Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
Irish ministers under pressure to clarify 'secret deal' for RAF to defend Ireland's airspace in an emergency
GDB wrote:Yeah, you don't have to do anything if nobody expects you to do anything. Ireland isn't the poor country it was 30-40 years ago, it just acts like it is.No, as discussed a lot before, for the same reasons.
If they want to help out as regards their own security, North Atlantic cables etc and the Russian threat to it, Thales have developed a modular sonar system that they could fit to their OPV's. After they find and money and manpower to crew the vessels they actually have .
aumaverick wrote:Irish national pride and further discussion and contention with the N.Ireland/UK/EU border deal probably exposed some details.
aumaverick wrote:In the grand scheme, protecting Irish airspace only benefits the UK given the proximity. Given the Irish neutrality, any conflict that would warrant defending Irish airspace by the RAF would almost certainly involve defense of the UK airspace.
aumaverick wrote:
Not sure F-15 and FA-50 are really a apples to apples comparison, more like a cannon to grenade comparison.
par13del wrote:A bit confused here, Ireland is a member of the EU, now that the Brits have done a Brexit, why is this not front and center for Marcon and the proposed EU military force?
Surely this was included in the Brexit negotiations or was that only about Northern Ireland and a line down the Irish Sea?
par13del wrote:A bit confused here, Ireland is a member of the EU, now that the Brits have done a Brexit, why is this not front and center for Marcon and the proposed EU military force?
Surely this was included in the Brexit negotiations or was that only about Northern Ireland and a line down the Irish Sea?
GDB wrote:par13del wrote:A bit confused here, Ireland is a member of the EU, now that the Brits have done a Brexit, why is this not front and center for Marcon and the proposed EU military force?
Surely this was included in the Brexit negotiations or was that only about Northern Ireland and a line down the Irish Sea?
It was an agreement, albeit somewhat informal, government to government some 70 years ago.
Nothing to do with the EEC/EU or NATO, which Ireland never joined.
par13del wrote:GDB wrote:par13del wrote:A bit confused here, Ireland is a member of the EU, now that the Brits have done a Brexit, why is this not front and center for Marcon and the proposed EU military force?
Surely this was included in the Brexit negotiations or was that only about Northern Ireland and a line down the Irish Sea?
It was an agreement, albeit somewhat informal, government to government some 70 years ago.
Nothing to do with the EEC/EU or NATO, which Ireland never joined.
I recall some of the history, where I am lost or inquiring is whether that agreement was modified / included in the Brexit negotiations and final documents.
The UK has remained a part of NATO which as you say Ireland never joined, so how does the UK under the new Brexit regimes where the UK is now a third party provide any form of military assistance to a EU member state without EU approval, collaboration, involvement etc.
RJMAZ wrote:Ireland is similar to New Zealand. I don't see why Ireland needs fighters. This is reducing the overall capability of NATO by providing unnecessary overlap.
New Zealand has two C-17 and they get combined with the Australian fleet for maintenance. This is the most cost effective way to go.
Ireland could buy two P-8 poseidon like New Zealand did. Make sure they are identical to the RAF aircraft and have all maintenance done by the RAF.
I guess if Ireland need air policing then buying a handful of Hawk T2 trainers and again integrating them with the RAF aircraft make sense.
bunumuring wrote:Hey RJMAZ
NZ does NOT have two C-17s, … not sure where that notion came from?
RJMAZ wrote:bunumuring wrote:Hey RJMAZ
NZ does NOT have two C-17s, … not sure where that notion came from?
Drunk posting on a Saturday night and I saw the word Ireland
But Ireland purchasing two P-8 would be a good idea. All maintenance and training outsourced to the RAF.
They could even arrange for their P-8's along with a couple RAF P-8's to be based in Ireland.
RJMAZ wrote:Ireland is similar to New Zealand.
RJMAZ wrote:I don't see why Ireland needs fighters. This is reducing the overall capability of NATO by providing unnecessary overlap.
RJMAZ wrote:Ireland could buy two P-8 poseidon like New Zealand did. Make sure they are identical to the RAF aircraft and have all maintenance done by the RAF.
RJMAZ wrote:I guess if Ireland need air policing then buying a handful of Hawk T2 trainers and again integrating them with the RAF aircraft make sense.
A101 wrote:Wonder what brought this on?Irish ministers under pressure to clarify 'secret deal' for RAF to defend Ireland's airspace in an emergency
https://news.sky.com/story/amp/irish-mi ... y-12879084
Personally I think it’s something they can afford to do themselves, doesn’t mean they should rush out and order some F35A but would be nice
Plenty of good F15 in the boneyard if they want cheap or even South Korean FA-50 would suffice
Kiwirob wrote:A101 wrote:Wonder what brought this on?Irish ministers under pressure to clarify 'secret deal' for RAF to defend Ireland's airspace in an emergency
https://news.sky.com/story/amp/irish-mi ... y-12879084
Personally I think it’s something they can afford to do themselves, doesn’t mean they should rush out and order some F35A but would be nice
Plenty of good F15 in the boneyard if they want cheap or even South Korean FA-50 would suffice
Why? If anyone is going to cause problems for Ireland they will have to fly over or around the UK, or come across the Atlantic. Next question is who would be causing the problems which would require Ireland to operate armed aircraft?
