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Marco
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RE: Religion Question

Wed Feb 04, 2004 9:00 am

Brainwashed masses? Are you generalising about muslims, about arabs, or making some other generalisation?

After having lived there (the middle east) all my life, I'm saying what I observed. whether it's a generalization or not, I don't care. I'll leave the petty political correctness to you...
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TS-IOR
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RE: Religion Question

Wed Feb 04, 2004 10:21 pm


Marco,i thank God my destiny is not between your hands.

Is it logic to worship a man that has been crucified ? Does a God could be crucified ? Why he didn't avoid this if he was really supreme ?
 
FlySAA
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RE: Religion Question

Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:21 am

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life." John 3:16.
 
Marco
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RE: Religion Question

Thu Feb 05, 2004 6:01 am

Thanks FlySAA.

Marco,i thank God my destiny is not between your hands.

Thank God my destiny is not in your extremist hands.

Is it logic to worship a man that has been crucified ? Does a God could be crucified ? Why he didn't avoid this if he was really supreme ?

It shows how much he would sacrifise for us, which is alot more than Mohammad ever did in his life time. And trust me I've read about your prophet.
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jessman
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RE: Religion Question

Fri Feb 06, 2004 6:21 am

And another verse going back to the original question. Emphasis added to the parts I want you to notice.
John Chapter 8
33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? 34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. 35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. 36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. 37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. 38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father. 39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. 41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. 42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. 43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. 44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. 45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. 46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? 47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God. 48 Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil? 49 Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me. 50 And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth. 51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death. 52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death. 53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself? 54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: 55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Note the use of the phrase I AM.
Exodus 3:14 - And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

Again I don't pretend to know what God is thinking at any point, but it could very well be that he said "My God, my God why have you forsaken me?" just to point the teachers back to what was written about him in Psalms 22.

In any case the Christian takes Jesus Christ at his word.

Ezekiel 13:9 My hand will be against the prophets who see false visions and utter lying divinations. They will not belong to the council of my people or be listed in the records of the house of Israel, nor will they enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the Sovereign LORD .

If Christ lied about who he was, then he was a false prophet, a lunatic, or an imbecile. If he was lying about himself then the Quran is wrong in listing him as a prophet. Believe what he says about himself or call him false. There really is no other choice without being double minded.
 
AC320
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RE: Religion Question

Fri Feb 06, 2004 6:40 am

Note the use of the phrase I AM.
Exodus 3:14 - And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.


I've pointed out before that "I am that I am" is not a very accurate translation of the Hebrew. There is no clear translation of what G-d answers Moses, but the closest, most direct translation comes to "I shall be what I shall be" and the different wording can have a profound effect on interpretation.
fuddle duddle
 
advancedkid
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RE: Religion Question

Sun Feb 08, 2004 7:24 am

Hi there,
interesting stuff. I agree with AC320.
I wonder what makes TS-IOR an extremist,
if he just states his Muslim beliefs.
I don't see anyone insulted.
Religion is for heavens sake a personal
choice. Who are us to say my religion is better
than yours? When are we going to grow up?

Advanced
 
Marco
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RE: Religion Question

Sun Feb 08, 2004 7:35 am

AK,

Maybe you should go back and read who called who an extremist first. I don't care about his religious views, as long as he doesn't belittle mine. Denying that would be very hypocritical on your part.
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advancedkid
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RE: Religion Question

Sun Feb 08, 2004 8:01 am

Marco,
Okay, I didn't read the entire postings.
I think it's unChristian to call someone
an extremist just because he labeled you
such. Ofcourse that's unfortunate.
The best deal is either to prove him otherwise
or to ask TS-IOR the reason why he thinks
you are such.
Anyways, from what he says Unity of G-d
etc, doesn't sound wrong or as a dilemma to
me at all. As a matter of fact this is very much
in terms of the OT.
You shouldn't get angry or upset if someone
finds faults and flaws with the trinity. It's not
just Muslims who do.
Regards,

Advanced
 
bobrayner
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RE: Religion Question

Sun Feb 08, 2004 10:23 am

Maybe you should go back and read who called who an extremist first.

The word first appears here:
Thank God my destiny is not in your extremist hands.
Who was first? I thought it was you, but perhaps one of the brainwashed masses provoked you with a comment that subsequently got deleted. I'll withhold judgment on that.

I don't care about his religious views, as long as he doesn't belittle mine.

Do you belittle people? Learn more about it, or at least make an effort before posting. Do you understand what I'm saying?

Please, don't be insulted by me using your words. I'm not attacking you, I'm showing your hypocrisy.

Normally I like your comments and have a great deal of respect for your arguments... you can do better than that. Can't we all just turn the other cheek?  Smile

Wasn´t the chism between the Roman Catholic church and the Orthodox churches caused by a different interpretation of the Trinity?

Political differences equally important as a catalyst. There were a number of large religious differences - many of which arose because of western innovation. Even if we just concentrate on the nature of the trinity, there were several differences. The obvious one is a modification to the Nicene creed, re: the holy spirit? This innovation was adopted by certain temporal western leaders for a couple of centuries before popes accepted it; by the time that it was fully absorbed into the western church, there were already other differences.

The crusade that overran Constantinople was driven by politics, not religion. Attempts at reconciling the two seemed to originate in political goodwill rather than any religious principle. Local politics - and distance from the regulating central church - would determine whether catholicism and orthodoxy "on the ground" would take hard stances against each other (in Greece, the Adriatic, &c) or would share and absorb (in parts of the Balkans). In fact, in the last example, the (rural) population of some areas would happily share priests, charms, festivals, &c between three religions - catholicism, orthodoxy, and islam.
Cunning linguist
 
Marco
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RE: Religion Question

Sun Feb 08, 2004 12:52 pm

Bobrayner,

Ts-ior initiated this whole thing with his deragotory and pathetic comments. Of course you would deny that. Nowadays it's perfectly fine to mock the Christian faith as long as the other faiths aren't mocked. Such hypocrisy  Insane
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bobrayner
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RE: Religion Question

Mon Feb 09, 2004 9:28 am

Ts-ior initiated this whole thing with his deragotory and pathetic comments. Of course you would deny that. Nowadays it's perfectly fine to mock the Christian faith as long as the other faiths aren't mocked. Such hypocrisy

Marco, not everybody who disagrees with you is either a brainwashed extremist or a biased hypocrite. If you can accept a third possibility - that somebody can legitimately disagree with you and not be a Bad Person because of it - the discussion will move along a lot better.
Cunning linguist
 
jessman
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RE: Religion Question

Mon Feb 09, 2004 10:25 am

Oh, and trying to play word games with the same verb (to be, as the case may be) is silly. The phrase "can't see the forest for the trees" seems to come to mind. The religious leaders of his day tried to stone him because they knew exactly to what he was referring.

John 14

9Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves.

John 18

2Now Judas, who betrayed him, knew the place, because Jesus had often met there with his disciples. 3So Judas came to the grove, guiding a detachment of soldiers and some officials from the chief priests and Pharisees. They were carrying torches, lanterns and weapons.
4Jesus, knowing all that was going to happen to him, went out and asked them, "Who is it you want?"
5"Jesus of Nazareth," they replied.
6"I am he," Jesus said. (And Judas the traitor was standing there with them.) When Jesus said, "I am he," they drew back and fell to the ground.
 
AC320
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RE: Religion Question

Mon Feb 09, 2004 10:37 am

Silly?! Why when dealing with religious and biblical text word choice is everything. "I am that I am" can have a completly different meaning from "I shall be what I shall be" as the great Rabbis have taught us.

"I am that I am" - implies a more definitive definition of what G-d is. He simply is.

"I shall be what I shall be" - not quite as difinitive is it? The wording brings up some interesting questions. Judaism teaches us that when a person has an experience with G-d, it is a profoundly personal matter. When Moses asks his famous question for the name of G-d, He does not say "I am". Moses was never asking what name he should use for G-d when the children of Israel ask, he is asking for himself. G-d seems to ask Moses in turn "What am I to you?" and the answer is sufficient. G-d shall be what He shall be to each person, and cannot be accurately described to others.
fuddle duddle
 
bobrayner
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RE: Religion Question

Mon Feb 09, 2004 10:42 am

Silly?! Why when dealing with religious and biblical text word choice is everything. "I am that I am" can have a completly different meaning from "I shall be what I shall be" as the great Rabbis have taught us.

Whilst it certainly is an interesting terminological point, I think we can get a lot more mileage out of other, longer, less ambiguous passages. No?  Smile
Cunning linguist
 
AC320
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RE: Religion Question

Mon Feb 09, 2004 10:45 am

Sure, got a question about interpretations of the Tanakh? I got a wealth of reference material in my little home library.
fuddle duddle
 
jessman
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RE: Religion Question

Mon Feb 09, 2004 11:21 am

God may be experienced differently by different people, but that does not preclude him from taking physical form in the body of Jesus Christ. In fact your very word reinforce the idea that some could experience God in the form of a man. It doesn't keep Jesus from referring to that verse when he says I AM. It doesn't keep the religious leaders of his day from knowing exactly what he was claiming.
The syntax or verb tense makes no difference, When Jesus Christ said "Before Abraham was, I am" he left no doubt that he was claiming to be God. At his betrayal when he says I AM he, the sheer weight of that phrase causes the people to fall down. He says it explicitly "I am in the Father, the Father is in me"
 
AC320
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RE: Religion Question

Mon Feb 09, 2004 11:48 am

G-d could not have been in the form of a living breathing man, (at least as Judaism holds) as G-d is incorporeal.

Deuteronomy 4:12: HASHEM spoke to you from the midst of the fire; you were hearing the sound of words, but you were not seeing a likeness.

and 4:15-16: But you shall greatly beware for your souls, for you did not see any likeness on the day HASHEM spoke to you at Horeb, from the midst of the fire, lest you act corruptly and make yourselves a carved image, a likeness of any shape; a form of a male or a female
fuddle duddle
 
Marco
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RE: Religion Question

Mon Feb 09, 2004 2:39 pm

Marco, not everybody who disagrees with you is either a brainwashed extremist or a biased hypocrite. If you can accept a third possibility - that somebody can legitimately disagree with you and not be a Bad Person because of it - the discussion will move along a lot better.

