Guest

Time Viewpoint: Bush Losing The PR War?

Wed Mar 12, 2003 4:28 am

The Poker Player in Chief
Joe Klein, Time Magazine

EXCERPTS:

"The notion, for example, that the President of the U.S. would challenge our oldest allies to a public showdown is quite remarkable. (Presidents usually do the precise opposite: they struggle to avoid any appearance of disunity.) This is a breathtaking gamble, and the question arises: Is it witting or not? Is the Administration's disdain for diplomatic precedent a strategy — a conscious effort to challenge the institutions and arrangements of the past 50 years — or merely a matter of presidential pique? The flattery, handholding and creative fudgery that are at the heart of diplomacy are the very sort of fancy-pants flummeries that the President abhors. This has been a radical experiment — John McCain's Straight Talk Express taken global — and the results have been dreadful. If we haven't actually lost a public-relations war to Saddam Hussein, we clearly haven't won.

"It is true that Colin Powell was allowed to be diplomatic at the U.N. last fall, negotiating a unanimous vote on Security Council Resolution 1441, but that was an exception. Powell's bolder attempts at diplomacy — the attempt to negotiate with North Korea in 2001 and with Yasser Arafat in 2002 — have been thwarted by the White House. Arrogance has filled the vacuum. Significant allies like Turkey are bullied or bribed, or both; they are not consulted and not listened to."


FULL COLUMN: http://www.time.com/time/columnist/klein/article/0,9565,430984,00.html

Has Bush lost the PR battle abroad? Polls from around the world would seem to indicate that he has...

[Edited 2003-03-11 20:30:02]
 
ovelix
Posts: 606
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 1999 12:50 am

RE: Time Viewpoint: Bush Losing The PR War?

Wed Mar 12, 2003 5:17 am

"When it comes to our security, we really don't need anybody's permission."

"France and Germany are irrelevant"

"These are old Europe"

"God is with us"

"We're the finest nation full of the greatest people on the face of this Earth."

How can anyone support such arrogance? Hey, George Junior, if you are to mighty and strong and we are so irreleant, then go fight for yourself. Alone. And then sit back and wait for all the hell to break lose.

Kostas

P.S. I hope I won't be visited by certain people asking questions like "what did you mean in your post"  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
 
Sabena 690
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RE: Time Viewpoint: Bush Losing The PR War?

Wed Mar 12, 2003 5:24 am

Very true Ovelix... I'm glad that there comes a lot of reaction on Bush. The world is luckily not accepting his way of acting...

Regards
Frederic
 
ei 168
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RE: Time Viewpoint: Bush Losing The PR War?

Wed Mar 12, 2003 5:45 am

"God is with us"

Well said Ovelix.

Bush thinks he is living in the 16th Century. Using God in every sentence. Its a disgrace.

As regards the question. Yes I think he is losing the PR War.

 
lehpron
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RE: Time Viewpoint: Bush Losing The PR War?

Wed Mar 12, 2003 5:47 am

"We're the finest nation full of the greatest people on the face of this Earth"

This is fine to teach our kids in school when they are young, but it is not fine to believe it as we get older unless we've at least be outside the damned country! By then, it is arrogance, ignorance and truly pathetic.
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
 
flight152
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RE: Time Viewpoint: Bush Losing The PR War?

Wed Mar 12, 2003 6:09 am

"God is with us"

Well said Ovelix.

Bush thinks he is living in the 16th Century. Using God in every sentence. Its a disgrace.


No. Not well said Ovelix. It's mostly you people who DON'T live here which whine the most, not Americans. You guys are so unbelievably quick to bash and criticize when your leaders are ANYTHING but perfect.

If you don't like it, ignore it.
 
ovelix
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RE: Time Viewpoint: Bush Losing The PR War?

Wed Mar 12, 2003 6:59 am

It's mostly you people who DON'T live here which whine the most, not Americans

Fine. Attack ourselves instead of our views. Care to comment the opening post? Or are you here just to bash whoever critisizes GWB?

You guys are so unbelievably quick to bash and criticize when your leaders are ANYTHING but perfect.

Our leaders don't say "Vote for me with the help of God" neither "Support my war, God supports it too". Our leaders don't consider themselves Leaders of the Free World. Whoever takes the lead must expect to be critisized too.

Kostas
 
flight152
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RE: Time Viewpoint: Bush Losing The PR War?

Wed Mar 12, 2003 7:09 am

Fine. Attack ourselves instead of our views. Care to comment the opening post? Or are you here just to bash whoever critisizes GWB?

I was not attacking you. I was commenting on your post, the the orginal thread.

