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Superfly
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Lincoln Aviator 'Kitty Hawk' Edition

Wed Sep 17, 2003 8:45 am




Although I am not a fan of 'luxury SUVs', I am glad to see Ford continue it's aviation/automotive heritage. It's most recent ode to aviation comes the Lincoln Aviator Kitty Hawk Edition celebrating 100 years of flight.

http://www.lincolnvehicles.com/default.asp

http://www.new-cars.com/news/030318-lincoln-navigator-kitty-hawk.html
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cptkrell
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RE: Lincoln Aviator 'Kitty Hawk' Edition

Wed Sep 17, 2003 8:51 am

Dear Superfly...I wrote old buddies at Ford Styling suggesting this new model be called "Spruce Goose"...jack
all best; jack
 
vaporlock
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RE: Lincoln Aviator 'Kitty Hawk' Edition

Wed Sep 17, 2003 8:52 am

Wow, Ford sure picked an interesting name for this new SUV. I've done lots of reading with regard to the "Wright Bros" and I guess because "Orville & Wilbur" had very good friends @ Ford, they were able to get funding so that they could build & fly the "Wright Flyer".

Personally, I'd rather have a 65' Mustang!

Phyllis  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
 
Superfly
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RE: Lincoln Aviator 'Kitty Hawk' Edition

Wed Sep 17, 2003 8:54 am

Hey Ms. Lock!  Smile

I'd take the 1965 Mustang over the any SUVs too.
But I am very happy with my Town Car.  Smile
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vaporlock
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RE: Lincoln Aviator 'Kitty Hawk' Edition

Wed Sep 17, 2003 8:54 am

Cptkrell, don't laugh but I work as a Graphic Designer for one of the largest Pen manufacturers in North America.

The owner is really really old and is also an aviation lover. Most of our pens are named after aircraft.........one being the "Spruce Goose"......the pen is made out of Rosewood or Maple and the outside is real wood!

Phyllis  Big thumbs up
 
vaporlock
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RE: Lincoln Aviator 'Kitty Hawk' Edition

Wed Sep 17, 2003 9:02 am

Superfly, I agree.....the Town Car is an amazing car.....the lines are fantastic and the inside is very comfortable..........hmmmm.......we won't go there!!  Innocent

I'd also love to have a 69 GTO Judge or a Cuda with a Hemi engine....there are so many older cars that have such class & style.  Smokin cool

Phyllis  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
 
Superfly
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RE: Lincoln Aviator 'Kitty Hawk' Edition

Wed Sep 17, 2003 9:06 am

Vaporlock:
Well it sounds like your a lady that enjoys the feeling of thrust and muscle moving you forward. You may want to check out the new Mercury Maraurder!  Smokin cool
302 HP out of a multivalve 4.6 liter V8, in a full-size body on frame sedan with large back seat and live rear- axle.  Big grin
Bring back the Concorde
 
AvObserver
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RE: Lincoln Aviator 'Kitty Hawk' Edition

Wed Sep 17, 2003 9:11 am

A case of too little, too late. It was reported on the Car and Driver website that the Aviator was to be discontinued after 2005, another recent Ford victim of poor sales due to an overly inflated pricetag (after the demise of the absurd and WAY overpriced Lincoln Blackwood truck, the soon to go nice but overpriced T-Bird and the probably dead, overpriced and underpowered Mercury Marauder). Way to go Ford, not exactly 'flying high' are you? (And I speak as a Ford owner!) Instead of more 'boutique' models, how about some realistic pricing? My 2 cents!  Yeah sure
 
Superfly
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RE: Lincoln Aviator 'Kitty Hawk' Edition

Wed Sep 17, 2003 9:14 am

AvObserver:
Fasct/figures on these discountinued models please?

The Blackwood was an emberassment and they just left it up to Cadillac to make the stupid idea of a luxury pick-up truck.
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vaporlock
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RE: Lincoln Aviator 'Kitty Hawk' Edition

Wed Sep 17, 2003 9:15 am

Superfly............you crack me up, I do love to "step on it" and feel the G's push you back in your seat and I will make a point of checking out the Mercury Maraurder!

I'll be really honest and tell you that I'd rather buy an older car......I currently have an 86 Cutlass Supreme, 2 door. Dark navy blue w/ lots of chrome trim and NO BODY FILLER. Its' not running right now....I'm looking for a replacement engine....it currently has a 302 V6 but I'd love to drop in a 350/4B Chev engine. From what I understand the engine mounts are the same and the car has posi-traction so it should be able to handle the extra power??? Not 100% sure but 99%......I love cars and learning what makes them tick....

Phyllis  Smile/happy/getting dizzy


 
cptkrell
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RE: Lincoln Aviator 'Kitty Hawk' Edition

Wed Sep 17, 2003 9:29 am

Vaporlock, you probably work w/ Len, then. Very nice product lineup. BTW, I would disagree w/ you on the "Judge", I think (always have thought) the car name was kind of corny. I think it might have been a Jim Wangers (apropos name) wet dream, but really, I guess all Goats are cool (except the BOF X-car derivatives).

Superfly, just ragging on the Spruce Goose name, but, you gotta admit, the Marauder is just a Crown Vic with the old (Caprice) Impala SS formula. I sure wouldn't mind driving one, though!! Back to the Kitty Hawk Edition...maybe they should have called it the "Wilbur" ?  Smile
...jack
all best; jack
 
Superfly
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RE: Lincoln Aviator 'Kitty Hawk' Edition

Wed Sep 17, 2003 9:35 am

Cptkrell:
you gotta admit, the Marauder is just a Crown Vic with the old (Caprice) Impala SS formula

Your 100% correct and that's a good thing.
I like the panther platform Fords (Crown Victoria, Grand Marquis, Maraurder & Town Car).
That platform is a tested and solid platform that's been with us for 24 years.
There's no need to go back to the drawing board when you have a good product in place. The mark up on the Marauder is a bit too high though.
Bring back the Concorde
 
cptkrell
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RE: Lincoln Aviator 'Kitty Hawk' Edition

Wed Sep 17, 2003 9:50 am

Sfly...Right on. I really hope that FoMoCo's future BOF RWD platform for Crown Vic, etc. doesn't get screwed up. GM and DC have new edition BOF RWD platforms right around the corner, and that too, is a good thing, especially with on/off traction control and computerized braking/active susp. The FWD wimps only accelerate straight (a bit) better in goo and spill. They sure don't turn or stop. Speaking of turning, don't you love turning a RWD car with the rear wheels?...jack
all best; jack
 
Superfly
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RE: Lincoln Aviator 'Kitty Hawk' Edition

Wed Sep 17, 2003 9:53 am

Cptkrell:
Rear drive cars are so much more fun to drive.  Smokin cool

By the way, what does "BOF" mean?
Bring back the Concorde
 
cptkrell
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RE: Lincoln Aviator 'Kitty Hawk' Edition

Wed Sep 17, 2003 10:12 am

Sfly...Sorry...I was using my auto acronyms...BOF = Body On Frame, like the Crown Vics, the old Impala and most SUVs. The vehicle has a complete, seperate frame to which the body is dropped onto, as opposed to BFI, or, Body Frame Integral, which is what basically used to be called Unitized Platform, where the "frame" rails are actually part of the floorpan, like most of the FWD spam cans so popular today...Jack
all best; jack
 
Superfly
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RE: Lincoln Aviator 'Kitty Hawk' Edition

Wed Sep 17, 2003 10:17 am

duh, I should have known! Embarrassment

I am a body on frame fan myself!

The GM B-bodies were better than the Ford competitors in the 1990s. GM foolishly dropped it!  Pissed
That's one of the many reasons I like Ford the best because they don't change as much.
When ever GM has a better product than Ford, they kill it.

[Edited 2003-09-17 03:18:39]
Bring back the Concorde
 
 
Superfly
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RE: Lincoln Aviator 'Kitty Hawk' Edition

Wed Sep 17, 2003 10:28 am

AvObserver:
Thanks for these disturbing links.

I think the fleet fuel average has a lot to do with the Maraurader's poor performance. What Ford should do is simply drop the Navigator engine in the Marauder and then you'll have a respectable muscle sedan.
Because the Navigator is an SUV, it's exempt from the fuel efficency standards that cars have to comply to.
The Navigator comes with a 5.4 liter, 32 valve V8 instead of the 4.6.

Ford can do the same with the Thunderbird too. The 4.6 is the same engine as the 4.6.

I am glad the Blackwood is history. Let Cadillac continue making that sort of garbage.
Bring back the Concorde
 
cptkrell
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RE: Lincoln Aviator 'Kitty Hawk' Edition

Wed Sep 17, 2003 10:34 am

Sfly...man, you got that right! I fought a losing battle for over ten years at GM Design on the Body On Frame issue. Now that I'm retired, BOF's the "new" rage. Funny thing you mention the old GM BOF bodies...the Olds Cutlass was the BEST selling car in North America for 3? 4? years or so, then they just HAD to come out with the new "W" FWD platform to reinvent what a lot of folks "needed". Consequently, Oldsmobile Division, the longest running single nameplate in the U.S. has wiped off the map and dissolved. Talk about the dummy criminal scam artists at Enron. Sheesh. I actually had a chance to kill Roger Smith and get away with it...but, well, I guess I'm too old fashioned and don't believe in that stuff. Wonder how many people suffered from his non-competence, though?

Getting back to the "Kitty Hawk" thread, the name is a wise marketing move, but I'll just bet you it will be flash in the pan after a couple of years. Ford could very well maintain a product identity by carrying on "Aviator", "Navigator", etc., but I'll bet you a six-pack that the ad gurus will come up with something "new" that will confuse people down the road. These are very capable vehices, BTW, but without being prejudiced, I do believe the GM line is better in most respects. I'm sorry that DC dropped their plans for a Suburban/Navigator fighter. Competition is good...jack
all best; jack
 
Superfly
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RE: Lincoln Aviator 'Kitty Hawk' Edition

Wed Sep 17, 2003 10:49 am

Cptkrell:
You were a fly on the wall at GM in there last glory days?  Wow!
Wow, I would love to pick your brain a bit and ask why GM went forward with so many stupid ideas. I think the Buick Roadmaster was the greatest full-zise family sedan/wagon ever build. I still think the AMC Eagle was the greatest overall .

Back to the Aviator.
Since this is a comemorative item celebrating 100 years of flight, it should only be availible for 1 year anyway.


AvObserver & Cptkrell:
Do you think that Ford is making the same mistake they made in the late 1950s when they introduced the Edsel?
A fine looking automobile in a higher price range coming out during a recession.
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cptkrell
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RE: Lincoln Aviator 'Kitty Hawk' Edition

Wed Sep 17, 2003 11:37 am

Edsel was a combination of mistakes...maybe we discussed this in a past thread? Briefly, other than styling, and I'll comment on that later, was the economic climate of the time and the fact that FoMoCo was actually introducing a new car that would compete more with itself than GM, Chrysler. The term recession is bantered freely, but the Edsel was introduced in a true recession; bad timing to launch a new high-dollar product. People often forget that Chrysler's DeSoto and the Packard disappeared in the Edsel cancellation (1960) time-frame. Furthermore, because of the economic climate, FoMoCo strapped themselves heavily cash-wise to finance new dealers, distribution networks, etc., and their coffers were greatly handicapped by the venture. The buying public, in general, was not willing to go to the bank for a new car, let alone an all-new car, and that was a built-in handicap for sales. As far as the model lineup structure went for Division, there was Ranger, Pacer, and Citation, all priced just a few dollars more than equivallent Ford Division offerings, other than a high-end, loaded Citation that came close to Mercury. Chrysler's cars as well as GM's Chevrolet through high-end Oldsmobile models were close, but, remember, it would take a lot to get a GM buyer out of their showrooms and Plymouth, Dodge and the soon-to-be-dropped DeSoto were suffering from (justifiably) bad quality raps. Even with aggresive styling for the time, Chysler was sucking hind tit.

Now, the styling thing, and this, of course is personal with every individual issue, the mainstream buyer was taken aback with the grille motif. I thought it was kinda cool (and LOVE it today), but mom'n'pop werent so sure. The press had a field day, too..."Oldsmobile sucking a lemon", "Horse collar grille",etc. My own family frowned. The 1959 model toned-down the apppearance dramitically, and by 1960 the car was little more than a Ford with vestigal tweaks (the 1960 Ford, BTW, was the most "perfectly" styled entry-level cars of all times; why sales weren't so good is a result of not only the recession, but people's perceptions (another thread). I have the HONOR of having as my boss at Ford Styling, Mr. Roy Brown, chief designer of the Edsel, and most quoted (in an interview on an international flight, I belive)... "Mr. Brown, you have often said that you always are thinking of a woman when you are styling a car. What part of a woman's bodey were you thinking of when you designed the Edsel grille?" ...Jack
all best; jack
 
Superfly
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RE: Lincoln Aviator 'Kitty Hawk' Edition

Wed Sep 17, 2003 11:44 am

Cptkrel:
Oh man, did he have an answer?  Laugh out loud
Bring back the Concorde
 
AvObserver
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RE: Lincoln Aviator 'Kitty Hawk' Edition

Wed Sep 17, 2003 11:46 am

Superfly, in a word, YES! Ford's pricing minions must think we're still in the dot.com boom era. Aviator's a FINE SUV but it should be at least 8 grand cheaper. Ditto the T-Bird. Marauder needs a lot more low-end grunt (like the '94-'96 Impala SS) to vindicate its' muscle car pretense, otherwise it should be 5 grand cheaper. And the Blackwood was just plain stupid, EVEN compared to the ugly Escalade! At least the Cadillac can be used like a real truck, having a proper cargo bed and with all-wheel-drive. The pricier Lincoln had a lined 'trunk' where the cargo bed was supposed to be, making it impossible to use what was actually a gussied-up F-150 as a pickup! AND, it was rear-wheel drive only-NO WONDER it was such a flop. It was an overpriced, impractical lifestyle statement, much like the Hummer H2 (don't even get me started on that one!). The bottom line is: Ford has lately been too much out of touch with the market, wasting its' scarce R&D dollars on such questionable exercises, rather than improving its' bread-and-butter product line-the Taurus, in particular, sorely needs an update, even though Ford is rushing new 500 and Futura sedans to augment and eventually replace it.
 
Superfly
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RE: Lincoln Aviator 'Kitty Hawk' Edition

Wed Sep 17, 2003 11:48 am

AvObserver:
Shhhhhhhhhhh.......!!!!!!!
Don't mention that Blackwood thing. It was an embarassment! Big grin
Bring back the Concorde
 
cptkrell
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RE: Lincoln Aviator 'Kitty Hawk' Edition

Wed Sep 17, 2003 12:00 pm

I have a "secret" story about the Blackwood wood that is quite embarrassing (and, unfortunately, it must remain a secret as some parties envolved would kill me)...but suffice it to say that the Blackwood excercise was highly modified from its' inception. Had FoMoCo issued original product planning to the production venture, the vehicle would have enjoyed more success. Not to state that I am a guru, or anything close to such, as proof, I personally never felt that the Escalade lineup would have nearly approached the success it is now enjoying. I can at least be thankful that I didn't open my big mouth up on that one, and as painful as it is to me, I must give the product planners a high-five on that call...jack
all best; jack
 
