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Aussiemite
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USA Rejects Germ Warfare Ban

Mon Oct 29, 2001 10:25 am

Isn't it ironic a few months ago US pulls out of germ warfare talks and now they have what is probably the worlds first true biological attack.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/europe/newsid_1472000/1472814.stm
 
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Goodbye
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RE: USA Rejects Germ Warfare Ban

Mon Oct 29, 2001 10:31 am

I smell something fishy here...
Perhaps the US government isn't as innocent as it appears...
✈︎
 
Alpha 1
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RE: USA Rejects Germ Warfare Ban

Mon Oct 29, 2001 10:53 am

Oh, Good God Almighty!! Goodbye, you are certifiable!!! We're being ATTACKED!!! We were on Sept 11th, and we're being attacked with germ warfare right now!!!

Even if the US had agreed to the treaty, these attacks would have taken place! You people need to get some smelling salts, and wake up to the world around you. Good God!!!!
 
Aussiemite
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Alpha 1

Mon Oct 29, 2001 11:06 am

regardless of if YOU are being attacked it proves YOUR government is prepared to launch biological attacks on other nations.


If my country did that I would be ashamed.


Imagine walking away from talks regarding baning biological weapons a month later your nation is under biological warfare and you condem it.
 
b757300
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RE: Alpha 1

Mon Oct 29, 2001 11:19 am

Yeah, if the United States wants to kill lots of people, we'll just let a few Peacekeeper ICBM's fly. Some people are so blinded by their hate for the United States, its amazing.
"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Alpha 1

Mon Oct 29, 2001 11:32 am

Whatever.

But Aussiemite, the US does biological research. But at the present time the US has no (that's none, zero, zilch, nada) biological weapons. They were destroyed in the 1970's.

In fact, it is US policy to consider a biological attack by another nation on the US to be the equivalant of a nuclear attack, simply because the US has no biological weapons.

The US does study bilogical weapons and warefare, because if the bad guys use it on you overtly, you have to find a way to counter it.
 
Aussiemite
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RE: USA Rejects Germ Warfare Ban

Mon Oct 29, 2001 11:36 am

I don't beleive that rubbish for a minute, if they opposed biological warfare they would have stuck with the forum.
 
Alpha 1
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RE: USA Rejects Germ Warfare Ban

Mon Oct 29, 2001 11:39 am

Whatever, Aussimite.

I don't believe the rubbish you're shoving, so we're even.
 
Whistler
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RE: USA Rejects Germ Warfare Ban

Mon Oct 29, 2001 11:43 am

 
Aussiemite
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RE: USA Rejects Germ Warfare Ban

Mon Oct 29, 2001 11:43 am

Alpha 1 yeah I woudnt beleive pre 11-9-01 BBC reports either  Nuts  Nuts  Nuts
 
Alpha 1
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RE: USA Rejects Germ Warfare Ban

Mon Oct 29, 2001 11:48 am

And, if you read it correctly, Aussiemite, the talks were SUSPENDED, not cancelled forever. In the article, it even says that France expect the US to work on some new ideas, and re-enter the talks next year.

So much for your dark conspiracies.
 
Guest

RE: USA Rejects Germ Warfare Ban

Mon Oct 29, 2001 8:02 pm

This is what i've heard. If you want to REFUTE it then post links to your proof.

1. The biological (anthrax) attacks are coming from within the USA.

2. The anthrax being used is one of three weapons grade known (USA has it, Russia has it .. not sure on the third)

3. The anthrax being used is the only one of the three that the USA has a treatment for.

4. The reason the USA has a treatment for it is that it is the USA's weapons grade anthrax.

Now i'm not saying anything except these are the facts are being portrayed in the Australian media and there appears (so far) to be no link to any overseas terrorist organisation.

Now i'm not saying the others are right, but it would be a much smaller assumption to make than you guys are making about other subjects to suggest that the anthrax attacks are "in house". Indeed, from what I have seen (and yes, I banned foxpropoganda from my tv a couple of weeks back when the bitch on it was inciting violence against non flag flying Americans) the USA government has not indicated at all that they think this is an attack by Bin Laden, certainly it's an attack by terrorists .. but are they within your own country or outside?

Anyway, i'd be interested in what has been portrayed on this subject in other countries.


VH-ADG
 
Guest

RE: USA Rejects Germ Warfare Ban

Mon Oct 29, 2001 8:35 pm

Good points ADG, it may be a new unabomber type...
Hopefully we will catch the culprit soon.
 
