Aesma wrote:

An alternative to my high end hunter killer UAV armada would be cheap, off the shelf drones just flown into the path of the enemies' drones. Buy thousands of them. Maybe attach some kind of net to them so they catch the propeller of the adversary.

I don't remember where I saw it recently but there was a company that came up with an idea to foul the propeller of a drone with a net. I think it was fired at the drone from the ground but from what range I do not remember.

Aesma wrote:

An alternative to my high end hunter killer UAV armada would be cheap, off the shelf drones just flown into the path of the enemies' drones. Buy thousands of them. Maybe attach some kind of net to them so they catch the propeller of the adversary.

Nice, fishing nets would work well if available...

Yes fishing nets with some metal weights at the bottom so that they form a vertical screen.

bikerthai wrote:

par13del wrote:

Mini guns or large caliber machine guns may require more / some structural modification, use a lot of ammo, proposal was a poor mans choice to use what may already be available.

A sharp shooter with a 50 cal may be a poor man's choice, but how many sharp shooter out there can hit a flying target in turbulence at 1000 m?

Where as you can probably easily find enough M-60 MG, hang them of some bungie and man it with your regular Joe.

bt

With exploding shells, or alternatively shotguns.

Shooting at drones with unguided rifles or machine guns is an act of pure desperation.

Vintage wrote:

Shooting at drones with unguided rifles or machine guns is an act of pure desperation.

So is trying to use MANPADS to defend against Hyper-Sonic and other cruise missiles, but guess what, if that is all you have available.....
Imagine charging towards an enemy in a Humvee which as we all know has little to no armour and can be demolished by an RPG which are all over the battle field, but guess what......
The march of technology in the world today unfortunately has been driven by war's and the necessity of combatants to defend or take territory to achieve the aims.

par13del wrote:

............if that is all you have available.....

Then you're desperate.
That's what I said.

How high are the Russian observation drones flying? are they using kamikaze drones too?

Kinda out there but a 10 and some 12 gauge shotgun(s) have an effective range with birdshot of 60 to 100 meters. (a single soldier CIWS on the cheap).
Shotguns were extensively used in WW1 and following conflicts for close-in combat.

MohawkWeekend wrote:

How high are the Russian observation drones flying? are they using kamikaze drones too?

Kinda out there but a 10 and some 12 gauge shotgun(s) have an effective range with birdshot of 60 to 100 meters. (a single soldier CIWS on the cheap).
Shotguns were extensively used in WW1 and following conflicts for close-in combat.

Well apparently the Russians are reading this website!
Russians Fear A Ukrainian Kamikaze Drone Onslaught Is Imminent, Propose Saiga-12 Shotgun As Counter
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0oTGc35fkc

MohawkWeekend wrote:

MohawkWeekend wrote:

How high are the Russian observation drones flying? are they using kamikaze drones too?

Kinda out there but a 10 and some 12 gauge shotgun(s) have an effective range with birdshot of 60 to 100 meters. (a single soldier CIWS on the cheap).
Shotguns were extensively used in WW1 and following conflicts for close-in combat.

Well apparently the Russians are reading this website!
Russians Fear A Ukrainian Kamikaze Drone Onslaught Is Imminent, Propose Saiga-12 Shotgun As Counter
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0oTGc35fkc

I proposed on this site for airport authorities to use bird shot against drones near the airfield, but a modern-ish army? That's all they can do? If I had a kamikaze drone swarm coming at me I'd set off an EMP.

A lot of videos show the camera view of the kamikaze drone as it bears down on some poor Russian. Would you stand in position with a shotgun and fire back or duck for cover? In one of the video's, the Russian is riding on the top of a BMP and seems frozen as to what to do.
You won't have much time to bring ether a shotgun or or a EMP gun to bear in either case. At least with the shotgun you might destroy the drone and cause the warhead to explode whereas the EMP would just break the signal. It might be too late at that time to change it's trajectory.