RJMAZ wrote:But Ireland purchasing two P-8 would be a good idea. All maintenance and training outsourced to the RAF.
They could even arrange for their P-8's along with a couple RAF P-8's to be based in Ireland.
A101 wrote:Kiwirob wrote:A101 wrote:Wonder what brought this on?
https://news.sky.com/story/amp/irish-mi ... y-12879084
Personally I think it’s something they can afford to do themselves, doesn’t mean they should rush out and order some F35A but would be nice
Plenty of good F15 in the boneyard if they want cheap or even South Korean FA-50 would suffice
Why? If anyone is going to cause problems for Ireland they will have to fly over or around the UK, or come across the Atlantic. Next question is who would be causing the problems which would require Ireland to operate armed aircraft?
More the question is why the Russians fly long range bomber aircraft in Irish controlled EEZ airspace with its transponders off, then one asks about ability of the Irish to defend its own national sovereign airspace without asking others to do it and still wanting to remain neutral.
Kiwirob wrote:A101 wrote:Kiwirob wrote:
Why? If anyone is going to cause problems for Ireland they will have to fly over or around the UK, or come across the Atlantic. Next question is who would be causing the problems which would require Ireland to operate armed aircraft?
More the question is why the Russians fly long range bomber aircraft in Irish controlled EEZ airspace with its transponders off, then one asks about ability of the Irish to defend its own national sovereign airspace without asking others to do it and still wanting to remain neutral.
Ask yourself this question, are Ireland and Russia ever likely to be in direct conflict with each other?
A101 wrote :
Once again why should the Irish expect another nation defend the interests of their airspace when they themselves will not spend money to protect their own neutrality?
A101 wrote:Kiwirob wrote:A101 wrote:
Once again why should the Irish expect another nation defend the interests of their airspace when they themselves will not spend money to protect their own neutrality?
A101 wrote:There have also been visits by Russian "research" vessels in the Irish area near undersea cables. Their OPVs don't cut it. Some corvettes with limited AAW and AShW would do the job better. They spend their money on an army, which is probably the service that they least need for defense. Of course, much of that gets reimbursed by the UN, IIRC.Kiwirob wrote:A101 wrote:
More the question is why the Russians fly long range bomber aircraft in Irish controlled EEZ airspace with its transponders off, then one asks about ability of the Irish to defend its own national sovereign airspace without asking others to do it and still wanting to remain neutral.
Ask yourself this question, are Ireland and Russia ever likely to be in direct conflict with each other?
Again, why do the Russians send long range bomber aircraft into Irish EEZ and turn off their transponders?
Whilst direct conflict between the two is very low, indirectly there a greater risk under TEU, Article 42.7, which compels them to come to other members aid, whilst the Irish may see themselves as neutral the opposing belligerent nation may not see it the same way. as we see by Russian provocations in respect to international norms in others respective EEZ
Once again why should the Irish expect another nation defend the interests of their airspace when they themselves will not spend money to protect their own neutrality?
GDB wrote:As an aside to your bit about the vessels.A straight to camera discussion of the history, context and reality of Irish neutrality;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEvhQVj2BNU
There's a saying. 'people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones'.
Stone no.1;
The other nation mentioned in the above, entwined with Irish history, decided in 2010 that the RAF no longer needed MPA's. No biggie, only the NATO member responsible for the Eastern Atlantic. That was reversed in 2015 with an order for the minimum number of P8's to do the role. They also had us start the Ukraine war with for the first time in 50 years, no land based AEW capability. Another 'gap' with too few replacements when they arrive.
Just Ireland 'freeloading' on others for security here?
Stone No.2, This country in a move extensive polling now shows a majority regret, in 2016 decided to undermine the Good Friday Agreement, the politicians responsible showing shocking ignorance (shared it has to be said with a lot of the UK population), if they cared at all, much to the chagrin of the current US administration and Ireland. Pleased Putin though.
This in turn has led to the warned of upsurge in paramilitary activities of both extremes, so if Ireland does spend some more, it's likely going on those ground forces, their Ranger SF, intel and security in general.
Since as I noted before, they regard whatever the leftovers of the IRA call themselves, as 'subversives' and have a history of harness towards them dating back to the 50's.
Mr Farage going on Irish TV to lecture them on their history is a You Tube moment you should seek out!
But what could, should Ireland do, in the context of the situation with Russia?
They have two OPV's, built in the UK in the late 90's, which are laid up.
