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NUAir
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LA Confidential (the French Have Gone Too Far)

Thu Jun 17, 2004 2:47 am

Finally the French have gone above and beyond to make sure that Lance Armstrong doesn't set the Tour De France record by winning 6 straight by yet again raising the drug question (its easier to accuse him of cheating than to actually train harder and compete with him).

According to the new book "LA Confidential, the secrets of Lance Armstrong,"
Armstrong is being yet again accused of illegal drug use. The heart of the accusations come from Emma O'Reilly, who worked for several years as Armstrong's masseur, physical therapist and personal assistant. A USPS team spokesman confirmed O'Reilly "was a past employee" but declined additional comment.

The book claims Armstrong asked O'Reilly to dispose of a black bag containing the used syringes after the Tour of the Netherlands in 1998. O'Reilly said she did not know what was in the syringes, according to the book.

So based on this one incident where there is absolutely no proof that Armstrong used drugs an entire piece of s#$% book has been written and published just weeks before the Tour is to start. In addition Before any of the facts were cleared up L'Express magazine ran an article on the book and the drug charges! Both the authors of the book and L'Express are being sued.

To clear everything up. Lance Armstrong has never failed a drug test!!! In the five years he won the Tour de France he never failed any test despite being tested everyday during the tour and every week during the rest of the year. This is not only urine tests but also blood tests.

So the question is when will the French finally accept that Lance is an amazing athlete and get over their childish jealousy that the country of cars can produce some of the worlds top cyclists or will they continue the bs accusations that have proven wrong for the last 5 years?

It would be ideal if they would just accept that he is an amazing athlete (not like a still celebrated dead Italian junkie who was the last winner of the Tour) and recognize a man who has brought millions of new spectators to the sport.

I just hope that yet another American (Hamilton or Leipenheimer) will take over the number one spot if Lance were to lose.

"How Many Assholes we got on this ship?" - Lord Helmet
 
KROC
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RE: LA Confidential (the French Have Gone Too Far)

Thu Jun 17, 2004 2:52 am

Last time I checked, the whole country of France wasn't out to shut down Lance. I love a good French "surrenders" joke as much as anyone, but your generalizations here are above and beyond anything. Lance like he said is a heavily tested athlete. He is suing the 2 reporters in question, and he himself has asked to see the proof. Sure its something he will have to deal with, but I'm sure he can concentrate on the task at hand.
 
Imonti
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RE: LA Confidential (the French Have Gone Too Far)

Thu Jun 17, 2004 3:01 am

They french still have frozen urine of Armstrongs from a few years ago, in an atempt to bust him later, do remember thou that drug testing is far behind the drug use, for instance take Ramsus as an example. His wife at the Franco-Italian border had 43 different doping products including testosterone and steriods and said they were for her sick mom, please tell me how ofter a mother takes steriods and testosterone. There is a lot of controversy in cycling, I do think a lot of professional cyclists dope, although Armstrong has far to much riding on it.

There is an awesome book I suggest every one reads and it illustrates to what extent doping is prevalent in sport, written by some one who was busted and came clean and he still was very tame in his book. It was the Festina Soigneur from the 1998 scandal, the actual gentleman that was stopped.

The book is called Willy Woet, breaking the chain, drugs and cycling the true story. Its a thin easy to read book, you will finish it in no time.

I am going to watch the tour in July, going to watch the Alph d'huez mountain time trial, it is going to be amazing I know and I hope Lance can win, although he has burnt his bridges with some of the people who have given him the most mental and emotional support in recent years and when the problems of his started was when he wasnt riding so well.

 
Guest

RE: LA Confidential (the French Have Gone Too Far)

Thu Jun 17, 2004 3:08 am

1. As KROC put it, a huge majority of French people love Lance. He is by far the most popular cyclist there.

2. L'Express is quite a serious magazine as you must know, I doubt they would put out an article only for anti-americanism's sake. Plus, they weren't the only ones to talk about the book, there was a British newspaper or magazine (sorry, can't remember which one) that ran the story.

Imonti: freezing samples is mandatory, they didn't just freeze them to catch Armstrong, they do it for all runners. And, the Lithuanian guy is called Rumsas (bloody typo eh?  Big grin)
 
L-188
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RE: LA Confidential (the French Have Gone Too Far)

Thu Jun 17, 2004 6:20 am

Sorry, but being down on anything american, has become a blood sport in some sects of French society.

Lance is a particular target of them, because he dominates "their" sport. Remember a couple of years ago, when the US tennis players where booed at the French Open?

Lance has survied several years of the crowds yelling "doopee, doopee!!" at him from the sidelines, I doubt it bothers him that much again.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
iakobos
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RE: LA Confidential (the French Have Gone Too Far)

Thu Jun 17, 2004 8:19 pm

L-188
Be careful, schizophrenia is just round the corner.

Where do you get these ideas ?
that French are anti-US
Lance Armstrong is a target for the French
Lance "dominates" the cycling sport
US tennis players were booed at the French Open
French crowds are yelling "doopee" from the sidelines

It is high time you reset yourself and emerge from the darkness
 
ben
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RE: LA Confidential (the French Have Gone Too Far)

Thu Jun 17, 2004 8:26 pm

Sorry, but being down on anything american, has become a blood sport in some sects of French society.


OMFG .. and you can't say the same for American society vs the French?

You really are blinkered.
 
JGPH1A
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RE: LA Confidential (the French Have Gone Too Far)

Thu Jun 17, 2004 8:39 pm

Yes, I can confirm that all French people do all day is say mean things about Americans !!

Sorry to shatter your sacred preconceptions, L-188, but people here do actually have lives, and really don't care that much either way. The only American most French people have any feelings about at all is President Bush, and even then, it doesn't dominate conversation !

Really really honestly, please believe me, France does not hate America or Americans. I don't know why this fallacy keeps reappearing in this forum, it is a distressing, ill-informed and unnecessary prejudice.

I understand that Lance Armstrong is a highly respected athlete in this country - in fact he's the only cyclist I personally could name. I don't know any others.

Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
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sebolino
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RE: LA Confidential (the French Have Gone Too Far)

Fri Jun 18, 2004 12:42 am

AHHHHH L-188 and his paranoia, nice to see it again.

1) NUAir, L-188, you first should know that the book was written by a brit and a French.
So why are you talking about "The French" as if it was a national conspiration (perhaps because you are 2 childish whiners ?)

2) Lance Armstrong has never failed a drug test

HA HA HA

Like all the cyclists, he didn't fail like you say. But as all cyclists, he IS dopped, and everybody know it. Just people like you don't dare to admit it.

They are all dopped, and the proof is: The Tour de France is much harder, much longer than it was 40 years ago, but the guys are going always faster, and are never tired at the end of the day. Are they still human ?
 
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sebolino
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RE: LA Confidential (the French Have Gone Too Far)

Fri Jun 18, 2004 12:49 am

As KROC put it, a huge majority of French people love Lance. He is by far the most popular cyclist there

What a strange statement. Most of people I know don't give a shit about him or any other cyclist ...
 
CPH-R
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RE: LA Confidential (the French Have Gone Too Far)

Fri Jun 18, 2004 1:34 am

I don't get the point of this thread - Emma O'Reilly doesn sound French to me, it's being published in the US and all L'Express is guilty of, is to report that book is coming out.

And the French "are out to get him" how?
 
doug_or
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RE: LA Confidential (the French Have Gone Too Far)

Fri Jun 18, 2004 2:44 am

L-188, was that what you observed on your most recent visit to france?
When in doubt, one B pump off
 
aerobalance
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RE: LA Confidential (the French Have Gone Too Far)

Fri Jun 18, 2004 4:14 am

As an American I don't believe that all French people are anti-American.... Furthermore, why would the American Corvette team be so popular to the French people when the 24 hours of LeMans race rolls around? Now that would need some explaining since I don't even like the Corvette team!  Big grin

I have yet to visit France but I hope to some time soon.
"Sing a song, play guitar, make it snappy..."
 
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keesje
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RE: LA Confidential (the French Have Gone Too Far)

Fri Jun 18, 2004 4:17 am

A US book & US witness but the french are out to get him ..

??