EMP is black magic to me. But there is a way to shield sensitive electronics from EMP strikes.

In terms of guidance, most guided munition have inertial guidance as back up. So if the GPS signal is jammed at the last moments the munitions can still get close to the target.

bt

As part of the latest US aid package;
https://taskandpurpose.com/news/us-mili ... an-drones/

Essentially Technicals!

GDB wrote:

As part of the latest US aid package;
https://taskandpurpose.com/news/us-mili ... an-drones/

Essentially Technicals!

While shooting down any incoming drone eg Shahed means one less ground target being attacked, I wonder how many pickup trucks with guns would be needed to provide sufficient cover to take aim at all incoming attack drones. Thousands? Having said that, if each truck with gun(s) cost $50,000, 1,000 such trucks would be a very affordable way to counter a large proportion of drone attacks.

art wrote:

GDB wrote:

As part of the latest US aid package;
https://taskandpurpose.com/news/us-mili ... an-drones/

Essentially Technicals!

While shooting down any incoming drone eg Shahed means one less ground target being attacked, I wonder how many pickup trucks with guns would be needed to provide sufficient cover to take aim at all incoming attack drones. Thousands? Having said that, if each truck with gun(s) cost $50,000, 1,000 such trucks would be a very affordable way to counter a large proportion of drone attacks.

No, as shown, for some months now, with videos and other reports on here and on the main thread on Nov Av, that they have devised these units below the main AD networks, with such simple things as comms, observation units, command and control, that Royal Observer Corps members nearly 80 years ago, would have recognized when the V-1's came over the UK.
Like them, positioning and allocating where needed, does not work 100% but neither does expensive AD systems.

I'm curious about the 30mm cannon gun truck.

Why 30mm? Why not 20mm?

The first reason would be engagement distances.

The second could be use of proximity fuse. I wonder if they will be equipped with proximity fuse, or will such a system to complicated to integrate?

by

Practical, cost effective anti-drone system?

"“Our engineers’ passion for APKWS technology led to the development of this new product designed to meet drones head-on. This is a solution that comes at a remarkably affordable price point, and with APKWS already at full-rate production, we can ramp up to 25,000 units per year to make an immediate impact.” - Aimee D’Onofrio, a director of Precision Guidance and Sensing Solutions at BAE Systems

“demonstrated 100% effectiveness” when fired against 25 to 50-pound drones traveling at over 100 miles per hour...

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/bae-apk ... ne-office/

The RIwP turret includes a high-quality Leonardo DRS EO/IR sensor and Northrop Grumman’s XM914 (30mmx113mm) cannon which has been proven very effective against drones using proximity-fused ammunition.

This must be the 30mm gun they are talking about.

https://breakingdefense.com/2023/04/the ... -ew/?amp=1

bt

bikerthai wrote:

The RIwP turret includes a high-quality Leonardo DRS EO/IR sensor and Northrop Grumman’s XM914 (30mmx113mm) cannon which has been proven very effective against drones using proximity-fused ammunition.

This must be the 30mm gun they are talking about.

https://breakingdefense.com/2023/04/the ... -ew/?amp=1

bt

Seems most likely, likely not only against drones either, I’ve seen footage/pics of Ukrainians using S-60 57mm AA guns against ground targets.
But with proximity fused ammunition makes sense against drones along with the fire control systems.

https://mezha.media/en/2023/04/27/ukrai ... e-systems/

Looks like the Skynex system is indeed in Ukraine.

superbizzy73 wrote:

https://mezha.media/en/2023/04/27/ukraine-has-already-received-rheinmetall-skynex-short-range-air-defense-systems/

Looks like the Skynex system is indeed in Ukraine.

Note that this isn't just one system or one gun, but 2 systems with 4 guns each. Good to protect high-value targets (e.g. airfields, weapon depots, power stations) from airstrikes.

...two Rheinmetall Skynex air defense batteries, the purchase of which was financed by the German government (contract value €182 million)...

https://mezha.media/en/2023/04/27/ukrai ... e-systems/

That reported cost sounds way off the mark. €182 million for 2 batteries?

art wrote:

...two Rheinmetall Skynex air defense batteries, the purchase of which was financed by the German government (contract value €182 million)...

https://mezha.media/en/2023/04/27/ukrai ... e-systems/

That reported cost sounds way off the mark. €182 million for 2 batteries?

Meaning eight guns, two radar systems, two command modules and ammunition, including modern and advanced rounds.
For drones but also missiles, aircraft targets too.
Defending high value targets.

art wrote:

...two Rheinmetall Skynex air defense batteries, the purchase of which was financed by the German government (contract value €182 million)...

https://mezha.media/en/2023/04/27/ukrai ... e-systems/

That reported cost sounds way off the mark. €182 million for 2 batteries?

Qatar bought a single battery with 8 guns for about $210 million in 2019. So yeah, the cost seems to check out.
https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... ir-defence

Russia launched a multi-wave overnight attack on Ukraine, using 70 air assault weapons, including cruise and hypersonic missiles and Iranian-made drones, Kyiv’s air force has said.

Reuters reports that the air force said Ukraine’s air defence destroyed 30 out of 40 cruise missiles and all 27 of the Shahed drones that Russia launched overnight.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/ ... e4127cfab2

Assuming the report is true, I wonder what system Ukraine has developed or implemented to reach a position where it can down 100% of the Shahed drones launched at it. Any ideas?

art wrote:

Russia launched a multi-wave overnight attack on Ukraine, using 70 air assault weapons, including cruise and hypersonic missiles and Iranian-made drones, Kyiv’s air force has said.

Reuters reports that the air force said Ukraine’s air defence destroyed 30 out of 40 cruise missiles and all 27 of the Shahed drones that Russia launched overnight.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/ ... e4127cfab2

Assuming the report is true, I wonder what system Ukraine has developed or implemented to reach a position where it can down 100% of the Shahed drones launched at it. Any ideas?

A mix of electronic interference and old school AAA?
That would be my guess, they are vulnerable when spotted/heard, to medium/heavy machine guns and AA cannon.
As much about setting up robust warning and tracking, from AD systems to Pavel and his mates with comms and a machine gun on a pick up.

Will DEW systems provide a better way of shooting down drones than using missiles? Using a missile to down a drone costs upwards of $100,000, doesn't it?

https://youtu.be/PtLgX8purYE

A Russian helicopter intercepted a slightly larger UAV and attempted to shoot it down with guns, albeit unsuccessfully. Not so easy, it seems.
https://old.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/ ... _shooting/

The IRG would only be able to pull an attack off once with manned speedboats.


The article I linked says the USN has modified its CIWS Gatling guns to track and destroy surface targets. Just not sure there would be enough of them to eliminate a swarm (drone or speedboats). I wonder if the USN goes to 'battle stations" in situations like this? The USN Cole and USN Stark attacks show the threat is real.

How to defend? Well Russia has various ideas.
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/r ... royed-jets

This expensive one did not succeed;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CDmakmGvm8

Some more counter systems for Ukraine;
https://mil.in.ua/en/news/australian-eo ... o-ukraine/

This time from the Russian POV, a helicopter finds some success shooting at a large recon UAV. Still takes multiple tries, as many shots miss.
https://old.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/ ... ian_drone/

Been awhile since anyone has posted but now we have USN and the RN battling drones and crude cruise missiles on a daily basis.

F-18's,SM-2's and Sea Vipers are a really expensive way to deal with this threat. I have to imagine (hope) that DARPA and the British equivilant DSTL are working on a cost effective counter. Until lasers can do the job of course.

Attack helos are probably too slow but do have excellent targeting systems.

MohawkWeekend wrote:

Been awhile since anyone has posted but now we have USN and the RN battling drones and crude cruise missiles on a daily basis.

F-18's,SM-2's and Sea Vipers are a really expensive way to deal with this threat. I have to imagine (hope) that DARPA and the British equivilant DSTL are working on a cost effective counter. Until lasers can do the job of course.

Attack helos are probably too slow but do have excellent targeting systems.

The problem is that these ships do have much cheaper systems, Cannon, CIWS of various kinds, the targets though, due to the nature of this mission, are usually out of range of them.
It was reported that one target destroyed by HMS Diamond was by ‘guns’, reportedly the 30mm cannon, presumably it crossed with range rather than targeted the ship.
Also maybe one by a 5 inch from a USN Destroyer?
They are not all drones either, some are Iranian sourced or made with their assistance missiles, including ballistic ones, the latter really requires Standard or Aster missiles to intercept them.

There are certainly laser developments at DSTL, as for a viable deployable system, it seems like the fusion power of weapon systems, always a few years away, remember the YAL-1 747 conversion? Had that worked it would be ideal.

Short range air defence would work a lot better if it was installed on the targets. Like old merchant vessels would regularly carry light armaments against pirates.

Same problem as what Ukraine faces. You have to kill launch platforms and manufacturing capability. If needed, do the necessary HR work (as in "terminated with extreme prejudice" sort of HR work) too.
Otherwise, it's a very asymmetrical, even financially, equation. To kill a few cheap drones, you spend millions. Not to mention a risk of saturation.

Maybe now, the allies will see the light, and give Ukraine the opportunity to kill platforms. Our intelligence works hard on blowing up factories, but assets on the ground are valuable and rare, can't waste them. Blowing up an airfield, full of strategic bombers, simply by throwing plenty of cluster munitions, is way less problematic. Instead of taking out the whole airfield in one go, we had low-power drones blowing themselves up on canopy of a A-50 in Belarus; or a minimal-impact attack on Shaikovka and similarly something weak in Engels...

In Yemen, I guess there has to be a tactic to kill platforms and manufacturing. I'm just not as familiar with the theater. At least interdiction of shipping, to prevent propellants and explosives getting in, should be in store. Of course, that does nothing to the stuff already in country. But a total naval blockade, with all ships trying to enter Yemeni waters (except those passing through the Strait), subject to sinking -- is it achievable?

I do recall seeing a video on YouTube of a Ukrainian drone spotting a Russian drone below it. It was maneuvered into a collision that sent the RU drone crashing down. Build drones specifically for that task perhaps - equipped with a shotgun?

Wonder if E-3c's or shipboard EW systems couldn't fry the crude guidance systems.

MohawkWeekend wrote:

I do recall seeing a video on YouTube of a Ukrainian drone spotting a Russian drone below it. It was maneuvered into a collision that sent the RU drone crashing down. Build drones specifically for that task perhaps - equipped with a shotgun?

Wonder if E-3c's or shipboard EW systems couldn't fry the crude guidance systems.

The whole "fight small drones by small drones" requires a lot of small drones. You need to stop all incoming drones; THEY only need one of theirs to get through, to make their point.

That ramming attack by a Ukrainian drone was more or less a chance encounter.
I can visualize a situation, when multiple drones head in opposite directions, to do their things, with operators not noticing/not paying attention.

So, you have to take the fight to the core of the enemy operations.

Last week, an (in)famous russian frontline drone operator, nickname Moisei, was taken out together with a good part of his gang. Before, they were responsible with multiple drone attacks against Ukraine and our defenders.
Fortunately, the private home these ruskies stole, to run their show, was spotted. A drone reached them the second they were beginning to roll down the garage door, trying to hide inside. Subsequent internal detonation heralded termination, with extreme prejudice. Roast In Pieces, ruskie scum. Too bad the house took damages...

So there you have it. A single properly placed drone, takes out a cache of drones, and the scum who operates them. Way more efficient than holding up a permanent "cloud" of drones just to intercept a potential of incursion. With the intelligence gathering capability the US has (satellites, SIGINT, ELINT), spotting operator bases and caches, and then hitting them with superior firepower, should be a cheaper excercise, than trying to defeat each individual drone in a terminal phase.

In 1940's, British didn't try to stop bombs falling on their cities, once they were dropped. Bombing the enemy aircraft factories and shooting down enemy planes enroute made more sense. Same idea....

All good points but the Brits did use interceptors to shoot down or collide with V-1's. But ultimately overrunning German launch sites ended the threat.

I would hope that although the US has run out of "authorized funds" for weapon transfers, that the CIA budget includes money for the supply of high tech US drones. I haven't read how well the 'switchblade" drones worked that the US supplied early in the war.

MohawkWeekend wrote:

All good points but the Brits did use interceptors to shoot down or collide with V-1's. But ultimately overrunning German launch sites ended the threat.

I would hope that although the US has run out of "authorized funds" for weapon transfers, that the CIA budget includes money for the supply of high tech US drones. I haven't read how well the 'switchblade" drones worked that the US supplied early in the war.

AA guns took out the most, one that they did not flew over my Mum then aged 13, she still remembers those ‘bloody doodlebugs’.
Then interceptors, including Meteors.
The original plan to mass launch from fixed sites in France, ended before it began when the RAF used the precision bombs of the era, Tallboys, meaning a switch to mobile launchers, hard to find, needing a very direct hit but greatly reducing the launch cadence.
Prior to that, the partly successful big raid on Peenemunde facility the previous year, had delayed it and the V-2’s introduction until after the main Normandy landings.

I see some parallels especially this year, with Ukrainian defences against air attacks, with both the integrated system, down to modern versions the Royal Observer Corps as well as radars, in both the Battle of Britain and the V weapon attacks. With the teams in vehicles being like a mobile ROC, albeit with cannon and/or machine guns and MANPADs, networked together to in their case, go after Sahed drones, with cruise weapons dealt with by more complex systems.
One major difference. aside from bringing the war to an end, no defence in 1944/45 against the ballistic V-2.

Ukraine at least has some, not enough as we saw the other night with an all ballistic attack having 21 out of 41 interceptions.
Shockingly, the country that first came under ballistic missile attack, where I am, does not, unless a Type 45 Destroyer is positioned in the right place, better yet after the planned BMD upgrade.

GDB wrote:

MohawkWeekend wrote:

All good points but the Brits did use interceptors to shoot down or collide with V-1's. But ultimately overrunning German launch sites ended the threat.

I would hope that although the US has run out of "authorized funds" for weapon transfers, that the CIA budget includes money for the supply of high tech US drones. I haven't read how well the 'switchblade" drones worked that the US supplied early in the war.

AA guns took out the most, one that they did not flew over my Mum then aged 13, she still remembers those ‘bloody doodlebugs’.
Then interceptors, including Meteors.
The original plan to mass launch from fixed sites in France, ended before it began when the RAF used the precision bombs of the era, Tallboys, meaning a switch to mobile launchers, hard to find, needing a very direct hit but greatly reducing the launch cadence.
Prior to that, the partly successful big raid on Peenemunde facility the previous year, had delayed it and the V-2’s introduction until after the main Normandy landings.

I see some parallels especially this year, with Ukrainian defences against air attacks, with both the integrated system, down to modern versions the Royal Observer Corps as well as radars, in both the Battle of Britain and the V weapon attacks. With the teams in vehicles being like a mobile ROC, albeit with cannon and/or machine guns and MANPADs, networked together to in their case, go after Sahed drones, with cruise weapons dealt with by more complex systems.
One major difference. aside from bringing the war to an end, no defence in 1944/45 against the ballistic V-2.

Ukraine at least has some, not enough as we saw the other night with an all ballistic attack having 21 out of 41 interceptions.
Shockingly, the country that first came under ballistic missile attack, where I am, does not, unless a Type 45 Destroyer is positioned in the right place, better yet after the planned BMD upgrade.

