Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
Vintage
Posts: 629
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2022 10:48 pm

Re: China launches high-tech aircraft carrier in naval milestone

Mon Aug 01, 2022 7:53 am

GDB wrote:
You brought up Vietnam, no one else.
When I said "That's about what LBJ thought"? That wasn't about "Vietnam" it was a rebuttal to Flap Operator's post that was both dismissive of a potential enemy and an arrogant claim of American invincibility. He was parroting the exact same view that LBJ had in 1964 (and Bush had in 2003).

GDB wrote:
You also implied that the Scuds meant anything, which beyond the coalition politics, they did not militarily.
No, I was rebutting BT's post here:
bikerthai wrote:
Someone more knowledgeable than me would already have thought about hunting down those anti-carrier missile sites before the carriers gets to the area of operation.
It wasn't about 'scuds'; it was about the futility of hunting mobile missile launchers in a country the size of China. We couldn't take out even one of the 20 mobile launchers in the desert terrain of Anbar province. It is ridiculous to think we could do it in the whole of China.

GDB wrote:
The resources diverted were, in the scheme of things, small.
The entire USAF F-15E fleet was devoted solely to scud hunting throughout the Gulf war. It was a huge scandal that those E models were diverted from the war and were flying in circles in the desert instead of doing the job they had been created for. That was the only time in their 40 year lifespan that they were really needed, and they were in effect absent from that war.

GDB wrote:
They were in fact little more than V-2’s on steroids if the analogy escaped you.
It doesn't matter what they were, the point is the USAF couldn't find them.
 
Vintage
Posts: 629
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2022 10:48 pm

Re: China launches high-tech aircraft carrier in naval milestone

Mon Aug 01, 2022 8:11 am

A101 wrote:
Vintage wrote:
A101 wrote:
Unless the Chinese plan to go nuclear early on those mobile ICBM's wont fly because soon as they do the US will let loose as there is no way of knowing if they are conventionally tip or nuclear until they take out its target

Those missiles wouldn't be targeting the US. And exactly how do you think the US would be able to attack those mobile missiles?
BTW, I notice that all the macho crowd here doesn't seem to give a second thought to the idea of targeting the Chinese mainland.
* shakes head *


Really how do you know that they will not target the continental USA?

And who said anything about attacking the mobile ICBM launchers, all I said if the Chinese do then they will get a full retaliatory strike, as the US will not know if they are conventionally tipped are nuclear?

Remember you are talking about a ground based IBCM with a supposed range of 15000klm not a 1500klm air launched weapon.
You misunderstand the context. The subject of this part of the thread (which is about a Chinese Carrier) was about the survivability of US carriers in the near future. The scenario began when I mentioned satellites and said "if you can find it, you can kill it". I used the fact that China already has a mobile MIRV ICBM operational. I meant that more as a technology demonstration: that they are capable of building a 'carrier killer'. In any event, in the discussion above, it would be a carrier that is targeted, not the US mainland.
 
GDB
Posts: 15678
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

Re: China launches high-tech aircraft carrier in naval milestone

Mon Aug 01, 2022 8:29 am

Vintage wrote:
GDB wrote:
.......................To put it mildly, lessons were learned, then some were forgotten by another Texan President with little knowledge of Foreign Policy but unlike LBJ, also a creature of his VP. Though the main difference this time was the limited domestic blowback as conscription was not used.

But neither Vietnam nor Iraq in 2003 were peer on peer, worth remembering that the last time China went to war, that did not involve massacring unarmed citizens in the nations capital, was with Vietnam in 1979, which did not go according to plan....................

You issued a lot of words, but I don't get your point (you were responding to me, right?)
I don't agree with your Vietnam history lesson (other than you did get Westmoreland right) but that isn't the topic here.
Conscription or lack of it had nothing to do with the strategic blunder that was GWII.

Any comparison of China with Iraq is specious and completely devoid of meaning. Iraq never even made it's own AK-47s, let alone aircraft, radars computer chips, ICBMs, navy, satellites or space station as China has done and is doing.

I hope the people in the Pentagon are not under the delusions that so many military fans here seem to be.


Just remembered, Iraq DID make it’s own AK’s, as well as a version of the T-72. As well as equipment between those two extremes.
They in fact by 1990 had a sophisticated procurement program, with an emphasis on getting by hook or crook the technology and applying it for domestic production, sound familiar?
Far more than that dopey Supergun.
The latter shows the essential difference between 1990 Iraq and present day China, apart from the blindingly obvious, being a huge economic power rather than oil extraction.
Except that Iraq had peer on peer combat from 1980-88.

I agree in 2003 they were a busted flush though.
Having US and RAF aircraft overflying you for 12 years with near impunity Implies that.
What’s the difference between 1991 and 2003, aside from the first being a proper coalition with a UN mandate?
The Pentagon assumed the worst in the planning to throw the Iraqis out of Kuwait.
Not the case in 2003, where planning seemed a dirty word in that administration, for sufficient troop numbers and what happened next.

So China is something of an unknown quantity.
But what have we seen in the very below par performance of their Russian semi allies whose ideas and doctrines still have some influence.
In terms of training, logistics, we know they don’t do the sophisticated all arms training to the extent NATO does, how do the annual flying hours stack up?
Do they have very robust damage control for ships?
My hunch, generally better than Russia but there are major corruption issues in the state which might include the armed forces.
 
A101
Posts: 3232
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: China launches high-tech aircraft carrier in naval milestone

Mon Aug 01, 2022 8:52 am

Vintage wrote:
A101 wrote:
Vintage wrote:
Those missiles wouldn't be targeting the US. And exactly how do you think the US would be able to attack those mobile missiles?
BTW, I notice that all the macho crowd here doesn't seem to give a second thought to the idea of targeting the Chinese mainland.
* shakes head *

Really how do you know that they will not target the continental USA?
And who said anything about attacking the mobile ICBM launchers, all I said if the Chinese do then they will get a full retaliatory strike, as the US will not know if they are conventionally tipped are nuclear?
Remember you are talking about a ground based IBCM with a supposed range of 15000klm not a 1500klm air launched weapon.

You misunderstand the context. The subject of this part of the thread (which is about a Chinese Carrier) was about the survivability of US carriers in the near future. The scenario began when I mentioned satellites and said "if you can find it, you can kill it". I used the fact that China already has a mobile MIRV ICBM operational. I meant that more as a technology demonstration: that they are capable of building a 'carrier killer'. In any event, in the discussion above, it would be a carrier that is targeted, not the US mainland.


No misunderstanding at all, you provided a link to the DF-41 which is a strategic missile not a tactical weapon and its not something they would really use as weapon in the SCS.
 
User avatar
bikerthai
Posts: 6156
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:45 pm

Re: China launches high-tech aircraft carrier in naval milestone

Mon Aug 01, 2022 11:22 am

Vintage wrote:
wasn't about 'scuds'; it was about the futility of hunting mobile missile launchers in a country the size of China. We couldn't take out even one of the 20 mobile launchers in the desert terrain of Anbar province. It is ridiculous to think we could do it in the whole of China.


It is a relevant point. If they came up empty in finding scuds, then it would behooves them to find the right tech or doctrine to rectify that blind spot.

As for attacking the Chinese mainland (to find the launchers), it is a political question that is fraught with historical lessons.

The UN refuse to attack across the Korean/Chinese be border and suffered for it. It attacked across the Vietnamese/Laos/Cambodia border with some success but ultimately futile.

If the US is committed to defend Taiwan, then I'd put it better than 50/50 that military sites in China would be targeted. However distinguishing the "carrier killing" missiles from strategic nukes would be difficult.

I see the problem. But then if we flip the question in its head, the Chinese will have the same concern with the US's "carrier killing" missiles, and torpedoes.

It is a complex issue. We will just have to wait a few years for a chance to see it play out. Probably become another attrition war. How can we end up with more carriers than the Chinese missiles to hit them with.


bt
 
Vintage
Posts: 629
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2022 10:48 pm

Re: China launches high-tech aircraft carrier in naval milestone

Mon Aug 01, 2022 1:23 pm

bikerthai wrote:
The UN refuse to attack across the Korean/Chinese be border and suffered for it.
Are you even serious???????????
You are way off base making that claim. At the time you're speaking there was no "UN" command, there was Douglas MacArthur and there was only Douglas MacArthur in command, he was beyond the control of anyone and that included the POTUS. He ran his army right up to the Chinese border with the obvious intention of provoking China and having China give him an excuse to invade China. The only problem is that it didn't work out like that because for the fourth time in his miserable career he was snookered by an enemy (Pearl Harbor, the day after Pearl Harbor when he left his bombers lined up in rows for the Japanese air force, the original invasion of Korea by Kim's army and when the Chinese over ran the American / UN Army (X Corps) at the Chosin Reservoir on November 27, 1950).
bikerthai wrote:
It attacked across the Vietnamese/Laos/Cambodia border with some success but ultimately futile.
Yea that was simply brilliant, it destroyed the beautiful and peaceful country of Cambodia and caused millions of Cambodians to be driven from their homes and slaughtered after the Khmer Rouge deposed Prince Sihanouk who had kept Cambodia out of the war up until that point.

bikerthai wrote:
If the US is committed to defend Taiwan, then I'd put it better than 50/50 that military sites in China would be targeted. However distinguishing the "carrier killing" missiles from strategic nukes would be difficult.

I see the problem. But then if we flip the question in its head, the Chinese will have the same concern with the US's "carrier killing" missiles, and torpedoes.

It is a complex issue. We will just have to wait a few years for a chance to see it play out. Probably become another attrition war. How can we end up with more carriers than the Chinese missiles to hit them with.
"a complex issue" LOL: that's the same thing the hawks used to say about Vietnam and later about Iraq. They had no clue. One thing China has complete faith in is that if there's a nuclear exchange between the US and China, in the end there still will be a China but the US will be no more, it will be engaged in a civil war. And they're right about that.
 
Vintage
Posts: 629
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2022 10:48 pm

Re: China launches high-tech aircraft carrier in naval milestone

Mon Aug 01, 2022 1:29 pm

A101 wrote:
No misunderstanding at all, you provided a link to the DF-41 which is a strategic missile not a tactical weapon and its not something they would really use as weapon in the SCS.
Alternatively, you still don't understand even after it's been explained to you. That's not my problem.
 
Vintage
Posts: 629
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2022 10:48 pm

Re: China launches high-tech aircraft carrier in naval milestone

Mon Aug 01, 2022 1:53 pm

bikerthai wrote:
Vintage wrote:
wasn't about 'scuds'; it was about the futility of hunting mobile missile launchers in a country the size of China. We couldn't take out even one of the 20 mobile launchers in the desert terrain of Anbar province. It is ridiculous to think we could do it in the whole of China.


It is a relevant point. If they came up empty in finding scuds, then it would behooves them to find the right tech or doctrine to rectify that blind spot.

Yea what is needed is a doctrine that doesn't make our national security depend on finding needles in haystacks. I think the AF has figured that out by now. I hope they have.
 
User avatar
bikerthai
Posts: 6156
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:45 pm

Re: China launches high-tech aircraft carrier in naval milestone

Mon Aug 01, 2022 2:08 pm

Vintage wrote:
still will be a China but the US will be no more, it will be engaged in a civil war. And they're right about that.


Kind of bucking historic trend doesn't it? Use to be that a foreign war would galvanize and unify a country.

I don't see a US Civil War if there was a fight with China. The only US population that has the capability of mounting such an insurrection are probably more vehemently opposed to China. If you bring up the indigenous US support for Russia, then I'd say there is a major difference. In the eyes of Fox viewers, Russian are still caucasian even if many/most of their dead soldiers are from the "far east". There would be no hiding their zenophobia if there was a fight is with China.

Maybe the only card they would play is "why fight for Taiwan" if they are just as Chinsese as mainland China?


bt
 
Vintage
Posts: 629
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2022 10:48 pm

Re: China launches high-tech aircraft carrier in naval milestone

Mon Aug 01, 2022 2:36 pm

bikerthai wrote:
Use to be that a foreign war would galvanize and unify a country.

If you want to discuss this you'll have to start a new thread; it's off topic here.
 
MohawkWeekend
Posts: 1920
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:06 pm

Re: China launches high-tech aircraft carrier in naval milestone

Mon Aug 01, 2022 2:41 pm

It seems that some posters here forget that the wild card in this scenario is the reaction of Japan, S.Korea, Australia and Russia to an aggressive China who picks a fight with the US. They all will think they are next and with good reason.

