JeffM, you sound like a very angry man. Its as if the hybrid technology actually pisses you off, I sure get that impression.

Answer a simple question for me.

Currently these vehicles make NO benneficial impact on the environment.

Basically, back that statement up.

O.K. George....last time.

New technology - Yes
Innovative - Yes
Perfect - No

Can't make it any simpler for you.

A top ten car? Not for me.

"A top ten car? Not for me."

But for all the people who get paid to analyze, test and rank cars, it's at least a top ten, often their #1. Out of all the regular cars in America, it beat them all, or at least is in the absolute highest ranks of the best.

You're only traction here is that this car may "not be for you" but you didn't give reasons. Have you been in one? Drag coefficent to low for you? You test drive one yet?

Everyone whose opinion carries any weight has said , NO Jeff, you are wrong, this is a car for lazy americans everywhere. It does everything your fully gasoline driven car does, and does it more efficently.

Don't like that it's a Toyota? Ford's been promising an Escape hybrid for years now, but nothing.

No V8 diesel power to tow your mobile home? A technologies future applications shouldn't deride it's current executions. You hate the 7E7 because it's only going to be more efficent, not supersonic too?

The hybrid drivetrain is here to stay, until even more efficent means replace it. You wouldn't know the difference while driving it, and it's not the only hybrid out there in case its looks bother you. But it sucks ass in sum because it's not exactly tailored to JeffM's current wasteful american lifestyle.......

George

George,
You have convinced me that it is the perfect car for someone like you.

Technology applied to developmental cars like the Prius will eventually be applied to mainstream vehicles, including large SUVs in the U.S. It will improve to the point that there will be no significant penalties in acceleration or towing capacity. Imagine a massive Dodge Durango getting upwards of 30 mpg, or even a Hummer H2 getting low to mid 20s. It will soon be possible, if the U.S. makers are canny enough to jump on the hybrid bandwagon. Though only a stopgap solution compared to the ultimate gas saving technology, hydrogen fuel cells, hybrids are already becoming a force in the automarket. The Prius is hot with a waiting list of buyers. I'd definitely consider one though I'd have to inquire about the replacement costs of the exotic componentry, I'm worried all that high-tech gear will be very expensive once out of warranty. Nevertheless, the fuel-saving potential is significant and will get more so with continued development. JeffM, I too grew up in the age of musclecars and am somewhat nostalgic for this era, as well. But this is a different world than then and it's only right we embrace such fuel-saving technologies, especially if there's little or no penalty in performance. Prius 2 shows considerable improvement over the 1st gen model; hybrid performance can be further dialed up as technology improves. Until fuel cells take over, we should try to lean toward vehicles that can give us better economy and future hybrids, like the Lexus RX-330 derivative coming soon, will give us this with hardly any sacrifice of the size and power we're accustomed to. Try to have an open mind about this.

Look into your crystal ball and tell me who wins the Stanley Cup this year...I need to place a bet..

I prefer to pay at the pump. Lean which ever way you care. So is it the fuel savings or supposed lowering of pollution levels that appeals to you?

Thanks.

Jeff

I'd seriously consider a Prius II as my next car if it weren't so tiny. Being 6' 2", I was uncomfortable in a Corolla during a test drive and this thing looks even smaller. I currently drive a Camry and would love to get one with a hybrid engine.

It's always good to see progress on the MPG front, but as AvObserver mentioned, I think the auto companies are missing the real gold mine, at least so far. A lot of Americans simply like big cars; the land-yachts of the 1960s and 1970s have given way to SUVs in the 1990s after a short 10-year concession to fuel economy. As much as environmentalists (and some Europeans!) like to imagine otherwise, this seems like an American cultural quirk that will be hard to kill unless gas hits $4 per gallon again, which would have devastating economic side effects.

On that note, I think a hybrid-powered SUV that got something like 35 MPG would sell like extremely well, and would also make the biggest difference in overall fuel economy and emissions. Currently, most SUVs are getting less than 20 MPG. People are willing to pay more for the extra size, but no one likes spending $40 to fill up. An extra thousand or two spent on a hybrid drive would pay for itself very quickly. I know the philosophy is to start hybridizing small cars and develop the technology upward, but subcompacts aren't the most appealing test market for drivers used to bigger cars. A hybrid RX330 is on the right track, but Lexus is out of most peoples' price range.