So true. As Stalin would say "Quantity has a quality of its own". Killing platforms, destroying airfields at least up to Urals, blowing up industrial capacity (HUMINT assets work on that part, but airstrikes are less dangerous to the scarce HUMINT assets on the ground), making bridges impasse -- that's the way to do it. Then instead of 100-missiles salvo, enemy would have to limit its appetite, and then saturation would be unachievable.
Of course, cutting the head off the snake, and eliminating C&C capability at the source (Kremlin, or Tehran, or wherever Resident Evil is) is the most cost-efficient way. But somehow, we are told to do neither...

Writing about UK Dragonfire system in development...

Laser directed energy weapons can hit targets at the speed of light, and use an intense beam of light to pass through the target, causing structural failure or more impactful results if aimed at the warhead. Firing it for 10 seconds has a cost equivalent to using a normal heater for just one hour. It therefore has the potential to be a long-term low-cost alternative for certain tasks currently performed by missiles. The cost of operating the laser is typically less than £10 (USD 12.7) per shot and the accuracy required is equivalent to hitting a small coin from a kilometer away.

https://www.aviacionline.com/2024/01/uk ... irst-time/

Promising as an anti-drone system?

Last month, a Russian report was leaked about the serious issues they are having against the cheaper, simpler drones from Ukraine;
https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidhambl ... wn-drones/

An example of what they face;
https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidhambl ... s-shaheds/

Has the US supplied M-134 7.62 mm mini-guns to Ukraine? Seems that would be an effective and really portable system as I recall seeing videos of them mounted on the back of pickup trucks. Modern day "Rat Patrol".

MohawkWeekend wrote:

Has the US supplied M-134 7.62 mm mini-guns to Ukraine? Seems that would be an effective and really portable system as I recall seeing videos of them mounted on the back of pickup trucks. Modern day "Rat Patrol".

Aren't they electrically powered? Which could limit installations, though the RN are replacing theirs, with .50 M3M's, on their warships so one source.

Electronic warfare seems to have brought down the Shaheds here;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMAPeB-F8ks

Well Ford makes a version of it's F-150 that is gasoline powered and also has the capability to generate a lot of electricity. One advertised use is to provide power for electric tools at a home construction site.

Well the US has suffered it's first fatal drone attack. Will be interesting to see US response.

Time for the US to bring back the mini-guns for last ditch CIWS for ground troops?

MohawkWeekend wrote:

Well the US has suffered it's first fatal drone attack. Will be interesting to see US response.

Time for the US to bring back the mini-guns for last ditch CIWS for ground troops?

The US have something better, so did the UK, Phalanx systems on land.
It depends on the nature of the base, reports are that the troops were in tents, so it has to be something mobile, Avenger for instance.

Reports are also saying that the drone might have been mistaken for a US one. If this is true then it was not undefended.
https://www.businessinsider.com/enemy-d ... ?r=US&IR=T

NATO is looking to adopt near-term, cheaper options to protect against one-way attack drones...

https://aviationweek.com/defense-space/ ... v-defenses

A flying sound-based drone detection system from India that can identify the type of drone...

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/iit-jam ... em-5058576

If a drone can be detected and identified by sound, could it be tracked using the sound it makes to allow it to be attacked by the flying detector UAV? Is this a system that could reduce the cost of downing drones, if armed with something suited to downing drones? I saw elsewhere that the developer mentioned a figure of 4 lakh (around 5,000 USD ) as the cost (for the flying detector.

https://www.avweb.com/aviation-news/red ... -50-years/

Working in uncontested airspace.

TheSonntag wrote:

https://www.avweb.com/aviation-news/red-sea-drone-attacks-create-first-american-ace-in-50-years/

Working in uncontested airspace.

Interesting, the AV-8 is capable at lower speed when engaging the slower drones where.

bt