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jhooper
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Bush To Announce Missions To Mars, Moon

Fri Jan 09, 2004 11:53 am

By SCOTT LINDLAW, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON - President Bush (news - web sites) will announce plans next week to send Americans to Mars and establish a permanent human presence on the moon, senior administration officials said Thursday night.


Bush won't propose sending Americans to Mars anytime soon; rather, he envisions preparing for the mission more than a decade from now, one official said.


In addition to a returning trip to the moon for the first time since December 1972, the president also wants to build a permanent space station there.


Three senior officials said Bush wants to aggressively reinvigorate the space program, which has been demoralized by a series of setbacks, including the space shuttle disaster last February that killed seven astronauts.


The officials, speaking on condition of anonymity, said Bush's announcement would come in the middle of next week.


Bush has been expected to propose a bold new space mission in an effort to rally Americans around a unifying theme as he campaigns for re-election.


Many insiders had speculated he might set forth goals at the 100th anniversary of the Wright brothers' famed flight last month in North Carolina. Instead, he said only that America would continue to lead the world in aviation.


Earlier, White House spokesman Scott McClellan told reporters traveling with Bush in Florida that the president would make an announcement about space next week, but he declined to give details.


House Science Committee spokeswoman Heidi Tringe said lawmakers on the panel "haven't been briefed on the specifics" but expected an announcement.


Rep. Ralph Hall, R-Texas, a member of the House Science Committee, said he welcomed the move because he has tried to get the president more interested in space exploration.


"I had the feeling the last 2 1/2 years people would rather make a trip to the grocery store than a trip to the moon because of the economy," Hall said. "As things are turning around, we need to stay in touch with space" and the science spinoffs it provides.


This week, NASA (news - web sites) landed a six-wheeled robot on Mars to study the planet. However, the Spirit rover is stuck because the air bags that cushioned its landing are obstructing its movement.


Asked Wednesday whether the success of the Mars rovers could lead to a human mission to Mars, NASA Administrator Sean O'Keefe said, "The rovers are a precursor mission — kind of an advance team — to figuring out what the conditions are on the planet, and once we figure out how to deal with the human effects, we can then send humans to explore in real time."


While answering questions on the White House Web site, O'Keefe said interplanetary exploration depends on "what we learn and whether we can develop the power and ... propulsion capabilities necessary to get there faster and stay longer and potentially support humans in doing so."


No one, least of all members of Congress, knows how NASA would pay for lunar camps or Mars expeditions. The last time a president pushed such ambitious ideas — the first President Bush on the 20th anniversary of the first manned moon landing — the estimated price tag was $400 billion to $500 billion.


The moon is just three days away while Mars is at least six months away, and the lunar surface therefore could be a safe place to shake out Martian equipment. Observatories also could be built on the moon, and mining camps could be set up to gather helium-3 for conversion into fuel for use back on Earth.


House Majority Leader Tom DeLay, R-Texas, among others, has called for an expansion of the U.S. space program, including a return to the moon. The United States put 12 men on the moon between July 1969 and December 1972.

An interagency task force led by Vice President Dick Cheney (news - web sites) has been considering options for a space mission since summer.

Former Ohio Sen. John Glenn, the first American to orbit the Earth, has said that before deciding to race off to the moon or Mars, the nation needs to complete the international space station and provide the taxi service to accommodate a full crew of six or seven. The station currently houses two.

At the same time, Glenn has said, NASA could be laying out a long-term plan, setting a loose timetable and investing in the engineering challenges of sending people to Mars. The only sensible reason for going to the moon first, he says, would be to test the technology for a Mars trip.


 
Dasheighty
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RE: Bush To Announce Missions To Mars, Moon

Fri Jan 09, 2004 11:56 am

Yeah knowing our luck they'll be using regional Jets for the trip
 
PiedmontGirl
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RE: Bush To Announce Missions To Mars, Moon

Fri Jan 09, 2004 11:57 am

I never met a space program I did not like. The last time a President spoke about going into space it was Jack Kennedy. Wow! That was over 40 years ago.
 
DeltaSFO
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RE: Bush To Announce Missions To Mars, Moon

Fri Jan 09, 2004 12:00 pm

$400 to 500 billion, eh? Nothing like some nice deficit spending.... what the hell, what's another nickel or dime of ours against the Euro?
 
usairways85
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RE: Bush To Announce Missions To Mars, Moon

Fri Jan 09, 2004 12:02 pm

About time the space program gets some support. Ever since the space of the 60's ended it's like space program has taken the back seat. Sure we've seen the development of the space station, but why no other missions to space in 30 years
 
ouboy79
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RE: Bush To Announce Missions To Mars, Moon

Fri Jan 09, 2004 12:10 pm

About freaking time. There is no reason why we aren't already on the moon and Mars. Hopefully this will get slumping industries and companies growing and get some people back to work. Imagine working at Boeing or Lockheed-Martin designing the first space ship to travel distances in. Imagine being the one who finds a way to design a propulsion system that can get us to Mars with in a day or two.

Heres to the opening of the first Starbucks or Wal-Mart on the moon and/or Mars.  Smile
 
milesrich
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RE: Bush To Announce Missions To Mars, Moon

Fri Jan 09, 2004 12:12 pm

This is just more pablum for the bushies. How are we going to pay for this? Or maybe if we provide more tax cuts, that will increase revenues so much we will be able to afford it. Just what we need, another big government spending program. I wonder if Haliburton is going to become a space contractor.
 
futureualpilot
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RE: Bush To Announce Missions To Mars, Moon

Fri Jan 09, 2004 12:14 pm

Dasheighty, I doubt they'll have a snack service either....


This should be interesting to watch develop...maybe my children will be watching the first man on mars along with me someday...?
 
n844aa
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RE: Bush To Announce Missions To Mars, Moon

Fri Jan 09, 2004 12:59 pm

This may actually be fiscally prudent, believe it or not. Just think of all the technologies and advances that were spurred by the first major era of the space program. Teflon, microcomputers, Tang, and so on and so forth. A statistic commonly batted around is that for every dollar spent on the space program, seven dollars are returned to the economy. So while I generally don't agree with deficit spending, particularly the way this administration has conducted it, this could very well be a helpful injection of money into the economy and good for the U.S. The aerospace industry and associated high-skilled manufacturing jobs are vitally important to the United States' position at the forefront of the world economy, and this would be a wonderful way to breath some life back into the sector.

That said, I don't see the point of a permanent moon base. I'd wait on that until we get fusion reactors, and we're in need of a steady supply of H3. In the meantime, I'd concentrate on a permanent, manned, non-boondoggle obiting (or possibly something at a Lagrangian point) station geared toward the assembly and launch of future spacecraft. Or better still, a space elevator, but we'll probably see that around the time we get those fusion reactors online.

I'm intensely jealous of that fifteen-year-old out there who's going to be the first person to walk on Mars.
 
magyar
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RE: Bush To Announce Missions To Mars, Moon

Fri Jan 09, 2004 1:57 pm

Just more hot air from a man who wants to be reelected.
 
gigneil
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RE: Bush To Announce Missions To Mars, Moon

Fri Jan 09, 2004 2:01 pm

I have to admit, this is the first time that Dubya and I are in strong agreement.

I fully support his position on this matter, if he means it.

I would die, literally, without Tang.

N
 
JBirdAV8r
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RE: Bush To Announce Missions To Mars, Moon

Fri Jan 09, 2004 2:17 pm

There is no reason why we aren't already on the moon and Mars.

Sure there is: The Space Shuttle, one of the biggest mistakes the US has ever made (at least in spaceflight).

Many may disagree...but if you research it, you might change your mind.

I sincerely hope that we do commit ourselves to this goal....

I say bring back the Saturn V  Big thumbs up
 
n844aa
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RE: Bush To Announce Missions To Mars, Moon

Fri Jan 09, 2004 2:29 pm

The Space Shuttle was a pretty amazing technical achievement -- I'm still somewhat shocked that it's 1975 technology -- but it's also the definition of a money pit, and apparently not all that safe either. It's too bad it never lived up to expectations. If it had, it would have been something special. As it is, I agree with your assessment, JBirdAV8r. Here's an article written in 1980 about why the space shuttle was doomed to failure. This is before it ever flew, by the way. Talk about prescient.

The Saturn V, on the other hand, is technology I can't believe we ever allowed to fade away. That booster is amazing, and it's probably exactly the sort of thing we'll need for this return to the stars.
 
Mir
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RE: Bush To Announce Missions To Mars, Moon

Fri Jan 09, 2004 2:33 pm

Yes, it's about time, but this guy is biting off way more than the country can chew financially. One cannot fight a constant war, send people to a different planet, and cut taxes at the same time and hope to remain with anything to keep quality of life in this country (which is already going down) at its current level. Unless he has some sneaky way of getting money which we don't know about, one of those things has to give in. So, what's it going to be?