In the long term, hydrogen is the way to go. Although I am for space exploration, imagine the benefits to everyone in the US if Bush put the Mars mission funds into 1) developing a hydrogen production and distribution infrastructure, 2) accelerating development of an efficient, lightweight, and reliable hydrogen fuel cell drive train, and 3) putting together a Manhattan-type fusion power project -- after all, we need electricity to extract hydrogen from seawater, and burning oil to generate eletricity would not solve the problem. Fusion is another Holy Grail that does not seem to be getting any closer: is it a hopeless money pit or just underfunded?

I'm generally a free-marketeer, but in these cases, the benefits from a fossil-fuel free society would almost certainly outweigh the costs of public funding. While it would be great to see people on Mars, I wonder if those resources couldn't be put to much better use on Earth.

--B2707SST

[Edited 2004-01-14 03:32:09]

The Prius went from economy to mid-sized in 2004, it's very well engineered and the interior very expansive for it's dimensions, you'd fit easily.


Jeff says "So is it the fuel savings or supposed lowering of pollution levels that appeals to you?"

no fucking shit jeff, you get both, in a toyota, for under 20 grand. 6ompg and PZEV. (that is partial ZERO EMISSION credit) In a car that drives like any other, is basically as quick as any other, and goes 600 miles on a tank of gas.

George

Damn George, did I shit in your Wheaties or something?

Go buy a bunch if your gonna have an orgasm over the damn things...

Just because I don't like 'em, doesn't mean you can't save the world if you think you can...

"Look into your crystal ball and tell me who wins the Stanley Cup this year...I need to place a bet..

I prefer to pay at the pump. Lean which ever way you care. So is it the fuel savings or supposed lowering of pollution levels that appeals to you?"

It's not fortune-telling but simple extrapolation of developments already underway that shows me where this is going. Which begs the question-why do you want to continue to pay MORE for gasoline when in a fairly short time they'll be a hybrid as big and capable as what you drive now but a lot less thirsty and polluting. And as BlatantEcho relates, both fuel savings and lower emissions appeal to me. Prius and the other few hybrids on the market now may not be your cup of tea but I'll bet the new Lexus RX330-derived hybrid will be a lot closer to your ideal and still larger ones will follow. You know, since we don't know exactly when the promised salvation of hydrogen fuel-cells will kick in, it wouldn't hurt to conserve more of what we know to be a funite resource. Who knows how long the world's oil will ultimately last? I think you see in this thread that the swaggering, 'What Me Worry" attitude of yours is a sore point, particularly with the Europeans who are in to conservation. Indeed, there's a lot of resentment worldwide to Americans' prodigious fuel consumption and the seemingly selfish posture of many of us to drive huge, fuel-swilling trucks and SUVs even when we don't need their capabilities. Such preferences are tantamount to screaming "I don't give a s--t!" in much of the world. Freedom of vehicle choice is fine, up to a point but the freedom to be relentlessly wasteful is giving the U.S. a black eye in so much of the world where drivers have to conserve because fuel is so expensive. Conspicuous consumption is one reason American travelers to foreign lands get hassled. Let's at least try to at least adopt a pretence that we somewhat care about the rest of the world thinks, even if we're not marching in total lockstep with them, okay?

F or you don't
u nderstand anything
c ause you
k eep whinning.

.

O nly when you
f inally listen to my statement will you
f orever understand.

 

Jeff

This is the same crass attitude that dominates the Car and Driver forum. It's one thing to drive a big vehicle when you need to carry a family, tow a boat or trailer. That I do understand, even though I've no need for such a big hauler myself. And sportscars like the Corvette and Mustang Cobra aren't bad compared to the biggest SUVs and sell in smaller numbers, anyway. There are all kinds of ways you could justify your choice of a big or powerful vehicle; what you choose isn't the central issue which is really that you don't give a crap. That is the saddest commentary that I can make of a fellow American and why I'm often compelled to apologize to foreigners in these forums. There are perfectly good reasons people buy big SUVs like the Ford Excursion and hot sportscars like the 'Vette and Viper but your reason is apparently that you feel like being the 'Ugly American'. If that's what fuels your life, you are one sorry-ass citizen!

