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sebolino
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Clean Vehicle: It Works!

Sun Jan 11, 2004 12:01 am

Toyota and Honda have presented in Frankfurt their last hybrid cars, and man that's nice.

The new toyota Prius 2 has a consumption of 4,7 liters/100 km (50 mpg (US gallon)), and reject nearly only CO2.

From 0 to 1200 tr/min, the electrical engine is used and is then relayed by the explosion engine. It reaches 170 km/h (105 Mph) which is more than enough.

That plus electrical cars in the cities, and the future might be nicer than I thought.

http://www.clean-auto.com/article.php3?id_article=1565


[Edited 2004-01-10 16:09:01]
 
racko
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RE: Clean Vehicle: It Works!

Sun Jan 11, 2004 12:45 am

If a Hybrid, then this:




250HP Diesel + 68HP electric engine = 318HP & 860NM of toque
 
cancidas
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RE: Clean Vehicle: It Works!

Sun Jan 11, 2004 12:53 am

wow, that mercedes hybrid is on sweet looking car. when does it come out?
"...cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home."
 
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JeffM
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RE: Clean Vehicle: It Works!

Sun Jan 11, 2004 12:53 am

Clean to drive, yes, but how are the batteries disposed of?
 
jwenting
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RE: Clean Vehicle: It Works!

Sun Jan 11, 2004 1:35 am

Not only that, how's the electricity generated to charge the batteries?

Germany has over 50% coal fired plants, and that number will increase in the near future as the "green" (read socialist conservative) government has comitted the country to abandon nuclear power.

Solar and wind are no options (despite all the environmentalist claims to the contrary) as has been decidely shown last summer.
Solar can supply only a very small amount of energy and the production and disposal of the solar cells causes extreme polution and energy expedenture.
Wind power (and in Europe solar too) is simply too unreliable. Last summer when power was needed most the wind plants all sat idle because at the same time as a peak in energy consumption due to the extreme heat there was no wind to drive the windfarms.
Wind also has a limited use in that the energy generation per surface area is very small and therefore the percentage of a country's energy needs that can be generated through wind is very small (10-30% MAX depending on the geography and population density of the country).

I wish I were flying
 
BlatantEcho
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RE: Clean Vehicle: It Works!

Sun Jan 11, 2004 2:20 am

Jwenting-

Uhm, I really don't know how to approach what you said. If you're being serious, then this world is going to have a real hard time changing for more evironmentally sustainable methods.

Hybrid cars have an internal combustion engine in them that charges the batteries as it drives the car in certain conditions, you don't plug them in......

I really hope you just didn't read the article or something, hybrid cars are an important step to increases efficency and decrease environmental impact. Please know what's happening in your world.

George
 
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sebolino
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RE: Clean Vehicle: It Works!

Sun Jan 11, 2004 2:34 am

Not only that, how's the electricity generated to charge the batteries?

HE HE.

THe batteries are charged by the gasoline engine and by the movement of the car when it goes down a slope.
The result of all that is a consumption 30% inferior of what it would be with just the gasoline engine.
So your argument is irrelevant.
 
mopac
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RE: Clean Vehicle: It Works!

Sun Jan 11, 2004 2:46 am

The batteries are also charged during breaking.


Now if only Toyota would come out with a Prius capable of towing a horse trailer off road then we'll be all set (jk).

Edit to correct grammar mistake.

[Edited 2004-01-10 18:47:18]
 
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JeffM
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RE: Clean Vehicle: It Works!

Sun Jan 11, 2004 4:17 am

So....you burn gasoline to charge the batteries...
or..

You plug them in and burn fossil fuel to make electricity to charge them.

They need a lot of work.
 
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sebolino
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RE: Clean Vehicle: It Works!

Sun Jan 11, 2004 4:25 am

So....you burn gasoline to charge the batteries...
or..


You didn't read.

You use the movement of the car to charge the batteries which results in an economy of 30% gas.
 
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JeffM
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RE: Clean Vehicle: It Works!

Sun Jan 11, 2004 4:47 am

I read. You move the car to charge the batteries.......

using the damn gasoline engine....!

