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JAL777
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EU Government Flip-Flops On Security Fence

Tue Aug 17, 2004 10:26 pm

THE NEW WORLD DISORDER
EU to build wall after blasting Israel's
'European hypocrisy is as rank as it is blatant'

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: August 17, 2004
1:00 a.m. Eastern


By Aaron Klein
© 2004 WorldNetDaily.com





Just one month after the U.N. and EU launched a furious campaign against Israel's security fence, culminating in the International Court of Justice ruling that the fence is illegal, the EU announced it's planning to build a separation fence of its own, and invited Israel to participate in the construction.

The fence is being built to separate recently added EU members Poland and Hungary from their new neighbors – Russia, Belarus and Ukraine. The EU said the fence is necessary to "prevent the free movement of migrants seeking to enter" EU territory.

Israeli companies that specialize in the construction of fences and security systems will participate in tenders to build hundreds of miles of fences along the EU's new eastern border.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=39998

[Edited 2004-08-17 15:28:38]
 
JGPH1A
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RE: EU Government Flip-Flops On Security Fence

Tue Aug 17, 2004 10:32 pm

The difference being, the EU will building the fence ON EU TERRITORY ! And will allow anyone with a legally obtained Schengen visa to pass through normal border crossings.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
QIguy24
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RE: EU Government Flip-Flops On Security Fence

Tue Aug 17, 2004 10:49 pm

I strongly oppose this. We should not have a big wall/fence around Europe.
I don't like the wall in Israel and I sure as heck don't want a wall in Europe either.


[Edited 2004-08-17 16:05:37]
 
Andreas
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RE: EU Government Flip-Flops On Security Fence

Tue Aug 17, 2004 10:59 pm

Interesting...why can't we use the east German construction companies or, since they all went belly up, at least their know-how, which should be good!! I personally tried to hammer out a few pieces of the famous Wall in Berlin...and boy, was it hard...purest German quality.  Big grin

As for your fierce attack of the EU on Israel...grow up! I can't tell you how disinterested most people have become in the last months and years. Both sides are killing each other and nothing can stop them. I can't remember any such official fierce attack on Israel!

And besides: Who gives a crap what a bunch of 400mn. Eurowhining cheese-eating surrender monkeys says about that wall? The American government doesn't, the israeli government doesn't, so who cares!

Does that sound sarcastic? You bet! I'm waiting for the next thread that starts on a Frontpagemag idiocy...haven't had that for a while...

[Edited 2004-08-17 16:00:55]
I know it's only VfB but I like it!
 
QIguy24
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RE: EU Government Flip-Flops On Security Fence

Tue Aug 17, 2004 11:09 pm

Hey Andreas,

Im sure JAL777 just read this thread and had to hurry up to get a little distraction from it  Big grin

https://www.airliners.net/discussions/non_aviation/read.main/616012/
 
JAL777
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RE: EU Government Flip-Flops On Security Fence

Tue Aug 17, 2004 11:13 pm

I was only levelling out the playing field... seems like lots of people spend all day searching the internet for articles that suit their own agenda, so I wanted to try it out.  Smokin cool
 
Scorpio
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RE: EU Government Flip-Flops On Security Fence

Tue Aug 17, 2004 11:13 pm

Does anyone have anything close to a reliable source on this? I've looked through this site, and it clearly does not count as such. With beautiful columns like 'Euro-Nazis alive and well' and more of that shit...
 
Klaus
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RE: EU Government Flip-Flops On Security Fence

Tue Aug 17, 2004 11:23 pm

The ICJ ruling was exlusively against the portions of the israeli wall that were built on palestinian land!

Sometimes it helps reading about the actual details rather than just the big-lettered headlines...!  Insane
 
Andreas
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RE: EU Government Flip-Flops On Security Fence

Tue Aug 17, 2004 11:23 pm

Just brilliant, JAL, I can assure you hereby:

You have found, after extensive research all over the internet, a website that suits your agenda...congratulations!!! We are very proud!!!
I know it's only VfB but I like it!
 