Get a kick out of the YOUTUBE site 1420 when they ask young Russians who they think the biggest threat to Russia is - the all say China. And that China will ultimately come after Siberia and it's natural resources. And if I'm Japan, I'm building nukes right now.

Thats why an attack on America by the Chinese will be met by a full response by several other countries.
 
Vintage
Posts: 629
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2022 10:48 pm

Re: China launches high-tech aircraft carrier in naval milestone

Mon Aug 01, 2022 2:48 pm

MohawkWeekend wrote:
It seems that some posters here forget that the wild card in this scenario is the reaction of Japan, S.Korea, Australia and Russia to an aggressive China who picks a fight with the US. They all will think they are next and with good reason.

Get a kick out of the YOUTUBE site 1420 when they ask young Russians who they think the biggest threat to Russia is - the all say China. And that China will ultimately come after Siberia and it's natural resources. And if I'm Japan, I'm building nukes right now.

Thats why an attack on America by the Chinese will be met by a full response by several other countries.
Your scenario is that China attacks the US, but what I see here is people advocating that the US should attack China. AFIK nobody in China is discussing taking out missile sites in the US. China has no aircraft carriers off our west coast.
 
Buckeyetech
Posts: 207
Joined: Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:11 am

Re: China launches high-tech aircraft carrier in naval milestone

Mon Aug 01, 2022 2:54 pm

That’s a big “if”. I don’t think the current administration would come to the direct aid of Taiwan if the CCP were to attack.

MohawkWeekend wrote:
It seems that some posters here forget that the wild card in this scenario is the reaction of Japan, S.Korea, Australia and Russia to an aggressive China who picks a fight with the US. They all will think they are next and with good reason.

Get a kick out of the YOUTUBE site 1420 when they ask young Russians who they think the biggest threat to Russia is - the all say China. And that China will ultimately come after Siberia and it's natural resources. And if I'm Japan, I'm building nukes right now.

Thats why an attack on America by the Chinese will be met by a full response by several other countries.
 
johns624
Posts: 5728
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: China launches high-tech aircraft carrier in naval milestone

Mon Aug 01, 2022 2:58 pm

Just a few points...
1. Nobody is suggesting attacking China, just defending Taiwan.
2. Korea was a UN action. The commander just happened to be American.
3. "Running up to the border" and actually invading are two different things. Also, China didn't just have all those troops available locally by happenstance. They were planning on entering the war, no matter what the US did.
4. MacArthur had nothing to do with Pearl Harbor.
5. The occupation forces in Japan had nothing to do with defending Korea.
6. What China could do against one CBG and what they could do against 3-4 CBGs, plus Japan, etc., are two entirely different scenarios.
 
FlapOperator
Posts: 925
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2021 4:07 pm

Re: China launches high-tech aircraft carrier in naval milestone

Mon Aug 01, 2022 3:01 pm

Vintage wrote:
FlapOperator wrote:
I also have no doubt, from seeing them up close, that the Americans have capabilities to work in all of these domains in ways few other nations have conceptualized, let alone fielded.
That's about what LBJ thought.


Tell me more about your opinions on operational level details of Vietnam.

I'm sure its not "durr-herrr some barefoot peasants with AKs beat the Americans!"
 
FlapOperator
Posts: 925
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2021 4:07 pm

Re: China launches high-tech aircraft carrier in naval milestone

Mon Aug 01, 2022 3:11 pm

Vintage wrote:
When I said "That's about what LBJ thought"? That wasn't about "Vietnam" it was a rebuttal to Flap Operator's post that was both dismissive of a potential enemy and an arrogant claim of American invincibility. He was parroting the exact same view that LBJ had in 1964 (and Bush had in 2003).



I'd like to see where I've been "dismissive" of any enemy.

I can give you a hair-teeth-eyeballs assessment of the PRC. They do certain things, like espionage, extraordinarily well. Huawei's rise in 5G for example was very likely a function of stealing from Nortel to the rafters (with the loss of thousands of Canadian jobs and the destruction of the prime Canadian tech company, for example.)

The PRC is making great strides in missile technology, and its investing across the technology board with few restraints either ethical, human capital or financial.

Even the Chinese would admit that the Americans are very strong operational and tactical operators hobbled by their political leadership. Its not a new story.
 
Vintage
Posts: 629
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2022 10:48 pm

Re: China launches high-tech aircraft carrier in naval milestone

Mon Aug 01, 2022 5:39 pm

johns624 wrote:
1. Nobody is suggesting attacking China, just defending Taiwan.
bikerthai wrote:
Someone more knowledgeable than me would already have thought about hunting down those anti-carrier missile sites before the carriers gets to the area of operation. It's like the Ukrainian blasting the depots and bridges before moving in with tanks.

johns624 wrote:
2. Korea was a UN action. The commander just happened to be American.
The U.N. Security Council recommended that all U.N. forces in Korea be placed under the command of the U.S. military. Truman then appointed MacArthur. (The Korean war was a US led operation) https://www.history.com/this-day-in-his ... -commander

johns624 wrote:
3. "Running up to the border" and actually invading are two different things. Also, China didn't just have all those troops available locally by happenstance. They were planning on entering the war, no matter what the US did.
MacArthur intentionally provoked China. War with China was by his design. He intended to use nukes, but Truman wouldn't let him have nukes.

johns624 wrote:
4. MacArthur had nothing to do with Pearl Harbor.
In 1941, five months before Japan bombed Pearl Harbor, he was named commander of all U.S. armed forces in the Pacific.
https://www.history.com/this-day-in-his ... -commander
Also, he was the original architect of the US military defense strategy against Japan in the Pacific.

johns624 wrote:
5. The occupation forces in Japan had nothing to do with defending Korea.
MacArthur was the overall Pacific commander. He was the only five star in the theater.

johns624 wrote:
6. What China could do against one CBG and what they could do against 3-4 CBGs, plus Japan, etc., are two entirely different scenarios.

?
 
Vintage
Posts: 629
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2022 10:48 pm

Re: China launches high-tech aircraft carrier in naval milestone

Mon Aug 01, 2022 5:43 pm

FlapOperator wrote:
I'd like to see where I've been "dismissive" of any enemy.
Post #82.
 
