Posts: 258
Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2000 1:36 am


Fri Sep 15, 2000 11:24 pm

Just because I am a born again Christian doesn't mean that I can not have an interest in aviation. There are many "born again Christians" in all aspects of life. There are Christian Athlete's, Police, Politicians, Doctors, CEO's, News Reporters and in my case Aircraft Maintenance Technicians. We like the homosexual community and other groups are everywhere, and in every aspect of life. I do love aviation, but I love my God and family more.

God Bless
Posts: 1567
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2000 4:55 pm

RE: Stefano

Fri Sep 15, 2000 11:34 pm

For sure Critter,
I was just joking also because I don't want to turn the non-aviation forum in a hard dispute about sex and religion.
I ensure you that even if I don't agree with you on some things there is something you and someone others said that I agree. You can understand it reading my previous posts in this same topic.


Posts: 258
Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2000 1:36 am

RE: The Gay Thing......What Really Matters

Fri Sep 15, 2000 11:43 pm

One thing is for certain......When we have hashed all of this out until we are sick of the topic, we will most likely agree to disagree. I say that in respect of others beliefs and ideas even though I may not agree and will assuredly say so.

Posts: 2506
Joined: Sat Sep 04, 1999 3:15 am

HIV/AIDS And The Heterosexual Community

Sat Sep 16, 2000 12:06 am

Critter, I am continually amazed at the labeling of HIV and AIDS as gay- or drug-related. This myth has been squelched by the heterosexual community itself. If you research the facts, you will find that the incidence of infection amongst heterosexual men and women is on the rise, while in the gay community, it is on the decline. This is mostly due to HIV and AIDS being spoken of as gay-related; straight people were assured they couldn't become infected. Well, guess what? More and more are finding out the difficult truth. I do agree that being promiscuous increases one's chances of infection, but that's about it. HIV doesn't know boundaries between gay, straight, black, white or anything else.

I myself am not promiscuous. I feel there are consequences to everything; consequences cannot really be labeled good or bad, in my opinion. They are simply the function of actions taken. Where HIV and AIDS are concerned, I do not engage in any risky behaviours that might allow me to be exposed to HIV. Therefore, I really have no fear of it; in fact, I have even less fear of HIV than I do of cancer or any other disease. I know the facts, and I take precautions. That's all there is to it.

Critter also wrote, "...but do you think that it is possible that (God) allowed (HIV) to come about to "cleanse" those who blatently defiy his word in the line of sexual imorality and promescuity?" do you account for children becoming infected through blood transfusions or otherwise? What about people who are infected with HIV by unclean dental instruments, or otherwise? Why would your god punish them? It doesn't make any sense to me. I think you may be focusing too narrowly in this issue.

Whatever you do, DO NOT teach ANYONE that HIV is "God's punishment for the promiscuous" or "God's punishment for homosexual acts." Please do not spread ignorance. That will only lead to further complacency and spread of the virus itself.

Do I know where I am going when I die? Well, I think it is pretty idealistic to think that any of us will stand before God and enter into Paradise (or not). I think my soul will have done its time in this particular plane and will move on to another, higher one. That's what my spirituality has made me aware of. It isn't something I worry about or think about. I accept it as fact, for myself. And that's all there is to it.  
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RE: The Gay Thing......What Really Matters

Sat Sep 16, 2000 1:22 am

I was impressed and encouraged that the tone of this post has been so positive for so long. The important thing is to know, accept, and love yourself for who you are. This is indeed how God loves you. Moreover, God loved you first, and not because of anything you did or did not do. That love cannot change and won't be revoked.

The days of divine retribution have long since passed. When Jesus died on the cross, we became perminently reconciled with God, thus abrigating the need for reward and punishment. The fact Jesus willingly did this in an act of total and selfless love for us is what lies at the center of what it means to be a Christian. We are called to imitate that love in that response.

Finally, the teachings of the Catholic Church require a twofold response to those suffering from HIV/AIDS:

First, we are to be motivated by compassion in caring for those infected by the virus and suffering from the disease. Those afflicted by HIV/AIDS are in need of medical and spiritual care just like anyone else who is sick. They are no different from anyone else.

Secondly, peoples' sexuality is NO ONE'S business. We are not to make judgements about how people became infected by HIV. Generally speaking, I do not ask people as a matter of course unless from a pastoral standpoint I sense it is something they might wish to talk about.

Again, hat's off for a postive thread!