JGPH1A
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RE: EU Government Flip-Flops On Security Fence

Tue Aug 17, 2004 11:33 pm

WorldNet Daily is renowned for being a refuge for righter-than-right foil hat wearing freakosauruses - anything it says can safely be ignored.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
Schoenorama
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RE: EU Government Flip-Flops On Security Fence

Wed Aug 18, 2004 12:04 am

JAL777:

"I was only levelling out the playing field... seems like lots of people spend all day searching the internet for articles that suit their own agenda, so I wanted to try it out."

Actually, JAL777. I read the article I posted a thread about (and which QIguy24 was so kind to link to) in my Spanish newspaper this morning. Since people like you would probably not take my word for it, I included some easy-to-check internet-links to English articles on the same subject.

When comparing the Bush Government Flip-Flop I referred to in my thread to the alleged EU Flip Flop of this highly original thread, I can't see any comparison at all. First, as others have already indicated, the EU is not against the building of the Israeli wall per sé: it is against it being build on Palestinian land. Secondly, to be able to call something a "Flip-Flop", you'll have to show somebody or something (the EU, in this case) has changed its mind, for whatever reason, during a given period of time on a specific subject. You haven't done so. You are supposing, as other ignorants on this forum and in some media, that the EU and the International Court of Justice are against the building of the Israeli wall alltogether. That's where you are wrong.

In light of this Bush Administration's statements on Terrorism, on Saddam having ties with Terrorism, on how terrorists should be dealt with worldwide, on what should be done with terrorists in Iraq, all I have done is point out the contradictions of those statements when related to a particular terrorist group. This particular group gets a preferred treatment from the US, despite the fact that they have killed Americans, despite the fact that they were Saddam's allies. How the hell does that compare with the EU building a wall against illegal immigration?
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
 
JAL777
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RE: EU Government Flip-Flops On Security Fence

Wed Aug 18, 2004 12:43 am

I'm sure those were not the only articles you read this morning... but they sure were the only ones you posted? Why?
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: EU Government Flip-Flops On Security Fence

Wed Aug 18, 2004 1:58 am

Secondly, to be able to call something a "Flip-Flop", you'll have to show somebody or something (the EU, in this case) has changed its mind, for whatever reason, during a given period of time on a specific subject.

Schoenorama is right, EU is not flip-floping in this case at all. EU is traditionally very consistent in its biased approach towards Israel-Palestinian conflict.
 
Klaus
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L410Turbolet

Wed Aug 18, 2004 2:24 am

L410Turbolet: Schoenorama is right, EU is not flip-floping in this case at all. EU is traditionally very consistent in its biased approach towards Israel-Palestinian conflict.

Where did you get this wonderful insight from again?  Insane

EU countries and the EU in general are the only major force right now that´s respected by both Israel and the palestinians. All others are perceived as either biased towards one or the other side.

Please think before posting.
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: EU Government Flip-Flops On Security Fence

Wed Aug 18, 2004 2:55 am

You know, Klaus, there is a huge difference between what you call a "respect" and something like balanced approach. EU's always happy and way too quick to loudly condemn Israel for its reaction to i.e. Palestinian bombings while the cause itself for such reaction is kind of "bad, please don't do i again".
It's no secret that Israel is hoping that new-EU countries will make the EU foreign policy output more balanced. However, I don't think it's too realistic since we're only those with "great chances to shut up" according to Mr. Chirac  Pissed.
 
Klaus
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Turbolet

Wed Aug 18, 2004 3:31 am

You´ve got a weird view of the EU... Well, as long as both parties actually involved in the conflict accept EU countries and the EU itself as honest broker, it doesn´t really matter all that much if you disagree...

And no, we´re not all out to hurt you. In some cases paranoia is just that.  Wink/being sarcastic
 
Schoenorama
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RE: EU Government Flip-Flops On Security Fence

Wed Aug 18, 2004 4:19 am

JAL777:

"I'm sure those were not the only articles you read this morning... but they sure were the only ones you posted? Why?"

Because I doubt it very much you or anybody else on this forum would be very interested in discussing Spanish domestic items, that's one reason. Another one is that it clearly stresses that this Bush Administration hasn't got any problem at all supporting a terrorist group, as long as it serves it interests. Apparently, neither do you.
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
 
JAL777
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RE: EU Government Flip-Flops On Security Fence

Wed Aug 18, 2004 4:52 am

Because I doubt it very much you or anybody else on this forum would be very interested in discussing Spanish domestic items, that's one reason. Another one is that it clearly stresses that this Bush Administration hasn't got any problem at all supporting a terrorist group, as long as it serves it interests. Apparently, neither do you.

