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mbj-11
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If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Thu Jan 15, 2004 5:04 am

Listening to a recent programme on the radio, an atheist guest said that with the present Mars project underway, christians or believers in God are somewhat nervous .In his words " if life is found to exist on the planet all that they believe in ultimately would be proven to be one big hoax".
I dunno if that is necessarily true because that for me would just be an extension of what god said he did. What do you think?
Jesus is the Christ and he alone saves
 
EGGD
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Thu Jan 15, 2004 5:10 am

I don't particularly care.

However, I felt the need to say that  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
 
777236ER
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Thu Jan 15, 2004 5:21 am

God has survived wars, different churches, the understanding of the universe and amongst other things, the discovery that the Earth isn't the centre of the universe! It'll survive whatever life there is on Mars - the Bible is vague enough to ensure that.
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LHMark
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Thu Jan 15, 2004 5:26 am

I think the Bible states that God created Heaven and Earth...essentially the universe. I imagine that most Christians are comfortable that Mars falls within his juristiction.
"Sympathy is something that shouldn't be bestowed on the Yankees. Apparently it angers them." - Bob Feller
 
Espion007
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Thu Jan 15, 2004 5:33 am

Ill just say that the church long ago made a typo and life was in the whole solar system,not just earth  Smile
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lehpron
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Thu Jan 15, 2004 5:36 am

No, God's not in jeopardy, that 'atheist' was being _______ . And there can't be life on Mars now (climate is out-of-wack) but I am sure there was some way before the most religions existed. Basically proves that human beings were not his only pet-project...

Are people still selfish enough to believe that God created only us humans? I too believe that if it was only us, then the universe is indeed a heck of a serious waste of space! Talk about ineffeicent!
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
 
rsmith6621a
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Thu Jan 15, 2004 5:40 am



The Bible clearly states He(God) created Man out of the dirt of the "Earth" and Man was created in His(Gods) likeness....it also says that Man was His special creation......

They can launch 1000 missions to Mars and one thing is clear.....they aint going to find a Mars man......The Bible(Gods Word) would have said so....

I think this Mars thing is just a device to divert our attention away from another ploy to remove civil libertys without our knowing about it or some scientist has told the Bush family there is OIL on the red planet.....
Did You Ever Think Freedom Could Be this Bad
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Thu Jan 15, 2004 5:43 am

And there can't be life on Mars now

There went your credibility.....


I think this Mars thing is just a device to divert our attention away from another ploy to remove civil libertys without our knowing about it

....with yours in hot pursuit  Laugh out loud
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
lehpron
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Thu Jan 15, 2004 5:55 am

Prove it ConcordeBoy. Like I said the planet's climate ain't like Earth at all. Most [Bible] folks expect life to be just them, which is rare in the universe, but do they know that? No, most couldn't care less if a bacteria lived on another planet!

It ain't human, we can't see it's eyes, we can't talk to it, etc, etc. No one knows what life IS.
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
 
Marco
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Thu Jan 15, 2004 5:58 am

God has survived wars, different churches, the understanding of the universe and amongst other things, the discovery that the Earth isn't the centre of the universe! It'll survive whatever life there is on Mars - the Bible is vague enough to ensure that.

Actually the problem is not with the Bible. It's with ignorant people like yourself who aren't familiar with the contents of this holy book.

Proud to be an Assyrian!
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Thu Jan 15, 2004 6:15 am

Like I said the planet's climate ain't like Earth at all.

Isnt it?

Hate to rain on your party with something so petty as reality: but the 600+ degree temperature fluctuations and utter lack of oxygen within which volcanic bacteria, tubeworms, and/or other various prokaryotes thrive on this world, make relatively-temperate and CO2-filled Mars seem like a cakewalk.

...and that's not even counting such unexplored worlds as Io and Titan, where liquid water is thought to still flow.



No, most couldn't care less if a bacteria lived on another planet!

Would only be instantly lauded as the greatest scientific discovery/achievement of all time... but you're right, most wont care  Insane



In summary, you have no qualification whatsoever to state such a claim as fact. Truth be known, no one does... much less you  Laugh out loud
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
777236ER
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Thu Jan 15, 2004 6:21 am

Actually the problem is not with the Bible. It's with ignorant people like yourself who aren't familiar with the contents of this holy book.

I didn't say it was a problem, afterall the Bible's vagueness - or more accuratly, the church's ability to twist what it says to suit the current climate - is quite remarkable.
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rsmith6621a
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Thu Jan 15, 2004 6:37 am


>>>or more accuratly, the church's ability to twist what it says to suit the current climate - is quite remarkable.<<<<

Its more amazing how man who lives outside of a relationship with God will attempt to discount/dillute the meaning of the Bible as it is written....

If you dont know God Son Jesus.....you dont know the Bible.....you might read it but until you call on the name of Jesus you wont get the keys to understand it....
Did You Ever Think Freedom Could Be this Bad
 
lehpron
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Thu Jan 15, 2004 6:40 am

"Hate to rain on your party with something so petty as reality: but the 600+ degree temperature fluctuations and utter lack of oxygen within which volcanic bacteria, tubeworms, and/or other various prokaryotes thrive on this world, make relatively-temperate and CO2-filled Mars seem like a cakewalk."

Looking for life on Mars is like looking for WMD in Iraq, assuming they were there in the first place. Those life forms you spoke of I was aware, but most of those thrive in Oceans of water on Earth, something which Mars lacks. Once a rover or human team sets foot on Mars, they will have to search for months, mainly underground. Unlike WMD in Iraq, we can't say we have satellite proof that they are there!

No person would have the paitents to pay for such a massive project that takes so long and, to some, goes against their beliefs. You don't just dig an inch underground and say, "oh look, there they are!" They are all dead, they have been for billions of years, Mars is a 50% chance our future, the other 50% is Venus. You wanna look for life, look for skeletons, there's an impact for ya, unless you've been watching 'Pitch Black' a few too many times and they all are just hibernating...  Insane

I am banking on Europa than anything to have life as under its icy surface, there is an ocean of H2O in bewtween it and the hot mantle. There is life out there, it might not be a bi-ped, but it aint bacteria.

My outlook on religion is different, I do not believe God has emotions, therrefore does not pick favorites and does not give a silly fudge about us, that does not mean he doesn't care, but that there are more than just us. Life on those planet was meant as God's will, the idea may only screw with people's interpretations of it. God did not write relgious books, people did that is why they are so misleading and vague, people are not perfect to write perfect scripture.

"...man who lives outside of a relationship with God...."

Congrads, Rsmith6621a, you have made an assumption, you are now ignorant, which kills your credibility, take that ConcordeBoy, btw you're not a qualification policeman.  Smile

"If you dont know God Son Jesus.....you dont know the Bible.....you might read it but until you call on the name of Jesus you wont get the keys to understand it..."

Perhaps it is my assumption as well, but as long as one is born into a religion, it will be a part of them regardless of their beliefs. I think you confuse criticism with misunderstanding.

[Edited 2004-01-14 22:48:37]
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
 
Kay
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Thu Jan 15, 2004 6:55 am

This is quite a touchy subject. I have to say, however, that if Christianism was the way to go, how do you explain the existence of other religions in the world? why is half the planet wrong and you are right.

kay, the beleiver in a Christian power, but not too much of what has been added by humans with the years.
 
jaysit
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Thu Jan 15, 2004 6:57 am

You bet that the Jehovah's Witnesses will be on the first flight to Mars to knock on Martian doors if there is !

Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
SSTjumbo
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Thu Jan 15, 2004 6:59 am

Well, considering that there are contradicting religions, God should have been null and void long ago, yet he still exists. People like me with a more liberal view of the Bible's context can find room to fit life on Mars in. If you really want to get into detail, the two stories of creation in the first two chapters of Genesis blatantly contradict eachother. Ever wonder how the Bible could survive that? I personally find it hard to interpret the Bible literally if you read more than two paragraphs.

BTW, ever wonder if the Martians are living underground like the Morlocks in H.G. Wells's novel The Time Machine? Maybe that explains those abductions  Wink/being sarcastic.
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Marco
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Thu Jan 15, 2004 7:15 am

didn't say it was a problem, afterall the Bible's vagueness - or more accuratly, the church's ability to twist what it says to suit the current climate - is quite remarkable.

Actually don't speak for the Bible. You know nothing about it. You proved your lack of knowledge in the past when I corrected you on numerous occassions.
Proud to be an Assyrian!
 
b757300
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Thu Jan 15, 2004 7:28 am

Simple answer, No. Why should our belief in God be shaken because he decided to create life on another planet as well as on Earth?
"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
 
Beefmoney
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Thu Jan 15, 2004 7:45 am

I am a Christian. I have accepted Christ as my savior and I believe I have a personal relationship with Him.

My belief about the origin of the universe is that God DID cause it to come into existance, and that he DID cause humans and everything else that is or was on earth to exist. Do I take Genesis literally? No. Did he pick up some dirt and mold it into a human shape? Im going to have to say that I dont think so. I think that Gensis uses a good amount of poetic license. I believe in the overall truth of the book. He DID create the Heavens and the Earth. Basically, the entire universe. HOW did he create the heavens, earth, humans, plants, etc..? I dont know. He could have used the big bang, or he could have just *poof*ed them into existance. I dont know. But I dont hold the Bible hostage to somthing and completely block out any sort of discovery about the universes' truths. If there is life on mars, it would not shake my faith at all. If it did shake my faith, it would mean that I assumed that I knew every detail about how God created the universe, and that it had been contridicted. But I do not know how He did it.

Life on mars fits perfectly with the way God created the universe. Unfortunatly I dont know what way that was. I only know that it works perfectly with it, no matter what. We just dont have the ability to understand how the pieces go together right now. Just take in faith that they do.
 
fspilot747
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Thu Jan 15, 2004 7:59 am

"they aint going to find a Mars man......The Bible(Gods Word) would have said so...."

Aww, well shucks. I guess cause the Bible didn't say so it's not going to happen  Yeah sure


FSP
 
DC10GUY
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Thu Jan 15, 2004 8:15 am

Its the liberals that are trying to find "life" on other planets. Education & liberals go hand in hand. More Education means less religion. When Galileo said the world was round the pope jailed him and threatened to kill him if he didn't retract his theory.
Next time try the old "dirty Sanchez" She'll love it !!!
 
777236ER
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Thu Jan 15, 2004 9:15 am

Actually don't speak for the Bible. You know nothing about it. You proved your lack of knowledge in the past when I corrected you on numerous occassions.

Marco - the Bible is vague, no? The church has changed its story over the yeras to fit the current scienfitic beliefs, no?
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Qb001
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Thu Jan 15, 2004 9:22 am

God has died long time ago...
Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
 
bobrayner
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Thu Jan 15, 2004 10:17 am

The Bible clearly states He(God) created Man out of the dirt of the "Earth" and Man was created in His(Gods) likeness....it also says that Man was His special creation......

And if an ox could paint a picture of his god, it would look like an ox.

They can launch 1000 missions to Mars and one thing is clear.....they aint going to find a Mars man......The Bible(Gods Word) would have said so....

The bible does not contain a complete description of Earth, let alone of the vast universe beyond it. All that the bible could tell you about mars is through inferences; if results from mars probes contradict these it's hardly enough to disprove the whole book, given that people still believe in it despite much bigger discrepancies being found in the past.

Actually the problem is not with the Bible. It's with ignorant people like yourself who aren't familiar with the contents of this holy book.

Why? What does the bible say about astronomy and exobiology in this respect?

If you dont know God Son Jesus.....you dont know the Bible.....you might read it but until you call on the name of Jesus you wont get the keys to understand it....

The meaning of the bible is hidden? I thought it was open to all who wanted to know...?
Cunning linguist
 
zak
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Thu Jan 15, 2004 10:19 am

and i always thought the cardhouse of nonsense build by the religious ppl toppled over during the enlightenment period. well seems that it didnt cross the pond
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Aloha717200
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Thu Jan 15, 2004 10:42 am

The simple truth, is that nothing will ever prove nor disprove the existence of God. Nothing. It can't be proven either way.


If we're to say that God doesnt exist....where did the universe come from....okay, from the big bang, fine. Where did the big bang come from?

From an infinitely small, infinitely dense, infinitely hot speck of matter which expanded abruptly and forcefully.

Fine, where did the speck come from.

A collapsed universe? And where did that universe come from? And it goes on and on and on in an endless catch 22, and you never can quite reach a beginning.



On the flip-side...if God created the universe...where did God come from? Did another god create him, is there a hierchy? Fine, where did that other god, or heirchy, come from?

Same catch 22.


No matter how you slice, dice, and serve it, you will never ever come to a conclusion of where it all began and how it all began, God or no god. Man, I think, is simply not capable of thinking beyond terms of everything having a beginning and an end. For something to just "be" without any reason or cause, is beyond our comprehension. You can accept that something "is" and always "was", but humans may never understand "why" or "how".

That's how i see it.
 
bobrayner
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Thu Jan 15, 2004 11:17 am

The simple truth, is that nothing will ever prove nor disprove the existence of God. Nothing. It can't be proven either way.

The bible says a few things about god. If those statements are disproven, and if (per your example) god's only role is to push the first actor onto the stage, and then hide behind the scenes - then you could say "ahh, but god can still exist" but only by using a radically different definition of god. The god who supposedly provided the bible (or most of the content) had a bigger role than that.

I could equally say that "elves" or "ogres" exist, by adopting a vastly broader definition of "elves" or "ogres".

Fine, where did the speck come from.

A collapsed universe? And where did that universe come from? And it goes on and on and on in an endless catch 22, and you never can quite reach a beginning.


Most cosmologists don't see this as a religious obstacle.
Why do we need any time or event to precede a big bang?
Cunning linguist
 
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Aloha717200
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Thu Jan 15, 2004 11:27 am

The problem is that the Big Bang doesnt explain everything. They say the origin of the big bang was that speck I spoke of, but, where did the speck come from? That remains unanswered.

And the reason I skipped all the way to the beginning of time is because thats truly as far back as you can go with questions relating to God. And the mere fact that "existence" exists at all remains the biggest question of all time. Even if life was created just by amino acids and electricity mixing in some mudhole billions of years ago (something that i find hard to believe), even that wouldnt disprove a God. Because the question of existence of anything at all remains unanswered.
 
POSITIVE RATE
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Thu Jan 15, 2004 12:21 pm

Aloha717200 very well put, i agree with what you're saying!

As far as discovering life on other planets why should it disprove the existence of GOD? The universe is large beyond human comprehension and still expanding to this very day. Why would GOD go to all that trouble of creating the entire universe with it's billions and billions of galaxies, stars, solar systems, planets and then let life exist on only one of those planets? It just doesn't make sense. To quote a line from Contact the film: "if there is noone at all out there except us, what a waste of space".
 
vafi88
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Thu Jan 15, 2004 1:03 pm

I don't particularly believe in a god or a higher power. I think all of this was made by evolution (not only here on earth, but the big bang and such) so that religions have proven to be different. Think about it... Why would the Christians care??? If the words of the so called (no flaming, comon) "God" were written by Hebrews in their language, then how is the Christian religion right??? I'm not bashing on religion, I respect you if you believe or don't believe. But look at it this way: If all religions believe theirs is right, then how is it all settled on one??? I mean If the TRUE religion was to be, wouldn't it be in that same bible that the Hebrews wrote way back when???

If someone really had a conversation with "God" that told them to go write a book about it (Mormons), how would anyone know it's the truth? Or maybe it was just their view on the world itself?

If there was really a god, wouldn't it be official during the first book???

As for Mars - Forget about it, this project will take decades, and we can't even get into space with the space shuttle grounded.

Sorry to spoil things...

Vitaly
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airplay
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Thu Jan 15, 2004 1:41 pm

They can launch 1000 missions to Mars and one thing is clear.....they aint going to find a Mars man......The Bible(Gods Word) would have said so....

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.....I almost pissed myself when I read that!

The simple truth is, that anytime something in the bible is challenged or questioned, professional (and armchair) theologians will work tirelessly to amend the "real" (We got it right this time!) interpretation of the Bible.

Of course this will produce even more Christian spin-offs and revitalize the extremists and orthodox but its all good entertainment.

A great example of this is found in the "Religious Question" thread. DC10guy asked a simple question about the aparant discrepency between one god touted by Christianity and the consideration of Jesus.

A few hundred lines of rhetoric just cast a greater shroud of mystery around the simple question! These liguistic gymnastics don't fool any sensible person. Like they say, if you can't impress them with facts, dazzle them with....theology!

 Smile
 
zak
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Thu Jan 15, 2004 1:48 pm

@Aloha717200

you always come up on how noone can deny gods existance due to lack of full understanding of the universe in physics.
physics are one field of science. and physics makes as much sense in relation to "explaining religion" as math. none.
try philosophy, sociology and psychology for your answers on why god or whatever entity whoever believes in does not exist.



note: saying god doesnt exist doesnt imply trying to tell other people what to believe and what not to, like some people in the laicity thread indicated. its simply a matter of not forcing your own "faith" onto other people, as often happens with same sex marriage, abortion etc.
10=2
 
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Aloha717200
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Thu Jan 15, 2004 2:02 pm

I'm not trying to explain religion at all. And I dont subscribe to any one set of beliefs.


What I'm using is pure logic here. I cannot say for certain whether I do or do not believe in God. Truth be known, I have no idea. All I know is, there's one hell of a big question out there:

If God doesnt exist.....where did all this come from. And if God exists...where did he come from.

So I'm not trying to tell anyone that they're right or they're wrong. I personally dont believe that conflicting religions disprove a god, nor do i believe that the existence of scrolls in the middle east or a bible that's been retranslated and added to over the years definitively prove that there is a god either. From a pure logical standpoint, no true conclusion can be reached as to whether god definitively exists, or definitively does not, and it will never be proven either way.

That is my point. Not sure why I ruffled your feathers, sorry if I did. I just think there's alot more to it than what is written in the pages of a book. A heck of alot more....
 
Beefmoney
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Thu Jan 15, 2004 2:06 pm

One way to look at the "All the religions, which one is right, etc..." thing is to use this analogy.

A bunch of people are inside a house. They find a piece of paper on the ground that says that there is a man inside the closet, and that this man built the house and everything in it, and one day he will come out and show himself to everyone again. All the people divide up amongst themselves depending on how much they believe what the paper says to be true. The closet is locked so there is no way to see if there is really a man inside. There is no evidence that says there is a man inside. They keep knocking on the door to the closet, but no one answers them.

Some people continue to believe what the paper says, some dont. And some start changing what the paper says to fit what they believe. That the man isnt really in the closet, but actually in the garage. And that group gets some more believers, and it grows. Eventually, over the generations, these gaps between the groups grows. They all morph and change. They all ridicule each other and make fun of the others. "How can you believe there is a man in the closet when he gives you no proof of his existance?" "How do you know which group is right?" "Why are there so many factions if there is one true answer?"

Eventually over time, the one true original paper was lost, so each new generation had to choose for themselves which group they believed was correct.Well, lets just say that maybe one day, the guy walks out of the closet and rewards all the people who stayed true and believed the one correct interpretation. He did exist, he did build the house, and he wasnt in the garage, as some said. One faction was right, the others were wrong. Each group put their own spin on the paper they found, and some of them paid the price for it.

This is all basically the same thing. We belong to one religion because we believe that we are correct. Just because there are different religions doesnt mean that they are all wrong. We just believe that the way we interpret it is correct, and that the others are incorrect.

That, in its simplest form, is what religion is. You put your faith in one of the beliefs. One is right, the others are wrong. Which one do you put your faith in?

*Note: It may seem that the "closet analogy" came into existance due to LSD.  Smile I plead that this is not the case. Its just my philisophical mind trying to fit the battle of religion into an event we can semi-relate to. It might not make total sense, but hopefully you get the essence of it.
 
zak
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Thu Jan 15, 2004 2:08 pm

@aloha
all in good spirit, didnt "ruffle" my feathers.
i just responded to the statement you made earlier:
"The simple truth, is that nothing will ever prove nor disprove the existence of God. Nothing. It can't be proven either way."
maybe the context of my previous posting is clear now  Smile
10=2
 
QANTASforever
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Thu Jan 15, 2004 2:15 pm

God has died long time ago...


BINGO!
Fighting for the glory of the Australian Republic.
 
IMissPiedmont
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Thu Jan 15, 2004 2:46 pm

I see a few people trying to "prove" what cannot be proven. I believe what I believe and do not denegrate, or try to change others opinions.

What I truly find troubling is the so called Christians that would limit Gods power, whatever that may be, by saying there is no way life exists anywhere but on our small rock. What an insult.
The day you stop learning is the day you should die.
 
vafi88
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Thu Jan 15, 2004 3:08 pm

ImissPiedmont - Maybe they find it troubling that you believe in the contrary... ever though of that???

As for the whole religious thing: You're right: god cannot be proven either way, some believe some don't. The thing for me, is that believing how "god" made everything and us, while clearly there is evolution which has been proven...

Nobody can prove that anyone is real, or not: so I go with this: Mars is an isolated planet... nobody is living there at the current time. The universe is not god's. For what I've read from different bibles they all say that the heavens and Earth was made by god, and hell by Hades (the devil, satan) But nowhere have I encountered anything about the Universe...

Let's just leave it at that... Religion isn't something to be discussed at all... nobody has facts to prove anything.

Vitaly
I'd like to elect a president that has a Higher IQ than a retarted ant.
 
BN747
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Thu Jan 15, 2004 8:19 pm

Exodus 20
The Ten Commandments
1 And God spoke all these words:
2 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
3 "You shall have no other gods before [1] me.


I saw this posted in another thread (plus I've read it in the bible as well) However, below is an article published in the LA Times last year.

Doubting the Story of Exodus
Many scholars have quietly concluded that the epic of Moses never happened, and even Jewish clerics are raising questions. Others think it combines myth, cultural memories and kernels of truth.

By TERESA WATANABE, Times Religion Writer


It's one of the greatest stories ever told: A baby is found in a basket adrift in the Egyptian Nile and is adopted into the pharaoh's household. He grows up as Moses, rediscovers his roots and leads his enslaved Israelite brethren to freedom after God sends down 10 plagues against Egypt and parts the Red Sea to allow them to escape. They wander for 40 years in the wilderness and, under the leadership of Joshua, conquer the land of Canaan to enter their promised land.
For centuries, the biblical account of the Exodus has been revered as the founding story of the Jewish people, sacred scripture for three world religions and a universal symbol of freedom that has inspired liberation movements around the globe. But did the Exodus ever actually occur?
On Passover last Sunday, Rabbi David Wolpe raised that provocative question before 2,200 faithful at Sinai Temple in Westwood. He minced no words. "The truth is that virtually every modern archeologist who has investigated the story of the Exodus, with very few exceptions, agrees that the way the Bible describes the Exodus is not the way it happened, if it happened at all," Wolpe told his congregants.Wolpe's startling sermon may have seemed blasphemy to some. In fact, however, the rabbi was merely telling his flock what scholars have known for more than a decade. Slowly and often outside wide public purview, archeologists are radically reshaping modern understanding of the Bible. It was time for his people to know about it, Wolpe decided. After a century of excavations trying to prove the ancient accounts true, archeologists say there is no conclusive evidence that the Israelites were ever in Egypt, were ever enslaved, ever wandered in the Sinai wilderness for 40 years or ever conquered the land of Canaan under Joshua's leadership. To the contrary, the prevailing view is that most of Joshua's fabled military campaigns never occurred--archeologists have uncovered ash layers and other signs of destruction at the relevant time at only one of the many battlegrounds mentioned in the Bible.
Today, the prevailing theory is that Israel probably emerged peacefully out of Canaan--modern-day Lebanon, southern Syria, Jordan and the West Bank of Israel?whose people are portrayed in the Bible as wicked idolators. Under this theory, the Canaanites who took on a new identity as Israelites were perhaps joined or led by a small group of Semites from Egypt--explaining a possible source of the Exodus story, scholars say. As they expanded their settlement, they may have begun to clash with neighbors, perhaps providing the historical nuggets for the conflicts recorded in Joshua and Judges....


The article continues..but I figure if you've stuck around this far..you get the point.

It didn't take reading this article to question what the problem was here regarding 'god', Moses and the rest. Being one fascinated with American and world history and the plight of man..and the history he creates made very clear to me the problems with the wholesale selling of 'faith' and religious beliefs. I personally believe people are entitled to believe what ever they choose. But I am put off by when my intelligence is insulted by mindless stunts like Pat Robertson's recent 'god spoke to me and told me G.W. Bush will be re-elected' and the in your face god squad tactics being played out in every media forum. Islamic fundamentalist/fanatics such as the ass clowns running Iran (and many other nations) at the moment and their vile attempts to keep people as ignorant as possible via fear and intimidation.

But regarding the above, long ago I did the simple of math of -- If god lead his people out of slavery in Egypt...wouldn't the 1st, 2nd or at least the 3rd or at least after 'Thou shalt not kill' commandment would have been 'Thou shalt not practice slavery?' The only thing that trumps owning another human from cradle to grave --slavery (or at any point in their life)--- is murder. But when god handed down these laws (through the burning bush to Moses on Mt. Sinai. He appeared to have forgotten all about what these people had been through. He elected to warn them of jealous, envy or their neighbors possessions or his wife. Children to honor their parents. Telling lies (bearing false witness) against one another and so on. These laws are so 'subject specific' it's impossible to overlook such a travesty as slavery.

Only human error could commit such an egregious omission. A perfect god would not. And therein lies my point, the flawed hand of man is all over the place in the bible, the Quran and the Torah! It's a great ensemble of parables allegories and that's about it. Over this last christmas period, there was a religious special on the History Channel titled 'Banned from the Bible'. It showcased 'books of the bible' that were seriously considered for placement among the known scriptures but deemed to controversial or caused more questions than a providing of answers thus ruled as not worthy of inclusion.
One was a written account of the boyhood life of Jesus, which read of a tempestuous child who lashed out and used his powers against bullies and 'smart mouthed' his teachers (the 1st Dennis the Menace if you will) but was helpful with his brother James and Mary and Joseph. He carried water for drink from a well in his robe. With the touch of a seed..he grew fields of grain. Whoa...why didn't he just take a drop of water and place a lake or a stream near the house..that would eliminate the need of trekking back and forth water.

Regardless of these 'what ifs and shouldas' and couldas'..the point is this stuff was crafted by some very clever people. Firstly, it had to be crafted by those who could write. Literacy at the time was dismal and scant at best..certainly restricted to higher and ruling classes (who had the luxury of 'time' for learning). The temples and places of worship of the day only existed with the consent of the powerful and ruling classes. Infact, it had to be a symbiotic existence of sorts between the two. If the alliance was between the poor and the temple....that would never work...the powerful would have eliminated them both (and they did). Sure there have been kings/rulers at odds with spiritual leaders and this is noted..but for the most part you'll see that in most civilizations, recorded history shows the church/spiritual centers and seats of power pretty much respected each other and gave deference when it was advantageous to one or the other or both. Since the days of Julius Ceasar few gov'ts have been at odds with the Vatican. The Vatican had 'interest' in the Slave Trade of between Europe, Africa and the Americas. The Vatican quietly supported the South in the US Civil War. The Vatican was silent during Hitler's reign and did nothing to help fleeing oppressed jews. The reach of the Vatican is global and when and if you go to Rome you can almost touch it's influence. Today American politicians quickly invoke 'god' (and the flag) to gain ground with 'middle America'. And middle America is foolish enough to fall for it at every turn.

Peaceful Islamic forces aren't doing anything notable today in trying to dissuade young arab boys/girls/men and women from becoming suicide bombers. Because they themselves fear retaliation from their neighboring Islamic fundamentalist.

But in it's defense I'll admit that the bible and such writings lend hope to those who have little else (and that's exactly who it's target audience is). It gets those in despair to happier surroundings or through trying times. These writings do point the way to an order in which to live life however they usually come with caveats and restrictions. The same writings came into America to save the heathen savage indians and virtually destroyed their existence, into savage Africa and the place is still a mess, into China and cased a massive upheaval of a existence that thrived steadily for centuries (I used 'savage' because this is how missionaries chose to characterized the regions). It seems it causes as much bedlam and chaos as it proves relief for. It has a long and proven history as the best tool to managing the masses. It has the same efficacies as a 'reign of fear and terror'..producing a society of like thinking people. After all..the fear of going to a hell or and afterlife consequence is what keeps most believers in check. Perhaps what's even more difficult for most is to really sit and ponder....what if there is no god...then what? Then the very cause of existence comes into question...and for a lot of people..that's more than they can handle.

And until that day comes (if we don't kill ourselves first) and that day being one where enlighten peoples far out-number those who are too impressionable and easily swayed by fear and terror..we will remain questioning who's god is right and who's is wrong. We are after all malleable beings, but progressive thought advancement and technological innovation is brought us to the point where we have to let go of some of the things that have got us where we are today. I believe religious text and such beliefs have a limited place if we are to become a better world. Whether the bible likes it or not, change is coming, knowledge yet to be availed to us does exist here on earth and beyond (perhaps not Mars) and the bible will have no way to address the issues to come with such new revelations and situations. Someone once said that 'one's religious beliefs places limitations on one's achieved level of intelligence' meaning that when knowledge reaches a certain point..it begins to challenge and threaten the very foundations of a taught faith. And you faithful...are taught faith..you don't come out of the womb with it. That's when you must ask yourself that question 'do I go with god or do I go with science?' Painstaking efforts have been underway to attempt to join the two..but it'll never work. Sooner or later, the 'adult' children will have to be told at an earlier and earlier age that Santa isn't real after all and he never existed.


BN747







"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
777236ER
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Thu Jan 15, 2004 11:25 pm

From a pure logical standpoint, no true conclusion can be reached as to whether god definitively exists, or definitively does not, and it will never be proven either way.

Which is a problem with religion's definition of God, not a problem with science. God is omnipotent, and the religious books are ambiguous with hard facts. So prove that the Bible is wrong in one place, and all of a sudden it becomes a metaphor - obviously the literal meaning wasn't meant to be taken, right?

God him(?)self can change forms and still survive. God used to exist in heaven beyond the stars, and keep the earth, moon and stars rotate the way it was thought they do. Science showed this view to be wrong, yet God still existed - now existing in a place we can't see him, or "everywhere". But there is no evidence needed for God - after all why should we mere mortals "see" him? Blind faith, or faith based on a story or events that happened thousands of years ago is a pre-requisite of all religions.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
N6376M
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Thu Jan 15, 2004 11:32 pm

Reminds me of the quote that appears on many t-shirts:

"God is dead" by the philosopher Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

"Nietzsche is dead," God



 
bobrayner
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Fri Jan 16, 2004 12:03 am

The problem is that the Big Bang doesnt explain everything. They say the origin of the big bang was that speck I spoke of, but, where did the speck come from? That remains unanswered.

If God doesnt exist.....where did all this come from. And if God exists...where did he come from.

The explanation described by Hawking & Penrose in the 1960s now seems widely accepted. Even St Augustine got pretty close.  Wink/being sarcastic

That is it's anachronistic to think of Newtonian time whilst the rest of your system is relativistic. It doesn't continue infinitely, in a straight line in both directions, whilst the rest of space curves out of a big bang. Time is distorted too.

Consider a light-cone, looking back at the big bang, from here and now. Eventually, as you look further back, density increases and the sides of the cone start to become parallel, and then bend back in towards each other; the curve gets ever-tighter as the universe gets denser (earlier), until the sides meet again at the big bang. The 'cone' is now a pear shape, containing the entire observable universe, and the big bang. It's a closed surface; nothing outside the surface can be observed. Of course, there could be anything outside the light-cone - but that's where Occam's razor comes in.

I mean If the TRUE religion was to be, wouldn't it be in that same bible that the Hebrews wrote way back when???

This assumes that the first such book would be right (for instance, divinely inspired). Why is this necessary?

Having said that, the oldest text that we can reasonably use as a substitute - the Epic of Gilgamesh - has a few things in common with the bible &c. Depending on your perspective, this could be because they describe the same underlying truth (but for some reason God allowed both stories to propogate even though they can't both be right). Or, it could be because both incorporate common mythology.

They can launch 1000 missions to Mars and one thing is clear.....they aint going to find a Mars man......The Bible(Gods Word) would have said so....

What does The Bible(Gods Word) say about continental drift, fitted kitchens, ice caps, lawyers, plastic surgery, package holidays, microscopes, stainless steel, laminated flooring, gunpowder, antibiotics, and a.net? If they're not mentioned, does that mean they're impossible?

Cunning linguist
 
N6376M
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Fri Jan 16, 2004 12:10 am

Modern scientific theory will never be able to explain what caused the big bang. The universe created the time through which it expanded. At the moment before the big bang (I believe this is referred to as singularity), when all matter was compressed into one point, time did not exist, therefore we can't express, in terms which we now use, what existed before the Big Bang.

Some theorist propose that the universe in which we currently exist is just one iteration of a cycle of Big Bangs and Big Crunches (the opposite of the big bang when the universe collapses back upon itself). If they are correct, there may have been countless numbers of universes that existed before us and countless that may exist after us, with no record to account for their existence.
 
777236ER
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Fri Jan 16, 2004 12:13 am

Modern scientific theory will never be able to explain what caused the big bang

but then...

Some theorist propose that the universe in which we currently exist is just one iteration of a cycle of Big Bangs and Big Crunches

Isn't that a contradiction?
Your bone's got a little machine
 
Marco
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Fri Jan 16, 2004 2:10 am

Marco - the Bible is vague, no?

No it's not. I don't care what the "church" has done. I care about God's word and the Bible.

Shouldn't you be defending Islam on the other thread 777236ER and showing your double standards?
Proud to be an Assyrian!
 
777236ER
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Fri Jan 16, 2004 2:16 am

Careful now, no personal attacks.

"God created the world in seven days". That did not happen - even the most faithful Christian fundamentalist couldn't say that. All the proof is that did not happen. In that case, are we to take that part of the Bible as a metaphor?
Your bone's got a little machine
 
Marco
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Fri Jan 16, 2004 2:23 am

I'm not attavking you, I'm showing your hypocrisy. In the other thread you're doing your best to defend Islam in the name of tolerance. Well what happened to your so called tolerance?

As for creation, when you have 100% proof (ie: you were there) only then will I believe you. I'm not saying that I don't believe in science, but I have faith. Keep your lack of faith 777236ER to yourself. Stop trying to change the whole world.
Proud to be an Assyrian!
 
777236ER
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Fri Jan 16, 2004 2:28 am

I'm showing your hypocrisy. In the other thread you're doing your best to defend Islam in the name of tolerance. Well what happened to your so called tolerance?

I'm not being hypocritical, you have every right to believe what you want to believe and I will defend that right for as long as it takes. That being said, in my opinion both the Bible and the Quran are ambiguous, and it is this along with the work of the Church and the Mosque that allows God to addapt to more modern times.

You have to admit that Christian thinking HAS changed over the years, even if the fundamentals remain.

I'm not saying that I don't believe in science, but I have faith.

What happens if there's scientific evidence that challenges your faith?
Your bone's got a little machine
 
N6376M
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Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2003 12:54 am

RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Fri Jan 16, 2004 2:30 am

777236ER -

I don't believe that the statements contradict one another. To state that the scientist now propose by no means denotes that the idea is accepted or has any scientific basis to it. It is a proposal, an idea thrown out there for debate. It doesn't even rise to the leve of a "theory".

-76M

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