JetService
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RE: USA Rejects Germ Warfare Ban

Mon Oct 29, 2001 9:19 pm

ADG, Iraq had loads of it, remember?
"Shaddap you!"
 
cfalk
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RE: USA Rejects Germ Warfare Ban

Mon Oct 29, 2001 9:43 pm

ADG, where are you hearing that it is weapons-grade Anthrax? It is not. There have been interviews with CDC officials as well as Russian experts who have said clearly that this is NOT weapons-grade stuff. Weapon-grade anthrax, both from the U.S. and Russia, has been modified to be resistant to all known antibiotics, and is far more contagious. We'd be talking about thousands, if not tens of thousands of dead by now.

Iraq was working on such strains of Anthrax, but apparently did not get that far (although what they had was deadly enough).

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
jwenting
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RE: USA Rejects Germ Warfare Ban

Mon Oct 29, 2001 9:44 pm

The US rejected the biowarfare treaty because it prevents research into countering biowarfare threats.

And this is not the first biowarfare attack at all. The first recorded instances of biological warfare occured in Roman times, about 2000 years ago. There were probably occurances before then, but those were never recorded.
I wish I were flying
 
GDB
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RE: USA Rejects Germ Warfare Ban

Tue Oct 30, 2001 2:36 am

I'm confused, the US said, (note past tense) that signing the Biowar treaty would prevent research into countering such threats.
But....the UK signed, and at Porton-Down has one of the largest, and probably most advanced, centers for research into chemical/biological defence. The UK chem/bio-weapons were scrapped in the 1950's.
I think rejecting the treaty was more about domestic US politics, Bush keeping the headbanger wing of his party in line.
Now? It's as valid as appeasing Hitler became on the 3rd Sep. 1939.
The big worry is the huge unsecure stockpiles in the former USSR, and lots of unpaid biowar scientists become destitute.
Some of these stockpiles and people are not far from the Afghan border, and Iraq and Iran will write large checks for any unemployed scientists.
 
Guest

RE: USA Rejects Germ Warfare Ban

Tue Oct 30, 2001 6:02 am

Charles,

The news here is reporting it .. the "inhaled" version is (they claim) weapons grade and treatable in America, which they say is because it's American Weapons Grade Anthrax.

It makes sense that a country would have a treatment for the biological weapons they create, wouldn't want a realistic playout of the first few chapters of "The Stand".





VH-ADG
 
Bove
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RE: USA Rejects Germ Warfare Ban

Tue Oct 30, 2001 8:38 am

Isn't it ironic a few months ago US pulls out of germ warfare talks and now they have what is probably the worlds first true biological attack.

No it isn't ironic at all. In fact, this shows better than anything else the sheer futility of a piece of paper to deal with terrorist threats. Last time I checked, a barbarian hell-bent on murdering innocents doesn't bother to check about the legality of what he is doing

 Insane

Honestly you people are so incredibly naive!
 
TheFlyingAce
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RE: USA Rejects Germ Warfare Ban

Tue Oct 30, 2001 8:44 am

Last time I checked, a barbarian hell-bent on murdering innocents doesn't bother to check about the legality of what he is doing

A barbarian hell bent on murdering innocents? Sounds a hell of a lot like the US to me.

And we probably already know who the culprit is...the United States government probably...quite simple really... Send a whole lot of Anthrax into the postal system and blame it on Al Qaeda, or in fact, anyone else you don't like, such as Iraq.

Marvellous.

 
Bove
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RE: USA Rejects Germ Warfare Ban

Tue Oct 30, 2001 8:44 am


































but are they within your own country or outside?

Honestly ADG I don't think it makes a damn bit of difference whether it was a homegrown terrorist or Islamic barbarians...the point is that governments signing long treaties to ban germ weapons and other nasties doesn't prevent a terrorist from getting his hands on the stuff.













 
dragogoalie
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RE: USA Rejects Germ Warfare Ban

Tue Oct 30, 2001 12:33 pm

"And we probably already know who the culprit is...the United States government probably...quite simple really... Send a whole lot of Anthrax into the postal system and blame it on Al Qaeda, or in fact, anyone else you don't like, such as Iraq. "

What the hell are you smoking? Yeah, that makes a whole lot of sense, lets kill our own people. Only countries like Iraq would launch bilogical attacks on its own people (which from what I've heard actually happened). "TheFlyingAce" you make no sense.