Don't put words into my mouth. I never said that anyone that disagrees with me is all of those things. Ts-ior's rhetoric is the typical extremist, intolerant rhetoric of many in the Middle East. This is based on my experience. If you disagree with me respectfully, I will bother to listen.

It's funny how none of you are noticing Ts-ior's intolerance...oh yes I forgot, it's perfectly fine to be intolerant of Christianity.
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jessman
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RE: Religion Question

Mon Feb 09, 2004 2:57 pm

Do Jews still wait for a messiah?
What will be the significance of this messiah?
When you read to Gospels do you just choose to ignore the prophesies that Jesus Christ fulfilled. Do you not believe the prophets?
 
MD-90
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RE: Religion Question

Mon Feb 09, 2004 3:29 pm

AC320, I think that for us to put limitations on what God can and can't do is rather arrogant, personally.

Sure he has been incorporeal. But what about when he "walked" or "passed by" if you will and Moses was near. God told Moses to not look lest he be overwhelmed. Clearly there was something there. And that's in the OT, too. Somewhere in Exodus, probably, but I'm not sure.

Genesis 28:12-13 – He had a dream in which he saw a stairway resting on the earth, with its top reaching to heaven, and the angels of God were ascending and descending on it. There above it stood the LORD , and he said: "I am the LORD , the God of your father Abraham and the God of Isaac. I will give you and your descendants the land on which you are lying.

So you have a dream where he sees a physical Lord, although of course it is a dream, not real life.

Exodus 33:11 – The LORD would speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks with his friend. Then Moses would return to the camp, but his young aide Joshua son of Nun did not leave the tent.

Again ... there's a face involved here. I'm not saying that God wasn't or isn't even usually not incorporeal, I just don't think it's all that terribly strange for him to have become a man.
 
advancedkid
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RE: Religion Question

Mon Feb 09, 2004 5:19 pm

Hi,
I can't buy into the G-d became man thingy
and that's mainly why I stepped out of main
stream church.
It just doesn't add up especially when we
at the same time read that Jesus used to pray!
Pray to himself or pray to Father?
Then there's no proof Jesus talked of or taught
the "holy trinity". It was obviously made up
by later Christians.
I could go on and on but then some people
would call me an atheist or insulting Christian
faith etc.
 
AC320
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RE: Religion Question

Mon Feb 09, 2004 11:25 pm

Alright first up Jessman,

Jews still wait for the Messiah. This figure is supposed to be a descendant of King David, gain sovereignty over Israel, gather the Jews there, restore the full observance of Torah law, and finally usher in an era of world peace.

Jewish belief seems to constantly see the Messianic Age as perpetually in the future, many see this as a driving behind the Jews to work hard for perfecting the world, in order to speed his coming. In fact the Reform movement affirms there will not be an individual Messiah, but the Messianic Age will come about from the combined efforts of all mankind.

Sorry Jessman, but most Jews simply do not believe the Gospels, I don't. To us he has not fulfilled all the prophesies, where is his kingdom in Israel? Where is world peace? Thus we continue to wait. Our history is full of men who claimed the title Messiah and their followers.

Also absolutely nothing in Jewish texts suggests the Messiah is a divine being. Divine influence yes, but divine himself? Absolutely not.

MD-90,

No one mentioned any limitations on G-d's power. You assume arrogance rather than ask for more details. Certainly mere men cannot comprehend the power of a being that brought the universe into existence with just thought and word.

An article posted on the Jewish Virtual Library http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Judaism/g-d.html answers your questions. I will post key parts here:

G-d is One

One of the primary expressions of Jewish faith, recited twice daily in prayer, is the Shema, which begins "Hear, Israel: The L-rd is our G-d, The L-rd is one." This simple statement encompasses several different ideas:

1. There is only one G-d. No other being participated in the work of creation.
G-d is a unity.
2. He is a single, whole, complete indivisible entity. He cannot be divided into parts or described by attributes. Any attempt to ascribe attributes to G-d is merely man's imperfect attempt to understand the infinite.
3. G-d is the only being to whom we should offer praise. The Shema can also be translated as "The L-rd is our G-d, The L-rd alone," meaning that no other is our G-d, and we should not pray to any other.

G-d is incorporate

Although many places in scripture and Talmud speak of various parts of G-d's body (the Hand of G-d, G-d's wings, etc.) or speak of G-d in anthropomorphic terms (G-d walking in the garden of Eden, G-d laying tefillin, etc.), Judaism firmly maintains that G-d has no body. Any reference to G-d's body is simply a figure of speech, a means of making G-d's actions more comprehensible to beings living in a material world. Much of Maimonides' Guide for the Perplexed is devoted to explaining each of these anthropomorphic references and proving that they should be understood figuratively.

G-d is Omnipotent

G-d can do anything. It is said that the only thing that is beyond His power is the fear of Him; that is, we have free will, and He cannot compel us to do His will. This belief in G-d's omnipotence has been sorely tested during the many persecutions of Jews, but we have always maintained that G-d has a reason for allowing these things, even if we in our limited perception and understanding cannot see the reason.

