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MD-11 forever
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Tue Jul 20, 2004 3:54 pm

EMBQA

"Up until the Atomic bombings, the Emperor was, supposedly, kept 'in the dark' by the Militarist government and was unaware of how dire the situation really was. He was told that the Americans were close to defeat or that the war was going to turn against the Americans soon."

This is not true. I recommend you to read the biography of the emperor "Hirohito, the making of modern Japan". Then you will see that he wasn't kept in the dark to the extent you suggest. At the end of the war, his and his ministers main aim was to keep the monarchy and not to be part of the war criminal trials, nothing more nothing less. The surrender was more or less already clear BEFORE the A-bombings, just the government was struggling how to make the emperor announcing it without loosing his face....

Just to add my personal opinion on the main topic of this thread, go to the actual bombing sites in Hiroshima and Nagasaki before you call such persons "Heroes"............

Cheers, Thomas
 
kalakaua
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Tue Jul 20, 2004 7:11 pm

The attempted one by that one Japanese Major? It failed.

But imagine if it was successful...
 
pelican
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Tue Jul 20, 2004 7:34 pm

I wouldn't call him a hero. Fo me it's problematic to call someone a hero who killed hundreds of thousands civilians although he may have saved even more with his mission.

MD-11 forever, If it's true that the Japanese surrender was already decided before the bombs were dropped the judgment would be different.


Other topic:
Jan, was your last post addressed to me? I haven't claimed that the third Reich would have been able to build a nuclear bomb in 1945, but I were not to sure about it. There were more scientist than Hahn like Straßmann or Paul Hartek and Wilhelm Groth. And Haigerloch wasn't the sole research facility in Germany (Sperenberg and Jonastal).
This debate is out of topic and to end it: I'm glad that in the end they weren't successful.

pelican
 
Gman94
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Tue Jul 20, 2004 7:42 pm



So using that logic then the men who stormed the Normandy beaches, or fought for control of Monte Cassino or fought at Stalingrad are also not heroes then.

I'll quote you one famous military saying. 'Ours is not to reason why, ours is just to do and die'. You can not condemn a man for carrying out his orders during the darkest chapter of human history. I hold him in a just as high a regard as every other Allied serviceman in WWII.

[Edited 2004-07-20 13:10:46]
 
ly7e7
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Tue Jul 20, 2004 8:04 pm

You can not condemn a man for carrying out his orders during the darkest chapter of human history.

Can we please avoid such sentences? I don't think I need to explain why.

The men in Normandy and Stalingrad were part of a whole military effort. They did not carry out enormous attacks personally. There is a slight difference.
 
Gman94
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Tue Jul 20, 2004 8:10 pm

You can not condemn a man for carrying out his orders during the darkest chapter of human history.

Can we please avoid such sentences? I don't think I need to explain why.


Apologies I should of put Allied serviceman as I did later in my post.
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Tue Jul 20, 2004 8:22 pm

OK LY7E7,
according to your logic the Hiroshima/Nagasaki bombings were a private actions of the Enola Gay crew or Gen. Sweeney's crew? Nuts  Nuts  Nuts They were part of the "whole military effort" as well - as much as the last jeep driver at Tinian, a USS Indianapolis sailor dying in shark-infested Pacific, a B-29 mechanic, a Boeing factory janitor. It's just as Gman94 said: 'Ours is not to reason why, ours is just to do and die'

What you are saying is that a "private Smith" landing in Normandy is a hero and i.e. Dambusters crews are not? Only because private Smith could kill a handful of enemy soldiers, whereas the impact of the dam bombings were much more severe? It's pretty twisted, man...
 
airplay
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Tue Jul 20, 2004 8:35 pm

A true hero.

Hero? Although, he performed his duties, I'd hardly classify him as a hero. Furthermore, lets remember that there are several people who have been tried for war crimes that "were just following orders" when they slaughtered innocent civilians.

As far as bombing a few hundred thousand civilians in cities that were hardly strategic military targets, the bombing of Nagasaki and Hiroshima was mass murder plain and simple, and the US should have stood trial for attrocities.

Yes, Japan did strike first at Pearl Harbour and there were civilian casualties. Furthermore, the attack was arguably unprovoked, but the primary target was military.

He is a true hero. He helped prevent the Japanese from killing even more! He basically totally ended WWII.

Couldn't he have "totally ended WWII" by dropping the extremely destructive bomb on a military target or a benign area? The actions of this man have placed a certain amount of legitmacy on wide scale attacks on civilians during times of war.

In my opinion, there is very little difference between the 9/11 attacks and the slaughter at Nagasaki and Hiroshima at the hands of Mr. Sweeny, who was "just following orders".
 
greaser
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Tue Jul 20, 2004 8:59 pm

The U.S Desperately needed to end the war.. FRance was just about to recover, so was the rest of Europe. The Americans witnessed the ferocity of the Japanese on Iwo Jima, and knew it could not directly invade Japan. In Hind-sight, we can all say 'OH, we should not have done that, i'm suuree nomore would have been killed if we invaded..' Of course, none of us know. History has played itself and by no means was it a terrorist attack, it was the only sensible solution at the time.
Nagasaki and Hiroshima were not mass murders, tell that to the millions of dead Allied Soldiers who died due to conventional warfare in Europe and the Pacific. Morale was rather high, but people wanted the war to end, and so we did.Let me tell you if we wanted to murder we could have nuked Tokyo, but we didn't. Didn't think of that, did you?

In Regards to the Sweeny, he didn't asked to be a hero, he just turned out to be one. He by himself is no hero, he represents a land of the free and the home of the brave.
 
Boeing Nut
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Tue Jul 20, 2004 8:59 pm

US simply prefered to choose an easier way. Unfortunately it was an unhuman way.

Yea, and war is humane...........
 
airplay
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Tue Jul 20, 2004 9:21 pm

Nagasaki and Hiroshima were not mass murders, tell that to the millions of dead Allied Soldiers who died due to conventional warfare in Europe and the Pacific.

Um....were only "soldiers" killed in Nagasaki and Hiroshima? The killing of soldiers in times of war is not necessarily murder. The indiscriminate and deliberate killing of civilians IS.

Yea, and war is humane...........

War can be fought with honor in a humane manner. When a military force retaliates in such vicious terms with no consideration for civilian lives, they reduce themselves to the lowest common denominator and become true "terrorists".

The bombings of Nagasaki and Hiroshima were terrorist acts in my opinion.


 
Gman94
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Tue Jul 20, 2004 9:45 pm

So what your saying is that civilian lives are valued more highly than the lives of soldiers. Aren't they both human beings? Taking the British army which was mostly made of the average person on street your bank managers, bakers, accountants etc. Because these guys either joined or got conscripted into the armed services in the defence of their country there lives are valued less than civilians.

The Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings are acts of terrorism and not acts of war. I wonder if you could reclassify some more events in WWII for me?

The bombing of London, act of war or terrorism?
The bombing of Coventry, act of war or terrorism?
The bombing of Caen, act of war or terrorism?

More people were killed in the battle of Okinawa then were killed in the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I think it's safe to assume that the casualties that would of occurred in a full scale invasion of the Japanese mainland would of been mind boggling. That's the figures Truman would of been given when he was weighing up whether to use the a-bomb or not. As people have said earlier you take into consideration the welfare of your own side ahead of that of your enemy.
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Tue Jul 20, 2004 9:55 pm

I just hope he won't rest in peace.

Juan
SKBO


Well, Juan, despite you're cruelness, he is resting in peace, because he served his country well, helped it win a war, and had the nations' gratitude for doing so. He's earned a peaceful rest, and he has it now, despite the idiocies of people like yourself.

The men in Normandy and Stalingrad were part of a whole military effort. They did not carry out enormous attacks personally. There is a slight difference.

That's an incredibly naive statement. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were for the same reason as Normandy, or Iwo Jima, or Bastogne, or North Africa-to win the war. Why does that escape you? And it so happens that the bombings ended the war-it was an extension of the entire free (and part of the not-so-free) world, to wipe out the aggression by the Axis powers, namely Germany and Japan, who had warred on half the world.

To separate Hiroshima and Nagasaki from that is naive, and is historically very wrong. They were part of the same effort to win a war thrust on the world.

As far as bombing a few hundred thousand civilians in cities that were hardly strategic military targets, the bombing of Nagasaki and Hiroshima was mass murder plain and simple, and the US should have stood trial for attrocities.

Right. It's war, Airplay-not a gentleman's game. There's a difference, in my mind, between the gassing of people, as Hitler did, and the deaths of civilians in the course of the war. You had terrible fire bombings in Tokyo, Dresden, and somewhere in Britian-I cannot remember the city. Those weren't war crimes, and neither was Hisroshima and Nagasaki. Not by any stretch. So save your post-modern sensibilities, instead of trying to apply them to a situation you don't understand.

Yes, Japan did strike first at Pearl Harbour and there were civilian casualties. Furthermore, the attack was arguably unprovoked, but the primary target was military.

And the primary target, though mostly civilian in nature, had a military purpose-to end the war that, as you pointed out, Japan started. And the attack on Pearl wasn't "arguably" unprovoked. It WAS unprovoked, period. Again, your revisionism, in order to paint the US as the bad guy here, is foolish, naive, and makes you look silly.

The actions of this man have placed a certain amount of legitmacy on wide scale attacks on civilians during times of war.

Huh? What do you call The Blitz, by the Luftwaffe, a few years BEFORE The bomb? And Dresden, and Tokyo? Germany began the practice with The Blitz-targeting mostly civilian areas, and the Allies responded in kind. That all happened BEFORE Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The precedent had already been sent. This was but an extension of that precedent.

War can be fought with honor in a humane manner.

There's nothing humane about war. If you REALLY believe that, you're naive to a terrible extent, Airplay.
 
Gman94
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Tue Jul 20, 2004 9:59 pm

 
Schoenorama
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Tue Jul 20, 2004 9:59 pm

L410Turbolet:

"Schoenorama, I'm saying that he was a hero at least as much as any Allied aviator, sailor, infantrymen that risked and many actually made the ultimate sacrifice for us, even for those like you, who sit around 60 years later and with a illegitimate feeling of moral supremacy point fingers and make judgments because they think they "know better"."

Care to point out, Turbolet, where exactly in this whole argument I give you the idea I am feeling morally superior? You can't because I haven't. The problem with you is that you believe you can read my mind, but the truth is that you haven't got a [email protected] clue what this whole argument is all about!!!

Do you know me? Do you know my background? You don't, so stop drawning wrong conclusions on MY thoughts and MY opinions, will you? You're talking complete bull0cks! If you really want to have a serious discussion with me, try and stick to the facts and the things I have actually said rather than what you BELIEVE I am or stand for, will you?


"Schoenorama, that was a quote from a serious study dealing with casualty estimates during invasion to Japan - what is your point then?"

Because you were basically doing the same thing as you were accusing me of: judging the past as if you were an expert on the subject.

You know what, I wasn't judging the past. I was only judging the certainty many people still have about events that never occurred. That and only that was my whole point and you completely missed it!

 
N6376M
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Tue Jul 20, 2004 10:03 pm

I think this thread misses the point. General Sweeny's heroism was no greater than the heroism displayed by millions of other service men and women through the world and through out history.

He accomplished his mission in a professional and successful manner and risked his life so that other's might live. General Sweeny didn't have a say in the policy discussions that led up to the dropping of the bomb - he executed it policy that was developed by others.

He went to war to defend the US against Japanese aggression. We were at war and without debate, the dropping of the bomb brought the war to a quicker end than would otherwise been the case.

 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Tue Jul 20, 2004 10:07 pm

Latest during WW1 with the advent of the heavy bomber did the concept of total war appear and the distinction between combatants and civilians as completely uninvolved persons disaapear. This concept was called total war, and included the home front as well as the frontline combat troops.
This was a concept followed by all powers in WW2.
Besides the radiological effects (which in most cases were only studied and documented as a result of the nuclear bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki), a thousand bomber attack with a mix of incendary and explosive bombs results in much the same damage (see Rotterdam, Warsaw, London, Coventry in 1940 and Hamburg, Berlin, Schweinfurt, Dresden, Tokyo, Yokohama, Osaka.... later during the war).
Also, since only two bombs have been exploded by this time, the first one under top secret conditions, the second one on the Allied side only witnessed by two aircraft crews, the crew of "Bockscar" couldn´t know anything about the effects of the bomb on a city.
I wouldn´t consider this pilot to be a hero (the word hero has been used too much for my taste), because he didn´t risk his life knowingly (the Americans had the air superiority over Japan by this time), but he wasn´t worse than any other Allied combat soldier during his time. You could as well blame an artillery gunner or the pilot or bombardier of a Lancaster bomber.

Jan
 
ly7e7
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Tue Jul 20, 2004 11:16 pm

L410Turbolet, I got your point.
 
JUANR
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Tue Jul 20, 2004 11:18 pm

Well, Juan, despite you're cruelness, he is resting in peace, because he served his country well, helped it win a war, and had the nations' gratitude for doing so. He's earned a peaceful rest, and he has it now, despite the idiocies of people like yourself.

Did you asked him? Anyway real cruelness is to be able to live and die in peace after have killed more than 150.000 innocent civilians in just a couple of seconds, perhaps for his pride and his nation's pride he wouldn't say that he had "guilt feeling" or that he was ashamed of what he did, but certainly you must be mad, truly brainwahsed to pull the trigger, kill 150K people and keep your life going on as if nothing had happened.

And don't take it personally those "idiocies" of what you talk about are shared by most of the people in the world, unfortunately history is wrote by those who win the wars, and in this case I find the nuke of Hiroshima and Nagazaki as an inhuman acts of crime as the holocaust and certainly those involved had to be prosecuted as were the Nazis in the Nuremberg trial.

Juan
SKBO
 
ly7e7
Topic Author
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Tue Jul 20, 2004 11:27 pm

Juan,

As you can understand from my previous posts in this thread, I have serious doubts about the necessity of use of atomic weapons.
However, and despite the controversy , Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not war crimes, as the bombardments of German cities. That war HAD to be won by almost any means.
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Tue Jul 20, 2004 11:31 pm

Anyway real cruelness is to be able to live and die in peace after have killed more than 150.000 innocent civilians in just a couple of seconds, perhaps for his pride and his nation's pride he wouldn't say that he had "guilt feeling" or that he was ashamed of what he did, but certainly you must be mad

Whatever. He helped bring to a close a war that Japan started; a war where Japan brutally murdered millions of civilians in Indo-China from 1931 until 1945. It stopped a war that would have continued for 1 or 2 more years, resulting in more death than the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki totaled.

And I have no guilt feelings over dropping the bomb. It's nothing to celebrate, but it was war, and war, as you obviously have not a clue, is an ugly, heartless, cruel business. But it was a war thrust on us, and we did what we had to do to end it. You're one of these revisionists hacks, and you have absolutely no clue to what you're typing. Again, you're applying your 21st Century pacifistic/anti-nuclear view, to an even that took place in the shadow of 50+ million deaths in a 6-year world war.

And don't take it personally those "idiocies" of what you talk about are shared by most of the people in the world..

Actually, they're only shared by revisionists, who try to find fault in everything the U.S. does, and don't look at history for what it is. Most people in the world, who know beans about what they talk about, know that the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, while horrible, saved a few million lives, and ended a long, bloody war. War IS hell, but to people like you, it's only a way to rewrite history to make the good guys look bad, and the bad guys look like victims.

I find the nuke of Hiroshima and Nagazaki as an inhuman acts of crime as the holocaust and certainly those involved had to be prosecuted as were the Nazis in the Nuremberg trial.

Well, coming from the source-you-I don't put much stock in it. Then I guess we should have also tried those who bombed Coventry, and Dresden and Tokyo, where the loss of life was almost just as great. But you see, you don't understand warfare; you don't understand that if you war on someone, you take a combatants chances. You don't hold back on a new weapon that could stop the war, because some idiot in Columbia 60 years later might question you or call you a criminal. You do what you have to do to 1. save your own people first, and 2. end the conflict as quick as possible.

I know, it's a crime that President Truman thought of the American people, and the GI's first, and not some bleeding-heart sentiment for the enemy ahead of that, but he was right, and for someone, 60 years after the fact, who doesn't know dick about the Second World War, or the sacrifices made by nations' all over the world to stop Germany and Japan, is an insult to the millions who lost their lives to defeat those two nations and their allies, and to the generations who followed, who were allowed to live because the war ended when it did.

Now, take your bleeding-heart, pacifistic, revisionist history, and stick it where the sun don't shine. It may make you feel better ,but it doesn't change the truth. Americans don't need to be lectured by a 22 year old in Columbia about what happened 60 years ago to save American lives.
 
N6376M
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Tue Jul 20, 2004 11:38 pm

Alpha1 - you've done it now. A couple of weeks ago I made a crack about a teenager and it almost got me banned. You've now violated the non-agism rule and the cracking on third world country rules in one sentence.

In the fantasy world of a.net people like to go around thinking that everyone's opinion is equally valid.

Just wait until the mods catch wind of this.
 
JUANR
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Wed Jul 21, 2004 12:04 am

But it was a war thrust on us, and we did what we had to do to end it. You're one of these revisionists hacks, and you have absolutely no clue to what you're typing. Again, you're applying your 21st Century pacifistic/anti-nuclear view, to an even that took place in the shadow of 50+ million deaths in a 6-year world war.

Alpha, you are taking this personally, of course I have a clue of what I am typing, I live in a country that has been in a war for more than 40 years, in a country that has more than 40.000 deaths every year, where there are more than 3000 people kidnapped for more than 2, 3 5 years, I have never felt what is like to live in peace even when I had the fortune to be born and live in the capital city where we do not feel the war that close, but that contact with war that I have gave me a clear view that 1. Even with all the cruelness that surrounds a war, still war has rules that must be followed. And 2. A War can't be stopped by any meaning, there will always be wounds that won't heal and if it is done in such dramatic way, the wounds are going to be bigger and will take more time to heal.

I am not a pacifist in anyway, antinuclear yes, sure. I am not a revisionist either, perhaps it has to be done but that doesn't make the ones that done it heroes or better persons. I am not saying either that Germans or Japanese were better than US-French,British.

I understand that history can't be changed and that the situation in 1945 is almost completely out of any of our perception.

Now imagine that in 100-200 years all the world as we know it today has changed and the world's superpower is Muslim, they will write history the way US has done in the XX century, the British did it in the XIX, French in XVIII, Spanish in XVI-XVII...etc, they will write that the pilots that crashed the planes on 9-11 were heroes, and from their point of view that is true. Does it make the tragedy of 9-11 an act of heroism per se, not at all, I am really sorry to do this comparison, but that is the way I see it from a neutral point of view on both situations.

Juan
SKBO

P.S. By the way, I am 25 not 22 Big grin
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Wed Jul 21, 2004 12:25 am

Alpha, you are taking this personally..

That's where you're wrong. I grew up around history-my father taught high school history for 30 years, and he imparted on me the imporatance of knowing and maintianing history-good and bad. I just think you're views are post-modern crap, born of ignorance, and born of a desire to disparage the U.S. whenever you can.

I didn't serve in the war, so it's not personal, believe me.

Even with all the cruelness that surrounds a war, still war has rules that must be followed.

Right there, you show abject igonrance. WAR HAS NO RULES. War is hell, and you do what is necessary to win. In 1945, long before you were born, it was necessary to drop two, brand-new type of weapons on Japan, in order to get them to try and surrender. It worked. Case closed.

I am not a revisionist either..

Sure you are. You're trying to revise history to paint a necessary event as some kind of war crime that should be punished. With an invasion looming, anyone with a shred of common sense uses a new, powerful weapon that might bring the enemy-that started the war, I might add-to surrender, and end the conflict before it can go further.

So what you're writing is revisionism. It's trying to portray somethng that was the right decision as some kind of wrong, which it wasn't. That's revisionism.

perhaps it has to be done but that doesn't make the ones that done it heroes or better persons.

It wasn't about becoming heroes, or making one better persons. War isn't about expanding one's horizons to better oneself personally, it's about defeating an enemy that warred on you, and who would not have surrendered, unless this even took place. It was necessary. It was a horrible event, but it saved a bigger horror in 1946.

Again, such revisionism is revolting. It's nauseating. No one that I've ever spoken to celebrates the bombing of Hiroshima or Nagasaki. They do stand to the testement of what could still happen to mankind in an age when these weapons exist by the thousands. But in 1945, after 6 bloody years of war, the necessity of those bombings is so clear to me, and to anyone who understands and appreciated the history of that time.

And again, you go tell those who's family trees were extended, in both Japan and the U.S., of how cruel those bombings are. There are quite a few, I would imagine, on this board, who would not be alive today, had the bombs not been dropped, and the invasion of Japan, which, despite the naiveness of Schoenerama, would have definitely killed a few more million, had proceeded in late 1945, mid-1946. Sometimes, an evil is necessary to prevent a bigger evil. This was such a case, and no bleeding-heart revisionism changes that sobering fact.
 
JUANR
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Wed Jul 21, 2004 12:49 am

Right there, you show abject igonrance. WAR HAS NO RULES. War is hell, and you do what is necessary to win. In 1945, long before you were born, it was necessary to drop two, brand-new type of weapons on Japan, in order to get them to try and surrender. It worked. Case closed.

WAR HAS RULES! you are the ignorant here. I am starting to think that YOU think that when it is about US anything necessary to win is welcome but when it is about any other party it is not. Saddam used brand new biological weapons against kurdos, it worked, case closed? After a few years you invaded his country and now he will be prosecuted, besides other things, for the use of a weapon in a war; and you still think war has no rules.!!!

Juan
SKBO
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Wed Jul 21, 2004 1:03 am

WAR HAS RULES!

So, you tell me something. Put yourself, for a moment in the shoes of one Harry S. Truman, 33rd President of the United States for a moment.

It's July 1945. Germany is vanquished, but Japan fights on, with ever increasng desperation, using ariel suicide attacks on warships; using banzai charges that kill almost every attacker; civilians on Islands like Saipan are hurling themselves from cliffs into the ocean below, when U.S. troops advance.

You are in the meat-and-potato's stage of planning the full invasion of Japan. Seeing what you've seen on islands like Okinawa, Iwo Jima, Saipan, and others, you know the enemy, and it's civilians, will fight to the death, with this invasion. You know this because that's all they've done during the war.
You know this invasion will kill hudreds of thousdands, at least, of the soldiers your are sending to that invasion, and most likely, a few million of the enemy in the process.

You are then told of this weapon that has been in the works. A bomb powerful enough to destroy a city, that makes further resistance futile. You know, that if it works, and is dropped on a city or two, there is a good chance the enemy will surrender, and the war will end. You know, that if you don't at least TRY, the invasion will go ahead, and a few more million will be added to the over 50 million already slaughtered from one end of the globe to the other.

Plus, you took an oath of office, only two months before to, as President, to preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States, and, by definition, the United States and it's people.

Now, you go tell me what the "rules of war" say there? If we think like you, the war drags on, when it could have ended. If we think objetively, with an eye for ending the war, we do what Truman did, and you use this new weapon, and try to force Japan to surrender.

Now, tell me again about your "rules". Revisionists like yourself would gladly go back in time, sacrifice somewhere around a million more Americans, and a few million more Japanese, simply to pontificate about the "rules" of war.

Well, Truman lived in a real world, Thank God, and he did the right thing. And all your crying doesn't change the fact.
 
JUANR
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Wed Jul 21, 2004 4:04 am

Anyway, I wouldn't be proud of winning a war in a such coward way.

Juan
SKBO
 
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Goose
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Wed Jul 21, 2004 4:57 am

Anyway, I wouldn't be proud of winning a war in a such coward way.

Spilling additional blood and sending more men into the meat-grinder, in order to accomplish a simple objective, when there's a single weapon you could use to accomplish the same.... may not be cowardly, but it certainly is stupid.

The Second World War was a war of attrition; it was a war for survival. It was either us or them - we weren't waging war with the Japanese or the Germans because they were an annoyance which we could ignore or contain them.... we were waging war with them because they wanted to destroy us.
 
airplay
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Wed Jul 21, 2004 6:58 am

Alpha,

You used several tired old arguments and labels in replying to my statements. However, in my opinion you didn't offer a reasonable argument that negates anything I said.

If you think war has no rules, then lets hope you never achieve a position of power where you can excercise your belief.
 
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Goose
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Wed Jul 21, 2004 7:15 am

If you think war has no rules, then lets hope you never achieve a position of power where you can excercise your belief.

Although this comment was directed at Alpha, I share his belief that War, really, has no rules - only guidelines that you hope to follow if you're in a position of clear advantage or in a "limited" conflict. That type of conflict would include Korea, Vietnam, and the Second Gulf War. The Second World War was very different than any of these.

When you're fighting a war of attrition and survival, like the Second World War was, you figure out real quick how far you're willing to go to ensure your nation's survival - "Rules of War" be damned.
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Wed Jul 21, 2004 8:22 am

Alpha,
you definitely have my respect for your patience...

L410
 
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Wed Jul 21, 2004 10:24 am

When you're fighting a war of attrition and survival, like the Second World War was, you figure out real quick how far you're willing to go to ensure your nation's survival - "Rules of War" be damned.

OK then. Why is what Al Queda does considered "terrorism"? How about Palestinians and Israelis? Who is right and who is wrong? Who is good and who is bad? How do you tell if there are no rules?

How are the things Hitler did classifed as attrocities? Is is just because he was on the "other" side?

I simply don't agree with the "no rules in war" crowd. Rules do exist and countries like the US are committed to bringing war criminals to justice. So why the double standard here?

 
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Goose
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Wed Jul 21, 2004 10:40 am

OK then. Why is what Al Queda does considered "terrorism"? How about Palestinians and Israelis? Who is right and who is wrong? Who is good and who is bad? How do you tell if there are no rules?

Let me re-post this part of my post you originally quoted;

I share his belief that War, really, has no rules - only guidelines that you hope to follow if you're in a position of clear advantage or in a "limited" conflict. That type of conflict would include Korea, Vietnam, and the Second Gulf War. The Second World War was very different than any of these.

There you go. When you're in the superior position, you follow the rules. When you're on the losing side, you often don't - you're fighting for survival. When both sides are easily matched and the War hangs in the balance, both sides will commit to whatever it takes to win, as, effectively, both sides are fighting for survival.


How are the things Hitler did classifed as attrocities? Is is just because he was on the "other" side?

You nailed it. As Hitler himself said, "Success is the sole earthly judge of right and wrong."
 
garnetpalmetto
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Wed Jul 21, 2004 11:15 am

Why is what Al Queda does considered "terrorism"?

Because most political scientists are now stepping away from attaching values to what terrorism is and defining it as attacks by non-state actors using indiscriminant means on noncombatants.
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Wed Jul 21, 2004 11:59 am

Anyway, I wouldn't be proud of winning a war in a such coward way.

Oh, you'd rather the U.S. sacrifice a million of it's own sons, and a few million more Japanese, just to make you like them better? You'd rather we had let another 1 to 2 years of war rage on, after the world had been through 6 already.

"Sadist" comes to mind when I think of such a statement by you. And that's the nicest thing I can think of.

I'm happy we ended the war when we did, so it didn't go further, Juan. You, on the other hand, have these naive, imbecilic fantasies of how war is some kind of game with "rules". It doesn't work that way.

And tell me, Juan, once more, you're not a revisionist. You're the walking description of it.
 
JetService
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki

Wed Jul 21, 2004 1:17 pm

Other than the fact that the A-bomb requires less hardware to deploy and was able to deliver an unthinkable surrender, what the hell's the difference with 200K perishing from a couple of A-bombs vs. 200K from conventional bombings? The reason I ask is that no one here complaining about the A-bombs seem to have a problem with death by TNT.
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Wed Jul 21, 2004 1:24 pm

But JetService, killing them with the TNT is within the "rules" of war.

Signed,

Juan
SKBO

(dripping with sarcasm)
 
MATURRO727
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki

Wed Jul 21, 2004 2:01 pm

Hey !


Alpha 1:


I think you have to stay calm ! Take it easy, this is not a fight this is a forum so please behave your selve



MATURRO727
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Wed Jul 21, 2004 6:11 pm

The main difference are the long term effects through direct irradiation and radioactive fallout, e.g. genetic mutations causing lots of handicapped babies later and cancer among the survivors. In short, after an TNT explosion usually the thing is over, but the after effects of a nuke continue for decades, like contaminated, unusable land.
But most of these effects were unknown at this time andf only became known through study of the effects of those two bombs AFTER WW2.

Jan
 
Banco
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Wed Jul 21, 2004 6:31 pm

Just on the "war has rules" thing:

In 1940, following the fall of France and the evacuation at Dunkirk, Britain was primed for a German invasion. The army had left virtually all its heavy equipment behind in France, so the prevention of invasion rested on the RAF maintaining control of the skies, and the navy's ability to stop any invasion force.

Had the Germans managed to land in Kent and Sussex, there was no real army to stop them, which is why the Battle of Britain was so important. The General Staff were perfectly well aware of this, and so had to think what to do if the Germans landed.

Recent evidence shows that their tactic was that if the Germans landed, they would be hit with chemical warfare. The entire stocks of mustard gas and anything else we had would be dumped on them.

Chemical warfare. In breach of just about every "rule" of war. I wonder, if, had it happened that way, we'd be having this conversation about a British breach of these "rules".
 
Kay
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Wed Jul 21, 2004 6:35 pm

LY7E7,

great signature!!!!
 Smile

kay
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Wed Jul 21, 2004 6:43 pm

Banco,

Don´t forget about the homeguard (or LDV, Local Defence Volunteers as they were called at this time) armed with the infamous pikes, lemonade bottles filled with white phosporus, benzene and rubber solution, "sticky", nitroglycerine filled bombs and the other homeguard horrors (there were not enough rifles available at this time, and those available were given to regular army units first).

Jan

Edit for typo

[Edited 2004-07-21 11:45:17]
 
Banco
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Wed Jul 21, 2004 6:52 pm

Indeed Jan.

It just re-inforces the point that (in reality) the British wouldn't have had a prayer using conventional defensive methods. Had tactical nuclear weapons been available at the time, you can be damn sure they'd have used them as well.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Wed Jul 21, 2004 7:04 pm

BTW, there existed a secret army, recruited from the ranks of the LDV, which were then trained for guerilla warfare against the invaders, with weapons caches all over the island. Back in 1940, most of the training was done locally, with mixed results. The best school, later taken over by the SOE AFAIK, was run by a former commander of the British Brigade of the International Brigades of the Spanish Civil War. Also George Orwell was involved in setting up Local Defense Units (Remember that at this time, the only British with serious combat experience against the Germans were the Spanish Civil War veterans, but, being mostly Communists or Socialists, they were considered politically unreliable and could never expect to be promoted past the rank of a corporal if they joined the regular army).

Jan
 
go canada!
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Wed Jul 21, 2004 8:26 pm

Banco you are correct in your statements, Britain would have used chemical weapons and if it had had a nuclear device it would have used it.

Lets be clear on a few things here

1)Japan started the war, it massacred, it raped, it destroyed as manay nations as possible. It had no regard for human life.
2)The bombs dropped caused loss of life at a lower rate than an invasion would have done. I find it hard that there are people out there who would have perferred an invasion which would have cost more lives, more butchery and more death and destruction. Remember Japan had no morals and did not fight a clean war.
3)If I was a eldery man reading this website and I had fought in WW2 against the perils of nazi germany and imperialist japan, frankly I would be ashamed by what I have read and insulted.
4)Those against the bomb on this site are also in the majority of cases anti american. There is a deep cancer on airliners.net which revises all parts of history and blames the western world for it(particulary america and britain).
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Wed Jul 21, 2004 8:58 pm

Just to go back to a point made early in this thread...

" I can't stand this whole "we are all people" line that many Europeans use"

RJ - if we are not ALL people, what are we ? Do some people have greater value ("ubermenschen") and others less ("untermenschen") ? If that is the case, who gets to decide who is what ? For a passionate supporter of Israel, your line of thinking is at best very surprising, and at worst, downright disturbing.

I hope that in this day and age, after all that has happened in the last 100 years, civilised people will at least recognise that the lives of all individuals have an equivalent value. "Collateral damage" is a very sick way of describing people dying - at least accord them the dignity of regretting their deaths.

The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, however regrettable or justifiable, is historical fact, for better or for worse - revising history won't change the facts - hundreds of thousands of non-combatants died horribly in about 60 seconds. But hundreds of thousands of combatants didn't have to later on. You can't call it either way - shit happens, learn from it.

 
iakobos
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Wed Jul 21, 2004 9:33 pm

Go Canada!
If you suggest to put us back on the line (re. "let us be clear"), I propose the following changes

1/ militarily, Japan started the war in the Asia/Pacific regions.
Japanese imperialistic and military doctrines had little of no respect for earthly live, including their own.
2/ the A/H bombs caused many casualties, mostly civilians, but it can be seen as a likely probability that not using them and ending the war through conventional means (as understaood at that time) would have been even more costly in lives on both sides.
3/ surviving witnesses would most probably not feel uncomfortable with the idea that the subject could be discussed, it is also most likely that they thought about it, even well before internet existed.
4/ if everyone was transported back to '45, we all would have agreed on the bombs being used.

annex: there is no electronic cancer.
History is and has to be discussed in the light of the present time and knowledge, preferably in an opiniated and unpassionated way.
May all anti-americans and/or anti-British raise their hands please ?
Two things IMO, the vast majority of fellow members here are not anti-american at all.
Do not confuse the country's general values with the words and deeds of a few citizens temporarily in power; being the No1 world power makes the US the main string puller on the world scene, at times dictating its will, and at times even by force, so it seems absolutely normal to be the main subject of critics and analysis.
Perhaps it is unfair and we should now concentrate on Liechtenstein, Tuvalu or Swaziland ?
 
garnetpalmetto
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Thu Jul 22, 2004 12:11 am

Juan's obsession with the "rules of war" are quite humorous as he seems to believe that they're some monolithic thing that all sides MUST follow. The "rules of war" have been violated as frequently as any other rule or law, but more importantly they've evolved. Once upon a time, the idea of fighting on a Sunday was blasphemous. The British decried American guerilla tactics during our war for independence and believed that Colonial snipers targeting British officers was cowardly and ungentlemanlike. After all - the rules of war at that time stated that two sides would stand in neat, straight lines and take turns trading shots at each other until one side capitulated.

During the American Civil War, General William T. Sherman violated the "rules of war" through the destruction of Southern infrastructure, the salting of fields, and the immolation of Southern cities (Savannah, Atlanta, and Columbia being prime examples). The result? The South didn't even THINK of rebelling in the immediate post-war period.

During the First World War, the German use of U-Boats was seen to be such a violation of the rules of war that the British were highly reluctant to even pursue submarine technology.

Rules of war are a nice thing to have - they ensure POWs are treated somewhat decently, but the goal of any nation in war is to win and you don't do that by holding back everything in fear of a civilian death - you strive to preserve as many non-combatant lives as possible, but you still go all out, especially if, as in World War II, you were fighting for the survival of your way of life.
 
Banco
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Thu Jul 22, 2004 3:16 am

The British decried American guerilla tactics during our war for independence and believed that Colonial snipers targeting British officers was cowardly and ungentlemanlike.

I always knew you lot were a bunch of cheats, and now you've admitted it!  Big grin
 
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Goose
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Sun Jul 25, 2004 2:01 am

Rules of war are a nice thing to have - they ensure POWs are treated somewhat decently

The Japanese showed during the Bataan Death March that even rules of war wouldn't stop them from committing atrocities against captured enemy troops.

As I said, there are no rules in War. There's guidelines, which are only really followed if you enter the war in a clear advantage over your adversary (the US in the First and Second Gulf Wars, etc.)....

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