Can't YOU understand......?

(spread out the words so you would understand...)
 
flyf15
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RE: Clean Vehicle: It Works!

Sun Jan 11, 2004 5:12 am

Energy loss during braking is an enormus part of why cars don't have that great of gas mileage. If you were able to capture that energy and re-use it, gas milage would increase almost 50% in some cars.

Other than that, with the whole "gas engine still being used" thing. The gas engine is run constantly at its most efficient RPM setting, and therefore cranking out the most energy per amount of gas (and therefore, amount of exhaust). If this is more than is needed, some of the energy will go into the batteries. If this is less than is needed, the electric motors will also help propel the car.
 
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sebolino
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RE: Clean Vehicle: It Works!

Sun Jan 11, 2004 5:21 am

I read. You move the car to charge the batteries....... using the damn gasoline engine....!
Can't YOU understand......?


????????????????

This car, thanx to the electric engine, uses 30% less gasoline than the full gasoline version.

Do you get it now ?? I don't know in which language I should say it.
 
sleekjet
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RE: Clean Vehicle: It Works!

Sun Jan 11, 2004 6:10 am

I bought a Honda Hybrid a year and a half ago. It's an okay car...hasn't given me any problems and does get mid-40's in mileage. But there is a definite lack of power. Passing another car on the highway requires time and guts.
II Cor. 4:17-18
 
777236ER
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RE: Clean Vehicle: It Works!

Sun Jan 11, 2004 6:54 am

I read. You move the car to charge the batteries.......

using the damn gasoline engine....!

And the end result is you use 30% less fuel which does (doesn't, if you're a member of the Bush adminstration) pollute the Earth.

Can't YOU understand.......................?
Your bone's got a little machine
 
BlatantEcho
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RE: Clean Vehicle: It Works!

Sun Jan 11, 2004 7:28 am

There is a lot of incorrect information in this thread-

"The gas engine is run constantly at its most efficient RPM setting, and therefore cranking out the most energy per amount of gas ...."

This is utter rubbish. The gas engine turns on and off as necessary. The Electric motor is the primary drive unit. Around town, in the Synergy Drive system of the new Prius, you can not have the gas engine turn on at all.

Regenerative Braking means taking the energy used to stop a car, and instead of turning into friction/heat via brake pads, you turn it into energy that re-charges the main batteries.

----------
The main point you all miss. ALL cars have combustion engines now. There is no infrastructure for hydrogen, fuel cells yet. So, you throw in an electric motor that compliments the gas engine, you can reduce the use and size of the gas engine, and when it is needed, let it charge the electric system.

It's a closed cycle. Smaller gas engines can be more efficient, and the electric motor puts out 100% torque at, get this, 0 RPM, yeah, instant GO.

The truck statement is not applicable here, can a motorcycle tow a trailer either, wtf is your point? We shouldn't try to save fuel and lower pollution, or that your big truck makes up for your non existent knowledge of regarding energy efficency and sustainable means.

BTW: 2004 Motor Trend Car of the Year - Toyota Prius (a hybrid)

George
 
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sebolino
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RE: Clean Vehicle: It Works!

Sun Jan 11, 2004 9:52 am

And the end result is you use 30% less fuel which does (doesn't, if you're a member of the Bush adminstration) pollute the Earth.

OK, now I understand what you mean: you think it's better to do nothing and to avoid polluting 30% less because it's only 30%.  Big grin

(By the way it's not totally true, as except CO2, the pollution is nearly decreased to 0 thanx to the great increase in efficency).
 
bobrayner
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RE: Clean Vehicle: It Works!

Sun Jan 11, 2004 10:58 am

Clean to drive, yes, but how are the batteries disposed of?

They're no more environmentally damaging than other parts of the car... NiCd went out of fashion years ago.

Germany has over 50% coal fired plants, and that number will increase in the near future as the "green" (read socialist conservative) government has comitted the country to abandon nuclear power.