A101
Posts: 3232
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: China launches high-tech aircraft carrier in naval milestone

Mon Aug 01, 2022 5:46 pm

Vintage wrote:
A101 wrote:
No misunderstanding at all, you provided a link to the DF-41 which is a strategic missile not a tactical weapon and its not something they would really use as weapon in the SCS.
Alternatively, you still don't understand even after it's been explained to you. That's not my problem.



I understand what the thread is about, but you went off topic when you referred to DF-41 and mobile launchers that changed the whole dynamic of the post and changed the skirmish/battle from the SCS to perhaps a global war.
 
johns624
Posts: 5728
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: China launches high-tech aircraft carrier in naval milestone

Mon Aug 01, 2022 7:02 pm

Vintage wrote:
johns624 wrote:
1. Nobody is suggesting attacking China, just defending Taiwan.
bikerthai wrote:
Someone more knowledgeable than me would already have thought about hunting down those anti-carrier missile sites before the carriers gets to the area of operation. It's like the Ukrainian blasting the depots and bridges before moving in with tanks.

johns624 wrote:
2. Korea was a UN action. The commander just happened to be American.
The U.N. Security Council recommended that all U.N. forces in Korea be placed under the command of the U.S. military. Truman then appointed MacArthur. (The Korean war was a US led operation) https://www.history.com/this-day-in-his ... -commander

johns624 wrote:
3. "Running up to the border" and actually invading are two different things. Also, China didn't just have all those troops available locally by happenstance. They were planning on entering the war, no matter what the US did.
MacArthur intentionally provoked China. War with China was by his design. He intended to use nukes, but Truman wouldn't let him have nukes.

johns624 wrote:
4. MacArthur had nothing to do with Pearl Harbor.
In 1941, five months before Japan bombed Pearl Harbor, he was named commander of all U.S. armed forces in the Pacific.
https://www.history.com/this-day-in-his ... -commander
Also, he was the original architect of the US military defense strategy against Japan in the Pacific.

johns624 wrote:
5. The occupation forces in Japan had nothing to do with defending Korea.
MacArthur was the overall Pacific commander. He was the only five star in the theater.

johns624 wrote:
6. What China could do against one CBG and what they could do against 3-4 CBGs, plus Japan, etc., are two entirely different scenarios.

?

1. He "provoked" China? Good for him. They were already covertly involved in the war.
2. The military doesn't decide when to use nukes. That's a political decision.
3. That History Channel article is wrong. MacArthur was named head of US army forces in the Far East, not Pacific. The command was headquartered in Manila and had nothing to do with Hawaii.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_St ... e_Far_East
4. As far as your question mark---it's easy. You make it sound like China could destroy a CBG, like it's in a vacuum. They could. The problem is that if a war came, they'd be dealing with 3-4 CBGs, plus attacks from Japan, plus cruise missiles from submarines and B2 raids. They wouldn't be able to concentrate on just one thing.
This is actually kind of funny. I absolutely detest MacArthur, yet here I am semi-defending him.
 
FlapOperator
Posts: 925
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2021 4:07 pm

Re: China launches high-tech aircraft carrier in naval milestone

Mon Aug 01, 2022 7:22 pm

Vintage wrote:
FlapOperator wrote:
I'd like to see where I've been "dismissive" of any enemy.
Post #82.


Where I stated,

"Every kind of combat is a team effort, be it naval, air, ground, space, or cyber. All of these domains have advantages that enable other operations. The true key is in the integration of these operations.

Now, I have no doubt the Americans have their challenges. I also have no doubt, from seeing them up close, that the Americans have capabilities to work in all of these domains in ways few other nations have conceptualized, let alone fielded."

Now, if you can tell me the other nations that even have near the same capabilities as the US along these domain lines, please do.

That's not being dismissive. That's fact. That's not saying the Chinese don't have increasing capabilities, because they do. Its not saying the Russians don't have boutique weapons that are world class, because they do. But, a truly multi-domain force doesn't exist in Europe, or India, or Japan. That's a tremendous amount of the world's population and GDP.
 
FlapOperator
Posts: 925
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2021 4:07 pm

Re: China launches high-tech aircraft carrier in naval milestone

Mon Aug 01, 2022 7:29 pm

johns624 wrote:
This is actually kind of funny. I absolutely detest MacArthur, yet here I am semi-defending him.


Same here. Mac was a pretty worthless General in pack of real sub-par talents. His Pacific campaign was an attritional sideshow that didn't accomplish the end state of the capitulation of the Empire of Japan. However, I can't deny Inchon (even if he stole the idea) and the reality is that Asia would be a far different place, probably for the worse, had he not been there.

Some posters in this thread tend to tip their hand when they conflate an aggressive Mainland Chinese attack on Taiwan as the same as combined attack on Mainland China itself.

That's certainly not the view of the majority of Taiwanese nationals, who don't want to be citizens of the PRC.

I would happily contribute to a thread titled "things wrong in the US and Canada." I wonder if some of netizens of other large powers would happily contribute to a "Things the CCP are doing that are wrong?"
 
User avatar
bikerthai
Posts: 6156
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:45 pm

Re: China launches high-tech aircraft carrier in naval milestone

Mon Aug 01, 2022 7:37 pm

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific ... rld_War_II

This was what I thought I remember. Nimitz commanded the Pacific and MacArthur is responsible Philipines, Taiwan and the invasion of Japan if it came to that.

So let end with that and get back on subject.

bt
 
Vintage
Posts: 629
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2022 10:48 pm

Re: China launches high-tech aircraft carrier in naval milestone

Mon Aug 01, 2022 7:44 pm

johns624 wrote:
That History Channel article is wrong. MacArthur was named head of US army forces in the Far East, not Pacific. The command was headquartered in Manila and had nothing to do with Hawaii.
In December 1941, MacArthur was in charge of everything him and his mom wanted him to be in charge of. You do know about his mom, don't you? Doug had designed the defense against Japan and the Pacific was one theater with one enemy: Japan.

MacArthur was directly responsible for the intelligence failure of Pearl Harbor. MacArthur abhorred the intelligence community, he refused to read the Magic reports, his staff didn't cooperate with the magic team that were running the radio receiver on Corregidor, they considered the magic team to be the enemy - the navy. Had he made the Army cooperate and participate in the intelligence effort, things may have turned out much differently.