So, you assume because I don't like the little electric car, I own a big gas guzzling SUV? The Car and Driver forum? You mean people there don't like the little car either?

your a simpleton, and that is obvious

Golly Jeffery, you sound so ticked right now over this "little electric car" (which it isn't), it is so funny.

Such words as perfect are subjective, if you are the kind of person that drive to work everyday and has to fill the tank often (bi-weekly) and spend a fortune doing it, this kind of car is a life saver as you wont fork a chunk of your account in the car or visit the station every once in a while. A majority of people want to live life without loosing 20 bucks a tank every time.

Then there are those that love their car, those who work on it a bunch, those who visit the Indy500 and watch Top fuel races -- an electric variant shunned like a scarlet letter or picked on like a communist child in 1950's USA, like when Physicists find out their co-worker is a fan of S.E.T.I., etc.

True most affordable electric hybrid propulsion systems are not competitive with gas-based engines, as most would use it for not market.

Speaking of market, IMO, it takes education to 'fuel' belief and interest, which keys investment for a product to eventually become successful. Most people who still drive gas-only cars do not know much about hybrids, those who are willing to research on their own benefit without really purchasing a car.

You're not alone JeffM, I think you are one of 100 million Americans who feel the way you do. However most of them are ignorant as they make opinions on misinformation; I doubt any of them has either looked into what a hybrid is, does, or can be. More than likely they do not have the time or the money or the interest or the belief.

The "if you build it they will come" moto only makes sense if everyone is remotely aware. Wouldn't it be funny if 10% of folks drove a hybrid within 20 years? Impacts, anyone?

***

And I was not making suggestions on your desicions; rather, don't make desicions unless you know the material, it's something I tell everyone; knowing yourself doesn't cut it, be aware of your surroundings.


Note to others: quit being a missionary trying to change Jeffery, I think he's had enough.   Unless you have not gotten your point accross, then by all means  

Hey, don't let me stop you...
Have at it..
I get a kick out of listening to such "serious responses"...

Drive to work? not me... My 'commute' is 9 stairs down to get coffee, and 9 back up to my office...

oh, and it is r e y, not e r y.

 

oh, and it is r e y, not e r y

You really aren't qualified for pedantry.

Currently these vehicles make NO benneficial (sic) impact on the environment.

In what way is 30% lower fuel consumption not beneficial?

your (sic) a simpleton, and that is obvious.

Never said my opinion was any more important, never tried to convince you either

But surely you're smarter than us, and we just haven't realised it? Surely, the only reason we disagree with you is because we haven't listened closely enough?

Does anybody actually want to talk about clean vehicles? That would be a good idea.

Surely Bob.

What ever you rant, err,... say...

Bobrayner- "Does anybody actually want to talk about clean vehicles? That would be a good idea."

I think we pretty much covered it. Same price, same driveability, same feel, 2-3x higher MPG, Partial Zero Emissons. And it's a toyota or honda.

RX400 (they are changing it from 330 for the hybrid) should be the thing that really pushes people into knowing what a hybrid is, and its benefits to not just the driver, but all of us.

George

Hey even the worst polluters on earth are working on the subject (  <---- did you see it ? )

http://www.ott.doe.gov/hev/

I didn't see France mentioned...where was that?

No, JeffM, I didn't assume you were an SUV driver. But I did assume from your cavalier dismissal of the hybrid and its' champions and even of the very idea that saving fuel might be a good thing that you were the same sort of overbearing oaf who populates the C&D forums. Most of them happen to be truck and SUV fans and frankly, I'm happier that you're a musclecar fan because they do better mileagewise and aren't built in nearly the same numbers, making them less of a threat. However, it isn't what you drive but your seeming disdain for the whole idea of trying to improve on automotive fuel economy which has me ticked off. You apparently fancy a return to "the good old days of the 60's" when every car topped the powercharts. It's not THAT world, anymore! Musclecars are still here but not dominant-get used to it! And keep enjoying yours, if that's what you've got. Put don't point a finger of scorn at those who might care to help save this planet's resources unless you like being painted as a redneck moron, which you apparently are and THAT, sir, is obvious!

ABout 5 times in this thread I mentioned that if anyone wants my place in line for one of those hybrids, they could have it. What do I need to do? Type it in RED? I prefer if you make fewer assumptions about me, as you have no facts to base them on. My dislike of one or two vehicles does not mean I condemn the technology before it fully evolves. And that was my point, but it was so much easier to get all high an mighty and call me names. Oh well, what ever floats your boat.

Nope, don't own a muscle car. Used to, no need for one now. I used to own a fullsize conversion van. Gas mileage sucked, but it could pull your house off it's foundation. I traded it for a nice little AWD 4 bangin' mini-suv. Goes twice as far for half the gas. But, I miss the power, and the room, but I don't have any toys to pull yet, so it just brings home the groceries for now. o.k.?

Thanks for pointing out this ain't the 60's anymore, guess I'll put my Monkey's LP away now...

I am sure the technology is only going to improve.

BTW: does anybody have any idea what happens to the battery efficiency on one of those hybrids when the ambient air temp gets down to about -15F or -26C?

I don't but I could wager a guess it is the same thing that happens to other battery types.

Which is why I am not hot n hybrids in my climate.

Also diesels get hard to start that cold, better with a gas motor up here.

Hybrids have their faults. They do not seem to get close to the advertised fuel mileage. In the cold L-188, they rely pretty much only on the gas engine, therefore negating the advantages of the hybrid system. Hybrids work best in moderate climates where additional accessories are not being used and taking away the power from the powertrain. And while hybrids are being sold at relatively moderate prices, they are being sold at huge losses for their respective companies. Don't kid yourselves, Honda and Toyota are essentially subsidizing every hybrid sold by them right now to the tune of thousands of dollars.

This technology needs to mature, as it has potential. For now, I personally wouldn't buy one, but I welcome their presence on the market.

Captaingomes- Your information is outdated/incorret or both.

With regards to not getting the mileage advertised, this isn't a Ford Cobra or Ford, I mean Mazda RX-8. You can't just slap horsepower numbers on there and expect people to buy it or not sue if it's untrue. Those MPG numbers are verifed and tested to be true. An SUV won't even get 8MPG city as advertised if you drive with the pedal to the floor, the numbers listed produce the MPG stated, that's how it is.

In reality, Toyota makes money on every Prius, CEO made that very public at Detroit.

George



[Edited 2004-01-16 18:16:19]

They do not seem to get close to the advertised fuel mileage.

In some other parts of the world, fuel consumption figures have to be varified; and exaggerated figures are false advertising.

Does this not apply in North America?

When you say North America,...do you mean the U.S.?

If so, the figures stated can vary, based on conditions.

Bobrayner- It would be hard to bring a lawsuit of that nature against a company, but not unprecedented.

Lots of people got pissed at Ford, and sued if I remember correctly, because their Cobra Mustangs weren't putting out the HP Ford claimed. They took it to a dyno, and there is your proof.

As I said though, driving conditions do affect mileage to an extent. Everything from engine condition, to tire pressure, to extra weight in car, types of gas, driver habits, etc. However, it is pretty well based that the day you take a new car off a lot, it will get the mileage specified.

George

So if they rely on their gas engines mostly in cold weather, what is the point of me, being in Alaska, where it was -30C at the house last night and the car would be parked outside cold soaking in it, of buying a hybrid.

Since the gas engine is the one mostly used, I don't gain there. That engine has to work harder since the batteries and the electric motor weigh something, and if they aren't used as often as in warmer climates then they are just dead weight. And having just a single fuel engine is for obvious reasons mechanically simpler.

A hybrid may make sense in California, but you have a ways to go before making me believe that they are going to be a workable option up here.

Shoot even Diesels make me nervous since they can be notoriously hard to start in the same weather, and that technology has been around since the 1880's.

L-188

I really can't find a logical implication in anything you said. It's too cold for the hybrid to work, but the battery that starts your car you still expect to work? Are you claiming all batteries loose their capacity to hold a charge when it gets cold?

Somehow you get your car started everyday, and everyday your battery still holds its charge.

The hybrid starts up it's gas engine, and then the battery can hold a charge. If it's so cold the hybrid battery dies, then what makes you think the battery in any other car is going to do any better?

I don't even know if the cold will zap such a big battery of it's charge as fast as it would an 18 volt car battery. The electrons in battery A at -30 don't act any different than the ones in battery B at -30.

I really don't understand how being cold affects one car but not the other, especially when they both have traditional gas engines. It's a hybrid, not diesel.

George

Still the point is, I think I will let the people down in California and Europe test out the technolgy before I endorse it.

Your last point is certainly more well made.

The reliability and integrity of the hybrid drivetrain systes, while there is no reason to doubt them, are still "untested"

I'm sure in demanding conditions as yours, a new car with new tech might not be the order of the day all the time.

However, I will maintain, at the electrical level, the hybrid shouldn't act any differently than any other gas driven car that requires a battery to start it.

George

Well I might disagee,

A starter battery and a drive battery while using the same technology are two different beasts. A car batter may power a go cart for a couple of hours but won't do that for a hybrid. I suspect that the hybrids aren't using lead-acid batteries, but that doesn't mean that I completely rule out the same afflictions that stick lead acids in cold weather from striking them.

I have had lead acid batteries destroyed by cold weather. One on an ATV that I didn't drive when I was in Germany actually froze hard enough that it cracked the battery case!

We have battery powered equipment at the airport, aircraft tugs and such. So I have a pretty good idea how an electricly powered vehicle will react in cold weather. Rule: Don't leave them outside.

Likewise I drive a gas powered vehicle to work, again a pretty good idea how that works. They are a lttle better, but still need to be plugged it and warm to work properly.

Hybrids just combine the two technologies.

Again my question is, since the gas engine is going to be doing most of the work in cold weather, judging from the comments above, wouldn't it make more sense for me to stick with my straight gas powered truck and not haul around all of that dead weight (the motor and the batteries for the hybrid?) Surely there is an efficiency gain there but not doing that.

Japanese car companys know the business and have the skills, probably within 10 years from now we can get cars which only need 20-40 % of todays average gas consumption with equal performance. European and especially Us carmakers will have to follow.
The fuel prices will rise though.... 

Koad-

You are quite correct. It's sad the Lexus has to school American manufacturers, but that is how it goes.

The new RX400h, exactly the same SUV as the RX330, has lower emissions, more power, and gets 30mpg.

I hope this is the car that puts hybrids on the map.

George

I hate these new hybrid cars, to me they just look so ugly. I have 2 trucks, one for home, one for work, both of which I'd rather drive compaired to a car that gets 40 miles to a gallon. Dispite the F-350 diesel gets something like 16 miles a gallon, and the Peterbilt 379X gets 5-8 mpg. I bought them both and love em'! Notice: These pics are just some I found off the net. Mine look much better.

Home:

Work:

Douglas DC-9- nice trucks.

I think everyone will agree, big trucks like those definetly have their place in this country, semis make this country run!

However, for an around the towner, vacation things like that, both of those, (the semi particularaly!) are obviously a bit overkill  

George

"The new RX400h, exactly the same SUV as the RX330, has lower emissions, more power, and gets 30mpg."

No question that while hybrids aren't for everyone, they're getting better. And Douglas DC9, we know you need your Peterbilt for work but just to clarify, you DO a lot of hauling and perhaps towing in your F-350, right, not just getting groceries, picking up the kids, running to the mall, etc? Although 16 mpg isn't bad for a heavy-duty pickup, Blatant Echo's comment about overkill has some credence if it's not actually used as a truck.

I rented a Ford Excursion today during my trip up to Mt. Rushmore. The computer told me I was getting 11mpg.... not good, I admit, considering it was empty and only hauling me...

.... But I will admit a V10 is good for your soul....

Gas prices in the Netherlands are now moving towards €1.20 per LITER.
For US people, that's $5.95 per gallon (give or take a few cents).

I'm all for cars that use less fuel, but to say hybrid cars are better for the environment overall is not correct.
Those batteries need power which is usually gotten from an electrical outlet (at least if you drive on electric a lot). Electricity in Europe is mainly from fossil fuels (and nuclear is decreasing).
Then there's the environmental impact of all those lead-acid or heavy metal batteries that need to be manufactured, transported and in the end disposed of to be taken into account as well.

Jwenting, I agree with you. When looking at the environmental impact of hybrids, too many people look at the issue far too simplistically. They see the 60 MPG rating by the EPA and proclaim it as the best thing since sliced bread. There are many other factors that contribute to the environmental friendliness of any vehicle. Car manufacturers can make conventional gasoline or diesel cars very very clean these days.

I applaud the research and technology employed by car manufacturers today in developing hybrids. They are a positive outcome overall. But they are not, in my opinion, the answer we really need, and are far from a revolutionary improvement over today's more conventional technology. It's a good thing they are offered on the market, but you wont see one on my driveway anytime soon.

I'm all for cars that use less fuel, but to say hybrid cars are better for the environment overall is not correct. Those batteries need power which is usually gotten from an electrical outlet (at least if you drive on electric a lot)

Most hybrid cars (at least the Honda and Toyota models) recharge their batteries during braking. Instead of wasting kinetic energy by dispersing it into the brake pads as heat, the electric motor/generator absorbs a lot of that energy and transfers it to the battery.

Hybrids never need to be plugged in and don't consume electricity from the power grid. Your point is correct with regard to purely electric cars and hydrogen cars, though, if the power and hydrogen are extracted from fossil fuels.

--B2707SST

I sometimes think this is the slashdot crowd, RTFT!

"I'm all for cars that use less fuel, but to say hybrid cars are better for the environment overall is not correct. Those batteries need power which is usually gotten from an electrical outlet "

These aren't electric cars, they are gas/electric HYBRIDS. You don't plug them in and charge them up.

Please please please, this is very simple, I don't understand why so many people don't have a damned clue.

Just READ the posts above, that is all it takes you......honest.

You don't plug ANYTHING into an outlet or charge any battery with a chord!
George

But that does not make the little things any more desirable...

Like I said, if you had read it...
...A big V10 is gooooooood for the soul.....

Provided you have one.

I'm quite happy with my V8 Silverado. I would drive one of those hybrids, provided that they didn't look like Sh*t, and cost a fortune too.

DLKAPA

JeffM-

For a second I thought our common sense and science had gotten to you and you had agreed that lower emissions and better mileage with no tradeoffs (unless you're pulling boats) might be good.

But then you're on about your V10 again. Yes, there are few things in the world like doing the 1/4 mile in 11.X @ 100+ with a big block pushing your intenstines up your mouth, I agree, but that doesn't change the purpose of this topic, to enumerate the benefits of Hybrid drive vehicles.

George


p.s. (yes I've dragged by old car in the 1/4 mile at the track, and yes I got smoked, he dialed in a 12.X and ran almost on top of that, my car ran a 14.X and saw tail lights the whole way down, but it was fun but I'm older than that now =)

[Edited 2004-01-22 07:01:56]

I am just wondering what took Mr. VW Gomes so long to reply to a thread like this.

Personally im all for hybrids, however Im still waiting for one thats decent. I will not buy ugly looking crap like a Prius, Insight, or a Civic or an Expedition Hybrid that I can tap the gas pedal of my Impala with my pinky and I will liftoff past it.

" rented a Ford Excursion today during my trip up to Mt. Rushmore. The computer told me I was getting 11mpg.... not good, I admit, considering it was empty and only hauling me..."

Somehow, I doubt anyone would rent an Excursion when they didn't have a bunch of people and stuff to haul and/or something big to tow. This was just another crass attempt to piss off other posters in this thread, it didn't really happen.

".... But I will admit a V10 is good for your soul...."

Why, because you revel in boasting what a wasteful pig you are to others, many of them European, who are of necessity committed to conservation?

-DIMWIT!

Actually, {Dimwit}
Hertz gave me the Excursion because they were out of Mid-size vehicles. It was the only car they had left. If you have ever crawled out of your hole, and actually been to RAP, you would know that they only have a small rental car fleet.

Here it is parked in the parking garage, at Mt. Rushmore. {notice the little GW profile?}



Is there something else of insignificance you wish to utter?

Jeff

[Edited 2004-01-23 02:48:15]

The Ford V-10 isnt' a big turn on for me.

I would rather have the Diesel or one of the proven V-8 motors.

Hard to go wrong with a 351.