This time in a cafe , in hafia, 15 injured and hamas and jihad both saying they did it and the bomber died.

I know israelies havent been saints but terrorism form either side is unwelcome and is unjustified and if these people think that allah is going to praise them for trying to kill innocent civilians then they have another thing coming.

frankly, i hope northern ireland doesnt go this way, thats down to region and land as well.

Cause: Bomb destorys Jerusalem Sbarro and kills 15 people.
Effect: Israel removes Palestinian Authority presence from Jerusalem and nearby suburbs.

Cause: Bomb injures 15 Israelis in Haifa.
Effect: ? (Perhaps, Israel removes Palestinian Authority presence from... Palestine (?))

Can you see how this terror campaign only is working against the Palestinian goals of establishing an autonomous state?

rgds
russ

Hi there,
cause: Israeli Occupation since the
creation of a Jewish statehood in the
heart of Arab lands
effect: Palestenian Arabs resist/reject that
occupation with all they have got.
Isn't this the bigger picture?
Regards
Advanced

Cause: Mister Sharon takes away their homes.

Effect: The Palestinians resort to terrorism to win a war that they could not otherwise win.

Cause: Mister Sharon kills Palestinian terrorists/"heroes."

Effect: Palestinians resort to more terrorist attacks.

The End: Nothing achieved by either side.

The "eye for an eye" must stop.

Again: Did the jews live in "Palestine" before any "Palestinians"? YES
Does that give them the right to take all the land from the "Palestinians"? NO
Does that mean both sides should compromise? YES

Now, for the first time in the 53 year history of the "Palestinian" nation they have a piece of land (courtesy of the State of Israel) that is theirs and only theirs, but they are a little greedy, they want to kill all Israelis and have all the land for themselves.
Who is the one that rejects any compromise in general?
Many of you will get the answer wrong, the right answer is the "Palestinians", even a radical Israeli leader like Sharon is not against having a Palestinian country, the Palestinian Authority (not the Hamas or the Jihad), stated that they want to have the whole "Palestine" for themselves. If that's what they wanted all along, why did they sign all those agreements that clearly state that their ultimate goal is to live in peace with jews in the middle east? Sounds like something a bunch of back-stabbing liars and murderers would do.

FYI, Israel decided not to retaliate for the latest attack.

BTW, tomorrow is going to be a Palestinian "Day of rage", the events of recent days would certainly give the "Palestinians" a lot of reasons to be angry at Israelis, huh?

LY744.

Right now, I am so sick of hearing about these bombings, I just think the world's nations should gather together and just nuke the area of Israel. Make it a wasteland, so that nobody will want to live there. That will solve all the problems.
Although I am only joking about the nuking issue, I feel that both sides have done really stupid things in the past that have put them in the place they are today.
1. Sharon's visit to the Temple Mount.
I am sorry, but that is like trying to put out a fire with gasoline.
2. The violent aspects of Jihad
When the concept of Jihad was created, there was nothing suggesting violence. The original purpose of Jihad is like that of missionairies: to convert everybody to Islam.
3. Bombings from both sides that injure innocent civilians.
Look, why kill innocent civilians when they have done nothing to harm you or your cause. Shouldn't these attacks be focused on Israeli Military Bases and Palestinian arms depots?

In order to truly have peace, I propose the following:
1. The Arabs allow Jews to create a monument of some kind to honor the temple mount, and to allow Jews to be able to worship there in peace.
2. Israel should open up the Gaza Strip, and open up the Gaza airport.
3. Both sides should encourage settlers to interact with one another and to learn about each other's religions.
4. A new flag to be created to show the unity of the Jewish and Muslim religions.

Although I am with the Palestinians on this, I think you misunderstand what 'Jihad' means. Jihad = Holy War - it is the fact that in Islam violence is acceptable if it is in the name of Allah (SWT). So 'Jihad' is inherently violent to start with.

Israel took nothing from the Palestinians. It was the British and later the UN who caused the problems in the region by drawing up the borders of the nations there as they did in 1948.
The sad truth is that both (ethnic) Jews and Palestinians are correct in claiming the area as their homeland. They both are at home there, they are the same ethnic group. The only difference between them is religion, and both their religions preach tollerance to others. Islam even has a strict rule against launching a Jihad (holy war) against Jews or Christians, this because Mohammed was sheltered by them while on his journeys when other groups would drive him out.

