Anyways the picture shows that he must have seen her. She didnt just pop out of the ground, she has been standing for a while. I think this is inexcusable.

So you think the driver did it intentionally??? You're kidding us, right? I thought KROC was the comedian mod.

The Tiananmen (spell it correctly) Square protests of May-June 1989 were about trying to bring to light the corruption of the Communist party, and to try and bring about more openness in the government (a la Eastern Europe).

This girl, and the Palestinians she supported, are focused on the utter destruction of a government, a nation, and its people. Big difference there.

Actually, this girl was tyring to protect the innocent victims of the agressive Israeli regime. Your analogy is incorrect.

Weather the Arab democratize or not is none of mine or your business.

actually it's irrelevant to this discussion. I find the "Yeah but the arabs ... "argument to be childish and irrelevant. Two wrongs have never made a right.

with regards to post, how fast was the bulldozer gooing if the drivers does see someone in the way? is it possible the driver couldn't have cared less?,

I would assume it wasn't moving that fast, but it's entirely possible the driver couldn't care less. Unless she was wearing an "I'm american" t-shirt she would just look like another one of those "murderous palestinians".

How about the five American students killed in the cafeteria bombing in the university in Jerusalem?

Tbar, you're comparing the actions of a terrorist organisation to the actions of a supposed army. I agree with you, there is little difference (if any) between the two organisations. That's our point.

My god! if those pictures are accurate then there can be NO QUESTION that she was seen by the driver. None at all.... It also negates jtw's argument. She was wearing bright items to bring her to the attention of the tractor driver, she was without headwear and she was yelling with a loudspeaker .. I can only hope that these pictures are misleading and this did not occur as set out there. There is most likely a fair time between the first and the second picture, but still ...

I think the main motive to erase houses is to avoid tunnels from Egypt to Rafah (Rafah is close to the border) being hidden, several tunnels being

Just an excuse .... where is the house in the picture above? what exactly was he digging up? If there was no reason to be digging there, perhaps her death was murder?

TWA

I would say that if those pictures are real, then he did indeed do it deliberately. There is a lack of anything worth bulldozing there and she is very brightly dressed.





ADG

This photo is pretty telling. You can see the bulldozer operators head in the cab. Now look where she was standing. There are two very serious pieces of metal between him and her, The hydraulic piston on the left side of the dozer for raising the blade and the stack for the engine.

As he would have approached the height of that blade on the D-7 would have started to block her out too. As the engine cowl was starting to do too.

I don't think he was able to see her, despite that orange vest.



She should probably be racked up in the same category as that logging protester who was trying to stop logging by running trough the felling area and get hit by the tree.

She is truly a hero.

I don't get it. What makes her a hero?

The fact she didn't stay in the operators line of sight?


Or...

The fact she didn't move even when being born down upon by a land dinosaur?

remember that guy standing in front of a tank and refusing to move in china? I consider him a hero. He stood up for what he thought was right. She did too. That makes her a hero.

Tragic in that any loss of life always is.
Heroic in that she got off her ass and acted on her strong convictions.
Predictable in that throwing oneself in front of a bulldozer is to place ones self in danger of being killed.

We'll all have differing opinions as to whether removing her from the gene pool is a good or bad thing, I certainly have mine, but she knew what she was doing, and all of our speculating over whether she could been seen is moot, as we were not there and will likely never know.

I'll only say this. What a waste.
Interpret that however you want.

Here's a better pic of her.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2856433.stm

I guess for some, she all of a sudden doesn't look such a 'lefty extremist' as they imagined.

[Edited 2003-03-17 23:42:39]

I am really shocked by this. This was a needless death. It would not have been hard to avoid her.

Tom

Tom-

It also would not have been hard to avoid being hit by the bulldozer in the first place.

I'm saddened by this girl's death, but seriously...what did she expect when playing chicken with a bulldozer?  

How about verifying the autheticity of those other pics? Until somebody gives me a credible source as to where those photos came from, I dont take them seriously.

Since when do you take anything seriously?

There was a picture.....taken from a distance........where a woman wearing a bright red jacket is standing in front of a buldozer...and what appears to be some sort of construction behind her, I thought it was on the BBC website but now I can't find it.

You know something, here is another thought.

These pictures don’t show what EXACTLY happened because they were taken in different locations!

In the first picture, where she is standing, there is nothing on the right side and she standing on a small hill. In the second picture, where she is on the ground, there is something that looks like a fence on the right side and some bushes. Also she is in some “valley” that created by the bulldozer. Since both of the pictures when taken from the same angle, they were not taken on the same location!!! (The distance is probably small but she was not hurt where she was standing so you can’t say the operator saw her or anything else according to the first picture.

Here is a link to another site that show pictures of her, one of them after she was hit.
This picture proves she wasn’t run over again and again (or even once) by the bulldozer. She probably hit in her head by the bulldozer blade.

http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article1248.shtml

To all who think the operator didnt see here. He actually backed up and ran over her twice!!! Please dont gimme that shit. I am truly shocked!!

Heres a pic for ya:


TOm

Marcus,
You can find that photo on the link I just gave.
By the way, she was not hit there. It was somewhere else. She probably followed the bulldozer wherever it went.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/030316/170/3j98y.html

Does anyone know if the driver will face charges?

Avion,

1) She did get hit but it didn’t run over her. Not once, not to mention twice (do you have any idea what would happen to her if it ran over her?)
2) Take a look at the 2 pictures again and focus this time on the lights at the top of it. It is not even the same bulldozer.

Yes, she was hit and killed by a bulldozer but it amazing how many lies this people spread (or try to)

I have to say that my comments include the "if the pictures are real", I have my doubts about the second picture's authenticity and the timeframe between picture 1 and 2. But the fact remains that she was dressed appropriately and claims that they "didn't see her" are moot.

She wasn't, after all, partaking in action that put the tractor driver at risk. He was not performing a duty that would save his life. He was performing a duty of destruction and I don't think any amount of destruction justifies killing a person.

I still feel this was a deliberate act.




ADG

I missed the lights, you are right those are two different bulldozers....

It looks like the one on the bottom picture was following the first. Notice the cat tracks that aren't on the first one that are on the second.

This backs up my theory that the driver wasn't able to see her.

I also don't see any tread marks from a reversed bulldozer, they always push up mound of dirt in soft ground like that (I have been around a lot of construction). I don't see that in that photo. Admittedly the photo is pretty dark but those piles of dirt are really distinct.

Based on the photos here, The following can be concluded.

She was standing where the driver of the first dozer couldn't see her.

The operator of the first dozer did not attempt to back up an run over her a second time.

The operator of the second dozer did see what happened and stopped in time.

L-188

Please explain how you can accurately make those decuctions from the 2 pictures because I can't see how you can possible get any of those deductions from the pictures.






ADG

I explained how I deduced the driver couldn't see her through the hydraulic ram that lifts the blade and the stack in an earlier posting on this topic. That comes from that first picture.

If you compare the first and second photos, in the first one there are no bulldozer tracks where she is standing, in the second she is clearly lying between (albeit slightly to the left side of the bulldozer, consistent with her position in the first photo) the tracks of a bulldozer, A bulldozer sits in the background, notice the different arrangement of the lights on the cab and the different way the grating on the blade is bent on the two rigs. Two different tracks.

If you look in front of the photo of the second tractor you will see where it had advanced and then backed up, there is a little mound where the 2nd bulldozer started to back up. You are looking at the side of the mound away from the machine that made it. The lack of lug marks in the dirt betrays this, That mound was made by the second machine, well short of her position, so it didn't run over her. There is no set of mounds from the first machine which should display marks from the lugs of the tracks (similar to tire tracks).

From this I deduce the first machine (the one that hit her) went on without stopping, The first machine saw what happened, stopped and then backed up to make room. This action by the second operator may be the source of the backing over story.

Granted this assumes that her corpse in the second photo is laying where she went down. I don't believe she has, It looks like it was taken moments later.

I switched to a brighter monitor from my earlier posting, which is why I didn't see those mounds earlier, But I don't think that it was intentional, and I don't buy the story about the machine backing over her. The photographs that have been displayed don't work with it.

Hope I answered your question ADG.

She really looks hard to see... she is shorther than the damn plow itself...

You know from this angle that looks like a D9.

Quite a bit larger then the D7 sized dozer in the other view.

The driver sits a good 8 feet in the air.

Found a couple of pictures of IDF D9 CATS.

Conviced now that it what it is. It is a pretty massive beast. The current Commercial D9R model weighs in at 50 tons







There is no way that the operator ever knew he hit anything.