Our leaders don't consider themselves Leaders of the Free World.

As much as you think he is not..he is leading the free world more then any other single person.

Our leaders don't say "Vote for me with the help of God" neither "Support my war, God supports it too".

The occasional "God bless America" hardly says any of those things.

 
Schoenorama
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RE: Time Viewpoint: Bush Losing The PR War?

Wed Mar 12, 2003 7:16 am

"As much as you think he is not..he is leading the free world more then any other single person."

If that were the case, I would commit suicide!

"The occasional "God bless America" hardly says any of those things."

OCCASIONAL? You gotta' be kiddin'!!

Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
 
Staffan
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RE: Time Viewpoint: Bush Losing The PR War?

Wed Mar 12, 2003 7:19 am

"As much as you think he is not..he is leading the free world more then any other single person."

Isn't this a very very very good reason to take into account what the rest of the free world thinks about a war on Iraq?

Staffan
 
ovelix
Posts: 606
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RE: Time Viewpoint: Bush Losing The PR War?

Wed Mar 12, 2003 7:19 am

Flight

The occasional "God bless America" hardly says any of those things  Nuts

You obviously have not a clue of what's going on.

Haven't you checked your president's speeches lately? Get a clue at https://www.airliners.net/discussions/non_aviation/read.main/351161/ and

http://www.msnbc.com/news/878520.asp?0cl=cR

Kostas
 
CX747
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RE: Time Viewpoint: Bush Losing The PR War?

Wed Mar 12, 2003 7:27 am

Bush has already stated that he doesn't need U.N. approval for military action. That being said, the PR battle doesn't need to be won or lost. Yes, it would be nice if France, Germany and Russia came onboard, but with or without out them, the U.S. is going to remove Saddam from power.

As for the use of God in the President's speeches, I'm all for it. He is a religous man. Again for foreigners who don't like what we are doing, thats fine. You can have your own opinion and we can have ours.

F.Y.I. France, Germany and Russia make more money off of the current Iraqi political situation than any other countries in the world. Hmmmmmm
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
flight152
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RE: Time Viewpoint: Bush Losing The PR War?

Wed Mar 12, 2003 7:29 am

If that were the case, I would commit suicide!

Then who is? Blair? Chirac? ROFLMAO

Isn't this a very very very good reason to take into account what the rest of the free world thinks about a war on Iraq?

I didn't say that. Read what I wrote.

You obviously have not a clue of what's going on.

Haven't you checked your president's speeches lately? Get a clue


No. I have watched all of Bush's speeches, thank you very much. And if the word "god" really makes you this scared, you reallllly have some problems on your hands.
 
Staffan
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RE: Time Viewpoint: Bush Losing The PR War?

Wed Mar 12, 2003 7:31 am

"I didn't say that. Read what I wrote."

Please explain.
 
flight152
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RE: Time Viewpoint: Bush Losing The PR War?

Wed Mar 12, 2003 7:35 am

Staffan,

I did not state my fact and say that it was a " very very very good reason to take into account what the rest of the free world thinks about a war on Iraq".
 
Staffan
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RE: Time Viewpoint: Bush Losing The PR War?

Wed Mar 12, 2003 7:40 am

No, I said that as an answer to you after you said:

"As much as you think he is not..he is leading the free world more then any other single person."

 
racko
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RE: Time Viewpoint: Bush Losing The PR War?

Wed Mar 12, 2003 7:44 am

Politicans shouldn't rely on god for their decision, be it the christian god or be it allah. If they need god to justify their actions, something is going terribly wrong.

And just by the way, both the protestant and the catholic church are opposed to war.
 
ovelix
Posts: 606
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RE: Time Viewpoint: Bush Losing The PR War?

Wed Mar 12, 2003 7:52 am

Allow me to quote myself from another thread.

For those who agree with God taking sides in this conflict:

A leader may serve his people in the name of God but he shouldn't ask them to follow him in the name of God.

If you have a true and deeply felt faith in God you should keep it aside when governing a country. Practice your faith at home but when in the Oval Office (or in any presidential or PM's or King's office) is on your own serving your people.

As a writer stated in Newsweek:
The problem isn't with Bush's sincerity, but with his evident conviction that he's doing God's will.

Do you really feel fine when the president of a superpower refers to God in order to gain support for a war?

Kostas
 
ryanb741
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RE: Time Viewpoint: Bush Losing The PR War?

Wed Mar 12, 2003 7:59 am

The thing about all of this is I firmly believe if the Brits had led this we could have got commitment on Iraq quite easily. We would have compromised nad given inspectors time (not long, but a couple of months or so to see how Iraq is complying) and I reckon this would have been okay for the dissenters in Germany and France. But oh, no, Bush wants to go in NOW and has to PISS OFF all his allies because he just isn't willing to wait just a little bit, to see if there might after all be a way of avoiding the deaths of thousands of Iraqis. I want Saddam out and am willing to support force if necessary, but I would prefer it if we could at least exhaust every other option and seek a peaceful resolution (but a resolution that removes Saddam). But oh no, the Republicans have to stick their foot in their mouths and not listen to anybody - it is as if they WANT war regardless. And then the Americans wonder why people hate them and think it is down to jealousy. Bullshit is it jealousy - it is appalling foreign policy and diplomatic clumsiness and the US loses loads of friends. And ultimately, the only peple who end up suffering are the innocent Iraqi citiznes and the innocent US citizens who no doubt are being placed at enhanced risk of terrorist acts by the recless acts of their leadership. And that is very sad  Sad
I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
 
CX747
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Ovelix

Wed Mar 12, 2003 8:00 am

On every piece of United States Currency are written these words, "IN GOD WE TRUST". This is our country and our leaders have always had Judeo-Christian ties. The majority of us are Christians and have little or no problem with the President's use of God in his speeches.

The time to act is now and the American people led by their President are moving forward. We feel along with many other nations that Saddam Hussein is a dangerous threat to our safety and the safety of our Allies. We have consulted with the world and notified them of our intentions. We have consulted with our Allies and gone through the proper international channels. The time has come for the United States, Great Britain and Spain to act. If Greece does not wish to participate that is fine. In a kind tone, I ask you to step aside.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
Staffan
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RE: Time Viewpoint: Bush Losing The PR War?

Wed Mar 12, 2003 8:03 am

"We feel along with many other nations that Saddam Hussein is a dangerous threat to our safety and the safety of our Allies"

That's why there are UN inspectors in Iraq making sure that that Saddam can hurt no-one.


[Edited 2003-03-12 00:03:47]
 
CX747
Posts: 6098
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:54 am

Staffan

Wed Mar 12, 2003 8:07 am

"That's why there are UN inspectors in Iraq making sure that that Saddam can hurt no-one."

The U.N. inspectors couldn't find a needle in a stack of needles. They have not been successful in any shape or form. Has Saddam at times agreed to destroy some weapons? Yes he has, but only when the military muscle of the United States stands ready to act. 12 years and counting and still on disarmament. That is FAILURE. No more cat and mouse games, no more confusion and lies.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
Dash8King
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RE: Time Viewpoint: Bush Losing The PR War?

Wed Mar 12, 2003 8:11 am

The time has come for the United States, Great Britain and Spain to act. If Greece does not wish to participate that is fine. In a kind tone, I ask you to step aside.

CX747 I wish that every person who supported the war did what you did and that was respect the countries who do not feel it is the right time to go in.

 
ovelix
Posts: 606
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 1999 12:50 am

RE: Time Viewpoint: Bush Losing The PR War?

Wed Mar 12, 2003 8:17 am

The majority of us are Christians and have little or no problem with the President's use of God in his speeches

His speeches is one thing, his God-refering war rhetoric is another.

The time to act is now and the American people led by their President are moving forward.

You are wrong. The majority of the people don't support a war without UN approval.

We feel along with many other nations that Saddam Hussein is a dangerous threat to our safety and the safety of our Allies. We have consulted with the world and notified them of our intentions.

And GWB is ready to attack with or without allies, with or withoun UN, with or without reason.

We have consulted with our Allies and gone through the proper international channels. The time has come for the United States, Great Britain and Spain to act.

We? Who are We? You? LOL!! Yeah! Stay on that little white cloud of yours, totally enchanted by your beloved President. God will win! Evil will lose!

If Greece does not wish to participate that is fine. In a kind tone, I ask you to step aside.

LOL! You are confused. This is not your back yard, this is an Internet forum. I will not step aside because you ask me to. Who are you to ask me to step aside? Pathetic!

Kostas
 
Dash8King
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RE: Time Viewpoint: Bush Losing The PR War?

Wed Mar 12, 2003 8:20 am

I don't think he meant you as a person but all countries that do not support Ovelix.
 
Guest

RE: Time Viewpoint: Bush Losing The PR War?

Wed Mar 12, 2003 8:25 am

CX747 wrote:

"Bush has already stated that he doesn't need U.N. approval for military action. That being said, the PR battle doesn't need to be won or lost. Yes, it would be nice if France, Germany and Russia came onboard, but with or without out them, the U.S. is going to remove Saddam from power."


But this attitude -- that the rest of the world is irrelevant -- is very dangerous. Someday we will need the support of our allies, and we will have difficulties getting them onboard after Bush has treated them and their citizens this way.

And it is not unthinkable that, say, China may one day consider invading Taiwan, arguing that "if Bush did what he wanted in Iraq -- without a broad international concensus -- they we have the right to do the same with Taiwan if we consider it in our national interest."

Since the US is so involved globally, the opinion of others is not just relevant; it's crucial.
 
Guest

RE: Time Viewpoint: Bush Losing The PR War?

Wed Mar 12, 2003 8:40 am

Guys,

Bush, Blair and Howard have lost the PR battle with the rest of the free world. The British and Australian public are horrified with their leaders comments and even more horrified by the irresponsible and arrogant comments coming from the American government.

I support regime change in Iraq (and still do) but it has been exceptionally badly handled by the US government.

MB

 
captaingomes
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RE: Time Viewpoint: Bush Losing The PR War?

Wed Mar 12, 2003 8:44 am

Well said PHX. Bush will set a precedent by going to war with Iraq without UN consent. It basically means that international law is irrelevant as long as the country has the power to do so. Bush should use his power to ensure the UN enforces international law more stringently, rather than going his own way and making his own rules. Those rules will bite him in the ass one day if he's not careful.

I'd also be careful with the Bush being the leader of the free world crap. Arrogance like that wont get you very far. The United States is just one component in many that form the free world, but Bush isn't acting like that's the case.
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
WiLdmanVzla
Posts: 590
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RE: Time Viewpoint: Bush Losing The PR War?

Wed Mar 12, 2003 8:53 am

Only the iraquis bureocrats don´t support the idea about replacing Sadaam Hussein as the president of Irak... but I´m having the idea that more & more americans are getting into the idea of replacing that "little minded cowboy" as their president!!!!!!!!!!!!.

Bush is going to lose all wars he´s facing... he´s loosing the war against terrorism (where's Bin laden?)... and his worst nightmare is to lose his oediphical war against his father (Bush Sr. did it a lot better as a president).

By the way, I totally agree with what Ovelix wrote... that 'republican' arrogant point of view is a shame... .

"Bush: The most powerful person of the free world"?????????????????????... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA... being a leader is not only be in a position as a president, to be a leader is to act like one!!!!!!.

*******
 
CX747
Posts: 6098
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:54 am

Ovelix, PHX-LJU

Wed Mar 12, 2003 10:11 am

Ovelix: Bush has in no way shape or form started "God refering war rhetoric". Does he refer to God in his speeches? Yes he did. We are not entering this war because "God" is on our side. We are entering this war because Saddam Hussein threatens the entire world and time for sanctions has come to an end. All avenues have been exhausted.

The majority of AMERICANS support this war. In all fairness, what you think as a non-U.S. citizen has little or no affect at this time. You may have your own opinion, in fact I welcome. We have our opinion and are going forward with it. As for U.N. approval, the President has already stated that we do not need "their" approval. He is following OUR Constitution. While I believe in a world community, I don't believe in putting the worlds opinion ahead of our own. We are not running around bombing innocent nations and acting with total disregard to everything. The U.N. has sanctioned action against Iraq in the PASSED resolution 1441.

Yes, The President of the United States is ready to go to War with or without allied support and U.N. support. This won't be the first or last time a country does so. Operation Allied Force was a non-U.N. sanctioned military movement.

As for using the term "We" when refering to the U.S., yes I mean we. I have elected officials to government offices to consult on behalf of ME. Thats the way democracy works.

As for this being my backyard, your are correct. In my backyard, right is right and wrong is wrong. When someone stepped out of line and put my brother or friend in danger, it wasn't tolerated. I have not asked you to step aside, but was stating that the Country of Greece should now step aside. You are more than free to express your opinions. Just kindly remember that it was God fearing, American Boys who came across the pond for WWI, WWII and backed down the U.S.S.R. You may not like our religous feelings, but that is not a reason to attack someone.

PHX-LJU: First off, do you live in the Phoenix area? I'm currently living life in the ever present sunshine and flying everyday. Is there a better way to live!!!!

I will agree that our attitude is unilateral and is putting a bind on some of our friendships. Here is a question though. You state that at some point in the future we will need the support of our allies. Where is there support now? Why the sudden turn against us? Could it be that France, Germany and Russia have close ties to current Iraqi regime and make more money through trade than anyone else?

The rest of the world is not irrelevant. The U.S. has gone to great pains to explain to everyone what there stance is. We have debated and consulted everyone countless times. The time for debate is over. They have their opinions and we have ours.

China and Taiwan is a different story in my opinion. Taiwan hasn't invaded any neighboring countries in the past decade, used chemical weapons on enemies and its own citizens along with shot at U.N. sanctioned no-fly zone enforcers. They are also not led by a Dictator who only wants to bring harm to others.



"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
Guest

RE: Time Viewpoint: Bush Losing The PR War?

Wed Mar 12, 2003 10:37 am

CX747 wrote:

"First off, do you live in the Phoenix area? I'm currently living life in the ever present sunshine and flying everyday. Is there a better way to live!!!!"

I live in Scottsdale and, no, I don't think there is a better way to live! However, I'd probably give you a different answer in July or August.  Big grin

"You state that at some point in the future we will need the support of our allies. Where is there support now? Why the sudden turn against us? Could it be that France, Germany and Russia have close ties to current Iraqi regime and make more money through trade than anyone else?"

While those countries do have some trade links with Iraq, I don't think that is the chief reason behind their stance. In practically all European countries, public support is overwhelmingly against the war. It is easier for a large and influential nation such as France or Germany to publicly oppose Bush's policy than a smaller, inconsequential country like Slovenia. That does not mean that Germany or France are driven primarily by some ulterior motives.

And don't forget that our allies have largely been behind us in the recent past, such as in the anti-terror war in Afghanistan or the intervention in Yugoslavia. They will continue to support us on many important things in the future; our foreign policy objectives could never be acomplished without them. As I am opposed to the war in Iraq, I would not like to see our alliances collapse over what I consider an unnecessary conflict; a conflict that may also end up creating dangerous new precendents.

"The rest of the world is not irrelevant. The U.S. has gone to great pains to explain to everyone what there stance is. We have debated and consulted everyone countless times. The time for debate is over. They have their opinions and we have ours."

But see, this creates an impression that it was all a take-it-or-leave-it offer. As Klein says in the article above, "Significant allies like Turkey are bullied or bribed, or both; they are not consulted and not listened to." When we consider invading a country, we cannot just say, "If you don't agree, tough luck, we'll proceed anyway." If we do that, we create a precedent that may come back to haunt us.

"China and Taiwan is a different story in my opinion. Taiwan hasn't invaded any neighboring countries in the past decade, used chemical weapons on enemies and its own citizens along with shot at U.N. sanctioned no-fly zone enforcers. They are also not led by a Dictator who only wants to bring harm to others."

You and I realize that Taiwan is a different story, but China may see a parallel: "If the US took care of a regime it considered illegitimate, we have the right to do the same to a government we despise." Once a precedent is created, it is hard to return to the status quo.
 
CX747
Posts: 6098
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:54 am

RE: Time Viewpoint: Bush Losing The PR War?

Wed Mar 12, 2003 10:50 am

I'm currently soaking up the sun in Avondale. Are you headed to Luke's show next weekend?

France and there friends have a little more than slight economic ties with Iraq. From the Arizona Republic, "Here is a little background on France and Iraq.

France did $1.5 billion dollars worth of business in Iraq during 2001.

Under the "Food for Oil" program, France has made $3.1 billion dollars since 1996.

At last November's Baghdad International Trade Fair, 1,200 I repeat One Thousand and Two Hundred French companies were present.

TotalFinaElf a FRENCH oil company is the dominant oil company in Iraq currently. Russian oil giant LUKoil is owed $8 billion by Iraq dating back to the 1980s. Payment of this is ongoing.

As for them backing us in during Allied Force, it was more to the tune of come help us with this problem that we as a continent can't stop. While their military operated side by side with ours, the command structure was different. They only bombed certain areas that in all reality had little or no affect on the outcome. We bombed were the enemy was and turned the tides.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
Guest

RE: Time Viewpoint: Bush Losing The PR War?

Wed Mar 12, 2003 11:21 am

CX747,

The economic ties certainly are there, but I don't think that is the chief reason why those countries oppose the war (just as I don't feel that Bush's enthusiasm for the conflict is solely economic). The main reason, I believe, is the overwhelmingly anti-war public sentiment in Europe. If that were not the case, France would probably not be nearly as vocal in its opposition to the conflict; now it knows that it is riding the wave of public opinion. Also bear in mind that Germany has far fewer economic ties with Iraq, yet it is just as critical of the war as France and Russia.

I don't know if I'll make it to Luke. I usually enjoy the Scottsdale AirFair, but I missed it last year.  Sad

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