Sahron hasnt helped but arafat has given these terrorists permission to attack israel and now because of his dithering and inabilities, the peace process is going down the pan.

israel hasnt helped by increasing the settlements, but this happened after the Pa couldnt cope with putting down hamas and others.

"Bombings from both sides that injure innocent civilians.
Look, why kill innocent civilians when they have done nothing to harm you or your cause. Shouldn't these attacks be focused on Israeli Military Bases and Palestinian arms depots?"

-Palestinian attacks are aimed at civilians.
-A sad fact is that Palestinian terrorists cannot do anything about the IDF, so they resort to killing innocent civilians, although even when it comes to soldiers, they aren't exactly there by choice.

"3. Both sides should encourage settlers to interact with one another and to learn about each other's religions.
4. A new flag to be created to show the unity of the Jewish and Muslim religions."

-The whole point of the peace process is to separate the two nations.

LY744.

I don't think that the violence there will ever stop. And I am with Israelis on this one, although I don't admire palestinian homes being destroyed.

Israelis attack Palestinians to get even, the Palestinians attack again to get even and that goes on for how long now???

A lot is to do about Jerusalem. If you asked me Jerusalem should become an independent city neither a part of Israel nor Palestina. After all it is the center of 3 mayor Religions, it shouldn't be right to fight about that, so just make it some sort of Vatican City.

And if they don't. Well peace should come eventually the question is how long will it take?

Interesting suggestion, OO-VEG, I doubt it would happen though. Anyways, considering the fact that it is a world center for the 3 major religions, I'd rather a democratic country like Israel, have the control over it.

FYI, the Palestinian leadership completely denies any connection between the Jewish religion and Jerusalem!!!
Some Palestinian groups (not your regular terrorist organizations), actually try to physically destroy the jewish holy site in Jerusalem.

LY744.

LY744, I never said that the bombings were not aimed at civilians.

You made it sound like both Israel and the "Palestinians" are acting the same way, which they don't.
Israel has been targeting arms depots, weapon and ammunition production centers etc. We all know who the Palestinian authority and terrorist organizations (nowadays it gets difficult to tell the difference between the two) have been targeting.

LY744.

About making Jerusalem an independent city, that is actually an option that isn't on the table...neither side wants that, and it is currently the capital city of Israel. No nation just gives up its capital city, and the Palestinians are sure not gonna see it an independent city.

This is terrible stuff. I do not condone any terrorist acts on innocent civilians for any reason whatsoever.

What's appaling is I don't honestly believe the violence will stop until Israel is forced to seriously decimate the Palestinians. I know this sounds awful but the Palestinians are certainly not winning any friends with terrorist acts, the only purpose it serves is to force Israel to retaliate. Maybe Israel should ship the lot of them over the border to see how they fare in the other Arab states?

I can see no end to the violence for some time. It will continue to happen until a major war breaks out in the Middle East.

BTW - I understand both sides concerns and plights and am not on any side with this issue.

I think I'll say something about this, uh, situation.

These people have been fighting over the same land for 3000 (+/-500) years. They are just not going to stop. It's already confusing to me that there are around 5 different sects of Christianity that fight each other over how the other interprets the bible.

Why can't some country with access to nuclear weapons annihilate that region of the world so that no one can fight over holy lands that aren't there?  

Obviously I'm not serious, I simply wonder if it's possible to get bored with war and bloodshed. Peace is not something that can just happen. These people don't really want it, they just want the other groups out of their homeland!

Can we all just get along!!

It always amazes me that the US is quick to criticise the Palestinians for bombing Israel but when the IRA detonates a bomb in London like it did a week back (near my apartment) then nobody in the US seems to give a sh*t. It's double standards if you ask me.....

The U.S. international politics is a system of double standards. Only interfere where there is some good involved for the U.S....nevermind, not gonna get into that, a whole nother topic.

Someoneone here in this forum mentioned our
tax dollars being poured into that part of the
world. I wonder what would it be like if the US
would stop giving aid to Israel and it's neighbors.
Any thoughts on this?
Regards.
Advanced

Advancedkid:
>I wonder what would it be like if the US
would stop giving aid to Israel and its neighbors.

Israel will no longer have its way and will have to stop expanding and building estates & country clubs in Palestinian settlements.
Peace just might be achieved if Israel knew that they were no longer guaranteed US aid.

If the U.S betrayed isreal they would just ally with the PRC. and superfly before the war of 1949 most of isreal was in palestinian hands and jerusalem was international hands but the arabs could not stand the small paches of jewish areas so you INVADED the jewish state. and why do you say Isreal is wrong they won these areas fair and square.