The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy

RE: Brissie

Sat Sep 16, 2000 1:46 am


I am sorry mate, but you made a statement which made a bold statement on who the majority of HIV sufferers are. Gays and IV Drug users. I asked you where you got those figures from and now you are adding to the story.

So what is it to be.

Are the majority of HIV sufferers gay.....IV drug users......straight every day people.......promiscuous straights.......please do tell.

I had to laugh at your comment on African tribal culture. Do you think that sexual promiscuity is only limited to Africa? I think not my friend. Don't you think that the high incidence of AIDS in Africa (in some countries it is estimated over 50% of the adult population are infected), is due to the lack of effective contraception. Did you manage to read any of the reports from the recent AID conference which was held in Durban, South Africa? I suggest you go and read some and then come back and we can have a serious discussion on HIV.

The gay community takes HIV very seriously, and whilst you will always get some people who do not protect themselves, the majority of gays do use protection. Maybe you should talk to the teenagers these days who are having kids at 14-15 (obviously they don't use contraception and are at a risk of contracting HIV).

If you want to continue this discussion, please go ahead, but do not even mention religion. Let's view this one from a scientific viewpoint shall we?
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RE: The Gay Thing......What Really Matters

Sat Sep 16, 2000 3:12 am

The truth is we don't know the actual incidence of HIV. I must emphisise that the 50% figure in Africa is merely an estimate. Some public health people in Africa put the estimates as high as 2/3.

The issue of why HIV has spread so rapidly in Africa does rest in part on cultural values. In many African countries it is a sign of virility to have multiple sexual partners. This in tandem with prevention efforts that have been variously ineffective, underresourced, or simply ignored on the parts of governments, aid organizations and NGO's are the reasons why HIV is the public health disaster that it is.

Prevention is indeed the key to checking the spread of HIV/AIDS, but getting this message out has been an uphill struggle in developing countries for the reasons mentioned above. A man may have unprotected sex with another woman (she may offer him a condom, but often he may refuse), transmit the disease to his wife, and if she becomes pregnant, there is a high probability she will pass the disease on to any children she gives birth to.

Generally speaking, Westerners (regardless of sexual orientation) have taken heed to the warnings of health professionals. In addition, with the advance of powerful antiviral drugs have meant many with HIV can have a quality of life hitherto never imagined. But the drugs are very expensive and it is the poor, both in the developed and the developing world who continue to suffer, because the resources are simply not there to help them.

This leaves few options on how to treat the millions of people in developing countries who are infected, and will eventually contract the disease. That is the real tragedy of AIDS; Those who have adequate insurance or live in a country with a National Health system that can treat them are comparitively better off. It's a horrible disease, but the real tension is not between gay or straight, it's between rich and poor.

The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy
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RE: The Gay Thing......What Really Matters

Sat Sep 16, 2000 3:30 am

If some people would simply spend 10 minutes to get educated about how HIV is transmitted, they would understand that HIV is simply a virus, (not a gay virus, not an African virus, not an IV drug-user virus) and that the only reason it became more prevalent in the gay community is due to a certain sexual act (practiced more often among male homosexuals, but nonetheless practiced in the straight world as well) which is more conducive to HIV transmission because of the mucous membranes and tissues involved. There are similar reasons for the infection rates in other populations. Very simple science. The infection risk of an HIV-infected straight man and a straight woman participating in this act is exactly the same. Doesn't have a damned thing to do with one's sexual orientation.

There are few things I can think of that are more evil and ignorant than to even hint that HIV is some type of punitive scourge. It's clear now that Critter's faith in God is based on fear, not love. If Critter wants to evangelize based on this precept, I don't see much of an incentive, and I'm perplexed how Critter can't understand why most logical folk would not find his message and faith attractive. The message is: Worship God/Christ or risk suffering at the hands of them! Gee, that's real inviting.

An unexamined life isn't worth living.


Sat Sep 16, 2000 4:04 am

G'day Charles

Firstly may I say thanks for presenting a non-judgemental view on this thread (as most others I have seen you post on). This I really do respect you for, plus the fact that I know you are a *religious* man, but do not try to ram it down our throats.

What you presented in your post is exactly what I agree with, and most importantly your point on *the rich and the poor*. This is so true.

If I may for a moment ask you where you stand on the issue of contraception. I don't know what denomination you are, so I really can't get a preconceived idea of this.

Cheers, and thanks again.


RE: The Gay Thing......What Really Matters

Sat Sep 16, 2000 4:26 am

Excellently put, TWFirst.

Critter, if you wish to have a discussion about HIV (which I am fairly well educated on, despite my young age), I suggest you create a new topic after doing some research on it. Until you do, stop labeling it as a gay virus, drug virus, promiscuety (sp?) virus. As was previously said, HIV knows no boundaries. Believe it or not Critter, but as "God-loving" and "righteous" of a person as you are, you're every bit as vulnerable to HIV/AIDS as the homosexual users here you've branded as going to hell.

Your suggestion of HIV as a punishment to those who flagrantly defy "God's word" would be laughable if it weren't so damned offensive! I'm a nonbeliever, I defy "God's word" on a regular basis (Hell- I started a petition in my public school earlier this year with several other athiests to break up the Bible Club, or at least remove school funding for it! 75 signatures were on it when we realized the support wasn't there.), and I honestly have not been to a church service of any type for about five years (aside from once this summer when my grandmother forced me to go, and I brought my CD player). Does this mean I will contract HIV and AIDS? No, I firmly doubt it. I plan on waiting until I'm married to have sex, I don't use any type of drugs, and don't intend to start. To put it simply, there's little to no chance of me contracting it, but, by your reasoning, I should. The only way I could possibly get it is from a blood transfusion, and the risks of that are incredibly low (I believe it's now 2.5 per thousand transfusions, but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong).

And one last question- if AIDS is "God's way of punishing those who flagrantly defy his word," why is your god letting us get so close to a cure?

Just a little food for thought for you, Critter.

By the way- I talked to several friends at school today, and we agreed to pray for a sweeping change of heart in the Critter household.  
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RE: Contraception

Sat Sep 16, 2000 5:49 am

Hello Scotty,

I'll say straight off (no pun intended!) that I'm Catholic, and a seminarian studying for the priesthood. The question you ask is simple. The answer, unfortunately, is less so, particularly in the context of this thread. Therefore, please bear with me.

Use of artificial contraception, particularly as a publich health tool in the prevention of AIDS is something which I struggle with from a moral standpoint. Church teaching, as you can well imagine, is quite explicit in that anything which interferes with the natural process of procreation is clearly forbidden.

That being said, there is a huge gray area which I'm personally not sure is immediately resolvable. If there is something which can potentially slow the spread of debilitating disease (i.e. condoms), while I can't actually condone it, I can't in good conscience condemn it either, particularly if one looks at the the complexities of trying to teach prevention in developing countries. While Church law prevents me from being part of an organization that dispenses condoms, I'm not sure I can morally stand in the way of anyone who does in such a situation, either.

I guess the closest thing I can say on the issue is to quote the late Basil Hume, who as Archbishop of Westminster in London was asked about the use of condoms in developing countries. He stated while there were moral problems with doing so, he stated it has become "regretably necessary" to do so.

I hope this does not sound like I'm trying to obfuscate, or trying to play word games with this issue. While on the one level, I find the casual attitude towards sex (at least in the US) disturbing, and can understand the reasons for church teaching on this level, in terms of HIV/AIDS, until something more effective comes along (like a vaccine) I really struggle with whether distributing condoms or not is doing the greater good.

Again apologies for being vague, but it's a tough question that I can't give a yes or no answer to...


The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy
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RE: N-156F

Sat Sep 16, 2000 5:51 am

People like you give me hope for the future of our country. You've created a flawlessly written, extremely logical post. Unfortunately, it's sad that your writing and communication skills are so superior to many users here that are older and supposedly wiser.

If I were your age and went to your high school, I'd be proud to call you my friend.

Thank you for a most excellent post.
An unexamined life isn't worth living.
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RE: The Gay Thing......What Really Matters

Sat Sep 16, 2000 6:24 am

Charles I guess you have never been to other parts of the world. The U.S. does NOT have a casual attitude towards sex. For the most part, Americans are very uptight when it comes to sex. When there's sex on t.v. we cover the kids eyes etc. There is a very high level of sexual curiosity in the U.S. In Europe people are much more open about talking about sex and that reflects in their low rates of HIV infection and teenage pregnancy. There are condoms on huge billboards, and television commercials which are factual and interesting. I hate to say this, but anal sex is a high infection risk sexual activity. (Why do you think suppositories are so effective? They enter the bloodsteam immediately.) AIDS is NOT a gay disease, but those who engage in anal sex (both homosexuals and heterosexuals) are at a higher risk of contracting the disease.