Or maybe its because you know full well that posting such drivel from both sides of the arguement only leads to flamefest. And since the rest of your lives is boring, flamefest and arguements on the internet mark the climax of your day.  Big grin
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: EU Government Flip-Flops On Security Fence

Wed Aug 18, 2004 5:18 am

And no, we´re not all out to hurt you. In some cases paranoia is just that.

Whatever, Klaus. All I'm saying that Israel is an example why I don't see the future EU's common foreign policy as something that would represent interest of all 25, but moreless one or two.

 
ushermittwoch
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RE: EU Government Flip-Flops On Security Fence

Wed Aug 18, 2004 5:25 am

L410, if the EU is so awful, feel free to move to Belarus, the haven of freedom in Europe.
Where have all the tri-jets gone...
 
Schoenorama
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RE: EU Government Flip-Flops On Security Fence

Wed Aug 18, 2004 5:37 am

JAL777:

"Or maybe its because you know full well that posting such drivel from both sides of the arguement only leads to flamefest. And since the rest of your lives is boring, flamefest and arguements on the internet mark the climax of your day."

I get the impression you don't like my posts... Fair enough, I don't like most of yours. This is a DISCUSSION BOARD, son. People come here to DISCUSS and there's no point whatsoever in discussing something we all agree about, at least I don't see it. I post the things that interest me. If you don't like it, don't read them!!!
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
 
JAL777
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RE: EU Government Flip-Flops On Security Fence

Wed Aug 18, 2004 6:02 am

Schoenorama

Bush Government Flip-Flops On Terrorism Schoenorama 2004-08-17 13:53:08
Republican Convention Schedule Schoenorama 2004-07-17 19:44:04
Kerry/Edwards' Unofficial Campaign Song By E. Idle Schoenorama 2004-07-08 01:28:05
Blacklists: A New Era Of Republican Mccarthyism? Schoenorama 2004-06-16 13:59:13
Fox News & Major Misperceptions About Iraq Schoenorama 2003-10-07 17:04:13
Terrorism In Iraq? Blame Al-Qaeda! Schoenorama 2003-08-30 17:14:17
Bush Misuses Science Data Schoenorama 2003-08-10 02:46:59
Not About Oil? Schoenorama 2003-07-29 17:41:10
Capitalism Pentagon Style (Sad, But True) Schoenorama 2003-07-29 02:34:14
How The Road To War Was Paved With Lies Schoenorama 2003-04-29 01:12:20
Media Manipulation In UK? Schoenorama 2003-04-27 01:16:55
US Detains Children At Camp X-Ray Schoenorama 2003-04-23 16:09:03
Arrogant Propaganda Schoenorama 2003-04-03 02:40:50
To All European Users! Schoenorama 2003-03-30 00:46:09
What Bush Didn't (Want To) Know About 9/11 Schoenorama 2003-03-19 02:28:56
Bush's Press Conference: More Warmongering Schoenorama 2003-03-10 20:45:59
Iraqi Conflict Timeline Schoenorama 2003-03-06 14:54:03
Iran Suing US For Its Support Of Saddam Schoenorama 2003-02-27 14:27:15
Iraqis To Pay For Own Reconstruction Schoenorama 2003-02-19 04:09:55
Double Standards Of US In Past Decades Schoenorama 2003-02-15 00:18:38
War On Terror?
 
JAL777
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RE: EU Government Flip-Flops On Security Fence

Wed Aug 18, 2004 6:11 am

JAL777

Is This The Next President Of France? JAL777 2004-07-23 05:18:31
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You Touch My Ta La La? JAL777 2004-05-23 18:17:12
German Couple Learns Stork Isn't Real... JAL777 2004-05-19 15:17:10
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Préparez-vous Mes Amis Français, Starbucks Vient! JAL777 2003-09-25 20:18:54
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WTF? Add Verisign To My Boycott List! JAL777 2003-09-20 05:02:02





Now...you can make your own assumptions as to who has a broad range of interests and which one is obsessed.
 
rjpieces
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RE: EU Government Flip-Flops On Security Fence

Wed Aug 18, 2004 6:15 am

EU countries and the EU in general are the only major force right now that´s respected by both Israel and the palestinians. All others are perceived as either biased towards one or the other side.

Please. Israel has no respect for European foreign policy towards them and Arafat more or less steals your aid money. Go for the gold and say you are pro-Palestinian or anti-Israeli, but don't beat around the bush calling yourselves "respected by both sides" when all actions lead to the contrary.

The ICJ ruling was exlusively against the portions of the israeli wall that were built on palestinian land!

Mentioning Palestinian terrorism how few times? What is Palestinian land Klaus? If you ask many Palestinians they will tell you Israel. There is no solution to this conflict in sight, unless you see the end of the Jewish state of Israel as a solution. Palestinians want the right of return, they don't want 80% of the West Bank, they even turned down 97% of it.

The security fence puts 99%, NINETY NINE PERCENT, of West Bank Palestinians on the Palestinian side of the fence. And only 80% of Jews in the West Bank in what will be Israel. If Europeans want the best solution available (at the time) to the conflict, they have it.

And as for everyone who says it should be built on the 1967 green line, that is simply unacceptable. It would compromise Israeli security, send the message that terrorism works, and mean a whole load of other bad things for Israel. Why should Israel give concessions after years of terrorism? If Israel did build it on the 1967 line, hundreds of thousands of Jews would find themselves in a Palestinian state. And I don't mean the religious Jews who you commonly see pictures of in deep settlements in the WB. They will be on the Palestinian side anyway. I mean Jews in cities like Ariel. The whole point of the security fence was maximum Arabs on one side, maximum Jews on the other side. If the last 60 years have taught us anything, it is that Jews and Arabs need a seperate state.

I'm honestly utterly confused by Europeans dislike of the security fence when it has been proven to work. Do you deny that it will suceed in stopping terrorism? Do you fail to see that it will stop Palestinians from attacking Israel, and maybe let them focus on building a country? Could some European please try to explain to me why they think the fence is bad? I'd prefer it to Klaus, or somebody balanced. I don't need Arab members telling me how they still have the keys to their house from 1948.

The New York Times Magazine had an article on Sharon and the Palestinian situation this week. Some interesting quotes:
IDF Brigadier General Eival Gilady sees the fence as sending two political messages. One to the Palestinians that there is a price in land for continuing the conflict. Two, to the settlers, that there is less of a future for them on the Palestinian side of the line.

"What we really want is to turn our backs on the Arabs and never deal with them again," he (an advisor) said, summarizing what he considers the prevailing Israeli view. "We don't want to be accepted in the Middle East anymore." Another top advisor said of Sharon's plan: "It could help the Palestinains. It could hurt them. We don't care."

Whatever, Klaus. All I'm saying that Israel is an example why I don't see the future EU's common foreign policy as something that would represent interest of all 25, but moreless one or two.

Forget Israel policy. How about US policy? Many European nations still favor strong TransAtlantic relations while some would like to see a stronger European community. I read yesterday that they appointed EU commisioners and that France and Germany got screwed on their picks. Let's see how this plays out in coming years.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: EU Government Flip-Flops On Security Fence

Wed Aug 18, 2004 6:37 am

The question of in the name of which countries the EU would really speak is a legitimate one, Klaus and I don't see a single reason why you telling me to move to Belarus just for asking...
 
Schoenorama
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RE: EU Government Flip-Flops On Security Fence

Wed Aug 18, 2004 6:50 am

And your point is, JAL777.....?  Confused


"Now...you can make your own assumptions as to who has a broad range of interests and which one is obsessed."

I never said I had a broad range or interest. Those are your words, not mine!

[Edited 2004-08-17 23:55:52]
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
 
Klaus
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Rjpieces

Wed Aug 18, 2004 8:29 am

Rjpieces: Go for the gold and say you are pro-Palestinian or anti-Israeli, but don't beat around the bush calling yourselves "respected by both sides" when all actions lead to the contrary.

People who cannot think in any other category than "either - or" will prolong every conflict. Solutions always require an and.


Rjpieces: Mentioning Palestinian terrorism how few times? What is Palestinian land Klaus?

The ruling explicitly recognized legitimate security interests of Israel. Palestinian land is the one on the palestinian side of the division line, obviously. Pacta sunt servanda.


Rjpieces: Forget Israel policy. How about US policy? Many European nations still favor strong TransAtlantic relations while some would like to see a stronger European community.

It has always been stated german policy to pursue both. That many americans never believed the EU could ever amount to anything is not really our problem.  Wink/being sarcastic

The transatlantic relations will still remain one of the main pillars of german (and european) policy unless something truly catastrophic happens on the other side.


Rjpieces: I read yesterday that they appointed EU commisioners and that France and Germany got screwed on their picks. Let's see how this plays out in coming years.

The new commission president Barroso was lobbied by several national governments as usual. In the end, everybody was quite satisfied and the general consensus was that Barroso did a good job with his selection. Germany "getting screwed"? Sorry, no. The new commissioner for economic affairs is the experienced german Günter Verheugen, with far-reaching responsibilities. Good choice.
 
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sebolino
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RE: EU Government Flip-Flops On Security Fence

Wed Aug 18, 2004 9:04 am

I don't know if it's true, but I don't see the problem of a country building a wall on his territory, we do it everyday while building a house.

When you do it on a territory that you occupy by force, that's another story ...
 
rjpieces
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RE: EU Government Flip-Flops On Security Fence

Wed Aug 18, 2004 9:05 am

The new commission president Barroso was lobbied by several national governments as usual. In the end, everybody was quite satisfied and the general consensus was that Barroso did a good job with his selection. Germany "getting screwed"? Sorry, no. The new commissioner for economic affairs is the experienced german Günter Verheugen, with far-reaching responsibilities. Good choice.

Just relaying what the editorial page of the Wall Street Journal said. I threw out the paper but I recall it saying the Shcroder's main pick wasn't chosen, nor was Chirac's favored pick.

The ruling explicitly recognized legitimate security interests of Israel.

I believe it mentioned Palestinian terrorism three or four times in the WHOLE report.

Palestinian land is the one on the palestinian side of the division line, obviously.

And which division line is this Klaus? Because if you use the Security Wall path, then 99% of the Palestinians are on the Palestinian side and 80% of the Jews on the Israeli side. If you use the green line of 1967, then 200,000+ Jews are on Palestinian land and a solution is much less likely. Let's not discuss whether it was apt to build settlements in the first place, but nonetheless that is the situation today. The security fence would give Palestinians about 89% of the West Bank, with 99% of the Palestinians and a handful of Jews who would presumably leave once the IDF pulled out.

Are you going to speak about reasons why you are against the security fence?

It has always been stated german policy to pursue both.

But you can't say the same about France.....

The transatlantic relations will still remain one of the main pillars of german (and european) policy unless something truly catastrophic happens on the other side.

But of course some nations favor stronger Trans Atlantic relations(Eastern European nations, Italy, a handful of others) while some are more content with stronger interEurope relations (France mostly).
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
Klaus
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Rjpieces

Wed Aug 18, 2004 9:24 am

Rjpieces: Just relaying what the editorial page of the Wall Street Journal said.

Then I´d recommend reading other sources as well. The WSJ is not exactly a beacon of unbiased journalism, especially not its editorials.


Rjpieces: I believe it mentioned Palestinian terrorism three or four times in the WHOLE report.

It wasn´t a "report", it was a judicial ruling. And one about the question of the legitimacy of the fence´s location, at that. So this is perfectly correct.


Rjpieces: And which division line is this Klaus?

The officially acknowledged one. "Oh, what´s a little land grab after the big land grab!" is no valid argumentation here. Just stick to what has been agreed on earlier.


Rjpieces: Are you going to speak about reasons why you are against the security fence?

I don´t have much interest in the usual debate right now. Just this much: In my opinion it´s another act of helplessness, instead of addressing the real reasons: The rule of the fanatical few on both sides over the fed-up many on both sides.


Rjpieces: But you can't say the same about France.....

As much as Washington will have to accept that the days of european subservience are officially over after the Iraq debacle, the french will have to accept that being part of a greater EU will require them to cooperate more and throw tantrums less frequently. Just as for everybody else. (Even the britons will ultimately come around...  Wink/being sarcastic)


Rjpieces: But of course some nations favor stronger Trans Atlantic relations(Eastern European nations, Italy, a handful of others) while some are more content with stronger interEurope relations (France mostly).

In Italy it´s just Berlusconi. The population is pretty much fed up with Washington. So when Berlusconi will finally go to jail, expect some changes.

You might also want to update on eastern Europe. Enthusiasm for a subservient role towards the USA has cooled considerably during the past two years, not in small part due to Iraq and the circumstances. The rejection of the visa waiver admission has pissed off the poles quite a bit on top of that.
 
rjpieces
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RE: EU Government Flip-Flops On Security Fence

Wed Aug 18, 2004 9:44 am

Then I´d recommend reading other sources as well. The WSJ is not exactly a beacon of unbiased journalism, especially not its editorials.

Please name me one media source that is a beacon of unbiased journalism.

It wasn´t a "report", it was a judicial ruling. And one about the question of the legitimacy of the fence´s location, at that. So this is perfectly correct.

Any "judicial ruling" regarding the security fence must not ignore Palestinian terrorism. If so, as did the ICJ, it will be ignored by Israel. For example, Israel's Supreme Court was able to effectively measure security concerns vs Palestinian claims and as a result, they changed the path.

The officially acknowledged one. "Oh, what´s a little land grab after the big land grab!" is no valid argumentation here.

And what officially acknowledged one is this Klaus? And what "big land grab" are you referring to dear?

Just stick to what has been agreed on earlier

Tmes and situations change. Why should Israel return to how the situation was in 1967, when Egypt and Jordan ruled the GS and WB, and when they decided to try to wipe out Israel?

The path of the security fence maximies the number of Palestinians on their side, and maximizes the number of Jews on the Israeli side.

I don´t have much interest in the usual debate right now.

I'm not asking for a debate although that will likely happen anyway. I'm simply asking for the reasons you are against the security fence as is now, especially considering it has been proven to work. The only thing guaranteed if the security fence was removed is that more Israelis would be blown up--Have you ever wondered why so many Arab nations are against it?

In my opinion it´s another act of helplessness, instead of addressing the real reasons:

The real reasons involved Arabs still not ready to accept an independent Jewish state. I truly belive there will never be real peace with the Palestinians. Even now, 20+ years after Camp David, there is not a real peace between Egypt and Israel. It is an agreement between leaders. There might be this type of "peace" with the Palestinians in due time, but there will never be peace the way you and I know the word. Palestinians will never give up their quest to "return" to Israel, that is, to end the Jewish state. So tell me then Klaus, what real reasons do you see?

The rule of the fanatical few on both sides over the fed-up many on both sides.

Except that Sharon's sentiment is felt by a good majority of Israelis--They just want to be done, seperated, and totally gone from the Palestinians.

P.S. What are you doing up this late?  Smile
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
Klaus
Posts: 21642
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

Rjpieces

Wed Aug 18, 2004 10:17 am

Rjpieces: Please name me one media source that is a beacon of unbiased journalism.

None is ideal on its own. You´ll always need variety.

Der Spiegel (DER SPIEGEL - SPIEGEL ONLINE) is my primary source - they kick everybody´s butt in equal measure, just with slightly different levels of sarcasm.  Wink/being sarcastic It´s german (although some articles are available in english as well: DER SPIEGEL - english
).  Wink/being sarcastic

US media: You´d need a good selection:

- Washington Post: Often lengthy but usually well-researched; Still screwed up regarding Iraq like all the rest, but maybe there´s still hope);

- Time: Supplemental reading.

- New York Times: Yes, I know, I know.  Wink/being sarcastic But as supplement to the others still readable. Sometimes decent information

- Salon.com: You´d probably pop your lid ("Communists! Traitors! Heretics!"), but they have consistently and courageously provided a clear perspective which others (see above) only found after having crashed and burned before... Many original interviews with important people during the "dark hours" that were not found anywhere else. The amount of back-pedalling (or the lack thereof!) required after the fact is a good indicator of journalistic quality.

They also have an interesting column "ask the pilot" by Patrick Smith (oviously an a.net user - but I don´t know if he´s in the forums as well).


Rjpieces: ny "judicial ruling" regarding the security fence must not ignore Palestinian terrorism.

The ruling was not concerned with the existence of the fence, only with its location.


Rjpieces: And what officially acknowledged one is this Klaus? And what "big land grab" are you referring to dear?

As far as I remember, it´s based on the last separation plan recognized by both sides.

Big land grab: Are you kidding?  Nuts


Rjpieces: I'm not asking for a debate although that will likely happen anyway. I'm simply asking for the reasons you are against the security fence as is now, especially considering it has been proven to work.

"Work"? Well, that remains to be seen. The Berlin Wall "worked" as well - "in some way".  Nuts


Rjpieces: So tell me then Klaus, what real reasons do you see?

Again: The rule of the fanatical few on both sides over the fed-up many on both sides.

It´s all fear, hate and helplessness on both sides. Pathetic. Without substantial external pressure, I don´t see any progress. But with Bush occupied in Iraq and completely disinterested in the Israel/Palestine conflict, we won´t see anything before next year.


Rjpieces: What are you doing up this late?

Good question!

Good night.

[Edited 2004-08-18 03:22:22]
 
rjpieces
Posts: 6849
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:58 am

RE: EU Government Flip-Flops On Security Fence

Wed Aug 18, 2004 10:33 am

The ruling was not concerned with the existence of the fence, only with its location.

Nonetheless, to barely mention Palestinian terrorism and the need and effectiveness of the fence, the ICJ discredited itself and any chance that Israel might listen to their suggestions.

As far as I remember, it´s based on the last separation plan recognized by both sides.

Which was? Unless you are talking about the last time there were firm borders, which would be in 1967 when Jordan occupied the West Bank. 40 years is a long time.

Big land grab: Are you kidding?

No, I'm not. I don't know what you mean by this line: "Oh, what´s a little land grab after the big land grab!" is no valid argumentation here.

"Work"? Well, that remains to be seen. The Berlin Wall "worked" as well - "in some way".

Ummm, no. It has been proven to work. Since the fence was built around Gaza a while back, only one suicide bomber has been able to penetrate it. In the sections it has been built in the West Bank, suicide bombings originating from those areas have gone down 90%. Where walls were built to prevent sniping, deaths are down similar percents. That, along with Israel's assasination of militants and antiterror policy, is why there hasn't been a major suicide bombing in Israel for about 7 months.

Again: The rule of the fanatical few on both sides over the fed-up many on both sides.

You said before:In my opinion it´s another act of helplessness, instead of addressing the real reasons:

Again, could you be more specific about what real reasons need addressing?

Without substantial external pressure, I don´t see any progress.

Israel doesn't want to deal with the Palestinians anymore; they want to be through with them. I'm very curious to see how the Palestinians will manage when Israel pulls out. Will they finally build their country or will they remain there blaming Israel for a while?We have already seen fighting between groups in Gaza and Israel is still there! It will be very interesting indeed.

But with Bush occupied in Iraq and completely disinterested in the Israel/Palestine conflict, we won´t see anything before next year.

Bush isn't disinterested in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. He has given his goahead for the security fence. Like it or not, the security fence will calm things down.

Goodnight, unless you are still up!
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
JAL777
Topic Author
Posts: 2453
Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2003 10:13 pm

RE: EU Government Flip-Flops On Security Fence

Wed Aug 18, 2004 10:47 am

But with Bush occupied in Iraq and completely disinterested in the Israel/Palestine conflict, we won´t see anything before next year.


Why is the Israeli/Palestinan conflict the responsibility of the United States? As far as I remember, that was a problem created by the Europeans further entrenched by British/French/Israeli military operations.
 
rjpieces
Posts: 6849
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:58 am

RE: EU Government Flip-Flops On Security Fence

Wed Aug 18, 2004 11:40 am

Why is the Israeli/Palestinan conflict the responsibility of the United States? As far as I remember, that was a problem created by the Europeans further entrenched by British/French/Israeli military operations.

Different times JAL777.

Nonetheless, I detest the argument that no progress can be made in ANYTHING regarding the Middle East until the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is resolved. Those who say that are using it as an excuse for the shortcomings of the Arab world. Conversely, if some of the fundamental problems facing the Middle East were resolved, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict would more easily be resolved.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"

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