Yes; but building a small number of industrial-scale fossil-fuel-burners, on fixed sites, allows for better efficiency and better pollution mitigation than millions of very small fossil-fuel-burners that have to be dragged around with the consumer.  Wink/being sarcastic
Cunning linguist
 
KGAI
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RE: Clean Vehicle: It Works!

Sun Jan 11, 2004 12:22 pm

The idea behind hybrids is that in your typical driving scheme you don't need the vast majority of your engine power. So, so put in a small tiny engine sized for cruising, and supplement that with an electric motor for acceleration.

Not much drawback except when you're going uphill where you actually *do* need a lot of engine power all the time.
 
T prop
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RE: Clean Vehicle: It Works!

Sun Jan 11, 2004 1:00 pm

Look at the second one on the list.  Sad

http://www.lemonlaw.com/lemonlist.html

T prop.
 
BlatantEcho
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RE: Clean Vehicle: It Works!

Sun Jan 11, 2004 4:26 pm

Got to take a look at the Prius today, sat in it and what not.

Very spacious and well laid out.

Civic Hybrid not as nice, but still not bad at all.

---------
Hybrids will have their trouble, so will any other new generation of anything (see A340-600 threads.....) This technology can be ramed up to give v8 power from a v6, and hopefully become more and more efficent.

it's a stepping stone to fuel cells or hydrogen, and a very good stepping stone at that.

George
 
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sebolino
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RE: Clean Vehicle: It Works!

Sun Jan 11, 2004 7:01 pm

Look at the second one on the list.

This is the Prius 1.

We have to wait for the results of the Prius 2.

On the site it's written: Each year, thousands of Americans call their government to register complaints about their vehicles.

I find it rather funny, what the hell the government as to do with it ?
 
lehpron
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RE: Clean Vehicle: It Works!

Sun Jan 11, 2004 8:23 pm

JeffM's problem is that he is trying to highlight what he sees as a failure of the leftist conspiracy to kill oil. Because this car still uses gasoline, he feels it goes against his view of what he thinks the point of an environmentally friendly vehicle: that they are not supposed to use oil.

His obcession creates this unacceptability for [technological] cooperation. JeffM, the point of this technology is efficiency of resources, not to get rid of it!

This is analogous to being lazy as opposed to spending your time wisely.

Give your leftist-theories a rest man, like what do you honestly think about this kind of car, for example? Have you thought of it rather than it not making sense to you because of your presumptions?



In terms of mass-produced hybrids, Europe may be a better test ground for this considering America's love of gas-powered cars. I think they should intergrate it more, like having both engines share the same drive shaft, or integrate a flywheel. Heck, why not integrate a turbine engine into the car, they'll use the fuel better.  Smile

The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
 
bobrayner
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RE: Clean Vehicle: It Works!

Mon Jan 12, 2004 6:53 am

Heck, why not integrate a turbine engine into the car, they'll use the fuel better.

Will it? Speaking very generally, higher compression ratios bring higher thermodynamic efficiency. How can you get higher compression from a turbine engine than from a reciprocating engine?
Cunning linguist
 
T prop
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RE: Clean Vehicle: It Works!

Mon Jan 12, 2004 1:52 pm

Heck, why not integrate a turbine engine into the car, they'll use the fuel better.

Chrysler did in fact build a hand full in the 60's.

http://www.allpar.com/mopar/turbine.html

T prop.
 
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JeffM
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RE: Clean Vehicle: It Works!

Tue Jan 13, 2004 3:42 am

Lephron,
What you spew is utter rubbish. My dislike for the current vehicles has nothing to do with my view on the future use of the technology if it is able to overcome a few substantial obstacles. As it stands now, it's only 30% better in fuel economy, and a ton less usefull if you need to carry anything heavier then a week's worth of groceries, let alone even think of towing something. How would anyone tow their boat, jetski, motorcycle, etc? With their V8 Chevy, Ford, or Dodge, that's how.

Good luck with your turbine powered "Jetsons" car... I'm sure it will go over big. So did Zepplins...
 
Banco
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RE: Clean Vehicle: It Works!

