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BN747
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RE: Religion Question

Mon Jan 19, 2004 12:11 pm

MD-90 thx for the 'Guide to Heaven' link.

They want me to buy the book..which isn't gonna happen. But they do lend this insight of an excerpt.

" Heaven is a tangible place, believes DeStefano, and at least part of it will be a transformed new earth. People will have their own recognizable bodies, only perfected. DeStefano tackles tough questions about heaven, including the role of angels, the measurement of time, marriages and whether pets will be there ("Of course!"). Fears of boredom are dispelled with his depictions of possible activities ("How about a tour of the Andromeda galaxy?") and creative work ("Books will be written and read, public structures will be built and utilized"). However, he writes that nothing will compare with the thrill of meeting God, the source of true happiness."

Heaven is a tangible place...

Okay..then where is it?

"at least part of it will be a transformed new earth.

Uh huh.....sure!

"People will have their own recognizable bodies, only perfected."

What the hell does this mean. Here on oirth (earth) perfected bodies are the ones seen in gyms and infomercials (and I like mine cuz I worked hard to develope it..it didn come like this). Plus earthly beauty is a vanity borne of hubris and is in a state of constant change. During the Renaissance the 'rebenesque chunky' type of woman was considered 'beautiful or perfect. Today they are considered fat chix! A beautiful women today would have been considered ill back that because they'd be deem too skinny! But anyway I want to know their definition of perfect..because a lot people won't be happy with having their same bodies. A black, brown,red,yellow, white person my not want to be black, brown,red,yellow or white in heaven!

"The measurement of time, marriages and whether pets will be there ("Of course!")

This is ridiculous and the ultimate of human arrogance....now a hamster or a dog gets to look forward to being a hamster or dog forever?

How about a tour of the Andromeda galaxy?")

Will this be aboard an air-conditioned bus or space ship?

"and creative work ("Books will be written and read, public structures will be built and utilized"

Someone's gonna have to punch a time card to go and built these things? Who's gonna built these structures? This is really far fetched stuff! Someone really went off the deep end stirring up this stew! I'm surprised you can't have your car in heaven. Who thought of this stuff? I wish I had the time to write a book about what to expect in heaven...problem is....I'd feel guilty about taking people's money!

BN747

"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
sleekjet
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RE: Religion Question

Mon Jan 19, 2004 1:45 pm

Why worry about where heaven is? I Cor. 1 talks about how the wisdom of God is deemed foolish by man. God leaves a lot of things unexplained....for the simple reason he wants us to exercise faith.
II Cor. 4:17-18
 
bravo45
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RE: Religion Question

Mon Jan 19, 2004 2:25 pm

Yeah right. It has had things added to it and subtracted from it by many clerics over the years.

The Bible has withstood the test of time. There are some slight variations, however.


You COULDN"T HAVE BEEN more wrong in 100 lives pal.

The slightest variations means "changed". Quran IS IN ITS ORIGINAL FORM and will remain so. Stop kidding yourself.

Advancedkid, why is it alright for Muslims to say that Bible has been changed while the Koran has remained error free? Are we supposed to shut up and not defend ourselves?
Marco, Its not about defending, its all about realizing and understanding the truth. Islam says that the purpose of the revelation of Quran was the changings in Bible over the time. Making its followers stray the path of truth. the Quran came as a pure source to remain pure and a guide to the same path that the Bible was showing before it was changed.

Have you figured out what the Hadiths are about? Should you or shouldn't you follow them? Because the whole Muslim world seems to be pretty confused.
What do you mean by this?
 
MD-90
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RE: Religion Question

Mon Jan 19, 2004 2:46 pm

BN747, why don't you go to your bookstore and leaf through the book before you pass judgement on it, hmmm?

I personally have put verses from the Sura on this forum and I've had other Muslim users disagree with me because the same words apparently weren't in their version of the Koran.
 
Marco
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RE: Religion Question

Mon Jan 19, 2004 4:47 pm

Marco, Its not about defending, its all about realizing and understanding the truth. Islam says that the purpose of the revelation of Quran was the changings in Bible over the time. Making its followers stray the path of truth. the Quran came as a pure source to remain pure and a guide to the same path that the Bible was showing before it was changed

The Bible makes it very clear that anything after it is not the word of God. The Koran means nothing to me as a Christian. I respect your right to believe in it, but please don't try to "enlighten" me.
Proud to be an Assyrian!
 