If we're going to do this, we should at least get the rest of the world in on it. Maybe divide up the costs somewhat. I'm sure Europe, China and Russia would love to be a part.

It's still not going to make me vote for him though.
 
N754PR
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RE: Bush To Announce Missions To Mars, Moon

Fri Jan 09, 2004 5:28 pm

Is this Civil aviation??
 
Joni
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RE: Bush To Announce Missions To Mars, Moon

Fri Jan 09, 2004 6:42 pm


A manned Mars mission could do wonders for space technology as a whole, if it entailed development of nuclear thermal propulsion and gaseous-core fission reactors, which are handy technologies for a number of applications.



 
buckfifty
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RE: Bush To Announce Missions To Mars, Moon

Fri Jan 09, 2004 10:03 pm

Probably gonna cost more than a trillion dollars (literally). Even Dr. Evil would never dream of that one.

Oh, waitaminute...
 
Guest

RE: Bush To Announce Missions To Mars, Moon

Fri Jan 09, 2004 10:32 pm

One word: Sweeeeeeet! I can't wait to see it happen.

-Normal
 
globalexpress
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RE: Bush To Announce Missions To Mars, Moon

Fri Jan 09, 2004 11:54 pm

This is very exciting.

But I hear its going to run in to the hundreds of billions of dollars? I hope it doesn't take too much of a toll on your finances - remember, Bush Snr. abandoned such a project because of the cost. With $400 billion going to defence, I hope the economy can handle it.
 
L-188
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RE: Bush To Announce Missions To Mars, Moon

Fri Jan 09, 2004 11:55 pm

Well we did get WD-40 and Velcro out of the Moon program.

Who knows what we will get from a Mars program.
 
globalexpress
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RE: Bush To Announce Missions To Mars, Moon

Fri Jan 09, 2004 11:56 pm

My respect.

But not your money back? Unless I guess if you find some sort of alternative to oil.. thats not a dig at Bush btw  Smile
 
MD-90
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RE: Bush To Announce Missions To Mars, Moon

Sat Jan 10, 2004 12:01 am

If Bush appointed Robert Zubrin to run the show the United States could send men to Mars for less than $50 billion using Zubrin's Mars Direct plan.

But I say skip the moon. It's too inhospitable. Mars is practically a paradise of wealth in comparison. And I heartily agree that the ISS and the Space Shuttle are both expensive boondoggles mucking around in low earth orbit where we've learned most all of what we need to know. On to Mars!
 
SSTjumbo
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RE: Bush To Announce Missions To Mars, Moon

Sat Jan 10, 2004 12:33 am

A question I have for only some of you, what would you rather see Bush spending money on? War on Iraq or a new space program? Perhaps if he focuses on the latter he'll lose track of the former. Just a small thought  Big grin.
 
globalexpress
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RE: Bush To Announce Missions To Mars, Moon

Sat Jan 10, 2004 12:53 am

If Bush had announced plans to go into further space exploration rather than to war with Iraq, I would have been far happier. FAR happier.

But then again, I would have been a tad cynical about his motives - as all other anti-Bushians among us are  Big grin
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Bush To Announce Missions To Mars, Moon

Sat Jan 10, 2004 1:07 am

There was never real research done on the moon back in the 70´s . The Apollo project was just a political game back in the cold war days, to beat the Russians. As soon as it started to become interesting, that means the technological problems concerning how to get there were ironed out it was stopped. As far as I know the only real scientist on the moon was a geologist on the last mission. It is time to return and to finish the business, esp. since it looks as if there might be frozen water around. Another thing is that as far as I know NASA destroyed all the Saturn 5 blueprints and spec data, as well as the launching equipment, don´t ask me why, but making it impossible to rebuild a Saturn 5. Imagine an improved Saturn 5! Replace those big heavy computers with modern gear and use advanced materials where ever feasible!. Also, as some people said before, the moon would enable us to try out equipment for the exploration of Mars at much less cost and danger, if necessary it will only take 3 days to get back to earth compared to between 6 months and two years for mars.
But I feel that Bush´s program is just going down the patriotic drain again, probably fueled by China´s flight to the orbit. All he wants to do is to show to the world that the US can send a man to Mars, then the project will be forgotten again.

Jan
 
Boeing Nut
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RE: Bush To Announce Missions To Mars, Moon

Sat Jan 10, 2004 1:54 am

Man to Mars? A base on the Moon?????? What the hell for???? Yes, I understand that it's in man's nature to explore and discover. Hell, we've got spacecraft on Mars as we speak doing basically the same thing man would do. Collecting samples and data. But I don't understand the spending of billions upon billions of dollars for something that is needless. Nevermind that healthcare spending is out of control. Nevermind that the US is still way behind on education reform. Etc, etc, etc.

OK, I am going to some a bit contradictory here, but I am a massive fan of the Space Shuttle and the International Space Station. The Space Shuttle for putting satellites into orbit and even fixing them in orbit. Constructing the International Space Station. Both of these programs have already discovered/demonstrated technology that will benefit us here on Earth!!!

Sure there is: The Space Shuttle, one of the biggest mistakes the US has ever made (at least in spaceflight).

Many may disagree...but if you research it, you might change your mind.


You may want to practice what you preach. Yes, it is a white elephant, but to say it's a mistake is simply asinine.

Buckfifty,

Probably gonna cost more than a trillion dollars (literally). Even Dr. Evil would never dream of that one.

Oh, waitaminute...


Gotta give ya a big ^5 for that one man!!!!!! ^5 LMAO  Laugh out loud


[Edited 2004-01-09 17:56:47]

[Edited 2004-01-09 17:58:09]
 
b757300
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RE: Bush To Announce Missions To Mars, Moon

Sat Jan 10, 2004 1:57 am

Actually, NASA has said that all of the Saturn V blueprints are still around and preserved. Not only does the manufacturer (or its successor company) still have their copy, but NASA's are also stored away in the government archives.

I wish just once people could stop going ape because it is something President Bush proposes. I never liked Clinton but despite all he did that I did not agree with, I never hated Clinton. Some people here are so consumed with hate for Bush it is eating away at their life. You can tell by how they bring him into every post regardless of the topic.
 
AvObserver
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RE: Bush To Announce Missions To Mars, Moon

Sat Jan 10, 2004 6:13 am

Boeingnut, the long term advantage of going back to the Moon, in addition to harvesting of raw materials that could be used on earth in say, construction or fuel-technology, is to help pave the way for a manned mission to Mars. The long term advantage of such a mission would not be to merely explore but to pave the way for an eventual settlement. Though it might generations to 2 or 3 centuries to do it, scientists have worked out details on how Mars could be terraformed so its' environment would be compatible with ours, except for lower gravity and likely being colder. I elaborated more on this in the other thread and you may see it as a pipe dream but there may come a day when human survival may be dependent upon leaving the earth. Having another place to go, like Mars, might just save us from extinction. Far more federal dollars are wasted on politically motivated pork-barrel projects for this, that or another state and in government programs besieged with fraud. You seem to be one of the short-sighted folks I talked about that can't see the big picture about where the conquest of space can lead us, no offense intended.
 
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Aloha717200
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RE: Bush To Announce Missions To Mars, Moon

Sat Jan 10, 2004 6:57 am

Hmmm, two threads going on this subject.


I'll post what i wrote in the other one:


Whether it's PR or not, I hope that this happens. I mean how exciting would it be to have lunar missions again? Big grin

But 2013?

That seems pretty far off, and if Bush is proposing that we land on mars in a decade's time, that's right around 2014 or 2015.

So that means our first missions to the moon will only begin two years before we set off to mars?


Seems to me thats not enough time to set up a permanent moon base. If this happens, I hope we see the next lunar landing around 2009, NOT 2013.
 
AvObserver
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RE: Bush To Announce Missions To Mars, Moon

Sat Jan 10, 2004 7:09 am

Aloha717200, nobody's landing anyone on Mars in only a decade, re: the quote: "Bush won't propose sending Americans to Mars anytime soon; rather, he envisions preparing for the mission more than a decade from now, one official said." That's only a timetable to start preparing for such a mission; the timetable for the mission itself isn't set. We don't want to do a crash program like Apollo, it would cost way more and be fraught with risk. This would be a relatively leisurely, well-thought out effort. I suppose it might be 25 to 40 years after that date before the mission would actually be launched. Just a guess.
 
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Aloha717200
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RE: Bush To Announce Missions To Mars, Moon

Sat Jan 10, 2004 7:12 am

Md11Engineer:


Another thing is that as far as I know NASA destroyed all the Saturn 5 blueprints and spec data, as well as the launching equipment, don´t ask me why, but making it impossible to rebuild a Saturn 5.


Nonsense. The blueprints and specs are still in NASA's posession.


What sense would it make to destroy the blueprints when NASA has a 3/4 size mockup of the Saturn V at Kennedy Space Center, which people see every single day?

Makes not a shred of sense. I'd like to know where you heard this at.
 
flyingbronco05
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RE: Bush To Announce Missions To Mars, Moon

Sat Jan 10, 2004 8:34 am

Good to see our tax dollars being spent in the right places.  Yeah sure

Seriously, what is the point in going to mars?

FB05
 
AvObserver
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RE: Bush To Announce Missions To Mars, Moon

Sat Jan 10, 2004 9:09 am

FB05, read my post in the other thread. Feel free to disagree if you like but I feel the ultimate rationale for going to Mars is quite sound, as long as it's a multi-national effort and not a political stunt like Apollo, though I still feel the moon landing effort was worthwhile in terms of the space infrastructure it caused to get built and the technological spinoffs from it that trickled down to consumer level. Because of the electronics revolution sparked largely by the space effort, we got hand-held calculators and digital watches, among other advances. What getting to Mars could ultimately mean for the human race may well be beyond quantifying at this time though I can see important possibilities even now.

Aloha717200, MD11Engineer could be right but I agree it would be illogical to destroy the blueprints for the Saturn V unless there was a national security mandate to prevent them from ever falling into an unfriendly nation's hands. The production capability to manufacture them was dismantled long ago; restoring that would be a big obstacle in restarting production and probably we'd want a new generation heavy-lift expendable booster anyway, something a lot simpler in design than the S-5 which was enormously complex, an awful lot to go wrong.
 
GDB
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RE: Bush To Announce Missions To Mars, Moon

Sat Jan 10, 2004 9:53 am

OK, assuming this is for real, you have to think beyond politics and consumerism on something as big as this.
Motives? Who cares?
Columbus was out for a ton of loot for himself, was he wrong?
In fact, very few great explorations or discoveries had entirely auturisitc roots.

Bush is no JFK, but who sustained Apollo, who pushed for it in the first place until Soviet successes made up JFK's mind?
LBJ that's who, a crass Texan who happens to have a pretty decent grip (whether you like it or not) on Capitol Hill.

Forget this stuff about Teflon, which was developed in the 30's, imagine the US economy today without, or with a less developed, microelectronics industry.
Spurred by Apollo, yes it would have happened in time, but not in the way it did, not as fast as it did and maybe not as much in the US.

Apollo was America's crowning glory, any true American is proud of it.
Think about it, a dream of mankind for 1000's of years was realized by your nation, if you think of it in those terms, the motives suddenly become much less relevant.

Shuttle is not a long term option now, low Earth orbit has to be done as cheap as possible, but still the best time for space exploration (and useful national spinoffs for the US) was done in the era of Apollo, the Voyagers and Vikings that followed were started then too.
Until recently, it had stagnated.
The biggest proponents for manned Mars exploration are the teams viewing Mars day by day via the Global Surveyor probe, they know how much you can ultimately explore with even the best unmanned systems.
The biggest scientific payload from the Moon was via Apollo, especially the 3 final 72 hour surface time 'J' missions.

ISS is limited, now it can have a spinoff, for initial lunar operations take a modified design of a ISS module, add landing legs, retro rockets, fold out 'roof' of micrometeorites shield and solar panels.

Get the Lunar H3 on Earth and actually developing clean fusion power becomes easier and more likely.
Don't write off the Moon, it's barely been explored, anyway surface EVA experience and the technology needs to be matured before Mars.

But why explore? We are human, had our distant ancestors not explored out of what is now Africa, then spread throughout the world, they may have not survived say a bad drought or maybe their development may have been slowed, retarded.
It's hardwired into us.

Keen US kids now studying, think of the opportunities, be a part of something you will tell your grandchildren about.

I hope these proposals become reality.
And I don't much care about who is in charge to launch it, I'm no fan of GWB, I understand the political motives, you have to live with that.
China has started now, OK there spacecraft technology is way behind the US, but they don't have to worry about the political cycles, once they start they'll not stop.
Fancy their human rights record when they are the major spacefaring nation?
As much as I don't like GWB, you can not compare him with them and pretend to be rational.









 
Venezuela747
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RE: Bush To Announce Missions To Mars, Moon

Sat Jan 10, 2004 11:24 am

Too many problems in this world (hunger, economics, terrorism) to try to go into another planet.
 
GDB
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RE: Bush To Announce Missions To Mars, Moon

Sat Jan 10, 2004 11:37 am

And NASA's huge cutbacks in the early 70's really sorted out hunger didn't it?
When is the right time, there's always problems.
A few less Swiss bank accounts belonging to leaders of many nations suffering from hunger would have a greater effect.
 
AvObserver
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RE: Bush To Announce Missions To Mars, Moon

Sat Jan 10, 2004 12:25 pm

GDB, another amazing post, showing you have a firm grasp on why this is important. Sadly, as other posts show, there are still plenty of others who don't see the big picture and they are in the majority in the general public, I'm afraid. Organizations like The National Space Society and The Planetary Society have their work cut out for them to educate the public on the worth of all this, especially since they're often at odds with each other over the preferred approach: NSS favors manned spaceflight, PS favors robotic exploration. I feel both approaches complement each other and are needed. But the common citizens must be convinced of the value or it will never happen. I admit that convincing them may be space advocates' biggest dilemna.  Sad
 
LoneStarMike
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RE: Bush To Announce Missions To Mars, Moon

Sat Jan 10, 2004 12:43 pm

Everyone is certainly entitled to their own opinion and I respect that, but I am in disagreement with the majority of the posters on this thread so far. I oppose this space mission for two reasons.

1. In the early-1990s, there was a group of ideologues and power-politicians on the fringe of the Republican Party's far-right. The members of this group in 1997 would found The Project for the New American Century (PNAC);  their aim was to prepare for the day when the Republicans regained control of the White House -- and, it was hoped, the other two branches of government as well -- so that their vision of how the U.S. should move in the world would be in place and ready to go, straight off-the-shelf into official policy. 

This PNAC group was led by such heavy hitters as Donald Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney, James Woolsey, Paul Wolfowitz, Richard Perle, Bill Kristol, James Bolton, Zalmay M. Khalilzad, William Bennett, Dan Quayle, Jeb Bush, most of whom were movers-and-shakers in previous Administrations, then in power-exile, as it were, while Clinton was in the White House. But even given their reputations and clout, the views of this group were regarded as too extreme to be taken seriously by the mainstream conservatives that controlled the Republican Party. 

To prepare the ground for the PNAC-like ideas that were circulating in the HardRight, various wealthy individuals and corporations helped set up far-right think-tanks, and bought up various media outlets -- newspapers, magazines, TV networks, radio talk shows, cable channels, etc. -- in support of that day when all the political tumblers would click into place and the PNAC cabal and their supporters could assume control. 

This happened with the Supreme Court's selection of George W. Bush in 2000. The "outsiders" from PNAC were now powerful "insiders," placed in important positions from which they could exert maximum pressure on U.S. policy: Cheney is Vice President, Rumsfeld is Defense Secretary, Wolfowitz is Deputy Defense Secretary, I. Lewis Libby is Cheney's Chief of Staff, Elliot Abrams is in charge of Middle East policy at the National Security Council, Dov Zakheim is comptroller for the Defense Department, John Bolton is Undersecretary of State, Richard Perle is chair of the Defense Policy advisory board at the Pentagon, former CIA director James Woolsey is on that panel as well, etc. etc. (PNAC's chairman, Bill Kristol, is the editor of The Weekly Standard.) In short, PNAC had a lock on military policy-creation in the Bush Administration.

Source for the above quote, with more background on this organization.

The Project for the New American Century <--(link to their official website) is a non-profit educational organization dedicated to a few fundamental propositions: that American leadership is good both for America and for the world; that such leadership requires military strength, diplomatic energy and commitment to moral principle; and that too few political leaders today are making the case for global leadership.

The Project for the New American Century intends, through issue briefs, research papers, advocacy journalism, conferences, and seminars, to explain what American world leadership entails. It will also strive to rally support for a vigorous and principled policy of American international involvement and to stimulate useful public debate on foreign and defense policy and America's role in the world.

I believe we have every right to decide what's right for our country but we have no business deciding (without input from other nations) what is good for the rest of the world. Who died and left us in charge?

This is part of an article from The Sunday Herald printed on September 15, 2002 about the PNAC.

The PNAC report also:

refers to key allies such as the UK as 'the most effective and efficient means of exercising American global leadership';l describes peace-keeping missions as 'demanding American political leadership rather than that of the United Nations';

Well we've certainly got the ball rolling on that one.

lt reveals worries in the administration that Europe could rival the USA;

Those worries continue today.

It says 'even should Saddam pass from the scene' bases in Saudi Arabia and Kuwait will remain permanently -- despite domestic opposition in the Gulf regimes to the stationing of US troops -- as 'Iran may well prove as large a threat to US interests as Iraq has';

Or we could just have a base in Iraq. Remember, it's all about location, location, location.  Smile

It spotlights China for 'regime change' saying 'it is time to increase the presence of American forces in southeast Asia'. This, it says, may lead to 'American and allied power providing the spur to the process of democratisation in China';

It calls for the creation of 'US Space Forces', to dominate space, and the total control of cyberspace to prevent 'enemies' using the internet against the US;

BINGO! That's what this space mission is all about -- to get the ball rolling on the research and development we will need to undertake in order to achieve this goal.

It hints that, despite threatening war against Iraq for developing weapons of mass destruction, the US may consider developing biological weapons -- which the nation has banned -- in decades to come. It says: 'New methods of attack -- electronic, 'non-lethal', biological -- will be more widely available ... combat likely will take place in new dimensions, in space, cyberspace, and perhaps the world of microbes ... advanced forms of biological warfare that can 'target' specific genotypes may transform biological warfare from the realm of terror to a politically useful tool';

It pinpoints North Korea, Libya, Syria and Iran as dangerous regimes and says their existence justifies the creation of a 'world-wide command-and-control system'.

Tam Dalyell, the Labour MP, father of the House of Commons and one of the leading rebel voices against war with Iraq, said: 'This is garbage from right-wing think-tanks stuffed with chicken-hawks -- men who have never seen the horror of war but are in love with the idea of war. Men like Cheney, who were draft-dodgers in the Vietnam war.

'This is a blueprint for US world domination -- a new world order of their making. These are the thought processes of fantasist Americans who want to control the world. I am appalled that a British Labour Prime Minister should have got into bed with a crew which has this moral standing.'

We have no business trying to use our tax dollars and military strength to dominate the rest of the world from space and I think that's what this announcement is really all about.

2. As our President of the United States, George Bush's job is to serve the people who elected him. You know - the ones here on earth who live in the United States. ALL of them- not just the rich and wealthy. His job is not to give tax cuts that mainly benefit the rich and award reconstruction contracts that mainly reward his largest corporate campaign donors. His job is not to spend billions of our dollars liberating people who live in other countries. His job is not to pass laws that encourage employers to hire foreign workers while millions of our own citizens are out of work. And his job is cerainly not to spend even more money for this outrageous (IMO) space "adventure."

In terms of our ambitions as a nation and our national debt, I feel President Bush is biting off more than the American People can chew.

JMHO.

LoneStarMike

 
GDB
Posts: 14390
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

RE: Bush To Announce Missions To Mars, Moon

Sat Jan 10, 2004 6:02 pm

LSM, while I agree with you about the PNAC, consider two things;
The much more difficult and bloody post Saddam situation in Iraq has really undermined them, guess who would have told GWB that it would be a walkover with US troops greeted like the Allies in WW2 Occupied Europe, the US electorate will not tolerate another major military adventure soon, unless GWB can absolutely prove a clear and present danger, harder to do after Iraq's missing WMD.

In terms of space, the predecessors of PNAC would have hated Apollo, no real military spinoffs, in fact Apollo probably lead to cancellation of more military oriented space projects like X-20 and Manned Orbiting Laboratory.
 
lehpron
Posts: 6846
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2001 3:42 am

RE: Bush To Announce Missions To Mars, Moon

Sat Jan 10, 2004 6:54 pm

"I wonder if Haliburton is going to become a space contractor..."

Actually it would make perfect sense to me for (an) energy contractor(s) to fund the project -- what is on the moon's northern pole? ICE; and with no atmosphere, solar-electric hydrolysis would me much more effeicient on the moon than on Earth.

The result is enough hydrogen and oxygen to fuel a thousand launches to Mars. Those companies could make a serious fortune selling that fuel to other countries that want to explore space - like a gas station.  Smile

It seems too stupid to pass that up; I'd back that idea, if that is what the admin was thinking.
 
Boeing Nut
Posts: 5078
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2001 2:42 am

RE: Bush To Announce Missions To Mars, Moon

Sun Jan 11, 2004 12:46 am

AvObserver,

You seem to be one of the short-sighted folks I talked about that can't see the big picture about where the conquest of space can lead us, no offense intended.

None taken sir. 100 years ago, the airplane was a pipedream for a lot of people as well. I really do understand your point. It's just very missquided and the time and place for such an endevour is not now. There are too many other important things that are more deserving of such time and funds. As in saving our planet so that moving to another planet doesn't have to be an option.

Regards.

Another thing is that as far as I know NASA destroyed all the Saturn 5 blueprints and spec data, as well as the launching equipment, don´t ask me why, but making it impossible to rebuild a Saturn 5.


Nonsense. The blueprints and specs are still in NASA's posession.


What sense would it make to destroy the blueprints when NASA has a 3/4 size mockup of the Saturn V at Kennedy Space Center, which people see every single day?

Makes not a shred of sense. I'd like to know where you heard this at.


I actually read this on Yahoo's website a couple days ago. I'll see if I can trace it.

 
Boeing Nut
Posts: 5078
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2001 2:42 am

RE: Bush To Announce Missions To Mars, Moon

Sun Jan 11, 2004 12:55 am

Eureka! I found it!  Laugh out loud Third paragragh. Don't know how acurate it is. And Your right, they still have a full scale mock up, so it shouldn't be to hard.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040109/ap_on_sc/moon_mars_what_s_needed_1

Apollo was drilled into space with the giant Saturn V rocket, the most powerful launcher ever built by the United States. After the Apollo program ended, the equipment, tools and plans for building the rocket were lost. A new lunar and Mars effort could require even larger lift rockets, depending on the mission scheme selected.

 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13899
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Bush To Announce Missions To Mars, Moon

Sun Jan 11, 2004 1:14 am

As far as I´ve heard Nasa had two or three Saturn 5s mothballed after theApollo program ended, I think the one on display in Cape Caneveral is one of them. On the other hand they scrapped the launch equipment in the mid eighties to make space for the Space Shuttle gear. I wonder what happened to the last S-5s.
Also they had a problem with their early electronicaly preserved data, mostly on magnetic tapes, because the old computers don´t work or exist anymore, and even more they are running out of peoplewho can operate them and who understand these obsolete data formats.

Jan
 
Guest

RE: Bush To Announce Missions To Mars, Moon

Sun Jan 11, 2004 1:32 am

Personally, I've felt a little embarrassed by the fact that we haven't been back to the moon in over 30 years. Just how would we explain this to Captain Kirk? I agree with the comments that N844AA posted early in this thread - that it might make financial sense because of the "spinoffs". While I'm not a big fan of Tang (when it comes to my OJ it's "Not From Concentrate") I do enjoy using all of the various micro-computers, etc. that I have lying around here and at work and my wife enjoys her Teflon coated pans. It would be nice to be able to (20 years from now) go to Home Depot to buy a $500 residential cold fusion reactor, it would tend to cut down on our dependence on foreign oil. The numbers that I have heard is the same one mentioned earlier - $7 to $1. How accurate is that? I have no idea, but even if it is just $1.01 to $1 it would be financially viable over the long term. (Yes, I do believe in trickle down economics as well.)

I've got to believe that the President and his advisors have thought this out carefully because it will indeed give his opponents opportunity to criticize and that's not something that is very desirable during an election year. Once again, our President is showing why he is so popular - he is leading us, not merely sticking up is finger to see which way the "wind" is blowing. Aren't you glad? I am.
 
MidnightMike
Posts: 2810
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2003 10:07 am

RE: Bush To Announce Missions To Mars, Moon

Sun Jan 11, 2004 1:35 am


Wow! President Bush just hit a homerun with this one, it is about time, think of all the possibilities. Using the Moon as a base of operations is something that NASA has been screeming at for years, no gravity, lowers your cost for launching rockets. We can support the Space station so much more easier from the moon, in the long run lowering cost.

Kind of nice to hear a vision for the future, gives us something to look forward to.

ET, here we come!
 
Espion007
Posts: 1652
Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 9:29 am

RE: Bush To Announce Missions To Mars, Moon

Sun Jan 11, 2004 1:23 pm

Ill keep it short n sweet.

I think that spirit mars rover went right to bush's head  Insane

N maybe some mary jane with that...

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