The proposal to make Jeruzalem an independent city was put forwards in a Tom Clancy book. It has religious merit but will indeed be unacceptable to hotheads on either side in the conflict (and those are the ones causing the trouble as it is so they are the ones who should accept it first).

Superfly probably did never read the true history of the region, but only the "politically correct" versions now generally available that were created in the 1970s to make sure OPEC would like the west enough to start shipping oil again.

I am disgusted with Europe's response to this. We all can see the atrocious way in which Israel is behaving and in Europe we criticise them but we never put our money where our mouth is. I would like to see Britain take the lead and send troops to the region to try to maintain peace, or at least provide a safe area for the Palestinians. Otherwise it shows we have not learnt from WW2, Rwanda, Indonesia etc

there are safe areas they are called jordan,egypt,syria,and lebanon.

Europe wont do anything because it doesnt know whether to back the palestianians as it wants to or back the israelies which is the Americanand seemingly British position, therefore it cant do anything.

The idea of european peacekeeepers cant occur until the WEU-lead new rapid reaction force starts, though what this force will do is anyone's guess.

Making Jerusalem independent would mean massive peackeepers to protect it from the israelies and from palestine who both want control.

you could make the actual sites independent but that wouldnt achieve much.

I think the best thing is that israel stops the settling on the west bank and agrees with palestine that it gets to keep the whole of Jerusalem in exchnage for further land and rights.

The one thing that would turn this into something very major is arafat declaring Palestine to be an independent state, if this happens then the arab world would scream blue murder every time israel raids the west bank because it would be seen as a rape of soverinity.

its the one big stick arafat could you to get what he wants from the israelies, he could likely say he wont make palestine fully independent but he wants xxxxx.

If hamas stopped their attacks israel wouldnt be able to fight back and their is scope for peace talks and give or take but neither will do that while israel steps up the settlement of palestine land and arafat doesnt stops hamas and jihad.

the west bank and gaza strip were taken over from invading forces! why do the israelies have to leave. they did not invade it they took it over to protect itself from the hostale nations of syria jordan and egypt.

Any thoughts of what would happen if the US
quit foreign aid to Irael and it's neighbors?
I personally dissagree of any tax dollars going
to foreign governments anywhere.
Kindest regards
Advanced

Ryan, should the EU also provide a safe area for the IRA and ETA?
Those are also legitimate representatives of oppressed peoples by your apparent definition.

Superfly: I give up. I don't want you to explain your position, like I've been asking you to do for the past few days.
You said that the only US presidents that wanted peace in the ME were Jimmy Carter and George Bush. Both of them weren't re-elected. FYI, the Oslo agreement, which was the base for the peace process between Israel and the PLO (the Palestinians have been trying to violate as many parts of that agreement as they possibly could) was signed in 1993, the peace agreement between Israel and Jordan was signed in 1995. Both of them were signed during Clinton's first term, as you know, he was re-elected (probably because he was backed by the Zionist Media, right?).

Interesting fact is, that when Israel was giving the Sinai back to Egypt they had to force some jewish settlers to leave Sinai. Ariel Sharon, which was still a general in the IDF at the time, was personally responsible for that.
Maybe that's why the Israelis have been so stuborn when it comes to settlers.

What would happen if Israel would stop getting financial aid from the US?
-The Israelis would start selling weapons to China and other countries they couldn't sell weapons to before. Remember that AWACS system that the Americans prevented Israel from selling to China? How much money do you think they would make out of it?
-The US would lose an allie in the ME.
Israel is fully self-sufficient.

Arafat already declared "Palestine" an independent state. That was part of one of the agreements signed with Israel.

I'm also disgusted with Europe's response.

The Gaza strip, Sinai, West Bank, East Jerusalem, and the Golan Heights, were taken over by Israel in the war of 1967 (the six-day war). The west bank served as a base for "Palestinian" terrorists (like it is today), and was a source of attacks on Israeli civilians ever since the state of Israel was created (1948). If you look on a map of the region, you will see that the West bank is elevated above the rest of Israel, which made it a great area for firing artilery on Israel, just like the Golan Heights.
When the peace agreement between Israel and Egypt was signed in 1979, the Egyptians wanted the Sinai back but not the Gaza strip (no wonder).

LY744.