GC
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Joined: Wed Feb 05, 2003 6:03 am

RE: Religion Question

Mon Jan 19, 2004 11:22 pm

"1 Timothy 1
17Glory and honor to God forever and ever. He is the eternal King, the unseen one who never dies; he alone is God. Amen."

That's the point! In order for God to take his place as a self sacrifice for mankind he had to become fully human as well as fully divine. But he (Jesus) chose to limit (as the incarnation) his own ability and knwoledge. If he' paraded around Palestine doing a NEO and flying around fighting everybody it may have made for amore exciting movie in Jesus of Nazareth, but how could he claim to relate to everyday people if he wasn't limited while in human form?? Think!!

"Gc, actually if the teachings of James and others who had personally known Jesus at the time had prevailed, you'd find yourself probably still observing Kosher dietery laws and studying Torah.

I believe you can find that in your books: Acts 2:46, 3:1, 10:14 15:1, 21:24, and Galatians 2:12.

However, Paul's ideas have prevailed in Christianity and rather than following the law set forth in the Torah, blind faith has been deemed the only way to piety."

Actually it was PETER (friend of Jesus) who had the vision from God which changed the teaching on whether gentiles had to follow the kosher laws or not.
(Acts Chapter 10). You referenced vrse 14 which is actually part of the story where God tells Peter NOT to call the food unclean. Did you actually read the verses surrounding to get it in context or just cut and paste the references from someone else. Big grin

Also Jesus himself, in criticising the legalistic but cold-hearted pharisees, said,

(matthew chapter 15)
" Listen and understand, what goes into a man's mouth does not make him unclean..."
"Are you so dull? Don't you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart and these make a man unclean".

The difference is the Pharisees (the ones he was addressing) thought that as long as followed the law you were fine, but Jesus illustrates it's all about your heart, not your outward appearance! However I'll admit that some Christians today, still haven't grasped this.


 
BN747
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RE: Religion Question

Tue Jan 20, 2004 7:24 am

"Why worry about where heaven is? "

Well if you're gonna stake your whole life on somthing...I'd say I can't think of a bigger concern to worry about! It's like you're aboard a ship and flew to a place you knew was there (and need that place to be there in order to refuel to continue or to start a life there...) only to get there....and find it doesn't exist!

Talk about about being up the creek!

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
jessman
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RE: Religion Question

Tue Jan 20, 2004 8:01 am

Heaven could very well be a purely spiritual place, that exists outside the boundaries of the physical realm. Maybe God hasn't made it yet. There will aso be a new heaven and a new earth with no need for the sun, moon, or stars. We believe God made everything from nothing. It is not a stretch for us to believe that he can do what the Bible said he would do. If he says he's gone to prepare a place for us, he's making the place. I don't care where it is.

When a scientist solved Einstein's equations in a different way and discovered Black Holes mathematically, they only existed on his paper. Scientists and astronomers were skeptical for quite some time after they were discovered, and some were skeptical until telescopes found very convincing evidence.
 
SSTjumbo
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RE: Religion Question

Tue Jan 20, 2004 9:12 am

There will aso be a new heaven and a new earth with no need for the sun, moon, or stars. We believe God made everything from nothing. It is not a stretch for us to believe that he can do what the Bible said he would do.


There's also some little thing in Quantum Physics that actually states that it's possible for mind to perceive something into reality, something to do with waves or some weird thing like that. I'm not sure if it's been proven, but it could be scientific evidence (not necessarily proof) of God's existence. I'll see if I can dig it up.
I don't know, so this is my signature.
 
AnsettAW
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RE: Religion Question

Tue Jan 20, 2004 10:57 am

Well if you're gonna stake your whole life on somthing...I'd say I can't think of a bigger concern to worry about! It's like you're aboard a ship and flew to a place you knew was there (and need that place to be there in order to refuel to continue or to start a life there...) only to get there....and find it doesn't exist!

Talk about about being up the creek!


Well, if it doesn't, it doesn't, right? But if it does, than that's when we're up the creek. There's nothing to lose. Have you heard of Pascal's Wager? Wagering for God superdominates wagering against God. In other words, the worst outcome associated with wagering for God (or heaven, in this case) is at least as good as the best outcome associated with wagering against God (or heaven). If God and heaven do exist, than the result of wagering for God is better than the result of wagering against God. Pascal concludes that rationality requires you to wager for God.