Here is a link that tells a lot of the story but it avoids naming MacArthur as the source of the problem, although he was the source of the problem. It also doesn't mention the fact that MacArthur made his escape from Corregidor on the PT boats that evacuated the Magic team. That's the only time MacArthur ever cooperated with them.
http://www.shfg.org/resources/Documents/FH%203%20(2011)%20Mucklow%20.pdf
 
Vintage
Posts: 629
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2022 10:48 pm

Re: China launches high-tech aircraft carrier in naval milestone

Mon Aug 01, 2022 9:41 pm

johns624 wrote:
He "provoked" China? Good for him.
Yea, the Korean 'conflict' went smashingly well after China entered the war - right?

That's why we are in the position we are in today with a nuclear armed north Korea threatening that peninsula. Just lovely.
 
johns624
Posts: 5728
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: China launches high-tech aircraft carrier in naval milestone

Mon Aug 01, 2022 10:13 pm

Vintage wrote:
johns624 wrote:
He "provoked" China? Good for him.
Yea, the Korean 'conflict' went smashingly well after China entered the war - right?

That's why we are in the position we are in today with a nuclear armed north Korea threatening that peninsula. Just lovely.
Like I previously said, China would've entered the war sooner or later. Your link doesn't work. Once again, MacArthur was not in command of the entire Pacific.
 
Vintage
Posts: 629
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2022 10:48 pm

Re: China launches high-tech aircraft carrier in naval milestone

Mon Aug 01, 2022 11:08 pm

johns624 wrote:
Your link doesn't work.

This is an odd URL. Put it in Google's search box and it will bring you to: 'The Navy Tunnel STATION CAST: Tip of the Lance' - click on that.
http://www.shfg.org/resources/Documents/FH%203%20(2011)%20Mucklow%20.pdf

johns624 wrote:
Once again, MacArthur was not in command of the entire Pacific.
I never meant to imply that he was in command of the Navy. The issue goes back to where I said that he had been snookered four times, and you took issue with Pearl harbor. I contend that MacArthur was the overall architect, or at least had a loud voice in the planning for the future war with Japan and presumably keeping an eye on Japan in the meantime. If he bore no responsibility for the fact that Pearl was caught caught unaware then nobody was responsible. They were all snookered, him Short and Nimitz, I suppose you could include George Marshall in that list.

I had grabbed a link that stated he was in command of the entire Pacific which is technically wrong but not far wrong. He was the guy who created the strategy in practice in December 1941 (if there was a strategy in place then). As it was, nobody was in command of the entire Pacific and it remained that way to the end of the war.
 
User avatar
Kiwirob
Posts: 14300
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: China launches high-tech aircraft carrier in naval milestone

Tue Aug 02, 2022 8:23 am

MohawkWeekend wrote:
It seems that some posters here forget that the wild card in this scenario is the reaction of Japan, S.Korea, Australia and Russia to an aggressive China who picks a fight with the US. They all will think they are next and with good reason.

Get a kick out of the YOUTUBE site 1420 when they ask young Russians who they think the biggest threat to Russia is - the all say China. And that China will ultimately come after Siberia and it's natural resources. And if I'm Japan, I'm building nukes right now.

Thats why an attack on America by the Chinese will be met by a full response by several other countries.


I don't think China will pick a fight with the US, I see the US staging another Gulf of Tonkin style incident. If the US goes first will Japan and South Korea go as well, we know the Aussie lapdog would blindly follow the US into anything.

Japan won't be building nukes, it would be illegal, ditto for South Korea.
 
GDB
Posts: 15678
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

Re: China launches high-tech aircraft carrier in naval milestone

Tue Aug 02, 2022 8:48 am

Kiwirob wrote:
MohawkWeekend wrote:
It seems that some posters here forget that the wild card in this scenario is the reaction of Japan, S.Korea, Australia and Russia to an aggressive China who picks a fight with the US. They all will think they are next and with good reason.

Get a kick out of the YOUTUBE site 1420 when they ask young Russians who they think the biggest threat to Russia is - the all say China. And that China will ultimately come after Siberia and it's natural resources. And if I'm Japan, I'm building nukes right now.

Thats why an attack on America by the Chinese will be met by a full response by several other countries.


I don't think China will pick a fight with the US, I see the US staging another Gulf of Tonkin style incident. If the US goes first will Japan and South Korea go as well, we know the Aussie lapdog would blindly follow the US into anything.

Japan won't be building nukes, it would be illegal, ditto for South Korea.


I struggle to see a correlation between that and a full on assault by an autocratic government on a democratic nation which the autocrats don’t think should exist. Sound familiar right now?
Reheating slogans from nearly 60 years ago now?
BTW, how dare you call the Aussies ‘lapdogs’, that title is surely reserved for the UK, oh wait, we refused to even send a token force to that war and didn’t we get the ‘Johnson Treatment’ because of it. There’s a reason why after 70 years there is only one US President the Queen has never met and who never did a state visit here.

Misguided as it was, I can understand why the ANZACs were deployed, the ‘it’s in your backyard’ argument would have been strong and in truth, they did not need much persuading much less coercion to do so.
 
A101
Posts: 3232
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: China launches high-tech aircraft carrier in naval milestone

Tue Aug 02, 2022 9:31 am

Kiwirob wrote:
MohawkWeekend wrote:
It seems that some posters here forget that the wild card in this scenario is the reaction of Japan, S.Korea, Australia and Russia to an aggressive China who picks a fight with the US. They all will think they are next and with good reason.

Get a kick out of the YOUTUBE site 1420 when they ask young Russians who they think the biggest threat to Russia is - the all say China. And that China will ultimately come after Siberia and it's natural resources. And if I'm Japan, I'm building nukes right now.

Thats why an attack on America by the Chinese will be met by a full response by several other countries.


I don't think China will pick a fight with the US, I see the US staging another Gulf of Tonkin style incident. If the US goes first will Japan and South Korea go as well, we know the Aussie lapdog would blindly follow the US into anything.

Japan won't be building nukes, it would be illegal, ditto for South Korea.


Why would they need to stage a Gulf of Tonkin incident?

For starters its not like the French withdrawal from Indochina and secondly China has not directly moved against Taiwan to warrant such an escalation

Also its not illegal for Japan to build nuclear weapons, that's why Japan has refused to sign the UN's on Treaty on the Prohibition of Nuclear Weapons. And indecently neither has Australia.