Tue Jan 13, 2004 4:01 am

A fair criticism of them JeffM, but don't forget that the technology is still relatively new. It may be possible to get over them in the coming years. Now speaking personally, I wouldn't want one because in a very selfish manner I like my cars to have good performance (not just in a straight line either), but a great many people have no interest in this and it suits them perfectly.

On that basis, the advent of these cars should create a reduction in pollution, even though they are not suitable for everybody. And isn't that to the benefit of us all?
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
777236ER
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RE: Clean Vehicle: It Works!

Tue Jan 13, 2004 4:18 am

How would anyone tow their boat, jetski, motorcycle, etc? With their V8 Chevy, Ford, or Dodge, that's how.

Most of the world seems to get on just fine without V8 Chevys, Fords or Dodges - surely this technology is suitable for them?
Your bone's got a little machine
 
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sebolino
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RE: Clean Vehicle: It Works!

Tue Jan 13, 2004 4:59 am

How would anyone tow their boat, jetski, motorcycle, etc? With their V8 Chevy, Ford, or Dodge, that's how.


Oh yeah, you can't live without a V8. I wonder how Europeans do. I don't see many Chevy in France, but for a strange reason I see many bikes, horses, caravans behind cars.
 
Qb001
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RE: Clean Vehicle: It Works!

Tue Jan 13, 2004 5:11 am



Signed
The GWB Administration and all their supporters.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
 
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JeffM
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RE: Clean Vehicle: It Works!

Tue Jan 13, 2004 5:42 am

"I don't see many Chevy in France, but for a strange reason I see many bikes, horses, caravans behind cars.

Are the cars over in France that slow that even bikes and horses follow behind them? Maybe Chevy's would be a little too much for them?
 
777236ER
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RE: Clean Vehicle: It Works!

Tue Jan 13, 2004 5:47 am

JeffM, do you agree that people who don't need a "V8 Chevy, Ford or Dodge" could use this technology to the advantage of the whole world?
Your bone's got a little machine
 
Twistedwhisper
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RE: Clean Vehicle: It Works!

Tue Jan 13, 2004 6:14 am

So....you burn gasoline to charge the batteries...
or..

You plug them in and burn fossil fuel to make electricity to charge them.


The general idea is that you use the batteries while you are driving in urban traffic, and the fuel when driving through the Arizona desert.

You might be aware that the fuel consumtion goes up when you have to accelerate the car, wich is more lightly to happen when driving in a city or a small town (due to traffic lights and stuff)

By the way, what are you guys paying for your gas nowdays? Probably less then a buck per gallon? Europeans pay somewhere around 3$ per gallon.
You seriously mean that this is the car you need to do your weekly shopping at walmart?

Or are you just taking a mickey? If you are serious I'd like to say that your claim is the pure definition of "utter rubbish"
Read between the lines.
 
zak
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RE: Clean Vehicle: It Works!

Tue Jan 13, 2004 6:38 am

" Europeans pay somewhere around 3$ per gallon. "
it is actually about 5.30$ per gallon in most european countries
10=2
 
KGAI
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RE: Clean Vehicle: It Works!

Tue Jan 13, 2004 7:29 am

Average gas in the US seems to be around $1.50 for regular (.87 octane). Diesel is around that price too.
Calfornia has gas past the $2.00 mark


Let me just preempt anybody by saying the gas price is low in the US NOT because the US steals it. It's because of low taxes.
 
captaingomes
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RE: Clean Vehicle: It Works!

Tue Jan 13, 2004 7:56 am

How would anyone tow their boat, jetski, motorcycle, etc? With their V8 Chevy, Ford, or Dodge, that's how

Bigger boats not withstanding, you need a V8 Chevy, Ford or Dodge to tow a motorcycle or jetski????? Ohhhhhhhhhh brother.

Are the cars over in France that slow that even bikes and horses follow behind them? Maybe Chevy's would be a little too much for them?

Yes, considering the average interstate speed on the highways in the US is around 75 mph tops, and the average in France is closer to 90 mph (with a very good deal of traffic going faster than that), European cars are very slow, eh? Goes to show, you don't need a 6.0 V8 to drive fast or have fun. It's a common misconception among many people. But I'm not knocking big V8's. I'm just knocking the idea that some people think they absolutely need big V8's for daily driving, or towing 1000 lbs worth of stuff.
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
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JeffM
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RE: Clean Vehicle: It Works!

Tue Jan 13, 2004 8:31 am

If you want one of those little cars.... here is a place in line right in front of me...

Have at it. And no, I don't think that the few people that buy them are making even the slightest dent in the amount of pollution around the world. Not yet, maybe 20 years of so, when they outnumber the millions of conventional fueled vehicles..

$5 bucks a gallon? Somebody is getting ripped off big time....
 
777236ER
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RE: Clean Vehicle: It Works!

Tue Jan 13, 2004 8:35 am

And no, I don't think that the few people that buy them are making even the slightest dent in the amount of pollution around the world. Not yet, maybe 20 years of so, when they outnumber the millions of conventional fueled vehicles..

Well then surely few people need to buy them so that in 20 years they're common, no?
Your bone's got a little machine
 
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JeffM
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RE: Clean Vehicle: It Works!

Tue Jan 13, 2004 9:31 am

Like I said, anyone that wants to jump in line...feel free to jump ahead of me.

I guess growing up in the muscle car era of the 60's and 70's has jaded me.... Too bad there are kids that will never feel the power of Big block V-8... They will be stuck with the little "sewing machine" 4's and hybrids...
 
BlatantEcho
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RE: Clean Vehicle: It Works!

Tue Jan 13, 2004 10:13 am

Toyota is working on a V6 hybrid that will deliver V8 power.

Again, FULL torque comes at 0 rpms, so that will be a helluva lot better than a big block developing 85% at 2000rpms or so.

As for Americans love of gas engines, hybrids have a gas engine too, so I don't know what the problem is there. You couldn't tell the difference in driving except the hybrid would scoot off the line faster. Unless you need Flowmasters on your 454, you wouldn't know the difference.

Finally, Hybrids get better mileage in the city. The Prius gets 60mpg city, and iirc 52 highway.

Again, 2004 Toyota Prius, Motor Trend's CAR OF THE YEAR.

George
 
lehpron
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RE: Clean Vehicle: It Works!

Tue Jan 13, 2004 10:34 am

Yes, fair critism indeed JeffM, had you made your point earlier, you would have appeared much smarter.

"What you spew is utter rubbish. My dislike for the current vehicles has nothing to do with my view on the future use of the technology if it is able to overcome a few substantial obstacles."

Note the bold, you do not believe it is possible. My proof is your bias in reply #38, "I guess growing up in the muscle car era of the 60's and 70's has jaded me" How you grew up affects how you think and what you believe, but that doesn't mean the way you grew up is how everybody is, as in this, "I don't think that the few people that buy them are making even the slightest dent in the amount of pollution around the world.".

I do not think that was the point, most people are selfish and do not care for the world, if they can save money to help their way of life, so be it.

"Good luck with your turbine powered "Jetsons" car... I'm sure it will go over big. So did Zepplins..."

What the hell? Whatever you got out of that, bear in mind, it's all you. Do you believe that technology changes at all? If you did, you would not have made this statement: "How would anyone tow their boat, jetski, motorcycle, etc?"

Do electrics lack power? Would it surprise you to know that Diesel locomotives are actually fuel-burned powerplants that use electric motors to run? 6500 HP electric motors?

You assume way too much, like you expect the impacts to be realy big based on hype or something as opposed to sincerely looking into it yourself without pre-made decisions. All things get better. I'm sure, sadly, there were people like you that felt personal computers were a waste, or that it would be silly to carry around a laptop or a telephone.

Think about it before you claim I speak of rubbish.  Yeah sure
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
 
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JeffM
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RE: Clean Vehicle: It Works!

Tue Jan 13, 2004 10:42 am

I understand all about diesel trains. I too understand how people thought zepplins would revolutionize air travel. Funny, don't see many around these days do you..?

I too understand how growing up effects what people believe. I never said anything about the technology failing. Just that it is not for me. You are making the rest up, and trying to 'appear' as the know it all. Sorry, not buyint that. Like I said, if you want one...go for it.

And to your first statement about appearing "smarter". Appearance appears to be what concerns you most, but not me. I am smarter. You just have not realized it.

George,
Save all that car of the year crap... it is meaningless...
 
777236ER
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RE: Clean Vehicle: It Works!

Tue Jan 13, 2004 10:47 am

JeffM, simple yes or no answer, is this technology beneficial to mankind?
Your bone's got a little machine
 
lehpron
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RE: Clean Vehicle: It Works!

Tue Jan 13, 2004 12:06 pm

I'm sure he will say it is beneficial, just not for him.  Smile

In any event, it is perfectly fine if it is not for you, but that does not mean it will never have a future or is short lived just because it doesn't make sense to you. Like your towing capacity comment...I'm sure you know there are different markets for things.

On the other hand, everybody is like that, even me. Like I do not see the point for reality shows, that does not mean that they suck or will end soon, I would just like them to. I have a roommate who did not see the point of the A380 cuz it won't be able to fit in small airports, that is not the point of the plane, but then he was a regional jet junkie.

See what I mean? The only bad thing really was that my roommate never acknowledged that he was making ignorant conclusions. He believes he's right and I won't argue the airport size issue, but he still needs to understand the point of the plane.

Likewise, it may be useful to see what and where hybird cars are for rather than make decisions based on what you know about they way cars have been.

That was my point.
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
 
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JeffM
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RE: Clean Vehicle: It Works!

Tue Jan 13, 2004 1:47 pm

You can twist things what ever way you want, but I did not say the technology "sucked" or "will end soon". Pay more attention and you will see that I said it needed more work, and does not suit me, and many others who may have a need for more power. Currently these vehicles make NO benneficial impact on the environment. They may years down the road, but like I said before, they still have a lot of room for improvement.

Simple.

Thanks for the suggestion on how to make my decisions, but I'll stick with what works. I'll make my own.

Jeff
 
BlatantEcho
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RE: Clean Vehicle: It Works!

Tue Jan 13, 2004 1:51 pm

"Save all that car of the year crap... it is meaningless..."

I brought in the opinion of a 3rd party, respected auto magazine, and it's meaningless, but you're personal opinion should we head with reverence and awe..........

 Insane

George
 
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JeffM
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RE: Clean Vehicle: It Works!

Tue Jan 13, 2004 2:00 pm

Never said my opinion was any more important, never tried to convince you either. If you respect the magazine...GREAT! Good for you. Meaningless to me. Relax... go charge your batteries...
 
BlatantEcho
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RE: Clean Vehicle: It Works!

Tue Jan 13, 2004 2:58 pm

I think you need to be made editor of JeffM, The Magazine. Then you could put your worthless input in print and consider it more authoritarian.

Personal opinon in this thread is reserved for the marketing of new tech cars, nothing more, it doesn't effect the efficency of hybrids compared to traditional motors, and that 3rd parties have lauded praise on a car you don't like doesn't change the facts that allude you.

Jeff, all you have done is be a stalwart of outdated technology.

George
 
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JeffM
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RE: Clean Vehicle: It Works!

Tue Jan 13, 2004 3:12 pm

You are about as dense as they come George, like talking to a wall. I think where the technology is going (not where it is now) may be a great thing. I think I was clear that if you praise the almighty word of Motor Trend,.. outstanding... ! Have a ball! Tell all your friends! Whoop dee doo...! What car did "Car and Driver" pick? What about "Popular Mechanics"..? Hmmm?

Facts that allude me? O.k. sure.....  Big grin Thanks for your "worthless input".

Yea, it's a Hemi...

 
BlatantEcho
Posts: 2132
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RE: Clean Vehicle: It Works!

Tue Jan 13, 2004 3:30 pm

I stopped subscribing to PM years ago, but it figures their car headline on the pmzone is "NEW INNOVATIVE HYBRIDS"

Car & Driver named the 2004 Prius to their 10 Best list.

Eat it  Smile
George

[grammar error]

[Edited 2004-01-13 07:31:24]

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Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos