Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
AF-A319
Topic Author
Posts: 567
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 1999 3:18 am

The Euro Is Coming ; My Tribute To Europe

Tue Dec 11, 2001 4:20 am

Hello, bonjour from Paris France, Europe!

On friday the 14th, the French citizens will have the possibility to buy a kit of 15€24 (100FF) made of different Euro coins. This kit will be available before the official start of the circulation of the new common currency, in order to get used to the new coins.

Friday is only in 4 days, and I would like to take the opportunity of this event to tell How PROUD I am to SHARE a currency (which is a strong symbol) with so many peoples (and airliners.net users!) in Europe.

Yes I'm Proud! Proud, not just glad.

Proud, because our countries had fought together for decades. Millions of people have died in these nightmares! And since 1957, we have decided to unite our destinies. To share a single currency is more than an economic decision. It is also the ULTIMATE SYMBOL of our wish to live together with the aim of increasing prosperity, but also with the goal to preserve PEACE.

Proud, because on January the 1st, when I will buy a coke, I will know that I will use the same notes and coins as millions of young people in Germany or in Ireland.

Proud, because when my italian or belgium friends will visit me in Paris, they will feel at home.

Proud, because in the eyes of millions of extra-european tourists, we will form a single area.

I think that we (the European young generation), we have to be aware of our priviledge to live in countries which are not involved in war on their own territories. It has not always been the case.
The Euro notes and coins represent a symbol of that. This is why I'm proud to have it in my pocket.

Sincerely,

Louis, a 19 years old €uropean citizen.


 
mls515
Posts: 2960
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2000 5:56 am

RE: The Euro Is Coming ; My Tribute To Europe

Tue Dec 11, 2001 4:33 am

It will make it a lot easier for us foreign tourists to move from country to country and not have to worry about us changing our money or hitting up the ATM every time we cross a border. Last April, I went from British Pounds to French Francs to Swiss Francs to German Marks to Austrian Schillings to Italian Lira to Greek Drachma in the span of two-and-a-half weeks. If I ever do that again, I'll only have to worry about 3 currencies instead of 7!

I really hope it cuts into the profits of those shady currency changers who have been ripping off tourists for years with bad exchange rates. I always used the ATM or credit cards for the best exchange even though you still get taken for a little, but at least it's by your own bank in your home country!

Keep buying Coca-Cola!

mls515
 
Guest

RE: The Euro Is Coming ; My Tribute To Europe

Tue Dec 11, 2001 4:40 am

Hey AF-A319,

I'm glad you feel that way; hopefully one day we can join you, but some of our MP's aren't sure the € is going to be all good for our economy-that is why our government has devised some economic tests-if the € passes these tests, then we will also join in.

I am raising my glass to Europe!  Big thumbs up

Regards
 
David_itl
Posts: 6475
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2001 7:39 am

RE: The Euro Is Coming ; My Tribute To Europe

Tue Dec 11, 2001 6:06 am


Can you tell me whether the rumours that the Euro has had to devalue against the tiddlywink are correct? I know it's had a rough time against the coffee bean and the snowflake but it appears to be more than holding it's own against the sand granule.


David/MAN
 
Scotty
Posts: 1846
Joined: Thu Dec 23, 1999 10:51 pm

RE: The Euro Is Coming ; My Tribute To Europe

Tue Dec 11, 2001 6:15 am

Well done. The UK is not playing yet but I hope that we will do so very soon.


Scotty
 
Hepkat
Posts: 2134
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2000 8:22 am

RE: The Euro Is Coming ; My Tribute To Europe

Tue Dec 11, 2001 6:16 am

I'm glad the Euro's coming too. I just can't wait to get rid of all these different currencies. Everytime I travel, I always end up with an assortment of coins, worth a lot of money, that I can't use. It'll finally make life so much easier.

And yes, I'm proud of Europe for overcoming so many hundreds of years of feuding and warring to finally forming a single entity, with everyone more or less good friends. It's a huge accomplishment, especially considering the severe battering Europe took during the two World Wars. It's nothing short of a miracle how you guys managed to bounce back to such industrial health.

Hats off to the Euro and to a better future!

BTW, I got a first glimpse of the Euro a few weeks ago. I was a guest at the house of an important German official, and he brought home a whole bunch of notes for me to play with. These bills have got to be the hardest to counterfeit, for they have at least 10-14 different security features. He told me the bills themselves cost an arm and a leg to produce. They have holograms, watermarks galore, microscopic engravements, electronic signatures, raised etchings, and the paper is of very high grade cotton. My only problem with the notes is that they won't fit in my wallet, which I'm quite fond of. And although they are also quite colorful, I found the designs somewhat lacking. Surely they come have come up with something better looking than bridges!
 
N400QX
Posts: 1981
Joined: Sun May 06, 2001 9:51 am

RE: The Euro Is Coming ; My Tribute To Europe

Tue Dec 11, 2001 8:21 am

I'm sorry, but I don't think this will be great for Europe's economy. But if it is, more power to ya.

I also don't really like this idea because currency is a big part of a nation's identity, and it is kinda scary that some would give up part of their national identity so fast.

I'm with the Brits-- keep the pound, don't screw yourselves over.  Big grin
 
David_itl
Posts: 6475
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2001 7:39 am

RE: The Euro Is Coming ; My Tribute To Europe

Tue Dec 11, 2001 8:35 am


Anyone care to speculate why we in "backward Britain" appear to have attracted over 20% of all inward investment in the European Union. Who needs the Euro here?


I'm sorry but you won't find a country called Europe on maps. However, I do find the countries of Greece, Ireland, Finland, Netherlands, etc in the landmass called Europe. By all means have the Euro, but don't let it replace entirely the local currency as it will be utterly irrelevant that there will be no currency commision for the great mass of people who do not leave their own country.

If we want all this "peace and harmony", perhaps you may want to write to the Asian heads of goverment suggesting that they all give up their currencies and have a single currency called the "Asian" because they've had more than their own share of wars over the centuries.

I'm pretty sure that Africa can extend the principal of the CFA that exists (existed?) where several former French colonies all share(d) a currency so that all African countries can have a single currency. Again, this ought to bring "peace and harmony".

Ditto South America and all other landmasses.

Then in 10 years time we can go for the "Pangaea" i.e. a global currency to replace all the continental currencies.


David/MAN
 
Scotty
Posts: 1846
Joined: Thu Dec 23, 1999 10:51 pm

RE: The Euro Is Coming ; My Tribute To Europe

Tue Dec 11, 2001 8:41 am

David

I think its called the "dollar" !!

Scotty
 
paulc
Posts: 1440
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2001 10:42 pm

RE: The Euro Is Coming ; My Tribute To Europe

Tue Dec 11, 2001 5:01 pm

The UK will not adopt the euro - the referendum that phoney tony has promised will give a big thumbs down to it and our economy is much different to that of the rest of europe - ie it is working ok. The old saying "if it is not broken dont try and fix it" comes to mind.

If the people of europe really wanted the euro - should it have been put to a vote in each country - that fact that countries that had done this have had it rejected shows the general lack of enthusiam for it.

The UK has given up so much to europe and imho seem to get little out apart from red tape.


 
SInGAPORE_AIR
Posts: 11642
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2000 4:06 am

RE: The Euro Is Coming ; My Tribute To Europe

Tue Dec 11, 2001 5:35 pm

The UK gets loads back from Europe and "Phoney Tony" is not phoney at all. At least we would get a vote unlike the CONservative party who would choose to dictate our views.

When the UK Governement feels it is right, they will hold a referendum. If people give it a thumbs down, then so be it. If people give it a thumbs up... I guess some people choose to ignore this possibility as it doesn't appeal to them.
 
David_itl
Posts: 6475
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2001 7:39 am

RE: The Euro Is Coming ; My Tribute To Europe

Tue Dec 11, 2001 7:03 pm

I believe that the UK is one of the biggest contributors to the EU and doesn't get back half as much money as it puts forward.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if after any referendum in Britain rejects the Euro, we will see a repeat referendum until such times as it gets accepted.

Perhaps we can determine the popularity of the Euro by having a EU wide referendum, with the result legally binding, with the Euro to be adopted if (a) more than 50% of the total voting population of the EU - not only those who voted - say yes, and (b) all the EU countries having more than 50% of the voting population in each country wanting it.

Oh dear, I guess we can't have the Euro according to my rules because Denmark's population voted against it. Back to the drawing board then Big grin

David/MAN

 
paulc
Posts: 1440
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2001 10:42 pm

RE: The Euro Is Coming ; My Tribute To Europe

Tue Dec 11, 2001 7:07 pm

Yes - a single currency does not appeal at all. Why should it - we would be giving up our right to manage our economy, interest rates etc to people that the UK public had not elected - at least we get the chance every 4 or 5 years to change govs unlike the gravey train that the eu has become.

phoney tony is just that - our transport systems are poor, health service in a mess, crime rising - what have labour done about those ??? - not much i think.

just think of how much more money would be available if we did not contribute to the eu - and is the eu accountable for how it spends /wastes money ?? - look at how much the new european parliament building cost and it is only used a few times each year - a wonderful return on the investment (not)
 
Hepkat
Posts: 2134
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2000 8:22 am

RE: The Euro Is Coming ; My Tribute To Europe

Tue Dec 11, 2001 8:02 pm

Fellows, calm down. We had the same arguments and concerns 200 years ago when the U.S. was deciding on unification and a single currency. The other day I read a book about it, and it was really quite amusing what the different states thought of each other. NY and MA didn't want to be in a union with the southern states, as they feared an influx of poor immigrants, and didn't want to give up their currency for a wretched system that would have anything to do with slavery and the cotton industry from the south. I believe Rhode Island was one of the last to join the union, which was a little over a hundred years ago! Some states were so suspicious of the union, that they became commonwealths (e.g., Massachusetts, Virginia, who remain so to this day), so that if it didn’t work out, they could revert back to being their own country. It's the same old story being replayed.

Granted, there are major differences between then and now, you Europeans have had hundreds of years of self-identity and are much more nationalistic. However, I think the good vastly outweighs the bad, which is something we will unfortunately only get to see in the future.

It may seem as if the E.U.'s a waste of time now, but who remembers the wretched state of countries like Greece, Finland and Spain before they joined the EU? And how could we forget Sweden? Now's it's an industrial giant! The fact is, you get much more out of the EU than you put in, but you’re just too pissed off to notice it. The EU builds up domestic trading, fosters competition (which encourages growth), and the introduction of a single currency will add the finishing touches of simplicity and Europe-wide transparency. Think of all the money that will be saved!

As for the EU squandering its budget, I'm afraid I have to agree. In the U.S. we have a much tighter control over how the feds spend their money, as they're accountable to each other (checks and balances), plus it's the public's right to inspect government records. That alone provides a strong deterrent against squander and fraud. But it didn't come overnight. It was a constantly improving experiment that has finally yielded a good working compromise. But this can only come through unification and transparency. The system as it is in the EU right now, with each country having their own system, and no one really wanting to cooperate with each other, really makes it hard to rein in and synchronize all the EU's activities, thereby ensuring one seamless transaction. It seems that money's being spent in the EU, but nobody knows for what reason, and by the time they find out, several months have passed and it's no longer relevant.

I can only encourage my EU friends to seriously consider a singular system of doing things. Right now, 3% of your budget's spent just on translations and other bureaucratic paperwork. That's the GDP of at least a few third world countries right there! You'll see that there's strength in having one central authority calling the shots, versus 15 squabbling siblings.

As for fears of losing national identities, that doesn't have to be the case. In the U.S., we've worked out a good compromise where each state still retains most of their sovereignty, but with a federal government taking over a few very important tasks (e.g., defense, immigration, foreign policy, etc.). The states have the right to run their own affairs, and the feds are not allowed to interfere. Each state has their own flag, anthems, legislature, court system, executive branch, holidays, laws and customs, and they could even have their language if they wanted. I'm sure you can also find such a compromise within the EU.
 
paulc
Posts: 1440
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2001 10:42 pm

RE: The Euro Is Coming ; My Tribute To Europe

Tue Dec 11, 2001 8:46 pm

would the USA want to give up the dollar to join a political ideal?? - i think not - so why should any country be forced to adopt something they do not want (or need)

As David.itl said Denmark have rejected the euro - how many other countries would had done the same if they had been given the opportunity.

Denmark also rejected the Maastrecht treaty which should have been the end of that but it was forced through on a 2nd vote.

 
eg777er
Posts: 1782
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2000 11:11 pm

RE: The Euro Is Coming ; My Tribute To Europe

Tue Dec 11, 2001 9:19 pm

The 'massive' opposition to the Euro in the United Kingdom is an urban myth I'm afraid. If you examine the figures, we are looking at potentially a very close result - within 10% either way.

It's amazing how you can tweak the opinion by the wording of the question. For example, no mention of 'dropping the pound' will get the pro vote an extra 5%!

And, the statement that the UK is the 4th largest economy in the world and therefore we don't need the Euro (or even Europe, some argue!) is moronic. The reason we are such a large economy is because of Europe, not despite it!!

If we continue to hover and deliberate about our destiny, then more and more corporations will move their European operations to the mainland, and we will loose their money. Companies such as Nissan, Toyota, HP, Microsoft, have all made rumblings about the strength of the pound being bad for their business.

To the Eurozone: See you by 2005!!!
 
paulc
Posts: 1440
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2001 10:42 pm

RE: The Euro Is Coming ; My Tribute To Europe

Wed Dec 12, 2001 12:18 am

The statement that the UK economy is 4th largest is not moronic - it is a fact. It is also a fact that this has been done by not signing up to the euro.
Yes we do a lot of trade with europe but that is only a few countries compared to the rest of the world.
Our single biggest trading partner is the USA and that will not change after Jan 1 2002.

The UK economy has proved it can survive and grow outside euroland so why change something which is working - perhaps phoney tony can see the job of president of the united states of europe going to somebody else rather than him.
 
Hepkat
Posts: 2134
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2000 8:22 am

RE: The Euro Is Coming ; My Tribute To Europe

Wed Dec 12, 2001 12:22 am

Eg777er is right. Moving your business to the mainland means simplicity, transparency and tremendous savings, advantages the U.S. has historically held over Europe. People in England are kidding themselves if they believe they can remain a self-sustaining island in this era of globalization and free trade.

And contrary to what you may believe Paulc, the U.S. doesn't have to give up it's currency, the 50 states already did. I pointed that out clearly in my prior post. What we're reaping now are the tremendous benefits of that historic decision. Countries in Asia already have a union, and countries of the Caribbean have already formed a political union, Caricom. They are currently finalizing the protocol for their monetary union as well.

As someone said, Britain has the world's fourth largest economy BECAUSE of the EU, not despite it.
 
Guest

RE: The Euro Is Coming ; My Tribute To Europe

Wed Dec 12, 2001 12:38 am

I just love it because a Euro is about 1 dollar, so no more trying to convert Francs into Dollars, or getting screwed when buying computer stuff because I thought it was cheaper... Big grin
This ll' be way easier for me, an American living in France... Big grin
 
Banco
Posts: 14343
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2001 11:56 pm

RE: The Euro Is Coming ; My Tribute To Europe

Wed Dec 12, 2001 12:52 am

Well, Hepkat, that's partly true. It would be foolish to deny that a free trade relationship with Europe is to the advantage of Britain, just as it is for all members provided they don't price themselves out of the market through penal tax rates etc. Indeed, a free trade policy underpins British foreign policy and has done for several hundred years, it is no coincidence that Britain's worst periods in relation to other nations have been when there has been protectionism across the world.

Nevertheless, the Euro issue has taken on a political dimension as it is necessarily a precursor to political union, it is the only way it will work in the medium to long term. Of course, many people may indeed wish for that, and it is a perfectly honourable position to take, but it is also one that that many EU politicians (including British ones) refuse to admit.

The US angle is a red herring as we are talking about entirely different times and conditions. This is not an emergent nation bound by a common cause, or even a common language; let alone common customs and belief systems. Nor are European (i.e. EU) institutions democratic in nature.

Equally, the position of a nation politically, whether it is aligned with a single European state or otherwise is actually irrelevant to its actual success economically. Hong Kong, Taiwan and Singapore have clearly shown that it is economic policy that drives success, not political affiliation.

The UK has every chance of succeeding outside of the Euro provided the correct economic philosohy is followed.

On the subject of the position in a referendum, the figures show something like 70% against joining ERM. However, this figure is actually meaningless. A closer examination shows that about 30% are strongly opposed, 10% strongly in favour, 20% mildly opposed, and 15% mildly in favour, with 25% undecided. Assuming that those who eventually don't vote are spread evenly across all opinions, the no campaign only needs to attract 20% + 1 of those mildly against, undecided or in favour. That statistic makes it (at this stage) unlikely for a yes campaign to win.

Even so, it does depend on the question asked. The next few years will be interesting to say the least.

 
eg777er
Posts: 1782
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2000 11:11 pm

RE: The Euro Is Coming ; My Tribute To Europe

Wed Dec 12, 2001 2:09 am

Paulc, your argument is useless.

From the CIA World Factbook entry on the United Kingdom:

"Exports - partners: EU 58% (Germany 12%, France 10%, Netherlands 8%), US 15% (1999)
Imports - partners: EU 53% (Germany 14%, France 9%, Netherlands 7%), US 13%, Japan 5% (1999) "
.

I am not disputing that the UK is the 4th largest economy, it is. However, the only reason it is so large is that we trade so much with Europe. Outside the Euro-zone, that trade will decline.
 
travelin man
Posts: 3271
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2000 10:04 am

RE: The Euro Is Coming ; My Tribute To Europe

Wed Dec 12, 2001 4:12 am

As a US citizen, I must agree that it will be nice to be able to travel to most of Europe and not have to deal with the currency conversions, etc.

However, I disagree with the premise that the UK's economy will decline unless they join the Euro. The reasons stated (companies will move to the mainland because of the strong pound) is precisely the reason NOT to join the Euro. The UK can control the value of its currency right now. The UK controls its own interest rates and can increase or decrease the value of its currency as it sees fit (to a point, of course).

Joining the euro means that the ability for a nation to control currency valuation vanishes. This can cause problems for countries whose economies are outperforming (or underperforming) the Euro zone as a whole. Last year, when Ireland was roaring, and the rest of the Euro zone was not, Ireland's inflation problem was aggravated by Euro interest rate cuts. And the Irish basically had no control over it.

Of course, Ireland has been helped by joing the Euro area far more than it has been hurt, but I'm just not sure if the UK wants to lose its monetary sovereignty.

There are good arguments on both sides, but somehow I doubt the English will give up the pound any time soon.
 
Cyril B
Posts: 380
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2001 6:03 am

RE: The Euro Is Coming ; My Tribute To Europe

Wed Dec 12, 2001 4:49 am

Just a precision: according to the world factbook 2001, the UK is not the 4th, but the 5th largest economy. (France is ahead of the UK, in terms of GDP and GDP per capita, with a smaller labour force).

 
Klaus
Posts: 21700
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

Paulc, Banco

Wed Dec 12, 2001 8:09 am

Paulc: The statement that the UK economy is 4th largest is not moronic - it is a fact.

The Economist: The UK economy is about half the size of Germany's and vies with France for the position of fourth largest economy in the world.

So the "Euro-Countries" aren´t off too badly, themselves...

Paulc: It is also a fact that this has been done by not signing up to the euro.

I´d be cautious here. A lot of british growth is owed to foreign (english-speaking) investors seeking easy access to the european market. Being shut out from the Euro zone would be a strong reason to rethink this strategy.

Paulc: Yes we do a lot of trade with europe

About half of it, actually.

Paulc: but that is only a few countries compared to the rest of the world.

Well, yes. Dump France, welcome Burundi... (no offense intended)

Paulc: Our single biggest trading partner is the USA and that will not change after Jan 1 2002.

It´s not entirely unthinkable. Trade volume with Germany alone is quite close to that with the USA. And Britain´s entire Euro zone trade is a lot larger.

By the way, the Euro zone (even without Britain!) will be a slightly larger economy than the USA - and it´s just at your doorstep. Having been invited to that party isn´t exactly the worst thing that could happen, you know... Big grin

Paulc: The UK economy has proved it can survive and grow outside euroland so why change something which is working - perhaps phoney tony can see the job of president of the united states of europe going to somebody else rather than him.

Ummmm... there´s no "president of Europe"; And being the president of the European Commission is not exactly the most glamourous job around. You´d actually have to work most of the time...  Wink/being sarcastic


Banco: The US angle is a red herring as we are talking about entirely different times and conditions. This is not an emergent nation bound by a common cause, or even a common language; let alone common customs and belief systems.

No, it´s not as simple as that, indeed. The great thing is that people are beginning to realize that there are matters beyond their local tribe that can and should be addressed. And human rights, democratic stability and economic prosperity aren´t too bad as a common goal, I think.  Smile

Banco: Nor are European (i.e. EU) institutions democratic in nature.

Hence the increasing pressure for larger responsibilities for the European Parliament. Things are already rolling, there.

By the way, having regional parliaments for every region but England doesn´t strike me as particularly democratic, either. But I´m sure everybody is confident that Britain will get it right eventually...  Wink/being sarcastic


All in all, I´m looking forward to the changeover (in my case, from the german Mark to the Euro). And I agree with AF-A319: This is a historic event and I´m pretty sure it´s a great opportunity. We are (and will be) different nations; But we´re also family. (As we are - on different levels - with the USA and others.)

It feels good!  Big thumbs up
 
David_itl
Posts: 6475
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2001 7:39 am

RE: The Euro Is Coming ; My Tribute To Europe

Wed Dec 12, 2001 8:47 am

Klaus

Have you PERSONALLY had the chance to vote on whether you want Germany to join the Euro? Do you wish to deny that there exists some pressure groups in Germany wanting to keep the DM? I will keep maintaining the position that if the EU has stated that we are to have a single currency, then as soon as Denmark voted NO then the EU should have stopped forcing it through.

Here's one for you to contemplate: do you know who's going to pay for all the vending machines, ATMs, registers, etc to be Euro-only compatible? That's right - the citizens of Europe through increased prices which will already be rounded up when each currency is converted. Is that what they mean by the economic benefits of joining up?

David/MAN
 
paulc
Posts: 1440
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2001 10:42 pm

RE: The Euro Is Coming ; My Tribute To Europe

Wed Dec 12, 2001 7:43 pm

If the eu are so confident that the people want it then why not give them a vote - with a simple question such as "do you want the euro" yes or no.

unfortunately that will not happen as despite the rumours of euroland being a democracy it is not - the eu commissioners who make policy are not elected and tend to be failed politicians from their own countries - ie neil kinnock and leon britton for the uk.

Yes we do trade with europe but also the rest of the world - are companies based here going to have the expense of relocating just because the uk does not have the euro. Companies will wait and see what happens in the next year before making such big decisions. It is possible that the change will go smoothly but the economies of the countries involved are so diverse that there will be problems.




 
paulc
Posts: 1440
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2001 10:42 pm

RE: The Euro Is Coming ; My Tribute To Europe

Wed Dec 12, 2001 10:07 pm

I wish we could swop france for burundi - at least then we might be able to get to calais without the port being blocked by french fishermem or along motorways without them being blocked by french farmers, even flying has been difficult as the recent french atc strike showed. Many UK companies are still waiting for the compensation promised them by the eu as a result of the french strikes but as usual nothing is progressing because they do not give a **** and the eu are not prepared to force them to pay.

People say why did the UK not get more involved from the start of the european ideal - may i remind people that a certain french general (old big nose) Big grin stopped us twice from joining in the early days and so we were forced to 'go it alone' - another possible reason why the UK are seen as 'anti' europe.
 
Klaus
Posts: 21700
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

Paulc

Wed Dec 12, 2001 10:54 pm

Paulc: If the eu are so confident that the people want it then why not give them a vote - with a simple question such as "do you want the euro" yes or no.

I would have preferred that (which probably would have delayed the Euro introduction). But I don´t have an individual vote on every single tax proposal, either.

If there weren´t an overwhelming acceptance in the corporate world, it would have been impossible. If most people didn´t at least accept it, no european government could have dared to support the Euro. As it is, most people know it makes sense, even if many aren´t exactly ecstatic.

Paulc: unfortunately that will not happen as despite the rumours of euroland being a democracy it is not

The introduction of the Euro has been decided in the national capitals, not in Brussels.


Paulc: Yes we do trade with europe but also the rest of the world - are companies based here going to have the expense of relocating just because the uk does not have the euro. Companies will wait and see what happens in the next year before making such big decisions.

Moving assets and functions from Britain to the Continent is a one-off affair. Being able to work in a huge common market without having to deal with currency fluctuation is a permanent benefit.

Since the Euro´s international weight will be roughly comparable to the Dollar in the long run, Euro transactions will also become easier internationally.


Paulc: It is possible that the change will go smoothly but the economies of the countries involved are so diverse that there will be problems.

Yeah, we´ll all go to hell!  Big thumbs up


Paulc: People say why did the UK not get more involved from the start of the european ideal - may i remind people that a certain french general (old big nose)  stopped us twice from joining in the early days and so we were forced to 'go it alone' - another possible reason why the UK are seen as 'anti' europe.

Maggie Thatcher mind-controlled by the dead Charles de Gaulle! Hilarious!!  Smile
 
David_itl
Posts: 6475
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2001 7:39 am

RE: The Euro Is Coming ; My Tribute To Europe

Wed Dec 12, 2001 11:16 pm


The introduction of the Euro has been decided in the national capitals, not in Brussels.


Klaus, this is a fundamental restructuring of each countries economy. Your statement above is true i.e. it is a Governmental decision without the consent of the people. I'm with PaulC: If Governments are so sure about the benefits, let ALL of them start referenda and when ALL of the EU countries want the Euro then we can say the population of the EU DOES want it if the vote is in favour.

Oh, excuse me, I forget myself, Denmark voted NO so we can't have a single European currency because even if all the other EU countries voted for it, there would still be a "renegade" country, thereby negating the idea that it would make life easier because there'd be no commission to pay when travelling within the EU because we'd all have the same currency, we can compare prices easily with other EU countries, etc.

David/MAN
 
Banco
Posts: 14343
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2001 11:56 pm

RE: The Euro Is Coming ; My Tribute To Europe

Wed Dec 12, 2001 11:49 pm

Klaus, we've jousted on this before, and I respect your views. However, to justify no referenda being held in the Eurozone countries on the basis that you don't get a vote on tax issues either is sophistry in extremis (to mix etymological sources!). You cannot equate relatively minor taxation issues with an irreversible major initiative that will have a profound impact on the nations involved.

Secondly, no-one is arguing about the benefits of a single market. The issue concerns the current direction of the EU which is towards a federalised system.
 
jwenting
Posts: 9973
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2001 10:12 pm

RE: The Euro Is Coming ; My Tribute To Europe

Wed Dec 12, 2001 11:55 pm

The main concern with the Euro is the inherent weakness of the currency as compared to our current currencies (due to the inclusion of the weak currencies of southern Europe).
The German/French domination of Europe which will only get worse when more and more sovereignty is shed to the EU is indeed also a major concern of many, though less often voiced (as it is not politically correct to do so).
 
Hepkat
Posts: 2134
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2000 8:22 am

RE: The Euro Is Coming ; My Tribute To Europe

Thu Dec 13, 2001 12:15 am

You Europeans are amazing, I can never quite understand you all.

Secondly, no-one is arguing about the benefits of a single market. The issue concerns the current direction of the EU which is towards a federalised system.
So what if it becomes federalized? That's the trend, so why fight it? It's bound to happen sooner or later. And furthermore, having a federal system will undoubtedly yield so many benefits, many of which I've detailed a few posts above.

The German/French domination of Europe which will only get worse when more and more sovereignty is shed to the EU is indeed also a major concern of many, though less often voiced (as it is not politically correct to do so).
Do like what the Americans did, work out a compromise to give each state an equal voice.
 
ryanb741
Posts: 5058
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 6:36 pm

RE: The Euro Is Coming ; My Tribute To Europe

Thu Dec 13, 2001 12:22 am

That's the problem - nobody will agree as there are too many tensions in Europe.

At the end of the day, no matter what anyone says there are many people here in the UK who understand the many millions who died defeating the Germans and liberating the spineless French, and there is no way on God's earth that they will sit back and let those two countries try to manipulate Europe. If we had the choice to unify with the US many of us would gladly go along with it, but not Europe.

Just my 0.01 Euros.  Big grin
 
travelin man
Posts: 3271
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2000 10:04 am

RE: The Euro Is Coming ; My Tribute To Europe

Thu Dec 13, 2001 1:17 am

If we had the choice to unify with the US many of us would gladly go along with it, but not Europe.

Ryanb741, I know you were being facetious, but there was actually talk in The Economist a couple of months ago about the UK joining NAFTA and chucking the Euro. The article seemed serioius (although it admitted it was a remote possibility).

Imagine: The North ATLANTIC Free Trade Agreement -- The UK, US, Canada, and Mexico.

That could be kind of cool...
 
ryanb741
Posts: 5058
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 6:36 pm

RE: The Euro Is Coming ; My Tribute To Europe

Thu Dec 13, 2001 1:30 am

Actually, I wasn't being too facetious. From a personal level I find it much easier to get on with Americans and American society than going through the bureaucratic nightmare that is Europe.

If you guys are looking for another state......

I mean, you have 'New England' - how about 'Old England'  Big thumbs up
 
travelin man
Posts: 3271
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2000 10:04 am

RE: The Euro Is Coming ; My Tribute To Europe

Thu Dec 13, 2001 1:45 am

First, the Canadian provinces will become US states.

(shhh.... don't tell the Canadians).  Big grin

 
Banco
Posts: 14343
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2001 11:56 pm

RE: The Euro Is Coming ; My Tribute To Europe

Thu Dec 13, 2001 1:48 am

Hepkat: So what if it becomes federalized? That's the trend, so why fight it? It's bound to happen sooner or later. And furthermore, having a federal system will undoubtedly yield so many benefits, many of which I've detailed a few posts above.

Such as the Soviet Union perhaps? We are not talking about creating a nation founded on common ideals like the US was. Whilst I don't seriously expect the EU to become the USSR, the point is that the end result of a confederation created through the merging of unwilling partners tends not to be viable in the long term. The opposition to the EU in the UK is about maintaining our country as a free and independent nation. I find it incredible that you can simply dismiss such a notion out of hand. Let me put it simply: A very large number (I won't say "majority" as opinion polls are notoriously unreliable) of British people view this subject as a question of national sovereignty, even though Europe is a fabulous place why should a nation simply accept that it will be run by it? Why is that when we say we want the UK to remain independent that you can simply turn your nose up at such a concept? I thought you believed in democracy?
 
Hepkat
Posts: 2134
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2000 8:22 am

RE: The Euro Is Coming ; My Tribute To Europe

Thu Dec 13, 2001 2:52 am

Banco, I'm not turning my nose up at the British, I simply think their fears are unfounded.
 
avion
Posts: 2126
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 1:28 am

RE: The Euro Is Coming ; My Tribute To Europe

Thu Dec 13, 2001 3:37 am

I think that EU is a good start but they need to away with is those amazing amounts of bureaucrats in Brussels. Unlike the US the EU is becoming a centralised "country" where everything is done from Brussels. The regional governments dont have anything to say anymore. This is way taxes are so high.
The EU is not onlyu about reducing trade barriers they also introduce many new stupid laws.
So far we in Switzerland have been glad that we stayed out so we can still control our own country. We will soon get the rights of an EU country without having to pay all those taxes to Brussels.

Hepkat:
In a way you are rights. I say many paralells to the struggle that took place in the US with the Jeffersonians and the Federalists. But i still believe in the Jeffersonian's motto that the the governemnt is a necessary evil and should be kept as small as possible.

Tom
 
Hepkat
Posts: 2134
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2000 8:22 am

RE: The Euro Is Coming ; My Tribute To Europe

Thu Dec 13, 2001 3:44 am

Avion, I agree! To this day in the U.S. there are still two sharply divided sides. The democrats believe the government should have more rights, and more closely control every facet of your life (well, in a positive way I guess), and the republicans want less a smaller government with less control. I think what we have now is just a very good compromise, but not yet a perfect system. Somehow, I see the E.U. going through these same growing pains. I think it will take probably a few decades before they too find a compromise that works for them.
 
Cyril B
Posts: 380
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2001 6:03 am

RE: The Euro Is Coming ; My Tribute To Europe

Thu Dec 13, 2001 4:13 am

It's so easy to criticize Europe, and especially France and Germany...

In one of the posts, i read that one of you wish that France could be swap for Burundi... I think it's very violent...
: a lot of british LOVE to critize France, but each week, we can see dozens, if not hundreds of them arriving in Calais in order to be hospitalized in France, with french public funds, because the british wealth system is just crap...
Another example: a few months ago, when the EU had to pay enormous subsides to the british farmers (who infested europe with dead cow and foot and mouth diseases), no one criticized europe.

In fact, it seems that the UK only wants to get benefits from the EU, without taking any risks in its construction. If the Euro "works", The UK is likely to join the Eurozone in a few years, and it will get the benefits of this French-German work, which began in 1978 with an idea of Mr Barre's government.

This kind of behaviour is simply unacceptable. The UK has to choose -for good- if it really wants to be an EU member or not. It seems that Charles de Gaulle was right to mistrust the UK...
 
Klaus
Posts: 21700
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

David_itl

Thu Dec 13, 2001 4:51 am

David_itl: Klaus, this is a fundamental restructuring of each countries economy. Your statement above is true i.e. it is a Governmental decision without the consent of the people.

Not really. International economic, fiscal and monetary policies are getting more and more interdependent by the hour. Coordination is necessary anyway. Complete independence is an illusion (unless you stop trading, that is).

David_itl: Oh, excuse me, I forget myself, Denmark voted NO so we can't have a single European currency because even if all the other EU countries voted for it,

Nonsense. It just means that Denmark will stay outside of the door, not having any influence on what´s going on inside. And having to live with the outside impact nevertheless. Just like Britain.  Wink/being sarcastic
 
Klaus
Posts: 21700
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

Jwenting

Thu Dec 13, 2001 4:56 am

Jwenting: The main concern with the Euro is the inherent weakness of the currency as compared to our current currencies (due to the inclusion of the weak currencies of southern Europe).

Apart from the initial valuation disagreement, the Euro has been remarkably stable. Another thing that shouldn´t be forgotten: The Dollar is not an absolute reference. It was just a lot bigger than the other currencies so it often appeared that way.

With a comparable market size in the Euro zone, the impact of external currency fluctuation will diminish anyway. Add to that an independent and disciplined central bank and you get quite an improvement over the previous situation.

Italy, Greece and others aren´t just annoying appendages to our continent; Even when you ignore their essential contributions to european civilization, they are important markets with a lot of potential. So helping them to stabilize is in everybody´s interest.

Jwenting: The German/French domination of Europe which will only get worse when more and more sovereignty is shed to the EU is indeed also a major concern of many, though less often voiced (as it is not politically correct to do so).

Germany has about 80 million citizens and a strong economy. France (and Britain) aren´t too far behind. What exactly do you propose instead of peaceful cooperation? Back to colonial wars? National rivalry? The "good old days"?? Please excuse me if I don´t believe in those things.

EU institutions are still developing. But if you stop and actually look at what´s really happening, there´s a consistent trend away from the old-style inefficient subsidy distribution and towards an effective european parliament with proper responsibilities. It will still take a lot of work and quite some time, but it looks like we´re getting there.

The EU has given many smaller countries a lot of influence in Europe that had nothing to do with actual economic or even military power. Europe is not about achieving perfection - it´s about cooperation. And I just can´t see where that´s a bad idea.
 
eg777er
Posts: 1782
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2000 11:11 pm

RE: The Euro Is Coming ; My Tribute To Europe

Thu Dec 13, 2001 4:58 am

Oh god, here we go, more British xenophobia. Sometimes it makes me ashamed to have been born in this great country.

Certain people on this forum will wax lyrical about how the Germans lost the war and we rescued the French. Come on guys, it happened over 50 years ago! All of the people who instigated it have been dead for years. And, with the German population healthier, better educated, more mobile (DB vs. Railtrack anyone?!) and above all, wealthier, can we loose next time please!  Big grin

David_itl, renegade countries are no problem for the Euro. If everyone had had referenda, and one or two voted no, they could have opted out under the terms of Maastricht. What do you think the UK did?

And as for the EU becoming a federalised system, I don't think that will ever happen. The idea of a United States of Europe is a fallacy as there is one big barrier: language. Besides, the EU has enough on its plate for the next 20 years with enlargement up to 27 countries.

In fact, what I believe will happen is that the principle of subsidiarity will play a greater role in European affairs. This is devolution of power to the authority that is best placed to deal with it: already happening in the UK with an Assembley for Wales and Northern Ireland and a Parliament for Scotland. When power is devolved to regional assemblies in England and they have dealings with the EU in themselves, the democratic problem will be largely solved.

Here in the North East for example, the majority of people are very pleased with the EU: we've just been given a brand new bridge across the Tyne with thier money!

What I think will be very interesting over the next 5 years is the phenomenon of Euro-creep. This is where the use of Euros becomes more common across Britain even though we have yet to adopt the currency. I have seen this today for the first time - prices for my ice-skate at the Centre for Life in Newcastle were given in Euros as well as Sterling on the cash register display.

And, from Jan 1, 2002, companies as diverse as British Airways, Marks & Spencer, John Lewis, WH Smith, Dorothy Perkins, Top Shop, Evans, Miss Selfridges, Wallis, Tie Rack, Dixons, British Gas, Inland Revenue, Harrods, Body Shop, Selfridges, Virgin, General Accident and British Telecom will accept Euros. BT will even bill you in Euros if you desire.

So, it could be concievable that for the first time a country moves gradually to a foreign currency without a major political decision being made.....very interesting for those of us who study politics!
 
Klaus
Posts: 21700
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

Hepkat

Thu Dec 13, 2001 4:58 am

Hepkat: So what if it becomes federalized? That's the trend, so why fight it?

Exactly. I´ve yet to see another system that really works for larger entities.

Hepkat: Do like what the Americans did, work out a compromise to give each state an equal voice.

Actually, that´s one of our current problems: There are too many decisions that are based on unanimity instead of majority...  Wink/being sarcastic
 
Klaus
Posts: 21700
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

Ryanb741

Thu Dec 13, 2001 4:59 am

Ryanb741: That's the problem - nobody will agree as there are too many tensions in Europe.

So that´s why we´re getting the Euro in a few days...  Wink/being sarcastic

Ryanb741: At the end of the day, no matter what anyone says there are many people here in the UK who understand the many millions who died defeating the Germans and liberating the spineless French,

I see from your profile that you must have first-hand knowledge about WW II.

Have you ever considered the possibility that France just wasn´t lucky enough to have the channel as a natural moat? Grow up, kid.  Sad

Ryanb741: and there is no way on God's earth that they will sit back and let those two countries try to manipulate Europe.

Yeah, exactly like your own elected government manipulates Britain.

Ryanb741: If we had the choice to unify with the US many of us would gladly go along with it, but not Europe.

"We"? I would be surprised if you´d find a majority for that.
 
Hepkat
Posts: 2134
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2000 8:22 am

RE: The Euro Is Coming ; My Tribute To Europe

Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:00 am

I tend to agree with Cyril B. England and company will remain outside the Euro zone for now, and will later join after all the struggles and problems are worked out. It's like they really want all the benefits without getting their hands dirty.

I guarantee that in a few years when the Euro takes off, and the citizens of Euroland start rejoicing in their newly gained economic strength and simplicity of life, England, Sweden and Denmark will come humbly knocking.
 
eg777er
Posts: 1782
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2000 11:11 pm

RE: The Euro Is Coming ; My Tribute To Europe

Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:00 am

Oh, and by the way, anyone who thinks the British Government has any worthwhile control over our economic cycle is showing an almost child-like naivete  Big grin.

It's globalisation and George Soros I tell you!!  Smile  Smile  Smile
 
eg777er
Posts: 1782
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2000 11:11 pm

RE: The Euro Is Coming ; My Tribute To Europe

Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:05 am

The UKs attitude to the EU is of the person who

1. Said they didn't want to join the club.
2. Hammered down the door to get into the club.
3. Once in the club, ripped up the existing rules.
4. Tried to make new rules for the club.
5. Got offended when given the cold shoulder.
6. Stamped its foot and threatened to leave the club!

...whilst the other members were focusing on the inter-club cup!

No doubt when the EU becomes a success, the UK will miraculously turn into one of its admirers - but they probably will have burnt their boats too much to crawl back in....
 
Klaus
Posts: 21700
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

Banco

Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:09 am

Banco: You cannot equate relatively minor taxation issues with an irreversible major initiative that will have a profound impact on the nations involved.

That argument would have been in the right place when the EU was formed (which helped Britain to get out of its own economic troubles, by the way). It´s a little late now. The fundamental direction was chosen a long time ago. Changing the face on the coins is really a minor thing compared to the earlier decisions for cooperating instead of fighting with each other. The concept of Europe is a lot more fundamental.  Smile


Banco: Whilst I don't seriously expect the EU to become the USSR, the point is that the end result of a confederation created through the merging of unwilling partners tends not to be viable in the long term.

If the partners weren´t willing, there would be no EU. The comparison with the USSR is ludicrous. Just face it: You´re part of a europe-wide minorityWink/being sarcastic

Banco: The opposition to the EU in the UK is about maintaining our country as a free and independent nation.

To do what, exactly?? I´m still waiting for a plausible alternative! The European Union is a valid proposal, much of it was already found viable and solid.

Banco: I find it incredible that you can simply dismiss such a notion out of hand.

I don´t. I just haven´t heard any alternative proposal, yet. Just leaving everything as it is while all the rest of the world is changing rapidly around you doesn´t really sound like a convincing idea.

Banco: Let me put it simply: A very large number (I won't say "majority" as opinion polls are notoriously unreliable) of British people view this subject as a question of national sovereignty, even though Europe is a fabulous place why should a nation simply accept that it will be run by it?

The member nations won´t be "run by the EU". It just takes over those common functions delegated to it by the members. And it´s the old game: If you want to change the way it works, you need to participate. Maggie Thatcher was never able to destroy the Union, but she surely minimized british influence on it. Wink/being sarcastic

Don´t get me wrong: I don´t believe that Britain has it easy with this question. Continental Europe and Britain do have strong ties (no, we´re not taking back your royal familiy! Wink/being sarcastic), but the Continent and Britain have also developed significant differences.

It would require a lot more work on both sides to come to the same level of cooperation the other countries already enjoy today. But like several decades ago, Europe is also a huge chance for the UK, waiting to be taken. It will probably be tough to get it working properly, but from where I stand, it´s worth the effort.

And it´s about time Britain doesn´t just share the profit, but also some responsibility. Listening to british threats to tow the island to the other side of the Atlantic may be amusing for a while, but don´t we have a few more important things to do?  Big thumbs up

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: ER757, FlyBoy747, JJJ, luckyone, petertenthije, SQ22 and 28 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos