China base aircraft there, that's their prerogative, of cause Australia won't like it, but there wouldn't be a lot Australia could do about it. Don't think the neighbors of the Solomon Islands would be letting Chinese aircraft into their skies though, still they could fly around the Solomon's till their hearts are content.


So why was the not even in they job 1 week Australian foreign minister racing around the pacific sucking up to the Polynesians hot on the tail of the Chinese foreign minister? The problem is Australia has taken Polynesian support for granted without giving them much love in return. Now you’re panicking.

So now that you have moved on from why Australia a/c was patrolling, do we assume you accept their right to patrol?
 
stratable
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Re: Chinese J-16 cut across RAAF P-8A Poseidon

Mon Jun 06, 2022 6:36 pm

bikerthai wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Since when is the Pacific part of the remit for NATO, it’s in the title North Atlantic. If/when the US provokes a war with China why should European members of NATO get involved?


Chances are NATO would not be involved.

Belligerent would be US, Japan and Austrailia and by extension most probably the UK and Canada. As part of the Commonwelth I would suspect NZ as well. But you may have a better feel.

If the war start after 2025, there there may be a good chance Ukraine would offer troop as a token payback for all the support they are getting now.

bt


I wouldn't be so sure about this. European nations are ramping up military visits to the South China Sea. And I would expect NATO nations to be involved. In the present time, I don't think NATO is limited to European defense only. If the US ever got attacked, or any other NATO country for that matter, I am sure European NATO nations would be involved quite quickly. Don't have a source for this but this is my understanding of the public comments around NATO I have heard in the last couple years.

Edit: Example source that highlights my understanding of NATO's sense of "togetherness": https://www.nato.int/nato_static_fl2014 ... rt-Uni.pdf
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Chinese J-16 cut across RAAF P-8A Poseidon

Mon Jun 06, 2022 6:54 pm

stratable wrote:
I wouldn't be so sure about this. European nations are ramping up military visits to the South China Sea. And I would expect NATO nations to be involved.


I believe it's just a matter of technicality. If any NATO country is attached by China, then NATO will be involved.

If the US defends Taiwan, NATO will not be involved, but some NATO countries will.

That brings up the question, if the US defends Taiwan and may or may not attack main land China, and China retaliates against US territories, then would NATO get involved?

bt
 
tomcat
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Re: Chinese J-16 cut across RAAF P-8A Poseidon

Mon Jun 06, 2022 7:40 pm

Reading about the J-16 on Wiki:
The Chinese military is developing advanced autonomous capabilities for its combat aircraft. In March 2021, it was reported that a J-16 variant with the backseat co-pilot replaced by an artificial intelligence algorithm called "intelligence victory" was undergoing testing at Shenyang Aircraft Corporation.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shenyang_J-16

I guess the one involved in the incident was not equipped with this artificial intelligence algorithm. So on one hand, China is investing in sophisticated equipments while on the other hand, they allow or maybe even promote dumb behaviors by their aviators. What a disconnect!
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Chinese J-16 cut across RAAF P-8A Poseidon

Mon Jun 06, 2022 8:07 pm

par13del wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
LTEN11 wrote:

Most likely it is part of an agreement to help out countries which border the South China Sea and don't have access to suitable equipment to do the patrolling. China is the one making the ridiculous claims of sovereignty in the area, if that hadn't occurred and the construction of bases hadn't taken place, these flights wouldn't be necessary. These aircraft and ships that pass through the area have every right to be there, as long as they have received transiting rights from the respective governments when passing through territorial waters or skies, Beijing isn't included in those discussions as they have no rights to the area they claim.

There are already Chinese naval vessels off Australian coastlines a lot of the time, as long as they stay in international waters they are welcome to stay. Doesn't mean they're not monitored, but there is nothing to stop them from being there. You're analogy breaks down, because Australia doesn't claim the Solomon Islands, or Vanuatu, Fiji, New Caledonia, Samoa, Tonga, etc, not like the way China claims sovereignty over the South China Sea, which nobody recognises. If the Solomon's let's China base aircraft there, that's their prerogative, of cause Australia won't like it, but there wouldn't be a lot Australia could do about it. Don't think the neighbors of the Solomon Islands would be letting Chinese aircraft into their skies though, still they could fly around the Solomon's till their hearts are content.