Hi there,
If Israel were self-reliant, why do they need
US aid in billions of Dollars annually? Isn't Israel
on top of the US list of aid recepients?
Does the US need Israel or vice versa
and how so?
Thanks.
Advanced

Sure, it is much better for Israel to have the US as an allie and get the financial aid from them. Still, there are strict limits on Israel, for example: Israel can only use the US money to buy mil equipment from the US. Also, as I mentioned before, Israel is denied the opportunity to make money by selling military-oriented equipment to some countries.
If the US would dump Israel, it wouldn't be able to make up all that money by selling weapons, but they deffinetely wouldn't go bankrupt.
Anyways, I think the US is affraid that Israel would go "out of control" if they will not depend on the US anymore. If it wasn't for US pressure, the IAF would try to destroy the Iraqi scud launchers during the gulf war.

Actually, appart from the actual a/c airframes and engines, Israel is capable of producing all the military hardware it needs by itself.

LY744.

Advancedkid:
...because Israel is not self-reliant. If they were, they would have no need for lobbyist (gangsters) like AIPAC practically holding a gun to every US Senator and Representative daring them to ever question our Middle East policy. I see no point in arguing with some people on this forum about this issue because they are fixed on accusing anyone who questions our Middle East policy as anti-Semitic.
I've been accused of being anti-Semitic and hating Jews on this forum. Nevermind the fact that I not only voted, but also worked on the campaigns of Diane Feinstein (D-CA), Barbara Boxer (D-CA), Howard Berman (D-CA), and Tom Lantos (D-CA) who is a Holocaust survivor. I was very enthusiastic when Al Gore chose Joseph Leiberman as vice-presidential candidate. I voted for the Gore/Leiberman ticket in 2000. I have consistently voted for pro-Israel candidates because of other issues I agree with them on. There are much more important issues to me that affect me more than the Israel/Palestine conflict. I call things as I see it. Our government is just too cozy with a very militant anti-Palestinian government.

I want to see peace in the Middle East just as everyone else would. Making Jerusalem independent would be the most logical solution.

BTW, Arguing in favor of the Palestinians is very politically incorrect .

Hi there,
I really agree with you. I have been
following the lastest developments
and one could see, the Palestenians
are actually FOR an independant
and nutral Jerusalem. The Arabs
always been in favor of having
UN-observers of the situation,
--something Israel won't let happen,
One would like to know, "why not?"
Again, if Israel were self-reliant just
as LY744 is claiming and that it
could produce all it's needed hardware
on it's own, then why does it still need
to get aid to "buy" certain items from the
United States under the aid umbrella?
If the US thinks Israel could go out
of control without having to be "bribed"
with our tax Dollars, then I think the
US is probably right. However, there are
other means to force Israel or any other
country to keep it's hands for itself, be it
our ally or not.
Kindest regards.
Advancedkid

Israel does not trust the U.N because they never helped them when they were under attack

The arabs have been always for UN observers because the UN observers were always on their side!
The kidnapping of the 3 Israeli soldiers from the border with Lebanon a few months ago is a great example, if people wouldn't ignore it, of course.
The UN observers witnessed the hezbollah attack, video taped it, and did nothing to help the Israeli soldiers. More than that, they never said anything, and hid the tape, which probably prevented the Israelis from finding the soldiers. Some people say, the UN observers knew about the planned attack before it happened.

Israel is an important arms sales market for the US, even if the US is the one paying for it, it benefits US companies greatly. Israel is practically forced to buy hardware from the US.

Now, it looks to me like you don't think Israel is as self-sufficient as I say, why don't you tell me which items you do not think Israel is capable of producing by itself?
Obvious ones would be oil, and jet engines.
Can you think of any others?

The Palestinians are in favour of destroying Israeli holy sites in Jerusalem. They are not in favour of making Jerusalem a neutral city. Arafat has promissed his people that Jerusalem will be "Palestine's" capitol. He knew that will never happen, no matter what PM Israel has.

LY744.

Like LY744 said, this conflict is a great market to try out and sell expensive weapon systems. And the media benefits too.
Keep them alone and this terror will come to an end with a better solution than just this Eye for an Eye bullshit.

Advancedkid & P&M:
Did you read that non-sense above? (LY & pdx)
That sort of absolutist reasoning buy the pro-Israel people is counter-productive to peace.
>Israel does not trust the U.N because they never helped them when they were under attack
One has to wonder. Why should the UN defend a nation that continues to provoke attacks? The United Nations is made up of a body of more than 150 Nations. I guess the whole world is on the wrong side?  
>The Palestinians are in favour of destroying Israeli holy sites in Jerusalem
That is the biggest load of dookie I have heard in this argument!
>Israel is an important arms sales market for the US, even if the US is the one paying for it, it benefits US companies greatly. Israel is practically forced to buy hardware from the US.
That's because we have a lot of military hawks that hasn't realized that the 'Cold War' is over. They have an 'Industrial Military Complex' which Dwight Eisenhower warned us about more than 40 years ago. Their vision of building an economy is by making weapons and making sure that we always have an enemy to justify it.