They need replacing, with two vessels with the easily fitted, modular Sonar set from Thales I mentioned before, plus a helicopter hanger and servicing facilities. Not for a Merlin or NH-90 size, something more affordable.
They could buy some maritime optimized AW139's, a type they already use, or the UK could sell at giveaway prices, 2-3 Lynx Wildcat's, to specs for the South Korean ones, with dipping sonar.
Be worth it for the extra security, less strain on the RN.
As for fast jets? It's, pardon the pun, for the birds. That agreement on AD suits both sides fine.
Though the UK could help by retaining Tranche 1 Typhoons longer for the pure AD role.
You don't need all the bells and whistles of later ones to tell a TU-95 to bugger off.
Ireland did, as part of the GFA, drop it's claims to the North.
Now it's down to demographics and politics, it always was, when things blew up in 1969 the Wilson government sent in the troops to provide a chance for political solutions, they knew getting them out would not be easy nor quick though none could have anticipated for how long.
I knew people who did tours out there, 'out there', god it's part of the UK! It seems not enough did or just forgot.
So in summary, the UK is not the nation to pressure Ireland on spending more or joining NATO.
At least while the current shower are in office.
ReverseFlow wrote:The difference is the new vessels are half the size, slower and have miniscule armament.As an aside to your bit about the vessels.
Ireland is getting 2 from NZ
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c723gj0d70eo
ReverseFlow wrote:GDB wrote:As an aside to your bit about the vessels.A straight to camera discussion of the history, context and reality of Irish neutrality;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEvhQVj2BNU
There's a saying. 'people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones'.
Stone no.1;
The other nation mentioned in the above, entwined with Irish history, decided in 2010 that the RAF no longer needed MPA's. No biggie, only the NATO member responsible for the Eastern Atlantic. That was reversed in 2015 with an order for the minimum number of P8's to do the role. They also had us start the Ukraine war with for the first time in 50 years, no land based AEW capability. Another 'gap' with too few replacements when they arrive.
Just Ireland 'freeloading' on others for security here?
Stone No.2, This country in a move extensive polling now shows a majority regret, in 2016 decided to undermine the Good Friday Agreement, the politicians responsible showing shocking ignorance (shared it has to be said with a lot of the UK population), if they cared at all, much to the chagrin of the current US administration and Ireland. Pleased Putin though.
This in turn has led to the warned of upsurge in paramilitary activities of both extremes, so if Ireland does spend some more, it's likely going on those ground forces, their Ranger SF, intel and security in general.
Since as I noted before, they regard whatever the leftovers of the IRA call themselves, as 'subversives' and have a history of harness towards them dating back to the 50's.
Mr Farage going on Irish TV to lecture them on their history is a You Tube moment you should seek out!
But what could, should Ireland do, in the context of the situation with Russia?
They have two OPV's, built in the UK in the late 90's, which are laid up.
They need replacing, with two vessels with the easily fitted, modular Sonar set from Thales I mentioned before, plus a helicopter hanger and servicing facilities. Not for a Merlin or NH-90 size, something more affordable.
They could buy some maritime optimized AW139's, a type they already use, or the UK could sell at giveaway prices, 2-3 Lynx Wildcat's, to specs for the South Korean ones, with dipping sonar.
Be worth it for the extra security, less strain on the RN.
As for fast jets? It's, pardon the pun, for the birds. That agreement on AD suits both sides fine.
Though the UK could help by retaining Tranche 1 Typhoons longer for the pure AD role.
You don't need all the bells and whistles of later ones to tell a TU-95 to bugger off.
Ireland did, as part of the GFA, drop it's claims to the North.
Now it's down to demographics and politics, it always was, when things blew up in 1969 the Wilson government sent in the troops to provide a chance for political solutions, they knew getting them out would not be easy nor quick though none could have anticipated for how long.
I knew people who did tours out there, 'out there', god it's part of the UK! It seems not enough did or just forgot.
So in summary, the UK is not the nation to pressure Ireland on spending more or joining NATO.
At least while the current shower are in office.
Ireland is getting 2 from NZ
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c723gj0d70eo
GDB wrote:A straight to camera discussion of the history, context and reality of Irish neutrality;
But what could, should Ireland do, in the context of the situation with Russia?
They have two OPV's, built in the UK in the late 90's, which are laid up.
They need replacing, with two vessels with the easily fitted, modular Sonar set from Thales I mentioned before, plus a helicopter hanger and servicing facilities. Not for a Merlin or NH-90 size, something more affordable.
johns624 wrote:What does Ireland spend its money on? I'm being serious. Comparing them with three Scandinavian countries that are only slightly larger in population and with slightly higher personal tax rates, they are known for have good social programs and safety nets, and yet have credible militaries. I'm speaking of Norway, Finland and Denmark. They show that you can spend money on both society and defense.