We are forbidden to represent G-d in a physical form. That is considered idolatry. The sin of the Golden Calf incident was not that the people chose another deity, but that they tried to represent G-d in a physical form.


Just as side note what I post here is not necessarily representative of my personal religious convictions. I approach my study of Judaism as mix of scholarly and religious; an attempt to find out more of who I am and where I come from. What I believe in exactly, I may show you parts, but the whole story is mine and G-d's alone.


fuddle duddle
 
Marco
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RE: Religion Question

Tue Feb 10, 2004 3:51 am

AK,

Just out of curiosity, why do you write G-d...are you Jewish?
Proud to be an Assyrian!
 
asbg
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RE: Religion Question

Tue Feb 10, 2004 4:46 am

Just out of curiosity why don't Christians write GOD as G-D. From what I know Jews write it that way from religious reasons and out of respect and love for god. In Hebrew we write GOD as H' which is short for Hashem. Since I was young I was taught that I have to write the name of god with an apostrophe to respect his holiness.

Sam.

 
jessman
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RE: Religion Question

Tue Feb 10, 2004 6:10 am

Advancedkid; Christ also came to set an example. God wants us to pray, so our example prays. Do you not talk to yourself? How do you think. When you post on this website you talk to yourself.
God in the flesh was forced to deal with the frailities of the human corpse. The flesh wants to preserve itself. That is its will, we were designed that way. Christ had to make his flesh subject to the will of the spirit.
 
jessman
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RE: Religion Question

Tue Feb 10, 2004 6:15 am

Also, Christians in the English speaking world capitalize God out of respect. No one else is referred to as "God". A lower case god refers to any other alleged deity that people have chosen to worship over the years Thor, Jupiter, Ra, etc.
 
jessman
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RE: Religion Question

Tue Feb 10, 2004 7:44 am

--a descendant of King David
Christ was, hence the detailed geneaology in two different gospels. One traces via Mary (since Joseph was technically not the father) and another traces through Joseph. Both trace through king David.
--gain sovereignty over Israel
Christ was crucified as "King of the Jews". But he rose again. The Christian believes in the spiritual that Christ is soverign over the entire world.
--gather the Jews there
Prior to the formation of the state of Israel many people mocked Revelation, and Christ's own prophesies because they spoke of the nation and people of Israel. Everyone knew Israel didn't exist anymore. The Bible must be wrong. Even people who believed tried to explain it away as maybe having already happened, but I believe that the Bible is both historically accurate and prophetically accurate. God miraculously set up the nation-state of Israel. With anti-Jewish (I'd say anti-semetic, but some people on this forum try to take the meaning of that phrase away) sentiment growing throughout the world the Jews are naturally migrating to an area that accepts them.
--restore the full observance of Torah law.
Christ did something that no other human could do; he fully observed Torah law. He was without sin.
--finally usher in an era of world peace.
Christians believe this too. We believe Christ still lives, the tomb is empty; he is risen and lives forevermore. We await his return. In this way both Christians and Jews await the coming of messiah. Christians just believe he is coming again.

I urge you and all people to read the New Testament with an open mind. See how many times the scripture was revealed to his disciples. See how many times he fulfilled prophesy to the letter.
 
mirrodie
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RE: Religion Question

Tue Feb 10, 2004 7:45 am

The trinity is in the Bible, it's not a concept that evolved. It's not that complicated... I have to disagree. If the Torah are the first 5 books, then anything written after that is evolution of the original text. That is not opinion, but fact. How? The HEBREW bible is the precursor to the Bible as Christians know it.

Dc10guy,
Actually it's not a cover up. Maybe you're trying to make it seem that way but it's not. It was explained pretty well for you.
NOT true. As a Christian, how can you possible give an unbiased point of view? Your set of scriptures is your reference, but not dc10guy's.

DC10guy, thanks for starting an excellent conversation.
May I ask, are you agnostic?

In this thread, you have to assume DC10guy is neither Christian, Jewish nor Muslim. So, respectfully, Jessman and all, when you make an attempt to point at spiritual texts as proof, you are doing it from the perspective of a member of that religion and there lies a bias.

Ironically, my fiancee and I (Jewish) were discussing this subject just last night. And she said "how can the 3 be one? How can God be Jesus and the Holy Spirit?"

So I tried to explain it from my perspective but also from an non-catholic POV which is tough. Then, as an example, I drew an analogy to Chanukah, the miracle of the lights. The same way Jews cannot explain that the oil lasted 8 nights is the same way I can't explain the Trinity. So I see your perspective.

DC10guy, let me offer this POV. note I am catholic but I am trying to explain it from eccentric POV:

-2000 years ago, the Jews were praying and waiting around for a Messiah to come.

-The entity Jesus enters the picture and he lives such a great life that he is revered as an example to others. So much so that people living at the time started saying "Hey, look guys, The way this Jesus guy lives, we have to do that too!"