This is a never-ending argument that just goes on and on! This could lead us to WWIII! No one knows how it will be fought, but WWIV will be fought with sticks and stones!

I am done with this thread!

in the six day war there were no U.N troops there. in the yom kippur war there were no U.N troops. did israel start these wars, NO! and the world did not even take notice but when some arabs are in trouble here comes the U.N. and why, because the arabs have OIL! thats why

>because the arabs have OIL! thats why
Palestinians don't have any oil either.  

but the palestinians are backed by arab nations that do. and i was refering to the wars of arab aggression

The sad thing about this story is that a lot of innocent people have to pay the price with their lives . Obviously the human race is closer to the stone-age than to the year 2001. We should have learned more from our own history. Progress needs agreement, and not a price.

Oh, tell me about it!
Alot of people pay the price with their
lives because the US pays for all that to happen.
But it's all business as usual.
However to achieve peace would be do dissarm
the entire region, i.e. strip the middle-east
from all sorts of fire arms. Impose weapon's
inspections a la Iraq and stop any foreign
aid to any government anywhere, let alone
the crazy middle east.
Obviously, the modern day jewish nation
has almost nothing to do with the biblical one.
Other opinions welcome.
Regards.
Advanced

Advancedkid for President in 2004 ! ! !


That is the smartest thing I've heard on this entire issue! What more could be said? This topic over with as far as I am concerned.

Superfly, your'e just like the Palestinians! They like to declare cease-fires after a major bombing against Israel, and they are the first ones to violate them (the next day, usually). So are you, you just love having the last word, don't you?
You want to see the "biggest load of dookie"? Browse through your posts! Your ignorance and refusal to consider other peoples arguments is amazing. Palestinians have been trying to dig a tunnel several feet away from the only remaining part of the jewish temple, experts agree that if the the Israeli authorities didn't stop that project (they didn't have any permits of course, they usually don't bother to get building permits and after the Israelis stop their projects they bring in the camera crews), the wall would have collapsed. The reason why they could even start such a project without being noticed at first, is that someone, a few hundred years ago decided to build a mosque over the ruins of the jewish temple. Palestinians have attacked jewish worshipers at the same place several times.
Now your'e saying that you would like to see peace in the middle east. Have you changed your mind in the last few days? What about the post in which you say that you are not sorry for Israelis dying in bombings because they don't belong there in the first place (which is an absolutely ignorant statement)?
The UN is fully responsible for creating the State of Israel where it is today. Should the Israelis be the ones dying for a wrongful (in your opinion, anyway) decision of some politicians?

Apparantley, Superfly and Advancekid have stopped reading my posts after a while, huh? Are you offended by the truth?

LY744.

Hi there,
The UN made one heck of a big mistake
about 50 years ago recognizing the newly
declared "Jewish" state dubbed "Israel",
and for that it should be held responsible.
The Arabs of that area, i.e. the "Palestenians",
before the formation of "moderntime Israel",
always consisted of Muslims, Jews and Christians,
and always co-existed in peace WITHOUT
social or cultural barriers.
It wasn't until the arrival of allien European
Jews that the problems started.
Isn't this all true and clear in the history books?
If we really need peace in the world, then
the US should deny aid to any government.
Aid should only be given to refugees and peoples
torn by natural disasters rather than man-made
conflicts.
May I rest my case?
Kindest regards.
Advanced

you mean the holocuast survivors

What happened to the Jews during the holocaust was horrible. However, their mistreatment of Palestinians is horrible too.
I am disturbed by LY744s assertion that all Palestinians think the same and are terrorist. Advencekid, Superfly and P&M have very valid points just as the entire UN body. Pro-Israeli forces in the US as well as the hotheads in charge in Israel can't accept the fact that they are simply wrong.
Then again, Israel is infallible and can do no wrong what so ever, right?  
Israel is always the victim, right?  
All member nations of the United Nations are all wrong. right?  
Israel is Gods chosen people, right?  
Israeli lives are more important than Palestinians lives, right?  

Jews by "faith" but not by ancestory,
i.e. non-Hebrews.
Regards.
Advanced