--dragogoalie-#88--
Formerly known as Jap. Srsly. AUSTRALIA: 2 days!
 
Alpha 1
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RE: USA Rejects Germ Warfare Ban

Tue Oct 30, 2001 12:51 pm

I see this certifiable nut, TheFlyingAce, doesn't even "exist", at least according to Airliners!!  Smile

Anyway, we've heard that kind of nonsense before-people who think the US government planned the 9-11 attacks and now, this anthrax spread. Unfortunately, it seems the naive are leading the blind on this one.

Whatever.
 
Guest

RE: USA Rejects Germ Warfare Ban

Tue Oct 30, 2001 12:57 pm

GDB

The big worry is the huge unsecure stockpiles in the former USSR, and lots of unpaid biowar scientists become destitute.

Where is your proof of these huge unsecure stockpiles? Have you ever seen them? Have you been there?

Or are you simply using assumption to try and create a picture which just isn't there?

Please try to use fact instead of baseless information if you wish to try and get a point across which people will take at least a little seriously.
 
Alpha 1
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RE: USA Rejects Germ Warfare Ban

Tue Oct 30, 2001 1:03 pm

Aviatsiya, the Soviets were neck-deep into biological/chemical research/production. The biggest reason why the US is so heavy into research on these weapons isn't because of Iraq or Afghanistan or Bin Laden-it's because for 40 years, the Soviet Union taught chemical/biological warfare as part of their military doctrine.
 
N400QX
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RE: USA Rejects Germ Warfare Ban

Tue Oct 30, 2001 1:20 pm

This is pitiful. Just another pitiful attempt to start up anti-American crap. I'm sick of it-- all of you need to shut your damn traps and focus on whatever you usually focus on and let us be.
 
Aussiemite
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RE: USA Rejects Germ Warfare Ban

Tue Oct 30, 2001 1:39 pm

My original point wasnt about weather a ban on bio weapons would stop the current anthax issue or Iraq or the soviets.. or even the US from using them.

It's what state of mind the US government is in to walk out of a forum on banning the weapons.

and by the way, I don't hate americans I only hate the way a number of them think.
 
Guest

RE: USA Rejects Germ Warfare Ban

Tue Oct 30, 2001 1:43 pm

Alpha 1

I am well aware of the research and weapons which were developed by the Soviets and the Americans. I don't need a history lesson on Russian history from you.

What I said is where is the proof that these facilities and "biological" weapons are unsecured.

There is none, and that is what I am taking GDB to task over.

Like I said...use facts to present an argument....not misguided and false assumptions.
 
cfalk
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RE: USA Rejects Germ Warfare Ban

Tue Oct 30, 2001 2:46 pm

ADG,

The "inhaled" anthrax that has gone around is an ATTEMPT at weapons grade, but far from it. The proof that the stuff is not terribly dangerous is the fact that we have only seen a few cases after a month.

The descriptions I have heard about real weapons-grade anthrax are terrifying. For instance, if a case of anthrax was found on Manhatten, the best thing to do would be to blow up the bridges and tunnels, and shoot anyone who tries to swim off the island, the inhabitants of which are forfeit.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
Bove
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RE: USA Rejects Germ Warfare Ban

Tue Oct 30, 2001 2:46 pm

What I said is where is the proof that these facilities and "biological" weapons are unsecured.

What about the testimony of Ken Alibek who was essentially the godfather of Soviet efforts to produce germ weapons in the 1970's and 1980's? He's a defector, sure, but I see no reason to deny his information which in any case has been well-known and corroborated by Western intelligence agencies for years.

The fact that a wide variety of terrorists and other nasties have been apprehended over the years trying to purchase enriched uranium, chemicals, and biological reagents from the countries of the former Soviet Union stands as testament to the compromised security of WMD's in these areas.

Its not a Russophobe statement...if I were a Ph.D chemist reduced to a meagre existance who knows what I might do?
 
Bove
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RE: USA Rejects Germ Warfare Ban

Tue Oct 30, 2001 3:02 pm

It's what state of mind the US government is in to walk out of a forum on banning the weapons.

The US Government has already banned military research into biological weapons and is a signatory to the 1972 Biological and Toxin Weapons Convention. Whether or not they have really done so is anyone's guess---the point is that the futility of such agreements has been demonstrated time and time again. The USSR was producing, refining, and weaponizing botulism, smallpox, anthrax, and other nasties well into the 1980's despite having signed on to this treaty in earnest.

The current anthrax threat has fully demonstrated the need to develop detection and early-warning systems and vaccines where possible and this cannot be done without staging mock exercises and working with live pathogens in certain instances. This could easily be misconstrued by ambiguous treaty language and has been a fundamental concern among the current administration.

Signing treaty after treaty in this vein is an exercise in futility. Unfotunately some will misconstrue genuine concerns to show how the US plots to subvert the international system and destroy the earth with germ weapons...that really ain't the case.

 
 
Guest

RE: USA Rejects Germ Warfare Ban

Tue Oct 30, 2001 3:50 pm

Bove

Am I now getting a history lesson from you? Like I said, I am well aware of the history of the biological weapons programme in the Soviet Union, but NOT ONE link which you provided has stated anywhere that Russian and CIS biological plants and weapons are not secure.

So keep on digging and find me that proof.

Maybe get N400QX to help you. You see, he is an expert on digging up proof on the Russians  Insane

And don't go quoting me stuff from Zhirinovski.

Also, the majority of nuclear materials which leaked out from the former Soviet Union, came from the Baltic states of Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia, pretty much straight after those countries declared independence from the Soviet Union......that is a whole different kettle of fish.

So I will say once more....where's the proof that these weapons and facilities are not secure? And I would actually like it to come from GDB (seeing as he made the original statement).
 
Guest

RE: USA Rejects Germ Warfare Ban

Tue Oct 30, 2001 4:54 pm

Charles,

Inhaled Anthrax cannot be spread the way you suggest. It is not airborne. It would have to be dropped by a cropduster or similar to get the effect you are talking about ...



VH-ADG
what's the difference between QX and a plane? Whining stops when you turn the engine off ......
 
Alpha 1
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RE: USA Rejects Germ Warfare Ban

Tue Oct 30, 2001 10:10 pm

Aviatsiya, I'm beginning to think you just don't want to be informed about this or be given any shred of proof-you just want to deny the possibility, because that's easier to do. I doubt there's many Russian chemical/biological experts on this board Big grin but the fact is that with the state of the Russian Military in this day and age, and the lack of control they have over what used to be their military installations in former Soviet Republics, such a concern is real and justified.
 
Guest

RE: USA Rejects Germ Warfare Ban

Tue Oct 30, 2001 10:51 pm

All I have been informed on so far is stuff I already know, and nothing that has been shown to me so far shows any proof of facilities being not secure.

I especially take exception to this statement:

but the fact is that with the state of the Russian Military in this day and age, and the lack of control they have over what used to be their military installations in former Soviet Republics, such a concern is real and justified.

I will ask you what I asked GDB.

Have you been to them? Have you seen them first hand? Do you know anything about them?

The truth of the matter is, is that these installation's security is tighter than Fort Know, but you refuse to accept that. Of course, because they are Russian, they have no idea on how to secure their facilities.

Come back down to earth and show me ONE, just ONE shred of evidence
 
jwenting
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RE: USA Rejects Germ Warfare Ban

Tue Oct 30, 2001 11:08 pm

ADG, a decomposing corpse near an airco-vent has the same effect. This need not be a human corpse, a rat or pigeon would do nicely.

The bacterium or spore cannot be transmitted between victims, but it can be released from the dead body quite easily (which is how it spreads in nature).
I wish I were flying
 
Alpha 1
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RE: USA Rejects Germ Warfare Ban

Wed Oct 31, 2001 12:53 am

Whatever, Aviatsiya. If you want to go on being a Doubting Thomas simply because no one on here has first-and proof, go ahead, bury your head in the sand.
 
Guest

RE: USA Rejects Germ Warfare Ban

Wed Oct 31, 2001 1:03 am

Alpha 1

Am I supposed to believe everything you say, just because you say it?

You say the sky is purple. I disagree and ask for proof, but I am expected to believe you?

Don't think so chum.

As in this case, I know what I am talking about. You obviously don't!!!

Let's just leave it there huh? In that you still can't provide one shread of evidence. The only thing you have thus far supplied is a guy saying that the Soviets had a biological weapons program. No-one is doubting that, nor have they!!!
 
Alpha 1
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RE: USA Rejects Germ Warfare Ban

Wed Oct 31, 2001 1:27 am

Funny, isn't it, that you haven't provided one shred of proof that backs up what you're saying to all of us?
 
Guest

RE: USA Rejects Germ Warfare Ban

Wed Oct 31, 2001 1:51 am

Here you go Alpha 1

Plenty of links for you (try downloading some of the PDF files). On not one site is it thought that the Russian/CIS facilities are not secure!!

http://www.stimson.org/cwc/bwissues.htm
http://www.ceip.org/programs/npp/biological.htm
http://cns.miis.edu/pubs/opapers/op1/op1.htm

Those are just 3 very reputable sources on the matter of biological and chemical warfare.

I would give you links to the American military websites, but they seem to be down at this time.

I have done my research a long long time ago. I know what I am talking about.

If you read Russian, then I can post literally hundreds of sites dealing with this same issue.

Care to share any of your sources?

You called my bluff, so it is now time to show your hand.
 
Alpha 1
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RE: USA Rejects Germ Warfare Ban

Wed Oct 31, 2001 1:56 am

Actually, I wasn't calling your bluff, but it's funny you didn't post those right away when the discussion turned to this subject.
 
Guest

RE: USA Rejects Germ Warfare Ban

Wed Oct 31, 2001 2:08 am

Why should I post them right away.

You are right.....you didn't call my bluff....I called yours!!!!!

Ooops....sorry about that.

Anyway...got anything for me to look at?

Maybe ask my mate N400QX for those Putin/Mafia links at the same time if you will

Thanks ever so much.
 
GDB
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Aviatsiya

Wed Oct 31, 2001 4:47 am

For heaven's sake, the rest of the world knows about the state of many Nuke/Chem/Bio facilities in former USSR.
Just two nights ago, a BBC reporter went to a huge ex-Biowar plant, it had been constructed, (against the '72 treaty), in secret, a whole town.
Biowar cultures were in old, unsecure fridges. Although now redundant, the fact that there were not proper records for the TONS of bioweapons made there for 10 years caused concern.
There have been reports like this from other facilities for the best past of a decade.
The US goverment is paying Russia millions of $ to beef up security at these places.
It's not Russia bashing, think about it, do you want those charming Chechens to get hold of your OWN weapons of mass destruction and use then against you?
 
Guest

RE: USA Rejects Germ Warfare Ban

Wed Oct 31, 2001 5:12 am

JW,

A rotting corpse can do that .. but it would be limited to the building in which the people worked. You would literally have to do that to every building in the city to cause a big enough problem to really affect a number of people.

A bit like Legionealla.



VH-ADG
 
Guest

RE: USA Rejects Germ Warfare Ban

Wed Oct 31, 2001 5:19 am

GDB

I know full well about the state of some of the facilities in the former Soviet Union (especially their nuclear facilities). I know that some of these facilities are run down and in need of some great patching up and renovations, but the fact remains that these facilities are secure in the sense that it is next to impossible to get these weapons outside the facility. There is as much chance of these weapons being smuggled out of the facilities, as there is of them being smuggled out of an American facility. Nothing is fail-safe....that is just the real world.

Anyway:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/europe/newsid_1628000/1628486.stm

The major point that is raised in this BBC article is this:

There is also concern that impoverished or disaffected Russian scientists may decide to export their knowledge - and may not be too scrupulous about who they work for.

This is the biggest concern; but you can't stop people imparting knowledge. No matter whether they are Russian or American.

And about the unaccounted weapons; it will be exactly like the 3 suitcase nukes which Ledbedev (I think it was) said were missing a few years ago. They have since been accounted for. And it will be the same in this case. The only places where it is hard to keep track of, is those facilities in the former Baltic states (.ee, .lt, .lv)
 
Treg
Posts: 488
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RE: USA Rejects Germ Warfare Ban

Mon Nov 12, 2001 1:22 am

Aviatsiya wrote:
Also, the majority of nuclear materials which leaked out from the former Soviet Union, came from the Baltic states of Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia, pretty much straight after those countries declared independence from the Soviet Union......that is a whole different kettle of fish.

Well, Aviatsiya, you just have to blame Russian military for this mess... Those 3 countries never had any access for nuclear materials. All what was stored there belonged to russians (ex-Soviet army) and was removed latest 1994, when russians finally went home. How much was smuggled out - nobody knows, as we had no control over the Soviets (they had their own ports and airfields - once Estonians tried to establish some type of control but it nearly ended with military conflict). EST, LAT, LIT have nothing to do with this problem and to blame them is very wrong. Sorry.

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