So why was the not even in they job 1 week Australian foreign minister racing around the pacific sucking up to the Polynesians hot on the tail of the Chinese foreign minister? The problem is Australia has taken Polynesian support for granted without giving them much love in return. Now you’re panicking.

So now that you have moved on from why Australia a/c was patrolling, do we assume you accept their right to patrol?


I don’t see they have any right to patrol so far from Australia in peacetime, Australia isn’t a war with China.
 
Avatar2go
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Re: Chinese J-16 cut across RAAF P-8A Poseidon

Mon Jun 06, 2022 8:31 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
par13del wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

So why was the not even in they job 1 week Australian foreign minister racing around the pacific sucking up to the Polynesians hot on the tail of the Chinese foreign minister? The problem is Australia has taken Polynesian support for granted without giving them much love in return. Now you’re panicking.

So now that you have moved on from why Australia a/c was patrolling, do we assume you accept their right to patrol?


I don’t see they have any right to patrol so far from Australia in peacetime, Australia isn’t a war with China.


It's been explained to you multiple times why, also that explanation is freely available in news coverage of the issue. As long as China makes illegitimate claims in the South China Sea, Western allies will patrol there to ensure they don't enforce those claims. It's necessary to be sure UNCLOS is upheld, to which China is a signatory.

If China doesn't like that, the simple solution is to relinquish those claims and return to their lawful rights in the area, to which no one objects. There is no cause to fault Australia (or others) for upholding international rights in a contested seaway, which they and other nations use heavily for trade routes. They'd be remiss if they didn't. But they're not remiss.

I have the impression you think China is a victim here.
I assure you they are not.
 
stratable
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Re: Chinese J-16 cut across RAAF P-8A Poseidon

Mon Jun 06, 2022 8:34 pm

bikerthai wrote:
stratable wrote:
I wouldn't be so sure about this. European nations are ramping up military visits to the South China Sea. And I would expect NATO nations to be involved.


I believe it's just a matter of technicality. If any NATO country is attached by China, then NATO will be involved.

If the US defends Taiwan, NATO will not be involved, but some NATO countries will.

That brings up the question, if the US defends Taiwan and may or may not attack main land China, and China retaliates against US territories, then would NATO get involved?

bt


That might be the decision to make for European NATO countries, maybe even before a strike on US soil. Say China attacks US personnel in Taiwan or a US ship somewhere in Taiwan's water as part of a first strike on Taiwan, would that trigger the self-defense stipulations.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Chinese J-16 cut across RAAF P-8A Poseidon

Mon Jun 06, 2022 8:54 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
I don’t see they have any right to patrol so far from Australia in peacetime, Australia isn’t a war with China.


No, but since the plane took off from the Philipines, it would seems that the P-8 was patrolling the area on the behalf of/agreement with the Philippine Government.

stratable wrote:
Say China attacks US personnel in Taiwan or a US ship somewhere in Taiwan's water as part of a first strike on Taiwan, would that trigger the self-defense stipulations.


Good question. Would first trike on a US war ship in International or even Taiwanese water trigger NATO Article 5? A first stike on a US ship as part of a Chinese offensive would definitely trigger war declaration by the US. I do not think the Chinese would go that far on a first strike though.

bt
 
pusserchef
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Re: Chinese J-16 cut across RAAF P-8A Poseidon

Mon Jun 06, 2022 11:06 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
par13del wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

So why was the not even in they job 1 week Australian foreign minister racing around the pacific sucking up to the Polynesians hot on the tail of the Chinese foreign minister? The problem is Australia has taken Polynesian support for granted without giving them much love in return. Now you’re panicking.

So now that you have moved on from why Australia a/c was patrolling, do we assume you accept their right to patrol?


I don’t see they have any right to patrol so far from Australia in peacetime, Australia isn’t a war with China.



Kiwirob, i am surprised at your 'seemed' negativness against Australia conducting Freedom of Navigation both at sea and in the skies. You are aware that the Royal New Zealand Navy and Air Force also does this? So in turn your argument is quite mute? Stop Australia bashing......(?)
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Chinese J-16 cut across RAAF P-8A Poseidon

Tue Jun 07, 2022 4:56 am

stratable wrote:
bikerthai wrote:
stratable wrote:
I wouldn't be so sure about this. European nations are ramping up military visits to the South China Sea. And I would expect NATO nations to be involved.


I believe it's just a matter of technicality. If any NATO country is attached by China, then NATO will be involved.

If the US defends Taiwan, NATO will not be involved, but some NATO countries will.

That brings up the question, if the US defends Taiwan and may or may not attack main land China, and China retaliates against US territories, then would NATO get involved?

bt


That might be the decision to make for European NATO countries, maybe even before a strike on US soil. Say China attacks US personnel in Taiwan or a US ship somewhere in Taiwan's water as part of a first strike on Taiwan, would that trigger the self-defense stipulations.


Do you really see China as the aggressor in this, if any country is going to start the conflict I don't see it being them.
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Chinese J-16 cut across RAAF P-8A Poseidon

Tue Jun 07, 2022 4:57 am

pusserchef wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
par13del wrote:
So now that you have moved on from why Australia a/c was patrolling, do we assume you accept their right to patrol?


I don’t see they have any right to patrol so far from Australia in peacetime, Australia isn’t a war with China.



Kiwirob, i am surprised at your 'seemed' negativness against Australia conducting Freedom of Navigation both at sea and in the skies. You are aware that the Royal New Zealand Navy and Air Force also does this? So in turn your argument is quite mute? Stop Australia bashing......(?)


When was the last time the RNZAF conducted patrols in the South China Sea, I have searched and can find no reference to this ever happening.
 
Avatar2go
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Re: Chinese J-16 cut across RAAF P-8A Poseidon

Tue Jun 07, 2022 5:29 am

Kiwirob wrote:
pusserchef wrote:

Kiwirob, i am surprised at your 'seemed' negativness against Australia conducting Freedom of Navigation both at sea and in the skies. You are aware that the Royal New Zealand Navy and Air Force also does this? So in turn your argument is quite mute? Stop Australia bashing......(?)


When was the last time the RNZAF conducted patrols in the South China Sea, I have searched and can find no reference to this ever happening.


New Zealand has participated in patrol exercises in the South China Sea, in conjunction with other Western allies. Overflights as well.

NZDF deployments exercise freedom of navigation and overflight. The NZDF undertakes all activities in accordance with international law, and for ships in particular the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea.

The South China Sea is one of the world’s major sea lanes and is routinely transited by merchant and naval vessels and aircraft.


https://www.nzdf.mil.nz/news/hmnzs-te-k ... china-sea/
 
bajs11
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Re: Chinese J-16 cut across RAAF P-8A Poseidon

Tue Jun 07, 2022 6:41 am

Kiwirob wrote:
bajs11 wrote:
At least the US of A doesn't claim every single island in the Caribbean as part of their territory.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territori ... _China_Sea

Then again the West should blame themselves for have created this new empire which may be as hostile and ambitious as the Empire of Japan.
It will be even more interesting to see what current and future NATO members will do about the PRC.
For example Volvo Cars is owned by the Geely Holding Group of the PRC and it will be extremely interesting to see what the government of Sweden will do if the PRC and the US declare war on each other over Taiwan.


cjg225 wrote:
I'm not entirely sure whether you're being serious.


I know some individuals have been posting anti-Western propaganda in this forum since before the 50 cent party and the Internet Research Agency / Glavset even existed.


Since when is the Pacific part of the remit for NATO, it’s in the title North Atlantic. If/when the US provokes a war with China why should European members of NATO get involved?

Chinese investors also own nearly 20% of Mercedes Benz, they bought Kuka who make industrial robots, Pirelli Tires, the list goes on and on.


Are you saying that none of the NATO countries got involved in Afghanistan or the Korean war as part of the UN forces?
Also, please read the previous sentence about the West should blame themselves for have created this new totalitarian superpower and I only used Sweden, a future member of NATO, as an example.
Do you really expect the liberal democracies in Europe will keep doing business with the PRC if a war breaks out in the Pacific?
If that's the case then neither Australia nor New Zealand should get involved in the ongoing "special military operation" in Ukraine.

https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/russia ... az0BPM53v1

https://www.nzdf.mil.nz/nzdf/significan ... o-ukraine/
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Chinese J-16 cut across RAAF P-8A Poseidon

Tue Jun 07, 2022 8:34 am

bajs11 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
bajs11 wrote:
At least the US of A doesn't claim every single island in the Caribbean as part of their territory.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territori ... _China_Sea

Then again the West should blame themselves for have created this new empire which may be as hostile and ambitious as the Empire of Japan.
It will be even more interesting to see what current and future NATO members will do about the PRC.
For example Volvo Cars is owned by the Geely Holding Group of the PRC and it will be extremely interesting to see what the government of Sweden will do if the PRC and the US declare war on each other over Taiwan.




I know some individuals have been posting anti-Western propaganda in this forum since before the 50 cent party and the Internet Research Agency / Glavset even existed.


Since when is the Pacific part of the remit for NATO, it’s in the title North Atlantic. If/when the US provokes a war with China why should European members of NATO get involved?

Chinese investors also own nearly 20% of Mercedes Benz, they bought Kuka who make industrial robots, Pirelli Tires, the list goes on and on.


Are you saying that none of the NATO countries got involved in Afghanistan or the Korean war as part of the UN forces?
Also, please read the previous sentence about the West should blame themselves for have created this new totalitarian superpower and I only used Sweden, a future member of NATO, as an example.
Do you really expect the liberal democracies in Europe will keep doing business with the PRC if a war breaks out in the Pacific?
If that's the case then neither Australia nor New Zealand should get involved in the ongoing "special military operation" in Ukraine.

https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/russia ... az0BPM53v1

https://www.nzdf.mil.nz/nzdf/significan ... o-ukraine/


The Korean war was not a NATO operation. The US pressured it's allies into fighting in Afghanistan.

I will be surprised if Sweden will get in any time soon, Turkey will be asking for its pound of flesh or it will veto their membership.

https://www.france24.com/en/europe/2022 ... -into-nato

Of course the liberal democracies of Europe and the rest of the world will keep trading with China, they will bankrupt themselves if they didn't. You can see the effects the war in Ukraine is having on the cost of living across Europe, a war with and sanctions on China would be significantly more painful.
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Chinese J-16 cut across RAAF P-8A Poseidon

Tue Jun 07, 2022 8:41 am

Avatar2go wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
pusserchef wrote:

Kiwirob, i am surprised at your 'seemed' negativness against Australia conducting Freedom of Navigation both at sea and in the skies. You are aware that the Royal New Zealand Navy and Air Force also does this? So in turn your argument is quite mute? Stop Australia bashing......(?)


When was the last time the RNZAF conducted patrols in the South China Sea, I have searched and can find no reference to this ever happening.


New Zealand has participated in patrol exercises in the South China Sea, in conjunction with other Western allies. Overflights as well.

NZDF deployments exercise freedom of navigation and overflight. The NZDF undertakes all activities in accordance with international law, and for ships in particular the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea.

The South China Sea is one of the world’s major sea lanes and is routinely transited by merchant and naval vessels and aircraft.


https://www.nzdf.mil.nz/news/hmnzs-te-k ... china-sea/


One incidence, in home many decades? I asked specifically about the RNZAF, where's your evidence they have conducted patrols over the South China Sea?? It's a major undertaking to patrol the SCS from NZ. My guess is probably not since we closed our base in Singapore in 1989.
 
LTEN11
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Re: Chinese J-16 cut across RAAF P-8A Poseidon

Tue Jun 07, 2022 9:23 am

Kiwirob wrote:
Avatar2go wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

When was the last time the RNZAF conducted patrols in the South China Sea, I have searched and can find no reference to this ever happening.


New Zealand has participated in patrol exercises in the South China Sea, in conjunction with other Western allies. Overflights as well.

NZDF deployments exercise freedom of navigation and overflight. The NZDF undertakes all activities in accordance with international law, and for ships in particular the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea.

The South China Sea is one of the world’s major sea lanes and is routinely transited by merchant and naval vessels and aircraft.


https://www.nzdf.mil.nz/news/hmnzs-te-k ... china-sea/


One incidence, in home many decades? I asked specifically about the RNZAF, where's your evidence they have conducted patrols over the South China Sea?? It's a major undertaking to patrol the SCS from NZ. My guess is probably not since we closed our base in Singapore in 1989.


Another quote from the article listed : https://www.nzdf.mil.nz/news/hmnzs-te-k ... china-sea/[/quote]


"The NZDF has operated in the South East Asia region for decades as part of bilateral and regional defence engagement, and demonstrates its commitment to regional security through its presence in the region.

NZDF deployments exercise freedom of navigation and overflight. The NZDF undertakes all activities in accordance with international law, and for ships in particular the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea. "


Do you actually read the articles, or just cherry pick the bits that you think suit you argument ?

What you've seen with sanctions with Russia would be a foretaste of what would happen with China. They would be shut off and isolated from most of the rest of the world, except your friends in Russia and other like minded countries. It would be a costly and painful exercise, but that's the price that sometimes has to be paid to preserve freedoms.
 
Avatar2go
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Re: Chinese J-16 cut across RAAF P-8A Poseidon

Tue Jun 07, 2022 9:41 am

Kiwirob wrote:
Avatar2go wrote:

One incidence, in home many decades? I asked specifically about the RNZAF, where's your evidence they have conducted patrols over the South China Sea?? It's a major undertaking to patrol the SCS from NZ. My guess is probably not since we closed our base in Singapore in 1989.


New Zealand participates annually in the Bersama Lima and Gold exercises in the South China Sea, to which they provide both ships and aircraft.

New Zealand also periodically bases Orion P-3 aircraft in Kadena, Japan to assist in UN monitoring of North Korea. And have done UN missions in the Arabian Gulf as well.

Further New Zealand is on record as supporting freedom of navigation under UNCLOS in the South China Sea, both air and overflight, as I mentioned.

Soon they will have Poseidon P-8 aircraft that will align with the Western allies capabilities. I would expect that will include assisting allies in monitoring of the South China Sea.
 
bajs11
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Re: Chinese J-16 cut across RAAF P-8A Poseidon

Tue Jun 07, 2022 10:45 am

The Korean war was not a NATO operation. The US pressured it's allies into fighting in Afghanistan.


yeah... I did mention that the NATO members entered the Korean war as part of the UN forces. Keep nitpicking, bro.

Does that mean the US also pressured its allies into aiding Ukraine?

Yes both US of A and the EU have become more or less dependent on the PRC which why I said that the West and especially the US of A should blame themselves for have created this new totalitarian superpower.

Since when is the Pacific part of the remit for NATO, it’s in the title North Atlantic.

and you still haven't answered my question about why Australia and New Zealand are aiding Ukraine since by your logic the NATO should stay away from the Pacific since its "North Atlantic" therefore the Pacific nations should also stay away from Europe and what is happening there, right?

Maybe you should also tell the Germans to stay away from the Pacific too
https://www.reuters.com/world/first-ger ... 021-12-15/

Kiwirob wrote:
I will be surprised if Sweden will get in any time soon, Turkey will be asking for its pound of flesh or it will veto their membership.


viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1432273&start=250#p23330207
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1432273&start=250#p23330673
Let's wait and see what the other members of the alliance will say or do about what mr Erdoğan is doing to prevent Sweden and Finland from joining.
There is a reason why they were kicked out of the F-35 program.

Kiwirob wrote:

Of course the liberal democracies of Europe and the rest of the world will keep trading with China, they will bankrupt themselves if they didn't. You can see the effects the war in Ukraine is having on the cost of living across Europe, a war with and sanctions on China would be significantly more painful.


Yeah, that's what everyone said about Russia and the European reliance on Russian gas and oil before the ongoing "special military operation".
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Chinese J-16 cut across RAAF P-8A Poseidon

Tue Jun 07, 2022 11:06 am

Kiwirob wrote:
Do you really see China as the aggressor in this, if any country is going to start the conflict I don't see it being them.


Then I suppose all the talk about retaking Taiwan by force is merely posturing. In that case, I am hopeful. I plan to spend some time in SE Asia when I retire and a war with China would put a crimp in that plan.

bt
 
bajs11
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Re: Chinese J-16 cut across RAAF P-8A Poseidon

Tue Jun 07, 2022 11:17 am

bikerthai wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Do you really see China as the aggressor in this, if any country is going to start the conflict I don't see it being them.


Then I suppose all the talk about retaking Taiwan by force is merely posturing. In that case, I am hopeful. I plan to spend some time in SE Asia when I retire and a war with China would put a crimp in that plan.

bt


Well plenty of neo-liberals have been saying that the PRC is benign and the West should allow them to become the new superpower etc
and you know having them as a major trade partner would eventually lead to them liberalize and even become a liberal democracy...
and the same neo-liberals also believed that keeping mr Vladimir Vladimirovich happy and keep relying on their gas and oil would prevent them from invading their neighboring countries.

https://www.dw.com/en/germany-ex-chance ... a-61843090

https://www.dw.com/en/nord-stream-2-pip ... a-59963553

Image
 
stratable
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Re: Chinese J-16 cut across RAAF P-8A Poseidon

Tue Jun 07, 2022 11:42 am

bikerthai wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Do you really see China as the aggressor in this, if any country is going to start the conflict I don't see it being them.


Then I suppose all the talk about retaking Taiwan by force is merely posturing. In that case, I am hopeful. I plan to spend some time in SE Asia when I retire and a war with China would put a crimp in that plan.

bt


No offense, but are you serious, which other country would voluntarily start a conflict with China? Or is your argument that China will have to defend itself because of NATO "expansion" into the South China Sea?
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Chinese J-16 cut across RAAF P-8A Poseidon

Tue Jun 07, 2022 11:57 am

stratable wrote:
No offense, but are you serious, which other country would voluntarily start a conflict with China?


Perhaps some confusion here.

The scenario I am proposing is China invade Taiwan to "re-unify" the island. And despite the US posture of "ambiguity" it is more likely than not, it will come to the defense of Taiwan. Australia and the UK would follow. Canada? Better than even odds. Japan? I am not certain.

But yes unless China invade Taiwan, I do not see a scenario where a war with China would occur. Even if there was an "incident" in the Straight.

Now along the Indian border . . . I have no clue.

bt
 
stratable
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Re: Chinese J-16 cut across RAAF P-8A Poseidon

Tue Jun 07, 2022 12:02 pm

bikerthai wrote:
stratable wrote:
No offense, but are you serious, which other country would voluntarily start a conflict with China?


Perhaps some confusion here.

The scenario I am proposing is China invade Taiwan to "re-unify" the island. And despite the US posture of "ambiguity" it is more likely than not, it will come to the defense of Taiwan. Australia and the UK would follow. Canada? Better than even odds. Japan? I am not certain.

But yes unless China invade Taiwan, I do not see a scenario where a war with China would occur. Even if there was an "incident" in the Straight.

Now along the Indian border . . . I have no clue.

bt


Oh no, sorry. I was talking to Kiwirob. I just added your reply cause I agreed with your thoughts.
 
bajs11
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Re: Chinese J-16 cut across RAAF P-8A Poseidon

Tue Jun 07, 2022 12:14 pm

bikerthai wrote:
Japan? I am not certain.

But yes unless China invade Taiwan, I do not see a scenario where a war with China would occur. Even if there was an "incident" in the Straight.

Now along the Indian border . . . I have no clue.

bt


They will most likely be involved.
https://www.lemonde.fr/en/opinion/artic ... 68_23.html
Also dont forget the Senkaku islands.

With a new and seemingly more rational president the RoK may also get involved because what do you think the PRC and its satellite state of the DPRK will do if they managed to conquer the RoC?
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Chinese J-16 cut across RAAF P-8A Poseidon

Tue Jun 07, 2022 12:22 pm

bikerthai wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Do you really see China as the aggressor in this, if any country is going to start the conflict I don't see it being them.


Then I suppose all the talk about retaking Taiwan by force is merely posturing. In that case, I am hopeful. I plan to spend some time in SE Asia when I retire and a war with China would put a crimp in that plan.

bt


It’s part of China according to the UN, US and the majority of countries.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Chinese J-16 cut across RAAF P-8A Poseidon

Tue Jun 07, 2022 12:35 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
It’s part of China according to the UN, US and the majority of countries.


No argument from me with the technicalities

We all have seen how effective the UN is with solverenty dispute.

It cones down to how the US reacts. And as we have seen, the US will use the UN when it suits its agenda and will act unilaterally when it feels it must.

From The Drive quoting another article, apparently it was a flare that was ingested.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/c ... -precedent

I guess if those engine can swallow a small bird, it should be able to handle a flare.

bt
 
sierrakilo44
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Re: Chinese J-16 cut across RAAF P-8A Poseidon

Tue Jun 07, 2022 1:01 pm

bajs11 wrote:

Well plenty of neo-liberals have been saying that the PRC is benign and the West should allow them to become the new superpower etc


I don’t think it’s up to the West to dictate who gets to be a superpower or not. Even Napoleon said China’s rise is inevitable.

China only needs to raise their GDP per capita to 25% of America’s and they are the world’s largest economy. It’ll probably be the non Western world (Asia, Africa, Latin America) which gets them there.
 
johns624
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Re: Chinese J-16 cut across RAAF P-8A Poseidon

Tue Jun 07, 2022 1:24 pm

bajs11 wrote:
bikerthai wrote:
Japan? I am not certain.

But yes unless China invade Taiwan, I do not see a scenario where a war with China would occur. Even if there was an "incident" in the Straight.

Now along the Indian border . . . I have no clue.

bt


They will most likely be involved.
https://www.lemonde.fr/en/opinion/artic ... 68_23.html
Also dont forget the Senkaku islands.

With a new and seemingly more rational president the RoK may also get involved because what do you think the PRC and its satellite state of the DPRK will do if they managed to conquer the RoC?
I think Japan would get involved. There's been bad blood between them for centuries. That's why they are converting their "helicopter destroyers" to allow use of F35s. RoK would get involved but would mainly be concerned with the Norks at the beginning.
Last edited by johns624 on Tue Jun 07, 2022 1:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Chinese J-16 cut across RAAF P-8A Poseidon

Tue Jun 07, 2022 1:47 pm

sierrakilo44 wrote:
I don’t think it’s up to the West to dictate who gets to be a superpower or not.


That decision is only made through war.

And technically, China was a world superpower in the past - under the reign of the Khans.

bt
 
A101
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Re: Chinese J-16 cut across RAAF P-8A Poseidon

Wed Jun 08, 2022 4:47 am

bikerthai wrote:
sierrakilo44 wrote:
I don’t think it’s up to the West to dictate who gets to be a superpower or not.


That decision is only made through war.

And technically, China was a world superpower in the past - under the reign of the Khans.

bt


Technically no that's not correct, its achieved by both economic and military might and china is challenging the status quo, Russia was once trying to regain it

What annoys me the most is that China still plays the developing nation card when clearly it is not
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Chinese J-16 cut across RAAF P-8A Poseidon

Wed Jun 08, 2022 11:14 am

A101 wrote:
Technically no that's not correct, its achieved by both economic and military might and china is challenging the status quo, Russia was once trying to regain it


I mean the only way to demote China from being a super power (other than the Chinese themselves) is war.

bt

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