Superfly
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RE: Lincoln Aviator 'Kitty Hawk' Edition

Fri Sep 19, 2003 4:18 am

Cptkrell:
Since the Thunderbird is based off the Lincoln LS, Jagaur S-Type and next generation Mustang, could the Thunderbird go down in price a little and thus sales increase?
I would hate to see this car go. Even without the dealer markup, $41,000 is a lot of money for this car.
When they first hit the showroom, they were asking as much as $55,000 at a Ford dealer here in San Francisco.
Bring back the Concorde
 
AvObserver
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RE: Lincoln Aviator 'Kitty Hawk' Edition

Fri Sep 19, 2003 10:40 am

"Since the Thunderbird is based off the Lincoln LS, Jagaur S-Type and next generation Mustang, could the Thunderbird go down in price a little and thus sales increase? I would hate to see this car go. Even without the dealer markup, $41,000 is a lot of money for this car."

Superfly-brilliant! Why doesn't the Ford marketing staff think like this?

"I still think the AMC Eagle was the greatest overall."

Yes it was! My father, mother and stepmom owned them, among other AMCs. Eagle was the ancestor of all of today's 'crossovers', including the Subaru Outback and the Chrysler Pacifica, the modern-day equivalents. I owned several AMCs myself, though not Eagles. I think AMC, overall, was the greatest!  Big thumbs up

 
AWspicious
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RE: Lincoln Aviator 'Kitty Hawk' Edition

Fri Sep 19, 2003 2:09 pm

I thought the 302 was a Ford only engine and that the GM comparison was a 305 and that both these engines were V8s  Confused
Nevermind political correctness - Envision using your turn signals!
 
cptkrell
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RE: Lincoln Aviator 'Kitty Hawk' Edition

Fri Sep 19, 2003 10:56 pm

Sfly & AvObs...I don't know about the bill of process on the TBird and li'l Lincs, and also don't really know about Ford's price structure on the 'Bird. I agree that the high-end dollars probably put a lot of consumers off. Too bad. I really like the little roadster as a boulevard cruiser. With a little luck and revisited marketing planning, perhaps they'll change current plans to drop the model. I can ask some Ford buddies over some beers, but would imagine that even if they knew anything, they wouldn't be at liberty to be specific.

I brought one home from GM for the weekend after they first went on sale. We had disassembled and reassembled it for competitive product evaluation, so it wasn't exactly production, but I liked driving the car and wifey did, too.

AWspicious...Chevy makes (made?) a 302 V8 also, as a matter of fact, the very first Z-28s were all 302s. The basic "small block" Bunkie Knudson Chevy design has been produced in a zillion cubic-inch derivatives from the original 265 CID to 400 CID with "siamesed" cylinders...Jack
all best; jack
 
Superfly
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RE: Lincoln Aviator 'Kitty Hawk' Edition

Sat Sep 20, 2003 1:31 pm

Cptkrell:
Do what you can to save the Thunderbird!
Bring back the Concorde
 
LOT767-300ER
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RE: Lincoln Aviator 'Kitty Hawk' Edition

Sat Sep 20, 2003 1:59 pm

"Vaporlock:
Well it sounds like your a lady that enjoys the feeling of thrust and muscle moving you forward. You may want to check out the new Mercury Maraurder!
302 HP out of a multivalve 4.6 liter V8, in a full-size body on frame sedan with large back seat and live rear- axle.
"

Rumor has it that the Marauder will become the next generation Police Interceptor with a modified 4.6L V8 (Modded Mustang engine)

Plenty of power to pick up those rice Acuras that infest our roads today.
 
Superfly
Topic Author
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RE: Lincoln Aviator 'Kitty Hawk' Edition

Tue Sep 23, 2003 2:14 am

LOT767-300ER:
Isn't the current police interceptor using the Maurader engine?

I wish they just drop in the 5.4 liter Navigator engine. It's the same block. It has more low-end torqu and high-end power than the police interceptor.
Bring back the Concorde

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