What a enormous narrow way of thinking.

take care

of yourself
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
L-188
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RE: LA Confidential (the French Have Gone Too Far)

Fri Jun 18, 2004 5:32 am

You mean other then the Yellow headlights Doug_or?
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
pelican
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RE: LA Confidential (the French Have Gone Too Far)

Fri Jun 18, 2004 6:29 am

Sorry, but being down on anything american, has become a blood sport in some sects of French society.
One word: reciprocity

Sebolino you're right. The king of cyclist have to be the king of dope. The vast majority of professional cyclist are doped. Way too much "incidents" have shown that the cycling sport is a big drug lab. May the better guinea pig win.

pelican
 
JGPH1A
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RE: LA Confidential (the French Have Gone Too Far)

Fri Jun 18, 2004 3:56 pm

L-188 - yellow headlights ? Did you happen to spot President de Gaulle as well ? How long ago was your last visit L-188 ? Yellow headlights haven't been mandatory for YEARS (may even be illegal now).
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
L-188
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RE: LA Confidential (the French Have Gone Too Far)

Fri Jun 18, 2004 4:02 pm

Yeah it was about a decade ago.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
JGPH1A
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RE: LA Confidential (the French Have Gone Too Far)

Fri Jun 18, 2004 4:04 pm

Thought so. You should come again some time - we're not all unbathed communists, you know  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
L-188
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RE: LA Confidential (the French Have Gone Too Far)

Fri Jun 18, 2004 4:18 pm

Communists?

No, Socialists......well  Wink/being sarcastic
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
JGPH1A
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RE: LA Confidential (the French Have Gone Too Far)

Fri Jun 18, 2004 4:38 pm

Yeah, well, that's just how it works over here - its not so bad (except when you get your tax bill !) - and we don't make tourists pay tax (yet)
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
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sebolino
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RE: LA Confidential (the French Have Gone Too Far)

Fri Jun 18, 2004 4:40 pm

What is a yellow headlight ???
 
JGPH1A
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RE: LA Confidential (the French Have Gone Too Far)

Fri Jun 18, 2004 4:45 pm

Il veut dire les phares d'auto - il y a une fois elles fallaient etre jaunes en France, n'est-ce pas ? Mas pas maintenant...

('Scuse my French...)
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
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sebolino
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RE: LA Confidential (the French Have Gone Too Far)

Fri Jun 18, 2004 4:50 pm

Ah OK.

Yes, they are white for ten years or more. To conform with European rules.


JGPH1A, where do you come from ?
 
JGPH1A
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RE: LA Confidential (the French Have Gone Too Far)

Fri Jun 18, 2004 4:51 pm

All over the place (technically I'm English but with strong South African influences - I live in France at the moment).
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
L-188
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RE: LA Confidential (the French Have Gone Too Far)

Fri Jun 18, 2004 5:04 pm

Well in 1992-93 you could still spot all the French cars on the Autobahn at night, if you get my drift.

Actually I know one exception. We ordered replacement headlights for the HEMTT wrecker, and for some reason got sent yellow ones.

They went on of course.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
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sebolino
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RE: LA Confidential (the French Have Gone Too Far)

Fri Jun 18, 2004 6:10 pm

New bulbs were whites, but it was allowed to keep the yellow ones as long as they worked.
 
L-188
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RE: LA Confidential (the French Have Gone Too Far)

Fri Jun 18, 2004 7:16 pm

Yeah, that is the way they work it at most places, grandfather rights.

Still, you have got to think that the bulb makers wanted them all changed  Laugh out loud
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
zak
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RE: LA Confidential (the French Have Gone Too Far)

Fri Jun 18, 2004 7:17 pm

that makes me wonder, also remembering the times where yellow lights were a "driving roadblock" indicator, what was the reason for those urine headlights in the first place?
10=2
 
JGPH1A
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RE: LA Confidential (the French Have Gone Too Far)

Fri Jun 18, 2004 7:20 pm

I heard that yellow lights were less blinding, and also more penetrative in a fog. Don't know how true that is, though. I remember we took the family car from England across to France, way back when, and had to get special paint to colour the headlights, and little reflecting mirrors to deflect the light from shining into the eyes of oncoming traffic.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
L-188
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RE: LA Confidential (the French Have Gone Too Far)

Fri Jun 18, 2004 7:42 pm

I heard the blinding reason too.

Aftermarket foglights are often amber or yellow in color too, so there is probably some merit to that.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
NUAir
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RE: LA Confidential (the French Have Gone Too Far)

Fri Jun 18, 2004 9:21 pm

Sorry guys,

But I am French. Born in Grenoble and studied in Reims. This book was written by a Frenchman and co-edited by a brit and published in the UK (not even planned to be published in the states) but since the author is very much French it is a French book and L'Express a very serious and well respected magazine in France published the article (something that The Observer, BBC or The Guardian did not do).

The original question, I guess not too many people read the first post, was why the French continue to shut down an amazing athlete who has done so much for the sport...and cancer. This is not from the perspective of an American but from a Frenchman who is deeply annoyed by his own media. Of course I understand the hatred for Bush and some US foreign policies but to go to the same level and start to chase anything American is absurd and immature and puts us at the same level as those who re-named French fries freedom fries in the US.

And Sebolino, I'm sorry but Lance isn't doped like all of our great French racers. He pretty much died (which is what Kemo does to the body) and had to re-build himself but he did this on his bike so the only muscles he has are for cycling, with no excess weight. I have friends on the French Olympic rowing team who have gone to Denver to train with Lance and said he is just an extremely hard worker compared to any other athlete.
"How Many Assholes we got on this ship?" - Lord Helmet
 
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sebolino
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RE: LA Confidential (the French Have Gone Too Far)

Fri Jun 18, 2004 9:47 pm

NUAir,

Don't be sorry.

I think you're naive however if you think the top cyclists don't take illegal drugs.

start to chase anything American

That is really absurd.
When it was Virenque's turn to be in the spotlight about dopping, you probably weren't saying that French were chasing everything French, were you ? (Are you more paranoid about America than Americans ?)
 
ushermittwoch
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RE: LA Confidential (the French Have Gone Too Far)

Fri Jun 18, 2004 10:08 pm

Sebolino, you should know that NO cyclist has EVER doped.
It's totally normal to ride 200+ km day after day in scorching heat w/o the slightest sign of fatigue. At speeds of over 40 km/h on average of course. And you can still get a 1km long sprint at the end with speeds of around 60-65km/h.
Same goes for getting up 2000m paths at 30 km/h for about 6-7 hours.
Where have all the tri-jets gone...
 
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sebolino
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RE: LA Confidential (the French Have Gone Too Far)

Fri Jun 18, 2004 10:19 pm

You're right Usher, very normal.

I also heard a physician saying that some cyclists were (very normally) physically obliged to wake up in the night and make hard exercise to be able to continue sleeping. Probably due to an excess of testosterone ... Or perhaps not only ...  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
 
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sebolino
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RE: LA Confidential (the French Have Gone Too Far)

Fri Jun 18, 2004 10:28 pm

This book was written by a Frenchman and co-edited by a brit and published in the UK

The book was written by 2 journalists:

David Welsh (UK) and Pierre Ballester (FR).

Here is what I find: Perhaps that's the motivation behind the constant anti-Armstrong sniping from journalist David Walsh?

Come on guys, you should decide if it is an evil French anti-American book, or an English anti-Armstrong book. Make up your mind.
 
iakobos
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RE: LA Confidential (the French Have Gone Too Far)

Fri Jun 18, 2004 11:52 pm

Lance Armstrong, like every top athlete in every sport (involving primarily muscle performance) that makes them earn a living, takes "performance enhancement" ...additives.
What and how much is determined by the sports federations themselves.

The question is not are they doped or not, but where lies that tiny little difference between authorized enhancement and doping.

Much has been done in the last ten years, but some federations in particular are not very eager to go too fast and too far. Quite understandably they dont spit in their own soup.

What happens today is that top athletes have clever managers who have the right addresses (high-tech labs) and "preparation" schemes. Very symptomatic of this are the athletes who have a single target per season. They concentrate a one year preparation on a single event. If Lance is so naturally strong, why does he not win any other races than the Tour ?
Same goes for many others, including Olympic winners that only, and victoriously, appear at Olympics and World championships, and nothing else.
 
NUAir
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RE: LA Confidential (the French Have Gone Too Far)

Sat Jun 19, 2004 2:52 am

Iakobos,

He does win other races and has won 8 races over the last 2 years. But the Tour is by far the most well know race and where they really get the most sponsorship money so Lance has always made the Tour his primary goal. He also has an incredible team that helps him achieve his remarkable results in the Tour filled with some of the best climbers and sprinters in the sport.

All the talk on the difference between authorized enhancements and doping is ridiculous. The fact is that they take both urine and blood samples before and after every day in a stage race and any "performance enhancement" will show up in your blood or it really wasn't an enhancer, because as far as an indurance event like the Tour if it doesn't bring in more oxygen into your blood its not helping. Iakobos, if you are so confident that this can be done you should be writing to all the science, medical and sports journals to present your findings and cash in on the millions of dollars that you should be making.

Lance was not only tested for doping drugs but also for any other drugs and the only drugs that were found was small traces of codeine which is a common drug used to reduce pain and swelling. As for the killing your body every day of a race. Hell yeah its true and every night they are hooked up to an IV that helps them rebuild their body weight. I biked Alp D'Huez once and it almost killed me. But it can be done and if you train 8 hours a day 365 days a year for 22 years you could probably do the Tour as well. Don't discredit the hard work Lance has done to win the tour simply because of your own disenchantment with athletes from the Olympics who have recently been caught (by the way if all those great drugs exist that cant be detected how come their trainers, who work out of the same Olympic facility in Colorado as Lance, didn't make them use the same drugs that cant be detected?).

"How Many Assholes we got on this ship?" - Lord Helmet
 
CaptOveur
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RE: LA Confidential (the French Have Gone Too Far)

Sat Jun 19, 2004 3:00 am

I guess if chemo was a performance enhancing drug Lance might have been in trouble.. but otherwise people need to get over it.
Things were better when it was two guys in a dorm room.
 
srbmod
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RE: LA Confidential (the French Have Gone Too Far)

Sat Jun 19, 2004 4:44 am

I think that this woman is perhaps a spurned woman, and wants to get some revenge on Lance Armstrong.....
 
dl757md
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RE: LA Confidential (the French Have Gone Too Far)

Sat Jun 19, 2004 10:51 am

I think the French have a love hate relationship with Lance. He's established himself as one of the greats of the tour. They love him for that. In becoming one of the greats of the tour he has, some would say miraculously, overcome much that should have banished him to the shadows of mediocrity. Many people in France as well as the rest of the world can't understand how he could have done this without the help of banned drugs. They hate him for that. It's understandable if not agreeable. Take for instance here in the U.S. we have had many sports dynasties, the Yankees, the Lakers, Jeff Gordon, etc.. People here love those teams/competitors, but many also hate them for there success. We want to see somebody else win. We'll even go to the point of leveling baseless allegations against them because they are so good that they are beating others who cheat. This isn't a France against Lance thing. It's a human nature thing. Get over it. Let them say what they want to say. Lance will prove once again in July that his will, determination, and talent will carry him to a record 6th TdF win making him the undisputed king of The Tour de France.

Sebolino,

You have proven that being a French national doesn't mean one is a knowledgeable cycling fan.

They are all dopped, and the proof is: The Tour de France is much harder, much longer than it was 40 years ago, but the guys are going always faster, and are never tired at the end of the day. Are they still human ?

For the sake of comparison I took the total race distance and average speed of the 5 tours that Lance has won (99-03)and the 5 tours 40 previous(59-63) and averaged the 5 from each era.

Source "The Official Tour De France" Centennial 1903-2003
The results.

1959-1963
Average total distance 4,268Km
Winners average speed 36.498Kmh

1999-2003
Average total distance 3,487Km
Winners average speed 40.148Kmh

Two direct conclusions can be made.

1. 99-03 was on average 781Kms shorter than 59-63.
2. 3.65 Kmh faster average speed in 99-03 can easily be attributed to
better equipment, better road conditions, shorter length, and the
legitimate advances in sports physiology.

BTW The great French champion and first 5 time TdF winner Jacques Anquetil won three during this time period. There were doping scandals in those days too. But that doesn't make me think that Anquetil was doing it just because he won.

Sebolino. I'm sure that if somebody started a thread here about Karatedo doping you'd be eminently qualified to argue it. But when it comes to cycling you obviously have no clue. Apparently your French friends don't either. Many French, however, do.

Dl757md
757 Most beautiful airliner in the sky!
 
dl757md
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RE: LA Confidential (the French Have Gone Too Far)

Sun Jun 20, 2004 4:11 am

That is really absurd. When it was Virenque's turn to be in the spotlight about dopping, you probably weren't saying that French were chasing everything French, were you ?

The difference between what happened to Virenque and the continued baseless persecution of Lance Armstrong is that Virenque admitted he doped.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/other_sports/988095.stm

Some Virenque quotes from the article.
"I took doping substances. I didn't have the choice."

"I was the sheep - if they threw me out of the herd I was finished,"


Poor Richard, he didn't have a choice. OF COURSE HE HAD A CHOICE!!
He could have refused the drugs and sued the team for firing him for refusing to break the law.

Lance has way to much class to let himself be a "sheep". USPS was created for, and serves Lance Armstrong. Without Lance USPS (the team not the sponsorship) ceases to exist. Most athletes will not take drugs unless they feel, as Virenque did, that they don't have a choice. They have seen the deaths of too many riders due to drugs. Lance is completely in control of this aspect of his career. He doesn't have to comply if Johan Bruyneel were to direct him to take drugs. Quite the contrary, it is Johan who would be in danger of being of being "thrown out of the herd" were he even to suggest drug use. .
You see Lance has so much to lose by taking drugs. His respect, financial status, career, and his health. Lance Armstrong has faced death and beaten it back as few of us ever will. Surely he wouldn't risk his life for a bike race no matter how grand. If you don't agree, I feel sorry for your lack of faith in the human character. Because if Lance Armstrong isn't an inspiring human being......I don't know who is.

Dl757md



757 Most beautiful airliner in the sky!
 
ushermittwoch
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RE: LA Confidential (the French Have Gone Too Far)

Sun Jun 20, 2004 6:19 am

What a load of crap.

Anybody who knows anything about cycling knows that each and every racer uses some kind of performance enhancer.

And Lance Armstrong may be a lot of things but he surely isn't a class act.
Where have all the tri-jets gone...
 
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sebolino
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RE: LA Confidential (the French Have Gone Too Far)

Sun Jun 20, 2004 8:59 pm

1. 99-03 was on average 781Kms shorter than 59-63.
2. 3.65 Kmh faster average speed in 99-03 can easily be attributed to
better equipment, better road conditions, shorter length, and the
legitimate advances in sports physiology.


OK you're right, the distance is not increasing.

But, for the average speed, you're talking of an average on tours which were known to be full of junkies. It was already famous in th 60s that cyclists were taking illegal drugs.

Now, if you look at some tours' average speeds:

1) 25,678 km/h
2) 24,849 km/h
3) 27,481 km/h
10) 27,894 km/h
34) 31,412
35) 33,442
37) 32,718
51) 35,420
53) 36,760
57) 35,589
71) 34,906
77) 37,518
79) 39,504 (winner: Indurain)
82) 39,193 (winner: Indurain)
85) 40,160 (Pantani)
86) 40,276 (Armstrong)
90) 40,956 (Armstrong)


Considering that we know that Pantani wad dopped, as well as some top cyclists in the 60th, solve the equation.
Sorry, but I consider that a proof.





I'm sure that if somebody started a thread here about Karatedo doping you'd be eminently qualified to argue it.

Absolutely not. I do it without competition (which is not karatedo).  Smile/happy/getting dizzy


The difference between what happened to Virenque and the continued baseless persecution of Lance Armstrong is that Virenque admitted he doped.

I'm surprised. Virenque is known to have denied all the time, contrary to his team. I never heard that he admitted anything.


But I still insist, that admitted or not they (nearly) all take illegal stuff, and all the top cyclists take illegal stuff.
 
dl757md
Posts: 1483
Joined: Mon May 24, 2004 9:32 am

RE: LA Confidential (the French Have Gone Too Far)

Mon Jun 21, 2004 3:39 am

But, for the average speed, you're talking of an average on tours which were known to be full of junkies. It was already famous in th 60s that cyclists were taking illegal drugs.

I used the dates I did in rebuttal to your statement "The Tour de France is much harder, much longer than it was 40 years ago". The 5 most recent tours (all won by Lance which is who we're talking about anyway) and their counterparts from 40 years ago. You picked the number not me.

We could argue this point forever and I doubt we'd ever come to an agreement. Samples are frozen and saved for repeat testing when newer technology allows for the detection of previously undetectable substances.
But I doubt that if one of Lance's samples were tested with the latest tests available 50 years from now you would take that as proof he was clean. Here we have a basic legal principal, 'innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt'. You may have heard of it. Everyone, myself included, is not 100% sure Lance or any other top cyclist is not taking illegal substances, but until you show me reasonable evidence that he has. I'll back Lance Armstrong in this debate.

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