N-156F: Why would you start a petition to break up the bible club? Perhaps next time you're in a church you could refrain from using a portable cd player, as a common courtesy to others. It is nice to see that you enjoy defying God's word, but you obviously don't understand how separation of church and state works. A bible or christian club on a public campus is in the realm of an acceptable organization, provided the district does not endorse it, or prohibit a similar organization. Your "petition" would never work, even in an ultra-liberal district.
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RE: The Gay Thing......What Really Matters

Sat Sep 16, 2000 6:50 am


Just to clear a few things up...

First off, I am American, born in LA, grew up in Seattle, and now living in Chicago.

I have also lived in Europe and have travelled extensively there, as well also spending time in the Middle East, and Nigeria.

I agree with you on one level Americans do display a rather prudish attitude towards sex, however at the same time, the rate in which couples engage in sex outside of marriage is extremely high. Survey after survey, particularly of teens and young adults say they have had sex at least once, and some, more often than that. Sex has also become a constant theme in the popular culture; one can argue it always has been, however today it is relatively more explicit, with artists such as Madonna, and the popularity of television shows such as Loveline on MTV, and Sex in the City on HBO.

I do however agree with you that (and yes, I am generalizing) Europeans do display a somewhat more 'open' attitude towards sex that admittedly varies by country, but can't say the extent to which people engage in casual sex there.

Finally, if you read my posts above carefully, I took great pains to say AIDS was NOT a gay disease, and went out of my way to make sure I did not do so.

In short, I stand by my comments.

The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy

RE: The Gay Thing......What Really Matters

Sat Sep 16, 2000 7:03 am

TWFirst- have I redeemed myself from the embarrassing bit I put up about removing this forum? (gulp)  

Ben88- I put up the petition with several friends of mine who were offended by the Bible Club's continual announcements, and the fact that school funding went into it. It's clearly a violation of seperation of church and state, however, since I live in good ol' JAX, FL, as conservative as they come short of Alabama itself, if those of us who were offended even presented the signed petition to the principal, we would've been expelled on the spot, along with likely everyone who had signed. They couldn't kick us out of Duval District Schools, but they could easily have forced us off to a different one. Even if we had succeeded, you can bet your tailpipe that we would've had the bigoted, hatemongering pastor from the big Baptist church downtown labeling us all as "children of Satan."
As for the CD player, I was quite unhappy with my grandmother at that point in time, as I'd decided to tell her I didn't believe in God. She blew up in a fit of rage, continually screamed that her grandson was going to hell, and she had to fix that problem, then proceeded to tell me that I was either going to church with her that Sunday (my last day up there), or I would never be allowed back in her house. I went, grudgingly, and was really not out to appear ignorant and hateful, but more to embarass her publicly. I wore small, discreet earbuds (not big headphones), and didn't have my music up too loud. You'd have to have known I was listening to a CD player to figure it out. I haven't talked to my grandmother since then, however, and the fact that she isn't returning my calls, but my grandfather is, has me more than just a bit worried...
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RE: The Gay Thing......What Really Matters

Sat Sep 16, 2000 7:06 am

Sorry Charles, the "aids is not a gay disease" quote was not directed to you, it was a general comment. I apologize for not elaborating on that. I agree with you on the fact that sexual promiscuity is a major problem in our country. Kids are confused because they are told sex is "bad" but their role models prance around in sexually promiscuous outfits and sing lyrics that contain enough sexual innuendos to fill an olympic size swimming pool. That is where the problem lies, sex is the most popular and least talked about thing in our society. Respectfully,
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RE: N-156F

Sat Sep 16, 2000 7:10 am

Was that you? Forgot about that. I can't keep all these aircraft registration number user names straight  .

Yes, you've more than made up for that. Now don't suggest something that stupid again or I'll have to change my mind   .

Later dude.

An unexamined life isn't worth living.
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RE: The Gay Thing......What Really Matters

Sat Sep 16, 2000 7:11 am

OK. I can't believe that I didn't respond to this post for over 48hrs - because when replying to this very post last time I destroyed my laptop. I drove 6hrs today to home and now have a computer in front of me that works.

I must confess I did not have the patience to read all the post since Scotty's second post about AIDS. Anyways....

AIDS is a very hot topic in my mind, and one that is continually being brought to the forefront of my attention due to situations imposed on me.

Up until he mentioned AIDS, I could (even tho I didn't agree with it) understand where Critter was coming from. But then he lost me.

You are one spiteful man if what you imply is what you mean.... are you saying that IV-drug users and Gay people are getting their comeuppance by getting infected with HIV? Do you have any idea of the actual figures??? There have been 40 million infections to date since the epidemic was first diagnosed in early 1981 by the CDC in Atlanta. (The word AIDS appeared at around this time too from the same source.)

Only 10 million of these infected people come from the western world. This would mean, by default, that (I am telling you this, not suggesting) 30 million people in developing countries have been infected with AIDS. (By the way, only one in ten infections is known about, so the figure could be around 400 million in total, but the figures may never be known) These people are not Gay, they are not IV-drug users. Their only crime is being born into a nation that cannot or will not acknowledge the existence and/or treatments for HIV.

For what it's worth, there is no acceptable reason for ANY faith or creed or anything else to choose to ignore / downright deny the existence of HIV. The fact that it shouldn't have gotten the way it did is irrelevant, but now it is here AND ON OUR DOORSTEPS, God will not help.... he is letting everyone pick up the pieces. You cannot bury your head in the sand, or say that there are reasons why they deserve it. That, I am afraid, is the ultimate sin.

If you say that AIDS cures Homosexuality, to coin a frequently heard phrase in my world, then you are the worst type of human being on this planet. If you do not do anything about it, (this doesn't include being empathetic) then you are almost as bad.

I apologize if I am rambling, but I really am steaming thru the roof, and had I not busted my laptop the first time then it would certainly be busted now. Meanwhile I don't know how anyone who says such things as those I mentioned above can sleep at night.


N 8 6 3 D A
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RE: The Gay Thing......What Really Matters

Sat Sep 16, 2000 7:26 am

Now, how about a good piece of news about HIV y'all! (that's for you, N863DA  )

I am involved in a three-year Phase III clinical trial for an HIV vaccine!!! It's been over a year now, two more to go. Evidently, the results thus far are very promising. It's called "VaxGen". From here on out, every six months, I get injected with either a placebo or the vaccine (it's a blind study, neither me nor the administrator know which it is), and then blood is drawn and tested for antibodies. At the end of the study, we will be told whether we got the placebo or the vaccine. If the FDA approves the vaccine, and if I received the placebo, I get the vaccine free.

Unfortunately, the vaccine will only work for HIV negative individuals. It won't work on those already infected with HIV. But I could possibly get immunity to HIV!!! COOL!!!! And then I can have butt sex all I want, because everyone knows that's what being gay is all about: evil, perverted butt sex. All day long. Every day. Butt sex here, butt sex there, here a butt, there a butt....


OK, I think it's time to call it quits. I'm getting loopy

See y'all later.  
An unexamined life isn't worth living.

RE: The Gay Thing......What Really Matters

Sat Sep 16, 2000 8:01 am

TWFirst- I'm disappointed! N-156F isn't a reg. number- it's the prototype for the classic F-5 Freedom Fighter! Shame on you!
Now my ego's been hurt. I might have to suggest removing the forum again to boost it!  
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RE: N-156F

Sat Sep 16, 2000 8:05 am

Of course. Sorry Ben. How could I have been so stupid!?! Must have had butt sex on the mind or something. Butt sex, butt sex, butt sex. Sorry, but I just like saying that: butt sex. Almost as fun as "Hawaiian Lesbian Wedding."


Oh god, I really have to go home.

Anyway, didn't mean to hurt your ego. Sorry again  .
An unexamined life isn't worth living.
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RE: The Gay Thing......What Really Matters

Sat Sep 16, 2000 8:28 am

N-156F, when you talk about big downtown Baptist church, you are referring to Jacksonville's First Baptist Church, right? I didnt want to read all the long posts on this thread, so what are we arguing about here?

RE: The Gay Thing......What Really Matters

Sat Sep 16, 2000 8:50 am

DeltaRNOmd-80, yes, I'm referring to First Baptist Church, and more specifically, Jerry Vines, who appears to be well on his way to becoming every bit as hateful as the late Homer "Hate-all" Lindsay was, and more. I believe the best way to summarize what we're talking about here- this began as a discussion on why homosexuals shouldn't have to explain their position in life, then Critter chimed in and said basically everyone is going to hell, then many others fought back, then Critter said that AIDS was God's cure for homosexuality (remind anyone but me of the "Final Solution"?), then...
Oh, screw it. Read the damn thread.  
N863DA, TWFirst, please e-mail me. I'd like to discuss something with both of you, and you both have your e-mails withheld! D'oh!
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RE: The Gay Thing......What Really Matters

Sat Sep 16, 2000 9:18 am


Thanks for the clarification. What you describe is pretty much what I'm talking about when I mentioned casual attitudes toward sex. Very strange juxtaposition...


Good luck on the study. Here's hoping the vaccine is effective, and that it will be inexpensive enough to distribute to developing countries.

The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy
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RE: The Gay Thing......What Really Matters

Sat Sep 16, 2000 9:48 am

Oooooooh this is fun!!!!! I like long posts........!  
And BTW, That's an extremely interesting piece of news, TWFirst!   Whooooops! Excuse me, I've got a wedgie to pick...(pick pick...) OK That's better......(sigh)..Phew.........ahhhhhhh...eeeeeeeeshhhhhhh! I think I had too much Jolt Cola........

I am a teapot sh......(faints)
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RE: The Gay Thing......What Really Matters

Sun Sep 17, 2000 10:39 am


Aaron G.
Posts: 1244
Joined: Thu Oct 28, 1999 10:52 am


Sun Sep 17, 2000 1:11 pm

why are you calling ben gay? i know him, and i've met his girlfriend before. he's not a girl either. maybe your in denial.
If you don't chew Big Red, then @#$% you.

Please Stop!

Sun Sep 17, 2000 5:41 pm

Can't you see what you are doing, people? This thread was started to spread a message of equlity, self-acceptance, and love. And look what has happened! Gays on this forum were finally beginning to feel that they were being accepted, and LOVED, for who they were! And it really looked like they were, until someone has to go and PASS JUDGEMENT on them! Then all hell breaks loose and look what we have now!

Let me give you guys an AWAKENING!!!!!!  

I have formed my own believe on God and how the universe works. And let me tell you how the pieces of the puzzle fit in my world!
When you are born, what happens in your life is already planned. God has already set up the hurdles and the accomplishemnts for you. You must overcome them. To me, life is a test. If you can roll with the punches, laugh, joke, and open your heart, you will succeed in life, and you will be rewarded, and it doesn;t matter what color your hair is, what race you are from, what beliefe you hold or sexual prefernce you are, we are all equal!!! The the sad thing is, to me we are all equal in the eyes of God, but not to each other? Why? Because we are scared. Simple as that, we are scared. We are afraid of something or someone different from us. We are afraid to accept something that we just don't understand. We are small-minded, and it takes those bold few to open their hearts to embrace the new and unique with genuine acceptance!

Simply, we as humans are afraid to accept something or someone different. And so we simply label that person as not normal, not one of "us", no HUMAN, and treat that person as such!  

You do not need to be scared! Open your heart!
If you can only open your mind, embrace the new, learn from people and learn about people! Welcome people into your heart!
Don't you see, you people who say that God hates Gays, or God hates Blacks, or God hates Asians,
All you are doing is hurting yourselves!

I may not seem very peotic here, but please, take it for what it's worth, learn to love, and love to learn. Learn to accept and accept to learn. Open your heart, and others will do the same for you. And you will find out what ture happiness is, because all.

Please think about that.

I hope I didn't offend anyone, but the message must be sent!!!

To all gays, lesbians, hetros, blacks, browns, yellows and blues, to all cultures of the world, to everyone of every stature, every walk of life, please read:


        D 8-) 9-P ()-)


RE: The Gay Thing.....N-156F

Sun Sep 17, 2000 6:49 pm

Hi Ben, (and all the other great open minded people out there!)

Your post about how you feel on this subject was a truly inspiring one - to have you, not on the team, but batting for us (sorry!, had to say it!!!) makes a big difference to me.. thank you for caring!


Re: Southpacific

Sun Sep 17, 2000 10:49 pm

Thank you. That was beautiful and totally what i wanted this post to be. I had almost given up and thought that a truly positive "gay" post was impossible, but you redeemed it. So thanks again.



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RE: The Gay Thing......What Really Matters

Thu Sep 21, 2000 12:50 pm

hmmm.. what a ___long____ post!

this is my first visit to non-aviation... what a treat! I really enjoyed the first part of the thread... being gay, I had no clue I had such good company around here...

then I got to the part where scripture is quoted and the meaning of the bible is "interpreted". I get exhausted reading that stuff--

god is love, god is understanding ,god is Good Orderly Direction, and his creations are just the way he wants them... that pretty much sums up my belief system.

anyway, just happy to see how much family is here!
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RE: The Gay Thing......What Really Matters

Thu Sep 21, 2000 11:01 pm

Great post! Great people!

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Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos