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GC
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Fri Jan 16, 2004 2:31 am

"Careful now, no personal attacks.

"God created the world in seven days". That did not happen - even the most faithful Christian fundamentalist couldn't say that. All the proof is that did not happen. In that case, are we to take that part of the Bible as a metaphor?"

Show me the proof it didn't happen. Also I find it illogical that everything happened by chance. It's like a tornado hitting a scrap yard and building a 747 at random.

Where did God come from then, well logically if God is by definition eternal and the Creator, then he needn't be created as he created everything including the concept of a linear timeline where things have a beginning and an end. I think athiests need to broaden their thinking instaed of spouting off denial based "logic". Even Stephen Hawking has had the open mindedness to say that in all probablility there has to be a creator.
 
777236ER
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Fri Jan 16, 2004 2:34 am

Show me the proof it didn't happen.

All the evidence suggests the Earth was formed over millions of years with matter in the solar system condensing due to gravity to form the planets and the sun.
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Marco
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Fri Jan 16, 2004 2:35 am

You have to admit that Christian thinking HAS changed over the years, even if the fundamentals remain.

Actually most Christians follow the same Bible.

I'm not saying that I don't believe in science, but I have faith.

What happens if there's scientific evidence that challenges your faith


That's the thing it doesn't challenge our faith. You either can't see that or don't want to.
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Aloha717200
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Fri Jan 16, 2004 2:36 am

Isn't that a contradiction?


No, it's not, because even though there is a theory that another universe collapsed in on itself to form the singularity, there still is no explanation for where that other universe came from. And if it came from another Big bang, then what created the singularity in that big bang?

You see? The existence of space and time is not simply explained by a speck of matter that existed at the beginning of time. Because it still leaves the question of where that speck came from, and even if the question of where that speck came from were answered with a theory or even proven that another universe created that singularity, it still doesnt provide an answer as to how, whatever existed before it, came to be. But again, even if you explain it by saying God created it, that still leaves the question of where God came from, and where the creator of God came from, etc.

That's why no matter what they prove here, it'll never be proven or disproven. There are other worrisome questions about god and the afterlife....for example....if a human is cloned and the clone grows into an adult...that clone started out with a cell from the original person. If people have souls...would that cell contain part of that soul? And if so, does that mean two human beings would share the same soul? Or would one be soul-less?

But if that clone is aware of him/herself, fully thinking, with thoughts and emotions and hopes and dreams and goals, just like the rest of us, isnt it a shame that such a person would cease to exist rather than live on after death? It doesnt seem right....so they should have a soul shouldn't they? But where the heck does their soul come from if they were constructed inside a test tube using the cell from another person. That's a big question that will nwever be answered either. It's hard to believe in what you cant see, but what a waste life is if there is no afterlife. But the idea or people having souls that live on after death logically doesnt make sense. But emotionally, it does.
 
777236ER
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Fri Jan 16, 2004 2:38 am

Actually most Christians follow the same Bible.

Nevertheless, the Church and practising Christians have changed over the years, no?
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Marco
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Fri Jan 16, 2004 3:14 am

Not the practising Christians. We practise the same Christianity from the same Bible.
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BN747
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Fri Jan 16, 2004 6:07 am

"Some theorist propose that the universe in which we currently exist is just one iteration of a cycle of Big Bangs and Big Crunches (the opposite of the big bang when the universe collapses back upon itself). If they are correct, there may have been countless numbers of universes that existed before us and countless that may exist after us, with no record to account for their existence."

N6376m...this is the nexus of the 'multiple universe' theory and one that I, for one, believe is on the right track! Because it follows a simple cycle (but on a far grander and cosmic scale) that is repeated here on earth. We birth, we recreate/rebirth and we die...but the process continuously expands while repeating itself. Animals and plant life do this as does bacteria and every other living thing..seen and unseen. Species are continuously replaced by other species ( we 'do know' dinosaurs did factually exist -- and the bible supposedly covers Earth's birth and it's demise and never mentions the reign of the creatures). As species are replaced by newer ones they are different...that to me explains why planets,moons, stars and galaxies are all so different. As different as they all are...they are all pretty much made up of the same stuff we are made of....the most common element in the universe....hydrogen.


BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
bobrayner
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Fri Jan 16, 2004 9:12 pm

Even Stephen Hawking has had the open mindedness to say that in all probablility there has to be a creator.

Surely, he said that the existence of a creator couldn't be disproven?

Not the practising Christians. We practise the same Christianity from the same Bible.

The same bible has, nonetheless, inspired a very wide range of different beliefs; copt, catholic, quaker, lutheran, methodist, elbonian orthodox, and so on. Many of these differ as much in belief as they do in ceremony/practice. People reading the same book have alternately said that lightning is a manifestation of god's anger, or of charge separation in clouds; some baptise babies, some baptise adults, some baptise a regular basis, some baptise posthumously; some have been abstemious, others hedonistic; and so on.