I think heaven is being in the presence of God. It's ineffable -- we can't comprehend it because it's beyond human description. The same with hell. Forget fire and pitchforks and all that. It's just spiritual separation from God. If someone rejected God in the here and now, why would they want to spend eternity in his presence? That's just my take on it.

Snap, Krackle, and Pop are thinly veiled emblems for the Trilateral Commission.
 
airmale
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RE: Religion Question

Tue Jan 20, 2004 8:45 pm

Marco I know you're anti-Muslim/Islam but please respect our book when referring to it, we do not follow the Bible and Torah but consider both honourable despite their being changed, because they still do contain God's message.
.....up there with the best!
 
AC320
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RE: Religion Question

Tue Jan 20, 2004 10:26 pm

The Torah was changed? As far as I know each new one has to be an exact copy, not so much as a single letter can be misplaced...
fuddle duddle
 
Marco
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RE: Religion Question

Wed Jan 21, 2004 12:08 am

Airmale,

I'm not anti-Islam. I just don't believe in the Koran or in Islam. I respect it as a religion, but that doesn't mean I have to believe in it. Get over the anti-Islam paranoia.
Proud to be an Assyrian!
 
GC
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RE: Religion Question

Wed Jan 21, 2004 2:09 am

"Marco I know you're anti-Muslim/Islam but please respect our book when referring to it, we do not follow the Bible and Torah but consider both honourable despite their being changed, because they still do contain God's message."

They fundamentally contradict each other so you can't say that they BOTH contain God's message, it's just which one you believe in. It's not an anti-Islam issue, it's just do believe in the Judeo Christian God or the Islamic one.

regarding the fact that the Islamic holy book hasn't been changes, I'd be interested to know your thoughts on the following.

http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Text/index.html
 
Marco
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RE: Religion Question

Wed Jan 21, 2004 2:26 am

Answering-Islam.org is a great website with lots of resources. Airmale, I urge you to check it out.
Proud to be an Assyrian!
 
advancedkid
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RE: Religion Question

Wed Jan 21, 2004 2:44 am

Gc,
Even though, one always speaks of a Judeo-Christian Faith/G-d, fact is that Jewish and Christian beliefs are
still fundamentally different.
Islam has many things in common with the Jewish
faith, more than you think.
I think Muslims have a very valid point, they don't
say the Bible isn't G-d's word, but say that it is
in originality. Most of us on the other hand, would say
the Quran can not at all be the word of the Almighty, without even knowing what's in it!
Any thoughts in this?

Regards,

Advanced

 
bravo45
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RE: Religion Question

Wed Jan 21, 2004 4:16 am

......but please don't try to "enlighten" me.
Its not to "enlighten" you, its an explaination to your question.

The Bible makes it very clear that anything after it is not the word of God. The Koran means nothing to me as a Christian.
Where as Bible is no longer in its original form.
I respect your right to believe in it,
So do I.

I personally have put verses from the Sura on this forum and I've had other Muslim users disagree with me because the same words apparently weren't in their version of the Koran.
I don't even know whay I am answering you, but the only way this might have happened could be you stating from your own version of Quran. Nice try but there is only one undisputed Quran.


As for your answering Quran website, nice to read the things you would like to read whether true or not for people like you who don't have ANY knowledge of Islam or Quran, I don't mind you remaining indulged in it, coz if you aren't blessed I can't help but know it: Its fabricated stuff.
Pick any 2 copies of Quran and tell me any difference EXCEPT printing errors and except copies of those like you yourself. THERE ARE NO COPIES OF QURAN NAMED AFTER PEOPLE OR ANYONE. Its "Quran" which means the book which is read (don't know the exact translation), words of Allah Himself. You can at the most end up printing a "your" version of it for your argument, but you CANNOT make anyone wonder what is in the real Quran, its tooo common to be changed, its thoroughly memorized by millions, read by millions every day. The Quran is THE MOST READ BOOK in the world today. I wonder all those who read it haven't been able to find any difference, while you know it all.
 
Marco
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RE: Religion Question

Wed Jan 21, 2004 4:35 am

Where as Bible is no longer in its original form.

Actually the KJV is pretty much unchanghed from the original form. Also, as an Assyrian from Iraq my family is able to read the Bible in Aramiac. To me, the Koran means nothing.
Proud to be an Assyrian!
 
MD-90
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RE: Religion Question

Wed Jan 21, 2004 4:47 am

What do you mean, nice try? Another guy quoted some verses, I searched for an online Quran, and the one that I found didn't match what he said were in his Quran. Obviously that means that there are different versions of the Quran.