-So many Jews started believing this that, well, they got impatient. After seeing Jesus go through life as he did and seeing him give his life up, these Jews, living at the time said, "Hey, wait a minute. This IS the Messiah!


There is your start of Christianity. That is my funny way of explaining it but that is my understanding of the truth. Jews were the first Christians. And the rest of TODAYS world's Jews are still waiting. That is their belief.

Now, getting to the God the father, Son and Holy Spirit, I reason it this way, again, I'll try to not let my Catholic background influence:

G-d is this presence that we can't understand totally (this thread is testament to that). But christian religions tried to make it more real by adding this "Jesus" thing. This Jesus was said to be such an amazing human being. So perhaps christians took "Jesus" and said, "OK, ok, this Jesus is EVERYTHING that G-d could possibly be. If you want a better understanding of what G-d is, you better check out this Jesus guy."
Hence, G-d is Jesus.

And as far as the Holy Spirit, Im still working on that. Those 12 years of Catholic school didn't help.


Lastly, as I said, my fiancee is Jewish and I love learning about Judaism as christians owe their roots to Judaism.

One thing I have always loved about Judaism is this: G-D.
The ultimate in reverance that one cannot even spell the words. That moves me and is something I want to do in order to show my reverence as well.

Why? G-d is such a presence in my life, I want to show it.
Forum moderator 2001-2010; He's a pedantic, pontificating, pretentious bastard, a belligerent old fart, a worthless st
 
AC320
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RE: Religion Question

Tue Feb 10, 2004 8:45 am

Jessman, it's those "spiritual" things the is cause of the schism. The fact that many of the prophesies were physically unfulfilled by Jesus is why he will not be accepted by Jews and why the Messianic prophesies remain unfulfilled in Jewish eyes.

These facts remain for Jews:

1) Jesus was not a member of the tribe of Judah (patriarchal lineage applies)
2) All the Jews have not been gathered in Israel, our exile has not ended
3) Jesus did not rededicate/Rebuild the Temple
4) He has not ruled over a time of world peace
5) The whole world does not acknowledge G-d's sovereignty

The messiah must accomplish this all within his reign and lifetime. He is not a purely religious figure that saves us from sin. He will be the leader of the Jewish people; our representative in all respects.

The Christian belief in Jesus goes against the entire Jewish understanding of G-d and the Tanakh. Indeed many feel that Jesus did not fulfill the law due to the manner of his death being counter to the commandments regarding the offering of a sacrifice to G-d (i.e. the paschal lamb.). Indeed many teachings of Christianity regarding sin, afterlife, righteousness, and the fate of members of other nations/faiths are out of synch with Jewish belief.
fuddle duddle
 
ScarletHarlot
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RE: Religion Question

Tue Feb 10, 2004 8:46 am

Well said, Mirrodie, thank you!
But that was when I ruled the world
 
mirrodie
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RE: Religion Question

Tue Feb 10, 2004 8:53 am

what part did I get right, Scarlot?  Smile

Forum moderator 2001-2010; He's a pedantic, pontificating, pretentious bastard, a belligerent old fart, a worthless st
 
MD-90
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RE: Religion Question

Tue Feb 10, 2004 9:09 am

AC320, I agree with what you posted. It's a very good point that God can't be represented in an physical figure, like the golden calf was. I rather think that a lot of the aspects of God are simply beyond human capabilities of understanding and thought. We simply can't comprehend Him in all of his true power and glory.


Have you ever read the Left Behind series? The authors have a very interesting interpretation of the end times, and I've almost all of them (not quite, though). When I stopped, the 144,000 of the twelve tribes had been gathered together in one place. Interesting stuff.
 
AC320
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RE: Religion Question

Tue Feb 10, 2004 9:22 am

No I haven't read the Left Behind series, but I've heard much about them. As the Jewish view of the transition betwen our current world and a Messianic one differs from the Christian viw of the end times, I found the books different but not entertaining noe my cup of tea understandably.
fuddle duddle
 
ScarletHarlot
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RE: Religion Question

Tue Feb 10, 2004 9:32 am

Mirrodie, I don't know what you got *right* - that's the whole discussion here, isn't it? - but I appreciate your openmindedness, your efforts to speak with no bias, and you trying to keep this discussion healthy and respectful. That is what made me appreciate your post.
But that was when I ruled the world
 
jessman
Posts: 1457
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RE: Religion Question

Tue Feb 10, 2004 9:57 am

Mirrodie, We believe the bible as truth, and the basis for our faith. If you ask a question about my faith I refer to the scripture as I believe them. He was asking a Christian what a Christian belives and why. That's like someone asking a US Citizen to explain how the US Government is supposed to operate, but don't use the US Constitution to explain, that document is biased in favor of US Citizens.

Key to this is that I believe the bible is truth. As truth if you could go back and say that the Bible is fundamentally incorrect, then it can't be used as an argument. But you can't. You may not believe it, but you can't prove that it is fundamentally flawed.

I have given this challenge before, I give it again; Try.
 
jessman
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RE: Religion Question

Tue Feb 10, 2004 10:05 am

AC320. He still lives. I don't know the hour or day, but there is coming a time when every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. There will come the time that the stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone.
 
AC320
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RE: Religion Question

Tue Feb 10, 2004 10:13 am

And the point is that makes absolutely no sense according to Jewish teachings. I have stated my case in that regard, I'm not out to convert anyone, but to develop understanding, spread new ideas and interpretations. With responses like that I see nothing I say will spark new thought.

This highlights perhaps the biggests disagreement between Judaism and Christianity: G-d judges based on your deeds and what you do with the time given to you vs judgement by faith.
fuddle duddle
 
mirrodie
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RE: Religion Question

Tue Feb 10, 2004 11:09 am

Jessman, there's no challenge there. Quoting scripture to one who does not believe them is fruitless. In fact, I dare say it is evangelism.

Second, he didn't ask a Christian anything, it was an open query. Go read the original thread starting post.

Lastly, AC320 made an excellent point. Throwing out a faith based text doesn't answer spark new thought. It is merely regurgitating what was read to one whilst sitting in pews. I used to do that a lot until I moved out of the house and saw the world through open eyes.

I am Catholic, but what gives me the right to proclaim what you said, "every knee shall bend, etc"? We are paltry little nothings in G-d's world and we callously think we can make such proclamations?

G-d gave me free will to ask questions, challenge authority and create new thought. And you know where I learned that? When I was a Core member of a LifeTeen Parish. This is a Catholic youth organization I used to help out with a few years ago. Also 12 years of Catholic school, with Franciscan brothers sharing their knowledge, really helped.

Faith inspires hope and yearning, whereas your proclamation goes beyond that, trying to infer to others that their belief systems are wrong.

"Our G-d is an awesome G-d, who reigns from heaven above..." Cute little song I learned and enjoy.... But wait, if we are singing that God is "an" awesome G-D, doesn't that further question the very point Dc10guy made?

If you are using "an", then perhaps there is more than one God? The song says it all, Come on, worship Our G-d! Poor Christian marketing I think!  Innocent Or another challenge? Clearly the song is not helping in providing an explanation for dc10guy

The problem is that in our free will, by virtue of our being human, we all to easily distort "Our God" to MY God and Your God or my beliefs and your beliefs.

He still lives. I don't know the hour or day, but there is coming a time when every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. There will come the time that the stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone.

Oh c'mon, so by stating some religious text, People are alienated, such as the Jews, and it further divides people....


Case in point, on Long Island's North Shore, there is a cafe that hosts spiritual music singers everyonce in a while. One night my friend was singing there, so my Highheels (my fiancee) and I went to see him.

While there, people were generally nice, saying hello to one another ad I ran into many old friends. It was a good night and my buddy can sing real well.

So what happens? One of these socially inept idiots rolls up to me and says "hello and welcome". So I say hello.

Then she turns to Highheels and says, "So when did you decide to accept Jesus as your Risen Lord?"

Highheels says, "Um, I'm Jewish and I'm here to see our friend Sal play."

Wow, a simple "Hello, now are you?" could have gone much farther.

But this person, in her attempt to assume that everyone shares her proclamation, something unfounded, realized her mistake and walked away after apologizing with a smile.

The Trinity is a miracle of sorts for Catholics as the 8 nights of Chanukah lights are for the Jews. It is really that simple an explanation.

Forum moderator 2001-2010; He's a pedantic, pontificating, pretentious bastard, a belligerent old fart, a worthless st
 
AC320
Posts: 2809
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 11:29 pm

RE: Religion Question

Tue Feb 10, 2004 12:45 pm

Perhaps this will help understand where I come from.

5,000 years of Judaism summed up as best as I can.


1) The Torah is the central document of Judaism, and of Jewish bible (Tanakh). It was revealed to Moses and the Children of Israel at Sinai. It is here that we formally enter into our covenant with G-d. We are taught that every Jewish soul that was/would live was present at Sinai to bear witness to giving of the Torah and affirm their pledge to enter into the covenant with G-d. The torah contains the 613 commandments that regulate everything from ethical conduct to ritual slaughter and sacrifices of animals. No one is expected to actually follow the commandments to the letter. The great Rabbis teach us that these are a guide to life, and when famously a student asked "If the commandments could be seen as a ladder, who is closer to G-d, the man at the top or the man at the bottom?" the Rabbi replied "but your question is not finished, you did not say who is striving to climb higher".

2) Man is created in G-d's image. Not literally, but we are endowed with G-d's gift to reason and distinguish between good and evil. It is in this free will that we are but in a small part, like G-d.

3) Deuteronomy 16:20 "Justice, Justice shall you pursue". If there's but one thing G-d wishes from us, it is to create a just and fair world. G-d himself is bound by this law.

4) Man has the right to question and debate with G-d. Yes, that's right I said it. G-d has responsibilities just as we do, and just as He questions us when we fail to live up to expectation, so must we remind G-d of His responsibilities to us. When G-d plans the destruction of Sodom and Gommorah, Abraham challenges the Almighty, "Shall not the Judge of all the earth not act with justice?". When the Children of Israel commit the sin of the golden calf, G-d rages and vows to destroy them and give Moses a better people to lead, to wish Moses challenges "Then blot me out too".

5) Leviticus 19:34 The Stranger who resides with you shall be as one of your citizens; you shall love him as youself, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt

6) Deuteronomy 24:17, 27:19 and Jeremiah 22:3 "Not to oppress the stanger, the orphan and the widow". Even the lower casts of society deserve all our love and support.

7) Deutoronomy 24:16 "Fathers shall not be put to death for the sins of sons, nor sons for the sins of fathers" you are responsible for your actions in this world and yours alone. Also why we do not accept the idea of "Original Sin".

8) We are the Chosen People, through our covenant with G-d we are responsible for bringing knowledge of Him to the world, and to live as an example among nations. This does not affirm us special privelages, in fact G-d judges us more harshly than others since we are His representatives.

9) Non-Jews are allowed all of G-d's love and graces so long as they do not deny his existance. One does not have to be Jewish to have a place in the World to Come. G-d will judge you based on your actions and conduct in life. A would be convert once asked a Rabbi if he can sum up Judaism while standing on one foot, he would promptly convert. The Rabbi got on one foot and said "What you would not do unto yourself, do not do to others. The rest is commentary, now go and study".

10) Afterlife. There are very few references dealing with what happens when we die. The Jewish belief is that such thigns are the matter of G-d and G-d alone, we are not to worry ourselves with what will come so much as we should concentrate on perfecting the world with what lives we have. G-d will provide and care. What beliefs have formed are:

-Only the true righteous go immediately to heaven

-The rest must have their souls cleansed in a purgatory, a process the lasts no more than 12 months. some believe that the person sees the sum of his life, how he made others feel, and what opportunities he was too selfish to see and explore. Others feel each sin creates a personal demon that punishes us for that sin. Yes others feel in purgatory the soul is given the opportunity to understand and accept G-d in all his glory before allowed to move on. souls that cannot be cleansed or the truly wicked are either destroyed or sent to an unkown fate.

11) You must fear G-d in the sense that it liberates you from the fear of your fellow man, and that it defends the weak and the disadvantaged from the powerful.

12) Tzedaka. Give significantly (10% of your income) to charity, help those who need it, work to perfect the world and make it a better place. Charity may not save us, but it makes us worth saving.

13) Where life it at stake, all laws are forfeit. Human life has infinate value, if you save a man, you save not only him but all of his decendants through all time. consequently murder is considered the only sin for which there is no forgiveness. This leads to my favourite phrase of all time:

WHOEVER SAVES A SINGLE LIFE IT IS AS IF HE SAVED THE WORLD ENTIRE

14) Faith in G-d does not forgive sins. Only the acknowledgement that you sinned combined with abstaining from commiting that sin again constitutes repentance. Only the person to whom you sinned can forgive you, G-d cannot forgive you if you sinned to your friend. Also, no one, not even G-d can withhold forgiveness if you are sincere.

15) I've explained our concept of the Messiah well enough.

And that's just a rough overview of some basic beliefs and pillars. To be truthful, Judaism cannot be accurately described like this, it is a way of life combined with a relationship with G-d, and a mix of constant questioning and discovery. As the Rabbi said, "Go and study". good idea.

whew
fuddle duddle
 
jessman
Posts: 1457
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RE: Religion Question

Tue Feb 10, 2004 1:05 pm

Oh c'mon, so by stating some religious text, People are alienated, such as the Jews, and it further divides people....

I believe that the Bible is the word of God. It is holy. It is infallible.
2 Timothy 3
15and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.


The Holy Bible is where I get the words of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, who said
Matthew 10
32"Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. 33But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven.
34"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35For I have come to turn
" 'a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law--
36a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'
37"Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.
40"He who receives you receives me, and he who receives me receives the one who sent me. 41Anyone who receives a prophet because he is a prophet will receive a prophet's reward, and anyone who receives a righteous man because he is a righteous man will receive a righteous man's reward. 42And if anyone gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones because he is my disciple, I tell you the truth, he will certainly not lose his reward."

in the middle there he quoted Micah 7:6. Christ was often quoting scriptures about himself.
 
mirrodie
Posts: 6796
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RE: Religion Question

Tue Feb 10, 2004 1:27 pm

AC320, the rabbi was right on. Go and study, not go and quote.



And until people stop quoting and start acting, those lines will continue to be drawn. Its no wonder that religion is the worlds greatest killer.  Insane
Forum moderator 2001-2010; He's a pedantic, pontificating, pretentious bastard, a belligerent old fart, a worthless st
 
Marco
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RE: Religion Question

Tue Feb 10, 2004 1:43 pm

Jessman, thanks for those posts. Very well written and informative.
Proud to be an Assyrian!
 
mirrodie
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RE: Religion Question

Tue Feb 10, 2004 1:55 pm

Aren't quotes usually that? well written?

I fail to see how these quotes prove anything.

Forum moderator 2001-2010; He's a pedantic, pontificating, pretentious bastard, a belligerent old fart, a worthless st
 
Marco
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RE: Religion Question

Tue Feb 10, 2004 2:06 pm

Well to me they make a lot of sense, and re-inforce my faith.
Proud to be an Assyrian!
 
MD-90
Posts: 7836
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2000 12:45 pm

RE: Religion Question

Tue Feb 10, 2004 8:18 pm

For AC320:

1) Now this is interesting. You follow the Torah but don't do sacrifices and such, which I can understand ... but there are 613 commandments and you don't have to literally follow them? Hmmm... Christians see it as the new covenant that Jesus brought supercedes the old, although the old should still be respected.

2) Agreed

3) God is justice. He can't be unjust. Agree.

4) Agreed

5) Okay

6) Agreed

7) I agree with the personal responsibility, but the doctrine of original sin and that man has fallen makes sense to me. And elsewhere in the Bible God does mention how He will punish men unto their 3rd/4th generation or so, but for those who love Him he'll bless them for ~1000 generations.

8) I understand that. Christians are also instructed to spread the good news (although it's about Jesus and God, not just God) and be good examples of righteousness.

9) Partially agree. The rabbi basically stated the golden rule, to which I would add love the Lord your God with all of your heart/mind/soul/strength. But while we will be judged for our actions, for the good and the evil that we do while we're blessed with life, but we will always fall pathetically short of God's example ... and that's where Jesus steps in as our intercessor. I rather like the concept of God being the judge, the Word being the book of laws, and Jesus being our advocate.

10) I agree that we really don't know what heaven will be like, although we do know that there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth in hell. But I don't believe in purgatory because it's not stated in the Bible.

11) Agreed. 777236ER once scoffed at the fear of God, saying that he didn't understand why we should cower in fear all the time, but it's not that kind of fear. It's really respect and love, and that's why we obey Him (also it's for our own good).

12) Agree, although I wonder if tithing 10% to the church ... say tithe 5% to church and 5% to charity (such as the Salvation Army or Samaritan's Purse, not PETA) is okay. The Bible does say to give 10%, though.

13) Agreed. Which is why I think abortion is murder. Although I also think of capital punishment as sending the offender off to be judged by God earlier than what would otherwise come to pass.

14) I partially agree ... I say that because I'm not exactly sure about the sinning against other people part and having to ask THEM for forgiveness. That does seem to be the case. Maybe I just don't want to have to admit to some people the things I've done against them that they don't know about.

15) Same here.



How do you feel about Jews who are Jewish by descent, but don't practice the religion? Are they destined to spend a longer time in purgatory? And this is honestly the first time that I've ever heard of Jews believing in the concept of purgatory. I'm not sure where the it comes from.
 
advancedkid
Posts: 740
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2000 1:27 pm

RE: Religion Question

Tue Feb 10, 2004 10:18 pm

Hi Marco,
Okay, I am not sure if I would call myself
Jewish. I don't like any labeling.
However, the reason why I write "G-d"
is because I have learned it from some
Jewish friends of mine and I think the
reasons they do it are valid. Out of respect
as someone just explained above.

Marco, I ususally don't like someone
asking me to what faith I belong to because
I don't see myself inclined to one particular
faith and also don't like to be labeled
or classified as anything.
If you ask me, I agree with various
aspects of Judaism, Islam and Christianity,
in no particular order or definite percentage.
Are you confused yet?

I take what makes sense to me and reject
whatever is difficult to comprehend or don't
seem to make sense.
I hope that helps!

Advanced


 
AC320
Posts: 2809
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RE: Religion Question

Tue Feb 10, 2004 11:57 pm

How do you feel about Jews who are Jewish by descent, but don't practice the religion? Are they destined to spend a longer time in purgatory? And this is honestly the first time that I've ever heard of Jews believing in the concept of purgatory. I'm not sure where the it comes from.

It's a little known concept. Jewish ideas about the afterlife are few and far between, as I said , such things are felt thay should be left to G-d without us questioning or wondering about things that are beyond our scope and power. We have these theories here and there but even I Rabbi will ultimately tell you "I don't know for sure". If a person spends a longer time in this purgatory, it is not neccessarily a bad things but an opportunity to understand the sum of one's life and come to an understadning and ultimatly complete acceptance of G-d

but there are 613 commandments and you don't have to literally follow them?

You have to do everything in your power to follow them. Obviously laws of sacrifice and such are forfeit until a new temple is rededicated but it is the duty of every Jew to make every effort to follow all the laws. It's a difficult task, but as the Rabbi said "Which man is striving to climb higher?" that is who is closer to G-d in His eyes.
fuddle duddle
 
latinaviation
Posts: 1162
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2003 11:25 pm

RE: Religion Question

Wed Feb 11, 2004 1:03 am

Maybe someone with a better religious background than I can help me out. What are the principle differences between the major Protestant religions and, say, the Jehova's Witnesses, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saint (aka Mormon's) or even the Pentecostal Church?
 
MD-90
Posts: 7836
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2000 12:45 pm

RE: Religion Question

Wed Feb 11, 2004 12:27 pm

So if the temple, which I believe is supposed to be rebuilt where the current Dome of the Rock is, is rebuilt, then sacrifices are supposed to be restarted? Although of course, having the temple rebuilt is one of the signs of the end times.

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