L188,

I don't agree that you can deduce what you did from the pictures. I agree that your story may have been an accurate one. However, I still question that the first driver did not see her. It is the responsibility of any driver to be appraised of who is in front of the tractor. To not be so is negligent.

I also never subscribed to the theory that he backed up over here, indeed it appears that she was never run over at all, they say she was buried by being pushed by the tractor.

You need to understand the reaction here, in our countries there are incidents regularly with big machinery and protestors. They just don't run the protestors over, when you see this you KNOW that they are not interested in the well being of the people in front of the tractor.

You shouldn't legitimise their actions, the next kid in front of a tractor might be your own!






ADG

You shouldn't legitimise their actions, the next kid in front of a tractor might be your own!

Highly unlikely. Most kids don't go around aiding & abetting terrorists, as was this misguided girl.

The Tiananmen (spell it correctly) Square protests of May-June 1989 were about trying to bring to light the corruption of the Communist party, and to try and bring about more openness in the government (a la Eastern Europe).

This girl, and the Palestinians she supported, are focused on the utter destruction of a government, a nation, and its people. Big difference there.

Actually, this girl was tyring to protect the innocent victims of the agressive Israeli regime. Your analogy is incorrect.


I don't remember the students ever using violence against the government, or against people in the CCP. They were angered by the corruption in the government during that time of opening up. They were mad at the likes of Chen Xitong, the then mayor of Beijing municipality, who were embezzling money left, right, and sideways. They wanted those people out, and they wanted people who would make their government more transparent to the laobaixing. They sat in the square peacefully, and tried actually TALKING with reps from the government that went to see them. They didn't attack them, didn't dismiss what they were saying out of hand. Now, compare that to the Palestinians.

The Palestinians have harbored hundreds of homicide bombers (I refuse to call them suicide bombers) who target noncombatant citizens doing such shocking things as..RIDING A BUS, or....EATING IN A PIZZA PARLOR! Their government has turned down peace proposals that have not given them total control of Jerusalem, they celebrated in the streets when the twin towers fell, and the families of the homocide bombers readily accept compensation for their "loss" from that humanitarian of humanitarians, Saddam Hussain!

BIG differences, wouldn't you say?

If this was an Israeli army bulldozer in the Gaza strip as reported on the news.............then I find it odd that there are no military personel in the pictures.....surely the driver would have not been sent alone to demolish constructions in a "hostile" environment, so I wonder......was the driver alone with his bulldozer?.........if there were others with him then why we can't see them in the pictures?.......if there were others with the driver then why wasn't the driver alerted of people in front of the bulldozer?

This enrages me to the mildest degree. The bulldozer operator is guilty of manslaughter or first degree murder. I can't for sure now if he saw her or not but face charges he damn well should.

Marcus.

The Israelis fitted their bulldozers with armored cabs, to prevent the drivers from getting shot. They also help protect the operator from mine explosions, which was one of the main reason the military has the bulldozers. Since the drivers are protected they don't need the escorts they would otherwise.

The problem with these cabs is that a lot of the visibility that you would have in a civilian cab or an open cab is gone. Replaced by armored steel and ballistic glass.

Looking at the first photo enlarged, you can just see the silhouette of drivers head in the cab. It is hard to tell but it seems to me that bump is a hearing protector he is wearing. I think he was looking at the photographer that took that photo. Look at that middle photo I posted of the IDF Bulldozer, the one that is from the front left side. I think that is Reasonably close to the angle which she is standing in the first photo. You can see how it would block the drivers view.

I still feel this was a deliberate act.


ADG

Absolutely. She deliberately got in front of the oncoming bulldozer.

Yzy,

Highly unlikely. Most kids don't go around aiding & abetting terrorists, as was this misguided girl.

Most people dont' like to point out their ignorance in such a public way.

Marcus,

There are many "inconsistancies" on both sides of this issue. It's very difficult to really decide what probably really happened.

EA,

Certainly she did, and then he DELIBERATELY ran her down.




ADG

See that is where I disagree with you.

I again say that there was no way that the operator (does it have to be a he?) saw her.

Another sign that they are two different dozers, look at the lights on each one at the top.

Certainly she did, and then he DELIBERATELY ran her down.


ADG

Was she nailed to the floor or something? Did other bulldozer drivers hold her in place? Was she trying to set a world record for staring down heavy equipment?

It occurs to me that 99% of the blame rests with the girl for being in front of the business end of a bulldozer in the first place.

She certainly bears some responsibility but she is American and she has grown up knowing that her own government puts her life before any property she may have placed hereself in front of before.

So I would say that at most .. 50% responsibility. Maybe even less.

It's not often you get into a country that will run you over during a peaceful protest. I think that's the point isn't it?






ADG

Hi ADG,

just thinking how the situation would be if this incident with a US citizen took place in an arab country! i think Mr. Bush would have added this country to the axis of evil and sent some troops over there.

Best regards
Amir

Amir,

I suspect your right ....




ADG

It's not often you get into a country that will run you over during a peaceful protest.

It's not often that a peaceful, democratic nation is surrounded by hostile dictatorships bent on its destruction, but such is Israel's situation.

Israel has the right to defend itself against terrorism. This misguided girl was aiding & abetting terrorism.

Yes Yyz717
Israel has the right to protect itself. I do 'appreciate' their messaures which also include:

Killing civilians who throw stones, Occupying others land since 1967.

Of course they have the right! but not all are terrorists. If i come and occupy your house and squeeze you into the bathroom, and you start fighting me, do you then become a 'Terrorist'?



Rgds
Amir

Occupying others land since 1967.

Those lands were occupied after Isreal was attacked. Israel fought back & occupied the land. Israel has long stated that a peace agreement can result in the return of the land. Egypt made peace with Israel and Israel returned the Sinai peninsula to Egypt.

All Syria & the PLO have to do is recognize Israel's right to exist and its pre-1967 borders.

So i conclude: if a country is attacked, it has the right to keep part of the land of the 'Attackers'
A very smart coclusion!

regardsless of the this, why do you think Israel was attacked at first place? not because Arabs are hostile but simply because with the declaration of the State of Israel (1948) almost one million palestinians were forced out of their home mainly to Jordan, Lebanon and Syria. So who is the Attacker here?

Rgds
AMir

not because Arabs are hostile but simply because with the declaration of the State of Israel (1948) almost one million palestinians were forced out of their home mainly to Jordan, Lebanon and Syria.

I agree with you partially. The Jewish homeland SHOULD have been placed in Germany or Poland, not the Mid East.

Nonetheless, if you look at a map of the Mid East, Israel only takes up a very small component....less than 1%. The displaced persons could have been accepted as refugees by Arab states, as Israel accepted as refugees the expelled Jews from the Arab world.......but Arab countries don't seem interested in human rights and certainly don't want Palestinian immigrants.

Dear Yyz717: it's not about saying ..Nonetheless...
The base of which this state was created is false, so the only way to correct and rectify the situation is to work on the base.

And Sorry but this is rubbish to say that the Arab countries could have accepted them as refugees...... Please!
If Canada is invaded and the Canadians are left without a country, then i can't say that the US can giveup 1% of it's land to harbor the Canadians.... sorry this is too much for me i wil stop this discussion.

Regards
Amir

The base of which this state was created is false, so the only way to correct and rectify the situation is to work on the base.

Israel has been around since 1948. It's not going away. Arab hostility has only made Israel stronger.

Sorry but this is rubbish to say that the Arab countries could have accepted them as refugees

Why not? Are Arab countries racist? Why can't they also accept refugees? let's face it.....Arab countries don't appear very concerned about Palestinian welfare.....it's just a convenient anti-Israeli crutch.

It's not often that a peaceful, democratic nation is surrounded by hostile dictatorships bent on its destruction, but such is Israel's situation.

We are obviously not talking about the same "Israel". I'm talking about the war mongering nation who exists only becuase of the goodwill of the United States of America who has a long history of opressing and murdering it's neighbours who appear to have a valid cause against Israel.

Israel has the right to defend itself against terrorism. This misguided girl was aiding & abetting terrorism.

The majority of the violence, inluding (I suspect) this incident occurs outside the land of "Israel". Making Israel the agressor rather than the victim you are trying to make them.





ADG

may have already been covered...don't know and don't feel like taking the time to read everone else's response, so here goes...

are you really going to tell me that an american woman's life is worth less than the life of a chinese student in tianamen square (i know the spelling is wrong...)? you've got to be kidding me! and we're s'possed to give israel $12 billion in aid this year? FUCK THAT!

almbluzman

$12 billion? Dont make me laugh. Nice way to really inflate that figure though. You got a reliable source for that number?