I freely acknowledge that there are different versions of the Bible. I personally believe that only the King James is 100% accurate in English. I don't trust the Catholic Bible, the NIV, NASB, RSV, the NKJ, etc, not only because they're based on a mere 45 manuscripts while the King James was translated from 5,321 manuscripts that massively agree. The Apocrypha and the "lost books of the Bible" that people have claimed that the church suppressed were simply not considered to be proveably accurate.

Advancedkid, you have a popular argument. There are a lot of Christians today who claim that there once was a perfect Bible in Aramic and Greek, but that it doesn't exist anymore and has been lost. Ergo, they simply will not admit that the Bible today (the Authorized Version, the King James) is perfect. There are a lot of Christians that believe that.
 
bravo45
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RE: Religion Question

Wed Jan 21, 2004 4:48 am

Actually the KJV is pretty much unchanghed from the original form.
"Pretty much" is NO gurantee so as to what extent. And since there was only ONE true Bible, the fact that there are so many now, advocates the fact that none is reliable.
To me, the Koran means nothing.
Have it your way. The truth sure is otherwise.
 
bravo45
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RE: Religion Question

Wed Jan 21, 2004 4:51 am

Another guy quoted some verses, I searched for an online Quran
With the sources that you rely on, I am neither surprised, nor convinced. BTW can you post that link or tell me about the verses?
 
Marco
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RE: Religion Question

Wed Jan 21, 2004 4:57 am

Have it your way. The truth sure is otherwise

Did God actually reveal that to you?

 Insane

The KJV is the best translation we have today. In addition my family reads the Bible in its original language (which you conveniently ignored). I don't even consider the Koran as the word of God. You may do, and its your prerogative, but to me, there's no continuation of the Bible.
Proud to be an Assyrian!
 
MD-90
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RE: Religion Question

Wed Jan 21, 2004 5:02 am

http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/quran/ was my source.

Sorry I don't remember the specific Suras. We were discussing whether the Quran required Muslims to cause the infidels (all non-Muslims) to either submit and pay tribute to Muslims or be conquered.
 
jaysit
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RE: Religion Question

Wed Jan 21, 2004 5:03 am

"The Bible makes it very clear that anything after it is not the word of God."

How convenient.

A clause that everyone from the Apostles to the Swami Gimmeyodollarlingam seems to put just above the dotted line where you sign on for the ride.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
bravo45
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RE: Religion Question

Wed Jan 21, 2004 5:05 am

Did God actually reveal that to you?
Allah revealed it to the ENTIRE HUMANITY through Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W.W), Pal.
Relatively few understood and believed.
 
Marco
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RE: Religion Question

Wed Jan 21, 2004 5:07 am

These are my beliefs. I don't believe in the Koran but at the same time I don't shove my beliefs onto anyone. What you think of that Jaysit, doesn't really matter to me or bother me.
Proud to be an Assyrian!
 
Marco
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RE: Religion Question

Wed Jan 21, 2004 5:08 am

Allah revealed it to the ENTIRE HUMANITY through Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W.W), Pal.
Relatively few understood and believed.


Oh brother...like I said don't try to enlighten me. I know the Koran very well, and I choose to not believe in it. Do you understand what I'm saying Bravo45?
Proud to be an Assyrian!
 
bravo45
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RE: Religion Question

Wed Jan 21, 2004 5:13 am

Sorry I don't remember the specific Suras. We were discussing whether....
Until you can put up an example, No one would be able to clear it up. But remember, there are NO "versions" of Quran.
 
MD-90
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RE: Religion Question

Wed Jan 21, 2004 5:17 am

I'm not worried about clearing it up. Either someone made numerous mistakes and didn't have an accurate Quran, or there are differences between various ones.
 
GC
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RE: Religion Question

Wed Jan 21, 2004 5:19 am

"I think Muslims have a very valid point, they don't
say the Bible isn't G-d's word, but say that it is
in originality. "

You're not making sense. Muslims don't believe that God made himself human to suffer and die as the ultimate sacrifice to save us from ourselves, then rise again. Jesus (a jew) said that he "fulfilled the law", in other words no human could follow the standard that the law required without faltering, with the exception of Jesus. Jesus bridged the gap!

As regards the bible, although there are some grammatical differences in some of the less accurate translations, the fundemamentals are all the same. Otherwise it wouldn't be accepted by the Christian commmunity. We know, as Christians, that "The Message" is an easy to read paraphrase, whilst the KJV is more accurate, and take this into account whilst reading (hence all the footnotes and crossrefernces so that nothing is missed. Also we are encouraged to look at the original language (Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic) as well as context and thru cultural and historical "lenses". Finally as Christians we ask the Holy Spirit to guide us as we read so that we can try to understand. We don't take it all at face value and we do investigate. That's how the orthodox Christian theology was dvelpoed. through study, research, debate and prayer!
 
AC320
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Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 11:29 pm

RE: Religion Question

Wed Jan 21, 2004 6:49 am

Airmale, going to answer me on how the Torah was "changed"?
fuddle duddle
 
advancedkid
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RE: Religion Question

Wed Jan 21, 2004 8:51 pm

Gc,
Doubting the authenticity of the Bible isn't
only a Muslim notion. This idea actually stems
from within the Bible itself.

-There are several verses in the Bible that contradict
when put side by side, even in the KJB-version.
Someone has shown some examples to this earlier
in this thread.

-Not all Christians believe the doctrines you
just mentioned. Okay, you'd call these cults.
Nevertheless, they honestly believe they are
devotfull believers and seekers of truth. I for one,
will not undermine them.

-The Jewish faith as we know it doesn't
in any way support the idea that G-d Almighty
will have three forms and come down to earth
to save us by way of death on a cross. According
to Jewish faith this is blasphemy. This is the mostly
the reason why they won't take the NT as G-d's
word. Did they misunderstand the OT? Can't
ever say no to this.

- Seems the Muslims generally agree with the
Jewish faith on many points even though
both parties read "different" Holy Scirptures.

Isn't this somewhat funny, or what?

Regrads


Advanced

 
UTA_flyinghigh
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RE: Religion Question

Wed Jan 21, 2004 9:28 pm


Fly to live, live to fly - Air France/KLM Flying Blue Platinum, BMI Diamond Club Gold, Emirates Skywards
 
GC
Posts: 348
Joined: Wed Feb 05, 2003 6:03 am

RE: Religion Question

Wed Jan 21, 2004 9:29 pm

"-There are several verses in the Bible that contradict
when put side by side, even in the KJB-version.
Someone has shown some examples to this earlier
in this thread."

Give me an example where the fundamental doctrine is contradictory (you can even use two translations if you like)

"-Not all Christians believe the doctrines you
just mentioned. Okay, you'd call these cults.
Nevertheless, they honestly believe they are
devotfull believers and seekers of truth. I for one,
will not undermine them. "

For the sake of argument I could honestly come to the conclusion that gravity doesn't exist, but if I jumped off a cliff, I'd soon find out that it does. Your argument supposes that there is no absolute truth, very post-modern, but only based on assumptions.

The New Testament (including Jesus himself) refers constantly to the Old Testament or Torah to validate itself. Don't forget Jesus was a Jew and it was important to him to prove to the Jews he was who he said he was. Some Jews have believed him and become Christians, some are still waiting for their idea of the messiah. When Jesus came the Jewish people were expecting a messiah like King David who would use military force to drive out. When he turned out to be like the messiah prophesied in Isaiah, he was ejected (as prophesied in the old testament too.)


Some OT descriptions of Jesus:

Who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed? He grew up before him like a tender shoot, and like a root out of dry ground. He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him, nothing in his appearance that we should desire him. He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted. (Isa. 53:1-4).

He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth. By oppression and judgment he was taken away. And who can speak of his descendants? For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was stricken. He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth. (Isa. 53:7-9).


" Seems the Muslims generally agree with the
Jewish faith on many points even though
both parties read "different" Holy Scirptures.

"

There was a time when some Jews (sadducees) didn't believe in life after death, whereas some (pharisees) did. They still read the same Torah.

Some quotes from Jesus:

* "You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life" (John 5:39-40).

* "If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?" (John 5:46-47).

* "Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him, and he began by saying to them, 'Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing'" (Luke 4:20-21).

 
AC320
Posts: 2809
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 11:29 pm

RE: Religion Question

Wed Jan 21, 2004 11:28 pm

The Jewish Messiah will:

Be a descendent of King David
Gain sovereignty over Israel
Gather the Jews from all the Earth
Restore full observance of Torah Law
Usher in world peace

Sorry but I simply see Jesus as one of many Jews to erroneously claim the title "Messiah". I just read through Isaiah, and saw nothing to suggest otherwise.

Interestingly, the Reform movement of Judaism has but forth the idea that there will not be a single messiah, but that combined human effort will bring about a messianic age. Just an idea.
fuddle duddle
 
GC
Posts: 348
Joined: Wed Feb 05, 2003 6:03 am

RE: Religion Question

Thu Jan 22, 2004 5:32 am

Jesus, was a descendant of David (here it is in black and white)

Matthew Chapter 1

1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

2 Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren;



3 And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Thamar; and Phares begat Esrom; and Esrom begat Aram;

4 And Aram begat Aminadab; and Aminadab begat Naasson; and Naasson begat Salmon;

5 And Salmon begat Booz of Rachab; and Booz begat Obed of Ruth; and Obed begat Jesse;



6 And Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her that had been the wife of Urias;

7 And Solomon begat Roboam; and Roboam begat Abia; and Abia begat Asa;



8 And Asa begat Josaphat; and Josaphat begat Joram; and Joram begat Ozias;



9 And Ozias begat Joatham; and Joatham begat Achaz; and Achaz begat Ezekias;



10 And Ezekias begat Manasses; and Manasses begat Amon; and Amon begat Josias;

11 And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon:

12 And after they were brought to Babylon, Jechonias begat Salathiel; and Salathiel begat Zorobabel;

13 And Zorobabel begat Abiud; and Abiud begat Eliakim; and Eliakim begat Azor;



14 And Azor begat Sadoc; and Sadoc begat Achim; and Achim begat Eliud;

15 And Eliud begat Eleazar; and Eleazar begat Matthan; and Matthan begat Jacob;



16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

17 So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.


Also check out this article

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-r004.html
 
AC320
Posts: 2809
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 11:29 pm

RE: Religion Question

Thu Jan 22, 2004 6:53 am

Black and white, but then again I don't believe a word of the "New Testament" so suit yourself, but it does nothing to convince me. If I read anything in the Tanakh that said the Messiah would divine, would be Jesus or had anything that would give the New Testament some meaning to me, maybe I'd be inclined to believe that. I've read through it, but it didn't really do anything for me.

That article too has quite a few things so out of whack with Jewish teachings and interpretations of the Tanakh. If you can find any writtings there you'd like to discuss, I'd be more than happy to discuss the interpretations and implications.

[Edited 2004-01-21 22:54:38]

[Edited 2004-01-21 22:56:10]
fuddle duddle
 
advancedkid
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RE: Religion Question

Mon Jan 26, 2004 7:13 am

Hi,
I was interested in reading more
responses to this topic.
Well, I think it's best not to ever
say my religion / God / Holybook
is better than yours.
Kinda proves my theory?
Best thing is to keep ones religion
to yourself to maintain peace.

Enough said huh?

Advanced
 
AC320
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RE: Religion Question

Mon Jan 26, 2004 8:11 am

Oh its perfectly fine to state your religion and discuss it with other people. I've had many great conversations with Christians and Muslims on matters of faith, discussing issues. It's amazing how alike and how very different religions can be, you learn each has an interesting history and some good points.

I don't think A.net is the best environment for this though, in my experiences small groups, face to face verbal conversation in a relaxed and casual atmosphere is the way to go.

But sometimes we've had our conversations ruined when the "I'm right and you're wrong" thing start, sometimes from a new person or when we hit a touchy subject. It puts everyone on the defensive and the hostility starts.

We know we don't share beliefs and we'll flat out tell each other that, but it always gives the opportunity for someone to chime in with a different interpretation that their religion affords. you learn interesting things, some things you like, don't like agree with, disagree with, or even incorporate into your world view.

Interesting stuff, but I don't think we can accomplish that here. Or maybe I'm wrong and we pick back up in a better manner.
fuddle duddle
 
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TS-IOR
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RE: Religion Question

Wed Feb 04, 2004 1:23 am

This shows the irrelevance of the Bible of nowadays.The Bible and the Torah you are reading today have been changed several times by unfaithful religious men who wanted to tolerate some practices,deliberately or under pressures, that were prohibited by God.

Jesus is a messenger of God and not "Son of God" God bless.

The confusion comes when you join Jesus and Virgin Mary to God in your prays whereas only God is recommended to be worshipped.

Muslims believe in the unicity of God,and believe in all the messengers that preceded Mohammed,Jesus,Mose,...The principal of unicity of God have always been preserved by Muslims and it is clearly stated several times in the Quran.
 
AC320
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RE: Religion Question

Wed Feb 04, 2004 1:25 am

The Bible and the Torah you are reading today have been changed several times by unfaithful religious men who wanted to tolerate some practices,deliberately or under pressures, that were prohibited by God.

Please by all means, when you tell someone they're wrong back it up with something.
fuddle duddle
 
Marco
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RE: Religion Question

Wed Feb 04, 2004 1:30 am

AC320,

He's just telling us what the brainwashed masses of the Middle East believe. Prove to us, ts-ior, that the Koran hasn't changed.
Proud to be an Assyrian!
 
AC320
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RE: Religion Question

Wed Feb 04, 2004 1:37 am

well my beef is that making unsupported statements in a topic like this are just going to piss people off and prevent good healthy debate where we might actually learn something, or at least come to an understanding.
fuddle duddle
 
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TS-IOR
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RE: Religion Question

Wed Feb 04, 2004 1:54 am


O.K.read Quran and you'll find no verse that tells to worship something else than God and that's why unicity is sacred.You instead worship Jesus...whereas your book states;"you shall have no God before me".The dilemna is here.

The fact that you find such incoherences in your testaments proves that they were wrongly learnt or deliberately changed by man.God wouldn't say something contradictory however man does.
 
AC320
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RE: Religion Question

Wed Feb 04, 2004 2:02 am

I don't worship Jesus, so why don't you explain to me where and how the Torah was changed mmmm? Or are we going to just go in circles, spewing things here and there?
fuddle duddle
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Religion Question

Wed Feb 04, 2004 2:06 am

First, I´m completely neutral in this matter, being neither a Christian, Muslim or Jew.
Putting some fuel into the fire:
Wasn´t the chism between the Roman Catholic church and the Orthodox churches caused by a different interpretation of the Trinity?


P.S. I know at least two people who used to speak Aramaeic as their native language:
One is a sephardic Jewish woman from Baku, Aserbeidjan. She told me the Jewish community there was speaking Aramaeic as their daily language when she still lived there.
The other one is my deputy station manager, who is Iraqi, of the Christian minority.


Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
Marco
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RE: Religion Question

Wed Feb 04, 2004 3:05 am

The other one is my deputy station manager, who is Iraqi, of the Christian minority.

Now you know another one  Big grin. I'm also an Assyrian Christian from Iraq.

Ts-ior,

It seems to me that you do not want to understand what Christianity is about. I come from that region and I know your type. You won't get anywhere in life with that attitude.
Proud to be an Assyrian!
 
ScarletHarlot
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RE: Religion Question

Wed Feb 04, 2004 8:15 am

Marco, there may be a language / cultural barrier with Ts-ior. This is an excellent discussion, so let's cut each other some slack.

To go back to one of the original points of discussion, Dc10guy, I have always found the concept of the Trinity very difficult to understand and I still don't understand it or believe it. I am curious, those of you who believe the concept, were you introduced to it at a young age? I was not and I wonder if that is why I have difficulty with it.

Might there be differences in translations of the Quran? It is only the Arabic version which is considered 'pure', correct?

It has always seemed to me (and I know this point has been discussed and, by some, dismissed, above) that any religion which inspires its followers to do good is valid. I mean, who are we, people, to say we know what God thinks? Or that we know the one true way? How can we? I know some of you will say that God has written his word, or caused it to be written, and that is how we know. But there are so many versions of what is written, which is the correct one? How can we know?

This is my struggle with religion.
But that was when I ruled the world
 
bobrayner
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RE: Religion Question

Wed Feb 04, 2004 8:42 am

He's just telling us what the brainwashed masses of the Middle East believe. Prove to us, ts-ior, that the Koran hasn't changed.

Brainwashed masses? Are you generalising about muslims, about arabs, or making some other generalisation?
Cunning linguist
 
SSTjumbo
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RE: Religion Question

Wed Feb 04, 2004 8:47 am

O.K.read Quran and you'll find no verse that tells to worship something else than God and that's why unicity is sacred.You instead worship Jesus...whereas your book states;"you shall have no God before me".The dilemna is here.

It's been stated quite a few times that Jesus is God according to Christian teachings, just like George Bush is President of the United States. You can continue to see that as a dilemma if you wish, but don't ask anyone else to explain it, because that is the explanation.
I don't know, so this is my signature.

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