Are these all christians? Did all but you misinterpret the bible, or are these variations irrelevant?
Cunning linguist
 
IMissPiedmont
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Sat Jan 17, 2004 3:12 pm

"Maybe they find it troubling that you believe in the contrary... ever though of that???"

And why should anyone find troubling what I believe?
The day you stop learning is the day you should die.
 
westjet_8
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Sat Jan 17, 2004 4:28 pm

Here in Calgary on Elbow drive reads a sign next to a curch "Big bang theory, are you serouis?" I find this to be a huge joke. Of course the scientists who thought this up were serouis and its much more belivable then that someone built the earth in seven days.

Also the bible already has some major flaws that don't even metion some of the life on earth (dinosaurs and the giant comet (most likey) killing them off). It seems sort of odd that when god was chatting to moses he forgot to metion the earth almost previosuly being wiped out. Of course the bible doesn't metion mars back when some HUMAN made the book of legens and miths we call the bible because they didn't know it exsisted. Why would god not share with the human rase if there was life somewhere other then our planet no matter how insignifigant.

Thats why I think the bible is increably flawed from more then just Mars and if people wake up and see now why the hell didn't he metion that? I do think there is some vaule in regilion, it helps people though tough times though their respective faiths but really, the modren studies of science and math have given the bible major flaws that society needs to relize.

David

Canadian. RIP 1999
 
GC
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Sat Jan 17, 2004 6:23 pm

David, you obviously haven't read it. The bible contains scientific knwoledge ahead of its time. It mentions a round Earth, it talks about dinosaurs (in Job for example)

http://www.christiananswers.net/dinosaurs/j-where2.html

The Old Testament (especially the Jewish law) talks about germ prevention, good crop science etc. Also, you are assuming that scientist are correct when they age the Earth (carbon dating is very flawed).

As regards different types of baptism , that is really irrelevant, What matters is that Christians believe the fundamentals of the apostles creed (called orthodoxy), the style in which they worship and live is up to them.
 
MD-90
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Sat Jan 17, 2004 7:31 pm

I have a feeling that if God told the people whom He inspired to write the Bible about other planets, they would've written it down but neither they nor anyone else would've understood what it meant (save for some people in Hellas ... the ancient Greeks figured out that the world was round long before Galileo did).

The ahteist saying that Christians are nervous about Mars exploration is silly. No they're not. Surely life doesn't just exist here on earth. It may have once existed on Mars, and what is really exciting is that it may exist even now on Europa.

And since the Bible was translated into English in 1611, it has not changed and is as we know it now. I can't say the same for the NIV, NAS, NKJV, and others based upon the Alexandrian manuscripts (the King James was translated from scripts in Antioch).

Science is becoming more certain of how the universe came into being, but they still haven't figured out the who, yet. And I for one believe in the literal 7 days. Maybe not seven 24 hour days (the earth's rotation has been slowing down through the centuries, and the days are getting longer ... slowly).
 
777236ER
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Sat Jan 17, 2004 11:12 pm

The bible contains scientific knwoledge ahead of its time. It mentions a round Earth, it talks about dinosaurs (in Job for example)

In my opinion, Job is talking about elephants. Oh, is my interpretation wrong? Does that make me a Christian or not? Who's interpretation is right?!

By the way, that website is hilarious. What a biased load of crap. I wonder if any teachers actually do use it to teach kids, let's hope not.

I have a feeling that if God told the people whom He inspired to write the Bible about other planets, they would've written it down but neither they nor anyone else would've understood what it meant (save for some people in Hellas

Sounds like you're trying to justify life on other plants by assuming what God did. Maybe he just doesn't exist? Isn't that a valid explanation?

And I for one believe in the literal 7 days

All the scientific evidence suggests you're wrong.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
POSITIVE RATE
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Sat Jan 17, 2004 11:21 pm

I agree with 777236ER regarding the scientific evidence. The planet Earth took millions and millions of years to form into what we now know it as. In the beginning it was a molten ball of rock- that period alone lasted a few thousand years. After it cooled oceans developed thanks to comets striking the Earth and eventually an atmosphere formed. This entire process from a molten ball of rock to a breathable Earth with water and an atmosphere took millions of years and there is ample evidence to show that.
 
GC
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Sun Jan 18, 2004 2:45 am

"What a biased load of crap"

What and your not!! Big grin

You blindly believe scientific THEORIES (note that word). More and more of the scientific community are pointing towards a creator!
 
kilavoud
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Sun Jan 18, 2004 3:28 am

Till now nobody has seen any flowers on Mars. But it's an acknowledged fact that there are a lot of craters on the Red Planet, big and smaller ones.

We usually do not find these craters on Earth. But many on other planets like Jupiter, Mercury, Saturn.....

First question: May the other planets turning round the sun have been placed in their respective orbits by divine providence as a protection for the inhabited Earth, that should not receive fragments of Comets, meteorites or others, fortunately attracted elsewhere in the solar system.

Second question : Would it be advisable to dwell on a planet attracting dangerous materials from the space ?

Cheers. Kilavoud.
 
BN747
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Sun Jan 18, 2004 10:20 am

"Look at the behemoth, which I made along with you and which feed on grass like an ox. What strength he has in his loins, what power in the muscles of his belly! His tail sways like a cedar; the sinews of his thighs are close-knit. His bones are tubes of bronze, his limbs like rods of iron. He ranks first among the works of God..." Job 40:15-19

Nice try Gc,...but if he was describing as apatosaurus, the sheer size would have floored him and had him in shock and awe! Nothing was that tall in those days not even the biggest buildings of the day...what were they 1 or 2 stories tops...an apatosaurus would be about the size of a 4-5 story building. Plus the tail doesn't sway..it drags for balance. After being blown away by the size the next thing he'd notice would be the neck....as we do today with a giraffe. We don't note that a giraffe eats plants we notice and are mesmerized by it's elongated neck 1st then make note of it's other features. Sinews (sinewy) means defined muscular appearance -as in lithe- this would descibe the legs of a T-rex or a Velociraptor..if he noted fits of all there serrated teeth and powerful jaws and find out quite quickly they don't eat plants !
I'm nowhere near being an paleontologist..and I'm certain a real paleontologist would have a field day ripping that book apart! Again..nice try, but that site is loaded with crap!

BN747


"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
Marco
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Sun Jan 18, 2004 10:25 am

Proud to be an Assyrian!
 
BN747
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Sun Jan 18, 2004 10:57 am

Okay Marco I did...
and except
"The Bible tells us that God created all of the land animals on the sixth day of creation. As dinosaurs were land animals, they must have been made on this day, alongside Adam and Eve, who were also created on Day Six (Genesis 1:24-31). If God designed and created dinosaurs, they would have been fully functional, designed to do what they were created for, and would have been 100% dinosaur. This fits exactly with the evidence from the fossil record."

YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING!

Just because this says this in the most elementary of terms...we are suppose so okay..that answers that! Let's examine this...

The Bible tells us that God created all of the land animals on the sixth day of creation. As dinosaurs were land animals, they must have been made on this day, alongside Adam and Eve, who were also created on Day Six (Genesis 1:24-31)

With that logic (or lack thereof), let's just say...since 'angels' have wings and fly....Seagulls are 'animal angels!' Did G. W. Bush write this stuff?

This is the kind of crap that sends kids down the path of becoming screwy! There's no biblical quotes of anykind to substantiate this..we are just left with 'so since dinos are land animals they, MUST have been made on the same day as you know who. If that's the best argument they can put forth....that website needs to become extinct..forthwith!

BN747


"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
Marco
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Sun Jan 18, 2004 10:59 am

As long as you refer to excerpts from the Bible as crap, I won't reply. I don't discuss things with people who aren't civil. When you decide to respect my beliefs, maybe then I'll answer you. Until then, stick to your arrogant know-it-all attitude.
Proud to be an Assyrian!
 
BN747
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Sun Jan 18, 2004 11:16 am

Marco

That wasn't and excerpt from the bible. That was rendered opinion from the author of the website. And the author of that website sounds liek Pat Robertson or nut job like him attempting to sway kids (who are intensly fascinated with dinosaurs) into believing his version of things it's maudlin and it's pandering! It's a dumbing down of kids in an age where kids have the ability to know more that generations preceding them. You are entitled to your beliefs and I respect that. But I don't have to agree with them. Nor you mine. But we are both free to comment on text outside of the bible (such as that website) (as on text in the bible) as we please. So take chill pill dood!

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
IMissPiedmont
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Sun Jan 18, 2004 12:19 pm

Here in Calgary on Elbow drive reads a sign next to a curch "Big bang theory, are you serouis?" I find this to be a huge joke. Of course the scientists who thought this up were serouis and its much more belivable then that someone built the earth in seven days.

OK, so most religious people limit God by the statement posted on the sign. And from my observation, most is an appropriate word.

However, most secular people limit God by taking what is written in the bible to be precise. It's not, at least in the old testament. (Note, this is my belief)

Just a question. What is a day to God? To you , me and all humans, it's the time one small insignificant rock takes to rotate 360 fegrees. To God it might well be 6 billion years. If you were God would you try explaining that concept to man of 6000 years ago?
The day you stop learning is the day you should die.
 
B2707SST
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Sun Jan 18, 2004 1:09 pm

I was station-surfing quite a few years ago and heard a bit of the Dr. Laura Show that floored me. The caller complained about the teaching of evolution in public schools and how it undermined the Biblical account of creation. Dr. Laura responded (paraphrasing) that she was free to believe what she liked, but anyone who argues that the scientific creation story is in fundamental conflict with the Biblical story places limits on the creativity of God.

I think many people agree with this: Steven Hawking recounts in "A Brief History of Time" how the Vatican seized on the Big Bang account of the creation and pronounced it in accordance with Scripture. The description of the creation of life is consistent with our understanding of evolutionary history (beginning in the sea, then animals, then birds, then humans).

There are certain contradictions inherent in the Bible, so I think one needs to be cautious in reading it as a literal history. For example, in the listing of days in Genesis, fish and sea life are created on the fourth day, birds and land animals on the fifth day, and Adam and Eve are created together on the sixth day. In the very next passage, which is very different in tone and perspective, Adam is created, then the animals are created for him to name, and then Eve is created from his rib. The sequencing is inconsistent, and if one wants to take the Bible literally, some hoop-jumping is in order.

My understanding is that the modern Bible was created during the Nicene Council in 325 AD, when certain books and stories were judged canonical and included, and some (such as the Gnostic gospels) were rejected. Now one can argue that the Holy Spirit was at work in the process and our modern Bible was "meant" to be in its current form, but for skeptics like myself, viewing the Bible as a completely integrated, seamless, and internally coherent text is problematic.

--B2707SST
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bobrayner
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Sun Jan 18, 2004 2:32 pm

The Old Testament (especially the Jewish law) talks about germ prevention, good crop science etc. Also, you are assuming that scientist are correct when they age the Earth (carbon dating is very flawed).

Germ prevention and agricultural science would not be unusual subjects in an entirely human-written book, in such a culture, would they?

Carbon dating is very flawed?
There plenty more isotope pairs to choose from; all those with a long enough lifetime (a few are only practical for short spans) agree that the earth is Very Old. (IE more than a few thousanf years). Are they all flawed? Evidence for this...?

Once you've debunked carbon dating (and all the other isotope pairs), you can move on to loess, marine sediments, ice cores, tree rings, hundreds of metres of limestone, &c.

There's a great deal of compelling evidence. Did god put it all there to fool gullible geologists and astonomers? Maybe the mountain ranges at tectonic plate borders serve some other purpose? (I don't remember seeing an era of hectic mountain-building in the bible).

As regards different types of baptism , that is really irrelevant

Irrelevant? Lots of xtians seem to think it's pretty important to do it the right way. Are you saying they're wrong?

It mentions a round Earth, it talks about dinosaurs (in Job for example)

It describes a large herbivore.

I have a feeling that if God told the people whom He inspired to write the Bible about other planets, they would've written it down but neither they nor anyone else would've understood what it meant

We could extend it from astronomy to countless other issues; did God edit the bible so it wouldn't contain anything too far beyond the understanding of contemporary yokels? (not unreasonable; the bible seems to omit most aspects of modern life). If so, then what relevance does it have today?

More and more of the scientific community are pointing towards a creator!

Who?

We usually do not find these craters on Earth. But many on other planets like Jupiter, Mercury, Saturn....

Craters on jupiter and saturn?

You can find craters on rocky planets and planetisimals. Earth is rocky; it has craters too. The problem is, we have various geological processes that gradually wear them down and/or mask them in other forms; we also have volcanism which provides plenty of false leads in the form of craters; 2/3 of impact sites are covered with liquid; and so on.

There are a few hundred known (ie large) impact sites on Earth. Most of these are in places that are relatively well-explored; there's little reason to doubt that other parts of the world have similar numbers.

For reference, even just a few hundred is much more than you'd expect if the earth's history was only x thousand years. Maybe god created these, too, to fool the astronomers.

This fits exactly with the evidence from the fossil record

No, it doesn't.

To God it might well be 6 billion years. If you were God would you try explaining that concept to man of 6000 years ago?

If that were the case, maybe he should have dictated "It took a really long time to create the world" instead of handing down something so thoroughly misleading. No? I presume that God's proofwriting and editorial skills should be greater than ours.

http://www.answersingenesis.com also blames evolutionism for communism, nazism, and columbine.
Cunning linguist
 
CanadianNorth
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Sun Jan 18, 2004 2:45 pm

The universe is a big place. There has to be something else out there. Maybe there smarter than us, maybe there a bunch of dumbfucks. Maybe there only a few planets away, maybe there trilliants of lightyears away. But there must be something.



CanadianNorth
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MD-90
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Sun Jan 18, 2004 3:40 pm

I rather think that the account in Job of the "thing" is a hippo, myself. Elephant almost fits but I think a hippo is more likely. The leviathan described later could almost be a whale but it's not, it's a crocodile.

Job does have some good stuff. Witness Job 38:4-12:

"Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.
Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?
On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone-
while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels shouted for joy?

"Who shut up the sea behind doors
when it burst forth from the womb,
when I made the clouds its garment
and wrapped it in thick darkness,
when I fixed limits for it
and set its doors and bars in place,
when I said, 'This far you may come and no farther;
here is where your proud waves halt'?

"Have you ever given orders to the morning,
or shown the dawn its place,
 
tokolosh
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Mon Jan 19, 2004 2:47 am

If God (whichever one it is!) were perfect, then why, as one of its creations, we humans are unable to live in harmony with ourselves and "our" planet?
Did the chicken or the egg get laid first?
 
GC
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Mon Jan 19, 2004 5:08 am

"If God (whichever one it is!) were perfect, then why, as one of its creations, we humans are unable to live in harmony with ourselves and "our" planet?"

That's easy, years ago (and ever since) we told God to get lost and that we could look after ourselves. He's just giving us what we want.
 
GC
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Mon Jan 19, 2004 5:18 am

I haven't seen many hippos or elephants with tales like cedar trees. Can anyone name me somehting other than a dinosaur with a tail of that description. Again, the non-creationist argument automatically assumes that science is correct. No one was around, it's all theory so it's all open for debate. Where is the evidence that dinsosaurs did NOT exist at the same time as man?
 
GC
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Mon Jan 19, 2004 5:21 am

 
bobrayner
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Mon Jan 19, 2004 5:55 am

No one was around, it's all theory so it's all open for debate. Where is the evidence that dinsosaurs did NOT exist at the same time as man?

Because radioisotope dating (which you think is flawed but have yet to explain why) consistently shows that all the dinosaur remains - even the youngest - are much older than human remains - even the oldest.

On a more pragmatic note, they're also (generally speaking) in deeper strata. Perhaps God created ninja worms to pull the dinosaur remains down through the k/t boundary and vast quanities of assorted rock, just so they would seem to be in an older location. Or maybe a few hundred metres of rock were Created during the brief period time that dinosaurs and humans coexisted - and the dinosaurs were buried whilst the humans climbed on top - for a similar mischievous purpose.
Cunning linguist
 
tokolosh
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Mon Jan 19, 2004 6:08 am

Gc,

"That's easy, years ago (and ever since) we told God to get lost and that we could look after ourselves. He's just giving us what we want."

But, if we were created in God's image, why did we then tell him to get lost? What I asked in #76 still stands.
Did the chicken or the egg get laid first?
 
SSTjumbo
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Mon Jan 19, 2004 8:07 am

But, if we were created in God's image, why did we then tell him to get lost? What I asked in #76 still stands.


According to belief, God gave us the greatest gift he could give us, free will, and we chose to abuse it. You could argue that God exercises free will, but since he's perfect in every way, he can never use it wrongly. We, on the other hand, are not God and are therefore subject to misuse of free will. Of course, there's a lot of other arguments out there, but that's one way of answering it.
I don't know, so this is my signature.
 
IMissPiedmont
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Mon Jan 19, 2004 12:32 pm

"My understanding is that the modern Bible was created during the Nicene Council in 325 AD, when certain books and stories were judged canonical and included, and some (such as the Gnostic gospels) were rejected."

This is not a mystery to biblical scholars. The question is why some refuse to accept this as fact.
====================
"If that were the case, maybe he should have dictated "It took a really long time to create the world" instead of handing down something so thoroughly misleading."

Do you presume to know what God told man? I hope not. As the bible was indeed written by man with no interference form God, one might consider that the bible is packed with metaphors, not explicit direction.
The day you stop learning is the day you should die.
 
ctbarnes
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Tue Jan 20, 2004 2:00 am

Getting back the original question, humans may fret about God if Martians are discovered, but I seriously doubt God would. After all, who's to say God didn't make Martians too....?

Charles, SJ
The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy
 
csavel
Posts: 1407
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Tue Jan 20, 2004 8:05 am

Don't think so, people who believe in God will find a reason to believe in her no matter what. Some peopl emay find this as proof of a sort of new agey quantum spiritus sancti.

The literalists will either have a hard time or interpret the Bible in a new way.
And yes, the Bible has been "interpreted" for millennia. The stories may be great moral allegories, indeed divinely inspired, but the are human works.
The Job dinosaur quote is an exaple of why this is true.

One of the problems with looking at a literal interpretation of the Bible is whose Bible are you going to literally interpret? It was Ancient Hebrew translated into Ancient Greek translated into Midieval English if you're talking King James version. So already the King James version (which is the one people are quoting from here) is three degrees separated from the original. Hebrew a Semitic language with a different grammar entirely from Greek. Greek and English - both Indo-European but also with different grammars. Not to mention that the original was probably copied from many sources and were retellings of ancient myths.

Since I know a bit of Hebrew I can tell you that Behemoth seems to me to be from the Hebrew Behema (plural is Behemot which would be Behemoth in Ancient Hebrew) What does Behema mean? Buffalo!!! A bit different from a dinosaur. Maybe it meant something else in ancient Hebrew, maybe it didn't. I have no idea how many buffaloes were roaming around in ancient Palestine. But ancient pastoralists from a semi-arid country who came into contact with a buffalo would've been awed. They are larger and meaner. Their tails do go round and round and poetically can be seen to sway like a cedar.

So that Job quote could really read
""Look at the water buffalo, which I made along with you and which feed on grass like an ox.""

Interestingly, Behema is also a slang word for a big loud slob. The Peace Now people in Tel Aviv probably call Ariel Sharon "Behema" every day.

Next biblical linguistics lesson is the difference between Alma and Betulah (Hint one is a virgin and one doesn't necessarily have to be and how Leviathan derives from the Hebrew Lev'atan which is whale.
I may be ugly. I may be an American. But don't call me an ugly American.
 
bobrayner
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Thu Jan 22, 2004 10:35 am

Do you presume to know what God told man? I hope not. As the bible was indeed written by man with no interference form God, one might consider that the bible is packed with metaphors, not explicit direction.

Well, none of the bible is actually labeled with "This chapter is definite fact", "This chapter is just folk-poetry, don't worry about it too much", "This chapter is allegorical", and "This chapter uses a little poetic license".

If the bible says that it took x days to create the earth, then we have to assume that that's what God wanted to tell us, barring suggestions to the contrary, no?

According to belief, God gave us the greatest gift he could give us, free will, and we chose to abuse it.

How can we have free will with respect to an omniscient entity that not only created us and our surroundings, but also the physical laws which every part of us follows from moment to moment?  Big grin
Cunning linguist
 
IMissPiedmont
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Thu Jan 22, 2004 12:48 pm

No Bobrayner, to this, "If the bible says that it took x days to create the earth, then we have to assume that that's what God wanted to tell us, barring suggestions to the contrary, no?"

You really do not choose to say that everything in the Bible, and I mean everything, is literal fact. Do you? Think about it as a christian before answering please. And when you disagree, read a bit more.

Thanks
The day you stop learning is the day you should die.
 
windshear
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Thu Jan 22, 2004 5:51 pm

How can God be threatened if It created the entire universe?

According to the holy Kabbalah, the reason religious people worry about progress and science, is because they take the bible litterally, the old testement is pure poetry and symbols.

Abraham said that the universe and all that is to come from the universe is made and always will be, made of the same letters and matter, DNA and Atoms...

He said that 4000 years ago! So no God is not at threat, hopefully we will simply learn to understand what this "game" is about, how all things are driven by the same pattern. Actually there are astro physicics who say that there are similarities between our conciousness and the way and behavior of the universe...

Holy stories are just that, messengers of knowledge and tools of life, not laws or litteral obediance, otherwise they would not survive time and culture...

And thus God can never be at threat to any form of science, because the only thing science will reveal is that there IS a connection a source of all things living...Light...

Boaz...
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
GC
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Thu Jan 22, 2004 7:53 pm

"Since I know a bit of Hebrew I can tell you that Behemoth seems to me to be from the Hebrew Behema (plural is Behemot which would be Behemoth in Ancient Hebrew) What does Behema mean? Buffalo!!! A bit different from a dinosaur. Maybe it meant something else in ancient Hebrew, maybe it didn't. I have no idea how many buffaloes were roaming around in ancient Palestine. But ancient pastoralists from a semi-arid country who came into contact with a buffalo would've been awed. They are larger and meaner. Their tails do go round and round and poetically can be seen to sway like a cedar."

I don't think you can equate a buffalo's tail to a cedar tree Big grin, that would be one strange looking buffalo!!

Also, what about the Leviathan mentioned in Job??

Job 41
1 "Can you pull in the leviathan [1] with a fishhook
or tie down his tongue with a rope?
2 Can you put a cord through his nose
or pierce his jaw with a hook?
3 Will he keep begging you for mercy?
Will he speak to you with gentle words?
4 Will he make an agreement with you
for you to take him as your slave for life?
5 Can you make a pet of him like a bird
or put him on a leash for your girls?
6 Will traders barter for him?
Will they divide him up among the merchants?
7 Can you fill his hide with harpoons
or his head with fishing spears?
8 If you lay a hand on him,
you will remember the struggle and never do it again!
9 Any hope of subduing him is false;
the mere sight of him is overpowering.
10 No one is fierce enough to rouse him.
Who then is able to stand against me?
11 Who has a claim against me that I must pay?
Everything under heaven belongs to me.

12 "I will not fail to speak of his limbs,
his strength and his graceful form.
13 Who can strip off his outer coat?
Who would approach him with a bridle?
14 Who dares open the doors of his mouth,
ringed about with his fearsome teeth?
15 His back has [2] rows of shields
tightly sealed together;
16 each is so close to the next
that no air can pass between.
17 They are joined fast to one another;
they cling together and cannot be parted.
18 His snorting throws out flashes of light;
his eyes are like the rays of dawn.
19 Firebrands stream from his mouth;
sparks of fire shoot out.
20 Smoke pours from his nostrils
as from a boiling pot over a fire of reeds.
21 His breath sets coals ablaze,
and flames dart from his mouth.
22 Strength resides in his neck;
dismay goes before him.
23 The folds of his flesh are tightly joined;
they are firm and immovable.
24 His chest is hard as rock,
hard as a lower millstone.
25 When he rises up, the mighty are terrified;
they retreat before his thrashing.
26 The sword that reaches him has no effect,
nor does the spear or the dart or the javelin.
27 Iron he treats like straw
and bronze like rotten wood.
28 Arrows do not make him flee;
slingstones are like chaff to him.
29 A club seems to him but a piece of straw;
he laughs at the rattling of the lance.
30 His undersides are jagged potsherds,
leaving a trail in the mud like a threshing sledge.
31 He makes the depths churn like a boiling caldron
and stirs up the sea like a pot of ointment.
32 Behind him he leaves a glistening wake;
one would think the deep had white hair.
33 Nothing on earth is his equal-
a creature without fear.
34 He looks down on all that are haughty;
he is king over all that are proud."

Don't tell me he's a large salmon!!! Big grin
 
bobrayner
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Thu Jan 22, 2004 9:54 pm

You really do not choose to say that everything in the Bible, and I mean everything, is literal fact. Do you? Think about it as a christian before answering please. And when you disagree, read a bit more.

Indeed; I wouldn't advise literal interpretation of everything.
However, a number of days is pretty unambiguous, isn't it?
Cunning linguist
 
windshear
Posts: 2268
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2000 4:45 pm

RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Thu Jan 22, 2004 10:19 pm

Gc it was not acient Palestine, but Judea and Israel!

Also I am not sure about the word in Hebrew...

Surely there can not be anything to fear, if there is a creator he is the creator of the building blocks of life, DNA and atoms not us!
We are the product of evolution, and the driving force of life, originates from the tiny pilot light that we receive from the creator, this light makes life struggle to go on...

There for things evolve. The driving force is been so strong that we finally came to life through time and evolution, we have the ability to know and create, but also to ignore and destroy.

People still belive that there was nothing before Adam and Eve, that part is true...Or is it?
We only know that Adam and Eve are the first to be created, but Adam and Eve are not people, they were the two energies that existed receiving the positive light from God...

So when the world was created was the time that Adam and Eve said stop to God, and then there was the Big Bang...

We are here to strive for fulfilment, not given by God but created by our selves and shared with the Creator...

We are all connected, call it the will to survive, intuition, reflexes or power of the mind, but all matters living share similar driving forces, even stars and galaxies...

There for LIfe on other planets or evolution is NOT blasphemy its the natural strive for the fulfilment we so desperately crave...Ants, humans, whales, moons atoms all react and cause, but we as humans must strive to be proactive instead of just creations (cause and effect).

To anyone who might be interested...This wisdom is old, and it needs to get out of its hiding, transcending religion and culture, this tool for fulfilment is vital to our life and planet!

Kabbalah is the word, if any of you are thinking, what a crack head or what an interesting viewpoint...

It really appeals to your question mbj-11!

Boaz...
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
csavel
Posts: 1407
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Fri Jan 23, 2004 12:19 am

Hey GC

Good reply!
To me the tail sways like a cedar was allegorical, sort of conveying power and movement. Sort of like I would say on a windy day. "I was tossed around like a piece of paper." Also Leviathan derives from the Hebrew for whale, not salmon. So the Leviathan in Job is no salmon, farm-raised or wild.

My point was not to diss the Bible. Just to point out that since humans are fallable and imperfect as is human language as a communications system, it is, to me, difficult if not impossible, to claim that the Bible or anything else is the absolute inerrant word of God. Once you translate it, or once the language changes as languages do, it is errant. This doesn't mean that the stories don't contain important moral precepts or hidden allegorical or "cosmic truths." Look at the Lilies of the field passage. I don't take it literally, nor am I 100% convinced that there is a God, but to me, if that isn't a call to appreciate and cherish nature, then I don't know what is. Not a literal truth, but a deeper spritual "truth."

Given that, then I don't think life on Mars will affect most people's religions because the religions sacred texts can be taken in ways that will accept this. IT could be seen as more proof of God's handiwork.

csavel
I may be ugly. I may be an American. But don't call me an ugly American.
 
GC
Posts: 348
Joined: Wed Feb 05, 2003 6:03 am

RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Fri Jan 23, 2004 3:40 am

"People still belive that there was nothing before Adam and Eve, that part is true...Or is it?
We only know that Adam and Eve are the first to be created, but Adam and Eve are not people, they were the two energies that existed receiving the positive light from God..."


Um...yeah, ok. That really doesn't sit right with me. But each to their own.


On a serious note, geneologists have started to point towards a common female ancestor from Africa or Mid-East as the "mother" of modern man. I found that interesting.
 
bobrayner
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Fri Jan 23, 2004 7:18 am

On a serious note, geneologists have started to point towards a common female ancestor from Africa or Mid-East as the "mother" of modern man. I found that interesting.

They also point to her living many thousands of years before conventional Biblical chronology. Maybe you didn't find that interesting.
Cunning linguist
 
BN747
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Fri Jan 23, 2004 7:39 am

"Holy stories are just that, messengers of knowledge and tools of life, not laws or litteral obediance, otherwise they would not survive time and culture...

Agreed...



.....He said that 4000 years ago! So no God is not at threat, hopefully we will simply learn to understand what this "game" is about, how all things are driven by the same pattern. Actually there are astro physicics who say that there are similarities between our conciousness and the way and behavior of the universe...

The astrophysicist have it right..because are nothing more than a by-product of the universe. Hubris and extreme arrogance tells us we are something special..and in our world, we are. And that is all precipitated by being atop of the food chain. Have we always been? No. Will we always be? No.

It won't take much to take us down, esp. with the possibility of us taking ourselves down 1st. Think about it...remember that last stomach or flu virus that brought you to your knees...and made you say 'kill me now and get it over with!' That's how vulnerable we are..something so miniscule so small we cannot even see...has the ability to bring us to our knees. This is no curse or plague from god, it is also a by-product of the universe. It isn't ailing you personally (meaning it's not a virus that came after you because you're Joe Smith)...it's biological sub-atomic creature just doing it's thing. And in the future there will be others. Some we create and some nature creates...that is the game. After we're gone..that's it! Something else will take our place and there very well may be nothing left to show we were even here at all.


BN747



"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
deltaownsall
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Fri Jan 23, 2004 12:32 pm

Just to point out that since humans are fallable and imperfect as is human language as a communications system, it is, to me, difficult if not impossible, to claim that the Bible or anything else is the absolute inerrant word of God. Once you translate it, or once the language changes as languages do, it is errant. This doesn't mean that the stories don't contain important moral precepts or hidden allegorical or "cosmic truths."

Very well said  Big thumbs up Exactly my opinion on this: the Bible doesn't necessarily have anything to do with God, so even if life is found on other planets, it would in no way disprove the existence of God.
 
GC
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Fri Jan 23, 2004 6:48 pm

"They also point to her living many thousands of years before conventional Biblical chronology. Maybe you didn't find that interesting."

Actually I do. Even though I'm a Christian, I'm open to debate and study. If the biblical chronology is proved wrong then so be it, but the "secular" chronology is also open to debate and scrutiny. There are some gaping holes in their theories which I'll be happyto expand on when I have more time.
 
BN747
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Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 5:48 am

RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Fri Jan 23, 2004 7:01 pm

Very true GC. That's what becoming your 'own' person is all about. It's not about being what someone else wants you to be, or what someone else think's you be. It's about seeking, finding as much as you can and concluding and deciding for yourself. And most importantly, even then, such deciding factors themselves are always subject to review and renewed positioning, rethinking and or disposal. There are many times I thought understood everything about an issue or situation..only to continuously find out that's not the case at all. But that's one of the greatest things about life..life's learning curve, it's ever changing shape is continuously on the move. What a bore if would be if it (and all it's answers) were nicely wrapped in a neat package on a shelf... for everyone's taking.

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
windshear
Posts: 2268
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RE: If Life On Mars-is God In Jeopardy?

Fri Jan 23, 2004 8:28 pm

Adam and Eve are just codes to the masculine and feminine energies that were before The Big Bang...What you are thinking of, garden of Eden and so on are the later symbolic tellings of the Kabbalistic tellings...

That is what I was trying to say. Kabbalah actually is the old testament in symbolic form...
Kabbalah or the origin of the of the old testament, has more in common with modern day science than the conservative and often litteral interpretations of the old testament, this is words of the the Kabbalists...Knowledge that lead to the writting of the old testament, they explain what the theme is in the old testament, and also the fall from Eden...

There for BN747 you are right!
Nothing in Kabbalah speaks against evolution and progress of man...Man is at a higher spiritual awareness level than the ant, but the ant is also at a higher spiritual level than a rock, but we all are composed by the same formula...Letters...DNA or atoms...Same rules apply for stars as for us...
A rock contains many different molecules and materials that make up the rock, we have DNA...All is the aleph Beth...
The alpabet of life...

That is my point, if something else will rise after us so what? We are all connected and are all built from the same laws of letters...

Also the Kabbalah speaks not of time..."They also point to her living many thousands of years before conventional Biblical chronology. Maybe you didn't find that interesting."
God made the universe in 6 days??? How can the creator of all things create something in 6 days before time began???
Again the Kabbalah is written in symbolic language that is the old testament, 6 dimensions are created and compressed into one, as the modern day superstring theories also tell us, 10 in all but 6 are compressed into 1 dimension...

Again just to explain the symbolic language in which the old testament was written...
Boaz...
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman

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