Japan’s constitution prohibits the acquisition of offensive weapons, aircraft carriers are considered offensive weapons hence why they called them “helicopter destroyers.” nuclear weapons are both offensive and defensive there is no actual law that prohibits nuclear weapons in Japan
 
A101
Posts: 3232
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: China launches high-tech aircraft carrier in naval milestone

Tue Aug 02, 2022 9:36 am

GDB wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
MohawkWeekend wrote:
It seems that some posters here forget that the wild card in this scenario is the reaction of Japan, S.Korea, Australia and Russia to an aggressive China who picks a fight with the US. They all will think they are next and with good reason.

Get a kick out of the YOUTUBE site 1420 when they ask young Russians who they think the biggest threat to Russia is - the all say China. And that China will ultimately come after Siberia and it's natural resources. And if I'm Japan, I'm building nukes right now.

Thats why an attack on America by the Chinese will be met by a full response by several other countries.


I don't think China will pick a fight with the US, I see the US staging another Gulf of Tonkin style incident. If the US goes first will Japan and South Korea go as well, we know the Aussie lapdog would blindly follow the US into anything.

Japan won't be building nukes, it would be illegal, ditto for South Korea.


I struggle to see a correlation between that and a full on assault by an autocratic government on a democratic nation which the autocrats don’t think should exist. Sound familiar right now?
Reheating slogans from nearly 60 years ago now?
BTW, how dare you call the Aussies ‘lapdogs’, that title is surely reserved for the UK, oh wait, we refused to even send a token force to that war and didn’t we get the ‘Johnson Treatment’ because of it. There’s a reason why after 70 years there is only one US President the Queen has never met and who never did a state visit here.

Misguided as it was, I can understand why the ANZACs were deployed, the ‘it’s in your backyard’ argument would have been strong and in truth, they did not need much persuading much less coercion to do so.


Yep the Aussies know which way their bread is buttered, seems the Kiwis have forgotten
 
MohawkWeekend
Posts: 1920
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:06 pm

Re: China launches high-tech aircraft carrier in naval milestone

Tue Aug 02, 2022 2:40 pm

Lap Dogs? LOL

The real Black Swan event will be an uprising of the Chinese people against the Communists. It's happened before and now there are even more Chinese who have studied abroad and returned to China. Plus how many residents in China now have relatives living in the US as Chinese immigration to the States is rather large. They know what's going on too.


Regarding the vulnerability of carrier battle groups. Sinking a US carrier with 3000 Americans lost will unleash a fury that China hasn't seen since the Second World War. Nothing would galvanize the US public more.
 
User avatar
bikerthai
Posts: 6156
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:45 pm

Re: China launches high-tech aircraft carrier in naval milestone

Tue Aug 02, 2022 3:08 pm

    MohawkWeekend wrote:
    Regarding the vulnerability of carrier battle groups. Sinking a US carrier with 3000 Americans lost will unleash a fury that China hasn't seen since the Second World War. Nothing would galvanize the US public more.


    Unlike WWII, the US will not be able to build lots of carriers in relatively short order.

    However, I'm sure we can quickly build an overwhelming fleet of stealth bombers to supplement the remaining carriers.

    Remember unless nukes are involved, it will still comes down to attrition and which side can resupply/rebuild faster.

    bt
     
    Vintage
    Posts: 629
    Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2022 10:48 pm

    Re: China launches high-tech aircraft carrier in naval milestone

    Tue Aug 02, 2022 4:40 pm

    bikerthai wrote:
    Unlike WWII, the US will not be able to build lots of carriers in relatively short order.
    However, I'm sure we can quickly build an overwhelming fleet of stealth bombers to supplement the remaining carriers.
    Remember unless nukes are involved, it will still comes down to attrition and which side can resupply/rebuild faster.bt

    Again you discuss attacking the Chinese mainland, this time with "an overwhelming fleet of stealth bombers", while most of the others here claim they have no such intention; they just want to provide support for Taiwan.

    I have to ask, what type of bombing campaign are you envisioning, a WW2 type of bombing to level Chinese cities or are you suggesting all out nuclear war?
    Have you given any thought to how vast mainland China is?
     
    User avatar
    bikerthai
    Posts: 6156
    Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:45 pm

    Re: China launches high-tech aircraft carrier in naval milestone

    Tue Aug 02, 2022 4:48 pm

    Vintage wrote:
    Again you discuss attacking the Chinese mainland, this time with "an overwhelming fleet of stealth bombers"


    It is so easy to assume one way or another on a-net. My point has nothing to do with attacking the Chinese mainland. It has to do with the posibility of losing carriers and how to fill the holes left.

    Although to me, having the Chinese mainland as a no go zone during an actual conflict when your carriers have been sunk by assets launched from the mainland would be foolish.

    But all of that (including nukes) are hypothetical. We can argue about it until the cows come home. But until the real shooting starts, it would still be hypothetical and is not worth burning bridges arguing over.

    bt :chat:
     
    User avatar
    bikerthai
    Posts: 6156
    Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:45 pm

    Re: China launches high-tech aircraft carrier in naval milestone

    Tue Aug 02, 2022 4:54 pm

    Vintage wrote:
    Have you given any thought to how vast mainland China is?


    Not concerned with the vastness of the Chinese mainland. Really more concerned with where those anti-carriers missiles will be launching from.

    And yes I do have 3 degrees of separation to any attack on the Chinese coast. A collegue of mine has relatives (mother) living in one of the Chinese coastal cities.

    bt
     
    User avatar
    Kiwirob
    Posts: 14300
    Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

    Re: China launches high-tech aircraft carrier in naval milestone

    Tue Aug 02, 2022 4:59 pm

    A101 wrote:
    Kiwirob wrote:
    MohawkWeekend wrote:
    It seems that some posters here forget that the wild card in this scenario is the reaction of Japan, S.Korea, Australia and Russia to an aggressive China who picks a fight with the US. They all will think they are next and with good reason.

    Get a kick out of the YOUTUBE site 1420 when they ask young Russians who they think the biggest threat to Russia is - the all say China. And that China will ultimately come after Siberia and it's natural resources. And if I'm Japan, I'm building nukes right now.

    Thats why an attack on America by the Chinese will be met by a full response by several other countries.


    I don't think China will pick a fight with the US, I see the US staging another Gulf of Tonkin style incident. If the US goes first will Japan and South Korea go as well, we know the Aussie lapdog would blindly follow the US into anything.

    Japan won't be building nukes, it would be illegal, ditto for South Korea.


    Why would they need to stage a Gulf of Tonkin incident?

    For starters its not like the French withdrawal from Indochina and secondly China has not directly moved against Taiwan to warrant such an escalation

    Also its not illegal for Japan to build nuclear weapons, that's why Japan has refused to sign the UN's Treaty on the Prohibition of Nuclear Weapons And indecently neither has Australia.

    Japan’s constitution prohibits the acquisition of offensive weapons, aircraft carriers are considered offensive weapons hence why they called them “helicopter destroyers.” nuclear weapons are both offensive and defensive there is no actual law that prohibits nuclear weapons in Japan


    You’re probably right the US might not need an excuse but history has shown they like to have one, Gulf War 2’s WMD’s is the most recent example.

    Japan signed the NPT in 1970 and ratified it in 1976, the also have the Three Non-Nuclear Principles which was signed into law by the Diet in 1971. Japan also signed and ratified the Comprehensive Nuclear-Test-Ban Treaty. Japan developing nuclear weapons isn’t going to happen.
     
    User avatar
    Kiwirob
    Posts: 14300
    Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

    Re: China launches high-tech aircraft carrier in naval milestone

    Tue Aug 02, 2022 5:02 pm

    bikerthai wrote:
    Vintage wrote:
    Again you discuss attacking the Chinese mainland, this time with "an overwhelming fleet of stealth bombers"


    It is so easy to assume one way or another on a-net. My point has nothing to do with attacking the Chinese mainland. It has to do with the posibility of losing carriers and how to fill the holes left.

    Although to me, having the Chinese mainland as a no go zone during an actual conflict when your carriers have been sunk by assets launched from the mainland would be foolish.

    But all of that (including nukes) are hypothetical. We can argue about it until the cows come home. But until the real shooting starts, it would still be hypothetical and is not worth burning bridges arguing over.

    bt :chat:


    Why would the sinking of a couple of carriers make a nuclear war a good idea? If the US attacked the Chinese mainland that’s a good enough reason for them to attack the US mainland.
     
    User avatar
    Kiwirob
    Posts: 14300
    Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

    Re: China launches high-tech aircraft carrier in naval milestone

    Tue Aug 02, 2022 5:04 pm

    A101 wrote:
    GDB wrote:
    Kiwirob wrote:

    I don't think China will pick a fight with the US, I see the US staging another Gulf of Tonkin style incident. If the US goes first will Japan and South Korea go as well, we know the Aussie lapdog would blindly follow the US into anything.

    Japan won't be building nukes, it would be illegal, ditto for South Korea.


    I struggle to see a correlation between that and a full on assault by an autocratic government on a democratic nation which the autocrats don’t think should exist. Sound familiar right now?
    Reheating slogans from nearly 60 years ago now?
    BTW, how dare you call the Aussies ‘lapdogs’, that title is surely reserved for the UK, oh wait, we refused to even send a token force to that war and didn’t we get the ‘Johnson Treatment’ because of it. There’s a reason why after 70 years there is only one US President the Queen has never met and who never did a state visit here.

    Misguided as it was, I can understand why the ANZACs were deployed, the ‘it’s in your backyard’ argument would have been strong and in truth, they did not need much persuading much less coercion to do so.


    Yep the Aussies know which way their bread is buttered, seems the Kiwis have forgotten


    I’d be more than happy if we had as little as possible to do with the US.
     
    User avatar
    bikerthai
    Posts: 6156
    Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:45 pm

    Re: China launches high-tech aircraft carrier in naval milestone

    Tue Aug 02, 2022 5:08 pm

    Kiwirob wrote:
    Why would the sinking of a couple of carriers make a nuclear war a good idea? If the US attacked the Chinese mainland that’s a good enough reason for them to attack the US mainland.


    Never said it would. It was someone else who brought up the nuclear option.

    As for attacking the US mainland. Japan has done it before (balloon bombs). So I would not take it off the table.

    Kiwirob wrote:
    You’re probably right the US might not need an excuse but history has shown they like to have one


    Excuses are just excuses to justify the real reason. We all know it was about oil and perhaps a personal vendetta from the Bush clan :wink2:

    bt
     
    User avatar
    bikerthai
    Posts: 6156
    Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:45 pm

    Re: China launches high-tech aircraft carrier in naval milestone

    Tue Aug 02, 2022 5:11 pm

    Kiwirob wrote:
    I’d be more than happy if we had as little as possible to do with the US.


    I for one, would be sad as I am a "Lord of the Rings" fan and subscribes to Les Mills. :ashamed:

    bt
     
    leader1
    Posts: 332
    Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 4:44 am

    Re: China launches high-tech aircraft carrier in naval milestone

    Tue Aug 02, 2022 5:29 pm

    Kiwirob wrote:
    A101 wrote:
    GDB wrote:

    I struggle to see a correlation between that and a full on assault by an autocratic government on a democratic nation which the autocrats don’t think should exist. Sound familiar right now?
    Reheating slogans from nearly 60 years ago now?
    BTW, how dare you call the Aussies ‘lapdogs’, that title is surely reserved for the UK, oh wait, we refused to even send a token force to that war and didn’t we get the ‘Johnson Treatment’ because of it. There’s a reason why after 70 years there is only one US President the Queen has never met and who never did a state visit here.

    Misguided as it was, I can understand why the ANZACs were deployed, the ‘it’s in your backyard’ argument would have been strong and in truth, they did not need much persuading much less coercion to do so.


    Yep the Aussies know which way their bread is buttered, seems the Kiwis have forgotten


    I’d be more than happy if we had as little as possible to do with the US.


    If that is the case, why are you in Norway then? Why bother staying in a US/NATO defended country? Talk is cheap.
     
    A101
    Posts: 3232
    Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

    Re: China launches high-tech aircraft carrier in naval milestone

    Tue Aug 02, 2022 5:36 pm

    Kiwirob wrote:
    A101 wrote:
    Kiwirob wrote:

    I don't think China will pick a fight with the US, I see the US staging another Gulf of Tonkin style incident. If the US goes first will Japan and South Korea go as well, we know the Aussie lapdog would blindly follow the US into anything.

    Japan won't be building nukes, it would be illegal, ditto for South Korea.


    Why would they need to stage a Gulf of Tonkin incident?

    For starters its not like the French withdrawal from Indochina and secondly China has not directly moved against Taiwan to warrant such an escalation

    Also its not illegal for Japan to build nuclear weapons, that's why Japan has refused to sign the UN's Treaty on the Prohibition of Nuclear Weapons And indecently neither has Australia.

    Japan’s constitution prohibits the acquisition of offensive weapons, aircraft carriers are considered offensive weapons hence why they called them “helicopter destroyers.” nuclear weapons are both offensive and defensive there is no actual law that prohibits nuclear weapons in Japan


    You’re probably right the US might not need an excuse but history has shown they like to have one, Gulf War 2’s WMD’s is the most recent example.

    Japan signed the NPT in 1970 and ratified it in 1976, the also have the Three Non-Nuclear Principles which was signed into law by the Diet in 1971. Japan also signed and ratified the Comprehensive Nuclear-Test-Ban Treaty. Japan developing nuclear weapons isn’t going to happen.


    All NPT is a transfer of nuclear weapons tech, nothing about doing ones own research and build.

    Notice it says principles which is different from law
     
    johns624
    Posts: 5728
    Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

    Re: China launches high-tech aircraft carrier in naval milestone

    Tue Aug 02, 2022 5:36 pm

    leader1 wrote:
    Kiwirob wrote:
    A101 wrote:

    Yep the Aussies know which way their bread is buttered, seems the Kiwis have forgotten


    I’d be more than happy if we had as little as possible to do with the US.


    If that is the case, why are you in Norway then? Why bother staying in a US/NATO defended country? Talk is cheap.
    I think he's more a China-type of guy. According to the one study someone linked to earlier, China has quite a bit of influence in NZ. The Wicked Witch of Wellington seems to like them.
     
    leader1
    Posts: 332
    Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 4:44 am

    Re: China launches high-tech aircraft carrier in naval milestone

    Tue Aug 02, 2022 5:54 pm

    johns624 wrote:
    leader1 wrote:
    Kiwirob wrote:

    I’d be more than happy if we had as little as possible to do with the US.


    If that is the case, why are you in Norway then? Why bother staying in a US/NATO defended country? Talk is cheap.
    I think he's more a China-type of guy. According to the one study someone linked to earlier, China has quite a bit of influence in NZ. The Wicked Witch of Wellington seems to like them.


    He isn't. He's always been more of a Russian stooge on this forum. His China stance is more due to anti-Americanism more than anything else. People like him view absolutely any alternative as better. They're silent on whatever transgressions those nations do. Besides, he would never be accepted in China. Not at the rate xenophobia/racism is taking that country by storm. Heck, even the most pro-CCP White tankies are leaving that country in droves.
     
    MohawkWeekend
    Posts: 1920
    Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:06 pm

    Re: China launches high-tech aircraft carrier in naval milestone

    Tue Aug 02, 2022 7:23 pm

    And the bulk of the Chinese I meet studying here want nothing with going back.

    Those Chinese students sound just like the Russian students that the "1420 Project" interviews on YouTube. Apparently only New Zealand refugees don't like the States.
     
    User avatar
    Kiwirob
    Posts: 14300
    Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

    Re: China launches high-tech aircraft carrier in naval milestone

    Wed Aug 03, 2022 5:13 am

    leader1 wrote:
    Kiwirob wrote:
    A101 wrote:

    Yep the Aussies know which way their bread is buttered, seems the Kiwis have forgotten


    I’d be more than happy if we had as little as possible to do with the US.


    If that is the case, why are you in Norway then? Why bother staying in a US/NATO defended country? Talk is cheap.


    Two different countries buddy, two different environments.
     
    User avatar
    Kiwirob
    Posts: 14300
    Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

    Re: China launches high-tech aircraft carrier in naval milestone

    Wed Aug 03, 2022 5:17 am

    johns624 wrote:
    leader1 wrote:
    Kiwirob wrote:

    I’d be more than happy if we had as little as possible to do with the US.


    If that is the case, why are you in Norway then? Why bother staying in a US/NATO defended country? Talk is cheap.
    I think he's more a China-type of guy. According to the one study someone linked to earlier, China has quite a bit of influence in NZ. The Wicked Witch of Wellington seems to like them.


    No I’m more a NZ should remain as neutral as possible and work with however provides us with the most benefits. We’re a small country at the moment China are by far and away our largest trading partner, the US isn’t even remotely close to the volume and value we get from them.
     
    FGITD
    Posts: 2157
    Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:44 pm

    Re: China launches high-tech aircraft carrier in naval milestone

    Wed Aug 03, 2022 8:09 am

    bikerthai wrote:

    Although to me, having the Chinese mainland as a no go zone during an actual conflict when your carriers have been sunk by assets launched from the mainland would be foolish.


    I’d have to agree to that point, I’m not sure what type of conflict this is where apparently China sinks a U.S. carrier and the US seems to shrug it off?

    Nothing riles up Americans like being attacked, hence all the other talk of false flag style operations. Everyone knows it. If a carrier was sunk with casualties in the thousands, Americans across the board would be calling for the absolute decimation of the Chinese military capability and government. Human life is cheap in war. Need to level a neighborhood because that’s where the manufacturer of some arms is? You do it.

    Not saying I agree with it and like the rest of us, hope it would never come to it. But there’s absolutely no way any country could get away with sinking an American carrier and get away with it. The US wouldn’t settle for a like-for-like attack.
     
    A101
    Posts: 3232
    Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

    Re: China launches high-tech aircraft carrier in naval milestone

    Wed Aug 03, 2022 8:52 am

    Kiwirob wrote:
    johns624 wrote:
    leader1 wrote:

    If that is the case, why are you in Norway then? Why bother staying in a US/NATO defended country? Talk is cheap.
    I think he's more a China-type of guy. According to the one study someone linked to earlier, China has quite a bit of influence in NZ. The Wicked Witch of Wellington seems to like them.


    No I’m more a NZ should remain as neutral as possible and work with however provides us with the most benefits. We’re a small country at the moment China are by far and away our largest trading partner, the US isn’t even remotely close to the volume and value we get from them.


    Well that's says a lot about you, as long as you get the benefit

    Who is online

    Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests

    Popular Searches On Airliners.net

    Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

    Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

    Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

    Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

    Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

    Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

    Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

    Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

    Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

    Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

    Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

    Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

    Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

    Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

    Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos