This is very interesting! I just read it.
What you think of this?

More info at:
http://www.jdl.org/

Originally Published by Arutz Sheva News Service

A commentator in the official Egyptian government weekly, of all places, writes this week that the entire Moslem claim on Jerusalem and El-Aksa is based on a mistaken reading of one chapter of the Quran. Ahmed Mahmad Oufa wrote that the verse that mentions a night journey by Muhammed to a mosque has nothing to do with Jerusalem, as is generally claimed, but with a mosque near the holy Moslem city of Medina.

Prof. Moshe Sharon, Middle Eastern expert in the Hebrew University, expressed great surprise at the fact that such an article would be published in Arabic and in an Arabic-speaking country. Speaking with Arutz-7 today, he said, "All in all, this is not a new claim. We must remember that Jerusalem is not mentioned at all in the Quran [though it is mentioned hundreds of time in the Bible - ed. note]. The verse in question is in Sura [chapter] 17, which states that Muhammad was brought at night from one mosque to a "more distant" - aktsa, in Arabic - mosque. The first Moslem commentators did not explain this as referring to Jerusalem at all, of course, but rather as a miraculous night journey or night vision or some such. In the beginning of the 8th century, however, they began associating this with Jerusalem, because they had a need to start giving sanctity to Jerusalem, and so they started connecting this verse with Jerusalem... Originally, however, the Moslems recognized the area of the Dome of the Rock as holy because of the Jewish Temple of King Solomon."

This last point may be borne out, Nissan Ratzlav-Katz notes, by the fact that the modern Arabic name for Jerusalem, Al-Quds, is adapted from the original Arabic name for the Temple Mount: Bayt al-Maqdis - or Beit HaMikdash [Hebrew for Holy Temple].

It should further be noted that the Al Aksa mosque was built on the Temple Mount 621 years after Mohammed's death.

Uh...no offense, but what kind of flame fest are you trying to start here?

No flame fest, but finally some info that also Mulems can be wrong.....  

Who cares? It's all religious bogus.

I do not believe in claiming land or something based on religious belief.

KL, this is blatent racism and starting flamewars. It is clear that the rock Mohammed went to is under the Dome of the Rock, and there is nothing "wobbly" about the claim. There is even a reference to the Western Wall, and I doubt that is anywhere near Medina.

'''KL, this is blatent racism and starting flamewars'''

You guys post for weeks now anti-Israeli stuff, and now I'm a racist? Sorry, also this isn official newspaper article, and I just ask the opinion of the people who are interested in this topic.

Guess you don't like negative attention? Now you know how it feels.

These ancient "claims" mean nothing anyway.

It's now 2004. Israel exists and is not going anywhere. Saudi Arabia, Syria, Arafat et al should recognize Israel in return for normal relations and peace. The Israeli's will then allow a Palestinian state.

I don't see how this is racism, its just some professors interpretation of some writings that happened eons ago. Its interesting to read, but it really isn't going to change anything over there in the M.E.

You guys post for weeks now anti-Israeli stuff

I havent posted any threads about the conflict in months.

and now I'm a racist?

Yes you are a racist when you say you could use the West Bank for resorts.

Guess you don't like negative attention? Now you know how it feels.

I've been getting negative attention about my country all my life, so dont give me that crap.

These ancient "claims" mean nothing anyway.

Israel is based on these ancient clames, I don't see any criticism about that.

Saudi Arabia, Syria, Arafat et al should recognize Israel in return for normal relations and peace.

So what about the demands of the Arab League? They are not that bad: Return the Golan Heights, West Bank and Gaza Strip then we will recognize you.

I don't see how this is racism, its just some professors interpretation of some writings that happened eons ago.

Two posts in an attempt to discredit Arabs is racist. Also KL is a very racist person as he's already shown. It is not the article that is racist, its the user.

Please. It's funny that this is even being debated! Seriously, what did you expect the Israelis to day? That their own claim to Jerusalem is wrong and that the Muslims are indeed 150% correct?

I find it funny that people who are living in Israel like LY7E7 and people like QR332 and some of our Lebanese A.netters can agree on many things and have a polite debate, while chickenhawks from both sides, living far away from the region get into fundamentalist cock fights.

Jan

MD11,

Haha, so true, so true. Maybe if people listened to the people who lived or have lived in the region more, things would make more sense. I think they know most about this issue.

'''Haha, so true, so true. Maybe if people listened to the people who lived or have lived in the region more, things would make more sense. I think they know most about this issue.'''

I've lived 2 years in Israel, so I know where I talk about. My brother is still living there.


'''So what about the demands of the Arab League? They are not that bad: Return the Golan Heights'''

The day that happens the artilley will open fire again at innocent jewish villages. Like they always did, which was the reason to occupy the Golan heights anyway.

The day that happens the artilley will open fire again at innocent jewish villages. Like they always did, which was the reason to occupy the Golan heights anyway.

Furthermore, The New York Times, May 11, 1997 said in an article that Moshe Dayan, the Minister of defense at the time admitted that Israel provoked the war on the Syrian side and occupied the Golan Heights out of greed for more land.

"Moshe Dayan, the celebrated commander who, as Defense Minister in 1967, gave the order to conquer the Golan...[said] many of the firefights with the Syrians were deliberately provoked by Israel, and the kibbutz residents who pressed the Government to take the Golan Heights did so less for security than for the farmland...[Dayan stated] 'They didn't even try to hide their greed for the land...We would send a tractor to plow some area where it wasn't possible to do anything, in the demilitarized area, and knew in advance that the Syrians would start to shoot. If they didn't shoot, we would tell the tractor to advance further, until in the end the Syrians would get annoyed and shoot, and then we would use artillery and later the air force also, and that's how it was...The Syrians, on the fourth day of the war, were not a threat to us.'"

http://www.imemc.org/headlines/2004/June/week1/060504/1967-war.htm

"The thesis that the danger of genocide was hanging over us in June 1967 and that Israel was fighting for its physical existence is only bluff, which was born and developed after the war." Israeli General Matityahu Peled, Ha'aretz, 19 March 1972.

BA,

You still don't realize that we all laugh about your childish statements?
Thanks for the fun! I don't know what you study, but try history, that might help.... We already know that you guys are masters in propaganda.

KL911

Some facts on "peaceful" Arab countries at the eve of the Six Days War:

Israel did indeed simultaneously attack Egypt, Syria, Jordan and Iraq on June 5, 1967. It had little choice. For weeks leading up to that day, Israel's Arab enemies upped the temperature by amassing troops on the borders of the tiny Jewish state, while threatening murder and mayhem. Consider the following:

May 14, 1967: Egypt's President Gamal Nasser demands the withdrawal of United Nations force--established in 1957 as an international "guarantee" of safety for Israel--from the Sinai peninsula. The UN meekly obeys; the United States and Britain fail to rouse the Security Council to take action.

May 15: Three Egyptian army divisions and 600 tanks roll into the Sinai. World community does nothing.

May 17: Cairo Radio's Voice of the Arabs: "All Egypt is now prepared to plunge into total war which will put an end to Israel."

May 18: Voice of the Arabs announces: "As of today, there no longer exists an international emergency force to protect Israel. We shall exercise patience no more. We shall not complain any more to the UN about Israel. The sole method we shall apply against Israel is a total war which will result in the extermination of Zionist existence."

May 18: Nasser announces blockade of Straits of Tiran in the Red Sea, severing Israel's southern maritime link to the outside world. Israel considers the closure an act of war. (US President Lyndon Johnson later says: "If a single act of folly was more responsible for this explosion than any other it was the arbitrary and dangerous announced decision that the Straits of Tiran would be closed.")

May 20: Syria's defense minister (to become a president later) Hafez el-Assad says: "Our forces are now ready not only to repulse the aggression but to initiate the act of liberation itself, and to explode the Zionist presence in the Arab homeland. The Syrian army, with its finger on the trigger, is united ..."

May 27: Nasser: "Our basic objection will be the destruction of Israel. The Arab people want to fight."

May 30: Nasser : "The armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon are poised on the borders of Israel."

May 30: Jordan's King Hussein signs a five-year mutual defense pact with Egypt and the two set up a joint command, making clear its stance in any future conflict.

My 31: Egyptian newspaper Al Akhbar reports: "Under terms of the military agreement signed with Jordan, Jordanian artillery, co-ordinated with the forces of Egypt and Syria, is in a position to cut Israel in two ..."

May 31: Iraqi President Rahman Aref announces: "This is our opportunity to wipe out the ignominy which has been with us since 1948. Our goal is clear--to wipe Israel off the map."

June 4: Iraq joins Nasser's military alliance against Israel.

June 5: Six Day War begins: Israeli Airforce attacks airfields in Egypt, Syria, Jordan and Iraq.

June 10: Israel and its enemies accepted UN Security Council cease-fire demands. The war ended, leaving Israel in control of the Sinai peninsula, eastern Jerusalem, the Golan Heights, Judea-Samaria and the Gaza Strip. (The Sinai was returned to Egypt between 1978 and 1982, as part of an Israeli-Egyptian peace treaty.)


"Never in human history can an aggressor have made his purpose known in advance so clearly and so widely. Certain of victory, both the Arab leaders and their peoples threw off all restraint. Between the middle of May and fifth of June, world-wide newspapers, radio and, most incisively, television brought home to millions of people the threat of politicide bandied about with relish by the leaders of these modern states. Even more blatant was the exhilaration which the Arabic peoples displayed as the prospect of executing genocide on the people of Israel ... In those three weeks of mounting tension people throughout the world watched and waited in growing anxiety--or in some cases, in hopeful expectation--for the overwhelming forces of at least Egypt, Syria, Jordan and Iraq to bear down from three sides to crush tiny Israel and slaughter her people."



PS. Regarding the Golan Heights , my personal opinion is that Israel does not need any peace accord with Syria. We don't have to have countries that blatantly support terrorism as our friends. Syria is an impoverished country , run by a tyrant, that blames Israel for all their troubles, including being on a verge of a fiscal bankruptcy. The Golan heights (unlike WB and GS) are part of Israel and will remain part of it.

I find it funny that people who are living in Israel like LY7E7 and people like QR332 and some of our Lebanese A.netters can agree on many things and have a polite debate, while chickenhawks from both sides, living far away from the region get into fundamentalist cock fights.

True. I remember I was having a perfectly peaceful conversation with one of our Israeli members when suddenly RJ decided to turn it into a flame war, it gets very annoying that you can't have a normal conversation with anyone about the topic anymore without people jumping in and ruining it.

I've lived 2 years in Israel, so I know where I talk about. My brother is still living there.

Living in Israel doesn't make you a philosopher on Islam, and it doesn't give you the right to post racist comments about Palestinians.

KL, why'd you pick on one point only? What about the rest? I see you learned something from RJPieces.

Yeah Kl911...........the Israeli Ministry of Defense would spew propaganda against the Israeli, right?  

And the New York Times is highly regarded for its propaganda against Israel too, right?  

LY7E7,

That's all nice but I suggest you read this article:

http://www.imemc.org/headlines/2004/June/week1/060504/1967-war.htm

Your fellow leaders view things differently.

Regarding Egypt massing troops, here:

"The former Commander of the Air Force, General Ezer Weitzman, regarded as a hawk, stated that there was 'no threat of destruction' but that the attack on Egypt, Jordan and Syria was nevertheless justified so that Israel could 'exist according the scale, spirit, and quality she now embodies.'...Menahem Begin had the following remarks to make: 'In June 1967, we again had a choice. The Egyptian Army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him.' "Noam Chomsky, "The Fateful Triangle."

The late Prime Misniter of Israel, Yitzhaq Rabin, assassinated by a Jewish fanatic Igal Ameer in 1995 affirms that Egypt did not want to attack Israel.

"I do not think Nasser wanted war. The two divisions he sent to The Sinai would not have been sufficient to launch an offensive war. He knew it and we knew it." Rabin said in an article published in Le Monde French paper on 2/28/68 as he was Israel's Chief of Staff in 1967.

Read the rest of the article for other perspectives regarding other issues.

'''KL, why'd you pick on one point only? What about the rest? I see you learned something from RJPieces. '''

I don't even know the guy.... I just write what I think and how I feel. That's a freedom we have in the west......... I can understand you're not used to that.

You still don't realize that we all laugh about your childish statements?
Thanks for the fun! I don't know what you study, but try history, that might help.... We already know that you guys are masters in propaganda.

Laugh all you want, they came from the mouths of Israeli leaders. At least he can argue a valid point - something you have yet to discover.

''least he can argue a valid point - something you have yet to discover.'''

Show me a valid point.......I don't see it. Maybe you better contact your propaganda department again? The stuff you post now works against you...

Okay ladies, settle down! If there's one thing for certain, it is that Judaism, Islam, Christianity, Hinduism, whatever - they're all the same at the end of the day. And all these fights and wars, don't think they're for religion any more. It's simply politics.

LY7E7,

PS. Regarding the Golan Heights , my personal opinion is that Israel does not need any peace accord with Syria. We don't have to have countries that blatantly support terrorism as our friends. Syria is an impoverished country , run by a tyrant, that blames Israel for all their troubles, including being on a verge of a fiscal bankruptcy. The Golan heights (unlike WB and GS) are part of Israel and will remain part of it.

Hah......your country provokes Syria into war, steals the Golan Heights out of greed for more land, you affirm that Golan Heights are part of Israel and will remain part of it, yet you speak you want peace in the region?

My gosh.......  

Kl911,

Show me a valid point.......I don't see it. Maybe you better contact your propaganda department again? The stuff you post now works against you...

Are you that blind? The Israeli Defense Minister at the time, Moshe Dayan himself stated all that. These quotes were also taken from one of the most highly regarded newspapers in the world, The New York Times.

Sorry, you can't dismiss this as "Arab propaganda" this time...

If you can't see that, then it shows how much of a hypocrit you are.

[Edited 2004-08-29 00:40:08]

BA,

Sorry, I forgot that you're only 16. You'll learn one day.

Kl911,

Sorry, I forgot that you're only 16.

Correction, I'm 18 and in a few months will be 19 and am currently in college.

You'll learn one day.

I have given you solid evidence from the leaders of a country you like, from a highly regarded internationally recognized newspaper, yet you chose to ignore them.

Sorry, it looks like you are the one who has to learn one day...

'''from a highly regarded internationally recognized newspaper,'''


The same people who always mix up airplane types? Do you always believe journalists? That's what I mean, one day you'll learn....

Just to add to BA's qoutes about 'peace loving' Israel:


In 1938 Ben Gurion spoke to Jewish leaders "...in our political argument abroad, we minimise Arab opposition to us" but "let us not ignore the truth among ourselves...WE ARE THE AGRESSORS AND THEY DEFEND THEMSELVES..." [The Fateful Triangle, Noam Chomsky]

Moshe Dayan said, "There is not one place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population" [Ha'artez, April 4th 1969]

Moshe Dayan also said, "above all, let us hope for a new war with the Arab countries, so that we may finally rid of our troubles and aquire MORE SPACE" [Moshe Sharett's diaries]

In Israel's 3 month occupation of Lebanon, they murderd 40,000-50,000 Lebanese and Palestinian civilians. Ze'ev Schiff, the noted Israeli military analyst said, "In South Leanon we struck the civilian population consciously, because they deserved it" [Ha'aretz, 10th May 1978]



p.s. BA, do you see the pattern that always emerges...certain members always resort to making personal attacks when they can no longer back their point with facts...it makes you 

Horus

The same people who always mix up airplane types? Do you always believe journalists? That's what I mean, one day you'll learn....

First of all, pretty much all media mixes up airplane types.

That's not the case when people interviewing people and quote what they say word for word.

Are you saying the New York Times misquoted what he said here?

"Moshe Dayan, the celebrated commander who, as Defense Minister in 1967, gave the order to conquer the Golan...[said] many of the firefights with the Syrians were deliberately provoked by Israel, and the kibbutz residents who pressed the Government to take the Golan Heights did so less for security than for the farmland...[Dayan stated] 'They didn't even try to hide their greed for the land...We would send a tractor to plow some area where it wasn't possible to do anything, in the demilitarized area, and knew in advance that the Syrians would start to shoot. If they didn't shoot, we would tell the tractor to advance further, until in the end the Syrians would get annoyed and shoot, and then we would use artillery and later the air force also, and that's how it was...The Syrians, on the fourth day of the war, were not a threat to us.'"

So you're saying what the New York Times posted above is completely different from what Moshe Dayan said himself?

Oh wait...maybe it was intentional...maybe The New York Times was intentionally trying to make Israel look bad, right?  

Just to add to BA's qoutes about 'peace loving' Arabs:


ON APRIL 23, 1948 Jamal Husseini, acting chairman of the Palestine Arab Higher Committee (AHC), told the UN Security Council: "The Arabs did not want to submit to a truce ... They preferred to abandon their homes, belongings and everything they possessed."

ON SEPTEMBER 6, 1948, the Beirut Daily Telegraph quoted Emil Ghory, secretary of the AHC, as saying: "The fact that there are those refugees is the direct consequence of the action of the Arab states in opposing partition and the Jewish state. The Arab states agreed upon this policy unanimously..."

ON JUNE 8, 1951, Habib Issa, secretary-general of the Arab League, wrote in the New York Lebanese daily al-Hoda that in 1948, Azzam Pasha, then League secretary, had "assured the Arab peoples that the occupation of Palestine and of Tel Aviv would be as simple as a military promenade ... Brotherly advice was given to the Arabs of Palestine to leave their land, homes and property, and to stay temporarily in neighboring fraternal states."

IN THE MARCH 1976 issue of Falastin a-Thaura, then the official journal of the Beirut-based PLO, Mahmud Abbas ("Abu Mazen"), PLO spokesman, wrote: "The Arab armies entered Palestine to protect the Palestinians from the Zionist tyranny but, instead, they abandoned them, forced them to emigrate and to leave their homeland, and threw them into prisons similar to the ghettos in which the Jews used to live."

ON APRIL 9, 1953, the Jordanian daily al-Urdun quoted a refugee, Yunes Ahmed Assad, formerly of Deir Yassin, as saying: "For the flight and fall of the other villages, it is our leaders who are responsible, because of the dissemination of rumours exaggerating Jewish crimes and describing them as atrocities in order to inflame the Arabs ... they instilled fear and terror into the hearts of the Arabs of Palestine until they fled, leaving their homes and property to the enemy."

ANOTHER refugee told the Jordanian daily a-Difaa on September 6, 1954: "The Arab governments told us, 'Get out so that we can get in.' So we got out, but they did not get in."

THE JORDANIAN daily Falastin wrote on February 19, 1949: "The Arab states... encouraged the Palestinian Arabs to leave their homes temporarily in order to be out of the way of the Arab invasion armies."

ON OCTOBER 2, 1948, the London Economist reported, in an eyewitness account of the flight of Haifa's Arabs: "There is little doubt that the most potent of the factors [in the flight] were the announcements made over the air by the Arab Higher Executive urging all Arabs in Haifa to quit ... And it was clearly intimated that those Arabs who remained in Haifa and accepted Jewish protection would be regarded as renegades."

THE PRIME Minister of Syria in 1948, Khaled al-Azem, in his memoirs, published in 1973, listed what he thought were the reasons for the Arab failure in 1948: " ... the fifth factor was the call by the Arab governments to the inhabitants of Palestine to evacuate it and leave for the bordering Arab countries ... We brought destruction upon a million Arab refugees by calling on them and pleading with them to leave their land."

"FOLLOWING a visit to refugees in Gaza, a British diplomat reported the following: 'But while they express no bitterness against the Jews...they speak with the utmost bitterness of the Egyptians and other Arab states: 'We know who our enemies are,' they will say, and they are referring to their Arab brothers who, they declare, persuaded them unnecessarily to leave their homes." -

British Foreign Office Document #371/75342/XC/A/4991 [From "Revising or Devising Israel's History" by Prof. Shlomo Slonim in Jewish Action, Summer 5760/2000, Vol. 60 #4]

The above quotes were taken from http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/quotes.html

Horus, keep in mind that your country is at peace with Israel. Israel returned the Sinai peninsula in return for peace. Have you travelled to Israel as a tourist yet?

Kl911,

And those quotes are true!

It just shows you how irresponsible the Arab governments were in handling the Zionist uprising which threatened the Palestinians.

If the Arab governments were united, organized, and dedicated in their cause for protecting Palestine, they could have crushed the Zionists.

Those quotes simply prove that they did not handle the Zionist uprising properly and they're right.

Yyz717,

Horus, keep in mind that your country is at peace with Israel. Israel returned the Sinai peninsula in return for peace. Have you travelled to Israel as a tourist yet?

The Egyptian people are very different from the puppet Egyptian government.

Having been to Egypt many times, Egyptians are perhaps the most resentful against Israel after the Palestinians.

BA,

It's ashame to see you post so many racist messages. Actually, there are a few more here on this site. I did hope that you guys had also learned the history lessons of 40-45.. Never again.! Don't make it sound like Arabs are victims, they are the agressors.

Myth: The neighbouring countries urged the Palestinians to flee their homes:

'In 1961 an Irish polititan, Michael O'Sullivan, spent months retracing the evidence supplied by the Israelis, no broadcast was found in which the Arabs urged Palestinians to flee. In fact, the zionists radio stations had been braodcasting in Arabic in 1948 urging the Palestinians to leave their homes.' [The Other Exodus, Erskine Childers]




Here is an example way Palestinians left their homes:

In April 1948, due to the zionist terrorist activites, many Palestinian villages had told zionists that there would be no resistance. One such village was Deir Yassin which is about 1km away from Jerusalem.

On the 9th of April, theIrgun (headed by future Israeli Priminitier Menachem Begin) and Stern terrorist gangs (led by future Israeli Prime Miniter Yitzhak Shamir) surrounded the village. The events that followed lead to the massacre of 4,000-5,000 Palestinians (Muslims and Christians). An Israeli soldier present at Deir Yassin described how the Irgun gunmen, "shot everyone they saw in the houses, including women and children - indeed the commanders made no attempt to check the disgraceful acts of slaughter." [Yediot Aharanot, 4April 1972]

The Irgun command sent a message to it men, "As in Deir Yassin, so everywhere"

Within days, several thousands of Palestinians were murdered, and an even greater number fled their homes. Deir Yassin was not destroyed. It's still standing and houses a mental hospital. What were destroyed were its Palestinians, Arab, Muslim and Christian population and character which was wiped off the map and out of memory. It should be nested that Deir Yassin is now Givot Shaul Beth, a part of Jerusalem. The streets are now named after the jewish terrorists that massacred the Palestinians. The Deir Yassin cemetry was cleared for a jewish highway.

Deir Yassin was not an isolated situation, ut one of many distastefully named "land clearing operations" used to establish Israel.




...you cannot just change history.....

Horus

The Egyptian people are very different from the puppet Egyptian government.

Democracy would solve that.

I still encourage Horus to travel to Israel and learn about it firsthand.




[Edited 2004-08-29 01:37:30]

Deir Yassin: History of a Lie
http://www.zoa.org/pubs/DeirYassin.htm

Deir Yassin's record of anti-Jewish violence

Some historians expressed surprise at the choice of Deir Yassin as a target, in view of what they regarded as the village's peaceful history. In fact, Deir Yassin served as a center of weapons trafficking during the violent Palestinian Arab outbreaks in 1920; Deir Yassin residents had carried out violent attacks on the Jews of Givat Shaul in October 1928; and during the August 1929 Arab riots throughout Palestine, the villagers of Deir Yassin had again assaulted their Jewish neighbors in Givat Shaul as well as Jews in the Beit Hakerem neighborhood and the Montefiore Quarter.17 A Jewish fighter who was stationed in Givat Shaul to help defend the village against Arab attacks during the violence 1936 later recalled how :

''we continually faced attempted forays into our homes from Deir Yassin. We dug out our 'illegal' weapons every night and waited, while the Jewish supplementary police [part of the British Mandate police force] repulsed the infiltrators again and again. Months later, we had a defense position in nearby Motza [and the commander] often asked my help to transport men to their night duties in Motza. Driving back and forth to Motza from Jerusalem, I spent many hours lying in roadside ditches after ambushes out of Deir Yassin.'''


...you cannot just change history.....

KL911

It's ashame to see you post so many racist messages.

The same rant from you. "You criticize Israel or Zionism, you are anti-Semitic."

Don't make it sound like Arabs are victims, they are the agressors.

“We must expel Arabs and take their places." David Ben Gurion, future Prime Minister of Israel, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.

"Spirit the penniless population across the frontier by denying it employment... Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly." Theodore Herzl, founder of the World Zionist Organization, speaking of the Arabs of Palestine,Complete Diaries, June 12, 1895 entry.

"We have to kill all the Palestinians unless they are resigned to live here as slaves." Chairman Heilbrun of the Committee for the Re-election of General Shlomo Lahat, the mayor of Tel Aviv, October 1983.

"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population." Israel Koenig, "The Koenig Memorandum"

"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population." Moshe Dayan, address to the Technion, Haifa, reported in Haaretz, April 4, 1969.

Look at this quote:

"If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?" David Ben Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister) quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp121.

It's good to see that Ben Gurion was being honest!

"Has any People ever been seen to give up their territory of their own free will? In the same way, the Arabs of Palestine will not renounce their sovereignty without violence." Vladimir Jabotinsky (the founder and advocate of the Zionist terrorist organizations), Quoted by Maxime Rodinson in Peuple Juif ou Problem Juif. (Jewish People or Jewish Problem).

You sure the Arabs were the aggressors Kl911?  

Regarding the massacre of Deir Yassin...

Hah! Nice to see you post the Zionist Organization of America info about Deir Yassin. A very honest and trustworthy source.  

I'll take the information by the Red Cross (a neutral organization) over the ZOA anyday.

Here is part of the Red Cross report:

For the time being, I would be able to visit some houses and the situation is the following: more than 200 dead in total, men, women, children. About 150 cadavers weren’t able to be preserved in the village in view of the danger presented by the decomposition of the bodies. They have been gathered together, transported some distance and thrown into a large hole (I was not able to determine if he is talking about a pit, a grain silo, or a large natural excavation.) [[Handwritten notation by de Reyner: "Impossible to visit because under fire. No mans land"]] About 20 bodies can be found in the no-mans-land between the Irgun forces and the Arab forces. About fifty bodies are in the village.

Read the rest of the Red Cross report here:

http://www.ariga.com/peacewatch/dy/redcross.htm

[Edited 2004-08-29 01:51:07]

BA, If you only copy/paste,

"It seems to me a certainty that the fatalistic teachings of Mohammed and the utter degradation of the Arab women are the outstanding causes for the arrested development of the Arab. He is exactly as he was around the year 700, while we have been developing."

Author: George S. Patton

Nice Kl911...........and you deny that you are not a racist yet you post such hateful quotes?

The sources are not credible, and you seem to forget how jewish terror groups initiated terror attacks against the indigenous Arab population (whether Muslim, Christian and even Jews). Here is a little history about the jewish groups that committed terror attacks against Arabs and the British before the jewish state was forcefully established:

Hagnah was a zionist terror force, operating in Palestine from 1915 to 1948. It was designed to provoke and attack the Palestinian and British authorities. Irgun was a terrorist zionist underground group, set up in 1931 by some Haganah commanders, who felt the Hagnah in protest against its 'lenient tactics'. The Stern gang was an even more extreme movement of limited strength whose aims included conquest of Eretz Israel, war against the British Empire, complete withdrawel of Britian and Aras from Palestine and the establishment 'by any means' of a 'Hebrew kingdom from the Euphrates to the Nile'.

Here are some of their 'highlights':
--July 1938, Irgun terrorists killed 179 Palestinians by setting off bombs in markets and other public places.
--When an Irgun member was arrested by the British, the Irgun killed another 82 Palestinians.
--In 1931, the British limited Jewish immigration to Palestine to 15,000 per year, so Irgun took it out on the Palestinians by killing 116.


KL911, if you are gonna make a point its adviced to use reliable (i.e. not biased sources) and convey the entire scenario.


Horus

BA,

''Nice Kl911...........and you deny that you are not a racist yet you post such hateful quotes?'''

As if you post peacefull quotes...

Don't blame me, blame the guy who made the quote.. One of the best generals ever in the US army.

As if you post peacefull quotes...

I've never posted a single quote that expresses hatred against any religion or any race, have I Kl911?

Incase you haven't noticed, most of my quotes are from Zionists or Jews themselves.

Oh wait....posting quotes that make Zionists bad means you are hateful against Jews, I forgot.  

One of the best generals ever in the US army.

I'll agree with this.

BA,

I don't know what you want to say, but most of my quotes are from Arabs or Palestinian refugees themselves. I know that's hard to accept.

KL911

I don't know what you want to say, but most of my quotes are from Arabs or Palestinian refugees themselves. I know that's hard to accept.

And didn't I agree with those quotes Kl911?

Didn't you see me criticize how the Arab governments handled the Zionist uprising and Palestinian situation?

So what you're saying is that Vladimir Jabotinsky, David Ben Gurion ,Moshe Dayan, Theodore Herzl, etc are all Palestinian/Arab refugees? mmm...interesting

Horus

Dear friends,

I love to continue this discussion, but it's 02.30AM here and I'm going to the bar. Talk to you next time? Just think about all the stuff you posted tonight, and if you really mean it..

KL911

Show me a valid point.......I don't see it. Maybe you better contact your propaganda department again? The stuff you post now works against you...

He replied with a very valid argument about Syrians hitting the Golan Heights, unlike you. You just spit out crap and never back up your points. He has quotes from the mouths of your leaders. That is a very valid way to argue.

And all these fights and wars, don't think they're for religion any more. It's simply politics.

It's politics, and where us Palestinians belong. We don't ask for all of Israel, all we want is to return to '67 borders, no more settlements, and the return of the Golan Heights - each of these points is fair and justified.

The Golan heights (unlike WB and GS) are part of Israel and will remain part of it.

They were stolen from Syria, and they do not belong to Israel.

Sorry, I forgot that you're only 16. You'll learn one day.

LOL! 16-20! so how do you know hes not 20? and if he was 16, he can think and discuss much better than you ever will. Why are you going for personal attacks? Cause you've been beaten in the argument?

Oh wait...maybe it was intentional...maybe The New York Times was intentionally trying to make Israel look bad, right?

The NY Times is ruled by Arab propoganda!

t's ashame to see you post so many racist messages. Actually, there are a few more here on this site.

Whats so racist?! And Arabs are the agressors? So we are aggressors even we were scared out of our homes, we were attacked in our villages and towns, and we had our cities & country stolen from us? And we're agressors today even though we are occupied, not occupying? You are worse than I though. And racist messeges? Go to your little resorts KL then talk about racist messages. Posting facts & the truth is not racist.

Democracy would solve that.

Just like it did in Iraq.

I still encourage Horus to travel to Israel and learn about it firsthand

Israel is a very bad example. Lebanon - now thats a better democracy to go see.

Deir Yassin is a lie? So even if what you posted was true, does that mean those hundreds of civilians that died and those woman who had their babies torn out their stomachs deserved it? Your a sick guy. Did the people at Sabra and Shatila also deserve it then?

and the utter degradation of the Arab women

Only in Saudi - have you been to Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Qatar, the UAE, etc? There is no degradation of woman - there is equality.

are the outstanding causes for the arrested development of the Arab.

Go to the UAE or Qatar then talk about development.

He is exactly as he was around the year 700, while we have been developing."

It takes someone like you to beleive that KL.

Don't blame me, blame the guy who made the quote.. One of the best generals ever in the US army.

That doesn't mean he knows anything about Arabs. Also - your leaders, again, made the quotes BA posted.

I know that's hard to accept.

But he did accept them.

Democracy would solve that.

Just like it did in Iraq.

Iraq is on its way to democracy. There is no reason Egypt cant be democratic. All prosperous nations are. There is a definite link between democracy and prosperity.

I still encourage Horus to travel to Israel and learn about it firsthand

Israel is a very bad example. Lebanon - now thats a better democracy to go see.

Why not go to both? Why are you afraid of travelling to Israel? You might enjoy it. Why not have an open mind about it?

are the outstanding causes for the arrested development of the Arab.

Go to the UAE or Qatar then talk about development.

The UAE and Qatar are a tiny part of the Arab world. The truth is that MOST of the Arab world is indeed still living in the dark ages.

Whilst you lot kill each other...could someone qualify this for me. I'm sure that I read that historically King David is thought to have bought the land which the Holy Jewish temple (now the Muslim Dome) was built, which would probably be around 500BC. I'll try and find the source later. Anyone else qualify that for me? Besides that though the fact is (and this is historical fact) the Hebrew Temple was there for hundreds of years before the Roman's flattened it and then (some time later) that Islamic temple was built on the rubble. So really, it is a Hebrew holy site first as the temple was THE cental place for Jews to worship, the Holy of Holies were contained within it's walls.

Seeing a mosque on top of the Holy temple would be equivalent to having a Baptist Church built on the main shrine in Mecca. The more i look at this conflict and see it ina biblical sense it just seems to be down to the descendants of Isaac and Ishmeal fighting over Abraham's inheritence like squabbling half brothers!

GC:

Here is a very short and simple abstract on the ancient history of Jerusalem:

3500 BCE
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jerusalem first settled on the Ophel above the Gihon Spring

19th Century BCE
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Jerusalem listed in the Egyptian Execration Texts —
first recorded mention of the city as Rusalimum




1750 BCE — 1500 BCE
The Hyksos Period


-----------------------------------------------------------------

14th Century BCE
The name Jerusalem appears in diplomatic correspondence
as Urusalim in the Amarna Letters
1010-970
The reign of King David
1003
King David establishes Jerusalem as Capital of
United Kingdom of Israel
970-931
The reign of King Solomon
950
King Solomon commences construction of the First Temple.
931
Division of Kingdom into Israel and Judah.
837-800
The reign of Hezekiah, King of Judah – tunnels conduit from Gihon spring to Siloam pool.
721
Assyrians conquer northern Kingdom of Israel and carry 10 of the 12 tribes into captivity and eventual dispersal.
701
Hezekiah successfully withstands Sennacherib's assault
on Jerusalem.
598-587
Nebuchadnezzar's second invasion
597
Babylonians capture Jerusalem
588-586
Nebuchadnezzar's third invasion
586
Destruction of Jerusalem and of the Temple by Nebuchadnezzar, and the exile of the Jews to Babylon (Lam 1.4 / 2.2)
539
Fall of Babylon




537 BCE — 332 BCE
The Persian Period


-----------------------------------------------------------------

538
Edict of Cyrus
537
Remnant of about 50,000 Jews return from Babylon by edict
of King Cyrus
520
Work begins on rebuilding the Temple
515
Completion and rededication of the Second Temple under
Zerubbabel (Ezra 6.15-18)
458
Ezra the Scribe comes from Babylon — Law revived
445
Nehemiah appointed governor of Judea by Artaxerxes,
return from Babylon – rebuilds city walls
397
Ezra, the Scribe initiates religious reforms




332 BCE — 63 BCE
The Hellenistic Period


-----------------------------------------------------------------

332
Alexander the Great defeats Daruis at Gaugamela and conquers
Palestine from the Persians (Daniel 11.3) captures Jerusalem
and Helenization begins
323
Death of Alexander in Babylon — Wars of Succession begin
320
Ptolemy I captures Jerusalem
320-198
Rule of the Egyptian Ptolemies
198-167
Rule of the Syrian Seleucids
169
Seleucid king, Antiochus IV Epiphanes (175-163) outlaws
Judaism and on December 25th, profanes the Temple




167 BCE — 63 BCE
The Hasmonean Period


-----------------------------------------------------------------

166
The priest Mattathias begins Maccabean revolt
167-141
Maccabean War of Liberation
164
Judah Maccabee recaptures Jerusalem and restores the Temple
166-160
Rule of Judah the Maccabee
160-143
Rule of Jonathan
150
Essene community founded
143-135
Rule of Simon Maccabeus


63 BCE — 324 CE/AD

The Roman Period
-----------------------------------------------------------------


63
General Pompey captures Jerusalem for Rome
63-37
Hasmonean rules continues but under the protection of Rome
40
Rome appoints Herod King of Judea
40-AD 4
Reign of Herod the Great
37
King Herod the Great captures Jerusalem
19
Preparation of stones for the rebuilding of the Temple
18
Herod starts actual rebuilding of the Temple
10
Although not complete until AD63, Temple is dedicated
About 5/4
John the Baptist, Jesus of Nazareth born (year approximate)
04
Herod the Great dies

BCE to CE/AD

26-36
Pontius Pilate, Roman procurator of Judea for 10 years

31 April 25 / Nisan 14
Crucifixion of Jesus

41-44
Agrippa, king of Judea, builds new city wall (The "Third Wall").
44
Death of Herod Agrippa
63
Temple completed
64
66-73
The Great Revolt - The War of the Jews
against the Romans
70
Fall of Jerusalem and destruction of the Second
Temple by Titus
73
Fall of Masada
132-135
Bar Kochba's war of freedom - Jerusalem again the Jewish
Capital
135
Emperor Hadrian's total destruction of Jerusalem and building
of new walls and new city renamed Aelia Capitolina — Jews not
allowed in Jerusalem




324 — 638
The Byzantine Period


-----------------------------------------------------------------

326
Queen Helena, mother of Emperor Constantine the Great, visits
Jerusalem, determines locations of events associated with the last
days of Jesus, and causes churches to be build to commemorate
them, most notably the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in AD 335.


438
Empress Eudocia permits Jews to live in Jerusalem
614
Persian conquest of Jerusalem — They destroy most churches
and expel Jews
629
Recaptured by Byzantines.




638 — 1099
The Early Muslim Period


-----------------------------------------------------------------

638
Six years after Mohammed's death, the Caliph Omar enters
Jerusalem and Jews are readmitted to Jerusalem
691
Dome of the Rock completed by Caliph Abd al-Malik
701
The construction of the al-Aqsa mosque completed
by Caliph al-Walid
1010
Caliph al-Hakim orders destruction of synagogues
and churches




1099 — 1244

The Crusader Kingdom
-----------------------------------------------------------------

1099
Crusaders, led by Godfrey de Bouillon, capture of
Jerusalem following Pope Urban's call in 1096.
Baldwin I declared King of Jerusalem
1187
Kurdish general Saladin captures Jerusalem from Crusaders.
He permits Jews and Muslims to return and settle in the city.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
1192
Richard the Lion Heart attempts to re-capture Jerusalem
but fails.
Treaty with Saladin permitting Christians to worship at their
Holy sites.
1219
City walls razed by Sultan Malik-al-Muattam
1244
Khawarizmian Turks capture Jerusalem. End of Crusader rule.



1260 — 1517

The Mameluk Period


-----------------------------------------------------------------

1244
Mameluk Sultans defeat the Ayyubids and rule Jerusalem
1260
The Mameluks of Egypt capture Jerusalem
1267
Rabbi Moshe Ben Nahman (Nahmanides) arrives from Spain,
revives the Jewish congregation and establishes synagogue and
center of learning bearing his name.
1275
Marco Polo stops in Jerusalem on his way to China
1348
The Black Death Plague hits Jerusalem
1488
Rabbi Obadiah of Bertinoro settles in Jerusalem and
leads the community.




1517 — 1917
The Ottoman Turkish Period


-----------------------------------------------------------------

1517
Ottomans effect peaceful takeover of Jerusalem
1537-1541
Unwalled since 1219, Sultan Suleiman ("The Magnificent"),
rebuilds the city walls including the present day 7 gates and the
"Tower of David." The Damascus gate in 1542.
1700
Rabbi Yehuda He'Hassid arrives, starts building
"Hurva" Synagogue
1836
First visit of Sir Moses Montefiore
1838
First consulate (British) opened in Jerusalem
1860
First Jewish settlement outside walls of the city
1898
Visit by Dr. Theodor Herzl, founder of the World Zionist
Organization.




1917 — 1948
The British Mandate Period


-----------------------------------------------------------------

1917
British conquest and General Allenby's entry into Jerusalem.
1918
Dr. Chaim Weizmann lays foundation stone of
Hebrew University on Mount Scopus.
1920
Sir Herbert Samuel appointed first British High Commissioner
and "Government House" established in Jerusalem.
1925
Hebrew University buildings inaugurated.
1947
United Nations Resolution recommending the partition of Israel.




1948
State of Israel


-----------------------------------------------------------------

14 May 1948
British Mandate ends and State of Israel Proclaimed.
14 May 1948-Jan 1949
Israel War of Liberation.
28 May 1948
New City of Jerusalem remains intact but Jewish Quarter in
Old City falls.
April 1949
Israel-TransJordan Armistice Agreement signed, whereby
Jerusalem divided between the two countries.
13 Dec 1949
Jerusalem is Declared Capital of the State of Israel.
1965
Teddy Kollek elected Mayor of Jerusalem
5 June 1967
Jordan shells and mortars New City on opening day of
the Six Day War.
7 June 1967
Israeli troops capture Old City and Jerusalem reunites.
23 June 1967
Moslems and Christians and Jews again given access
to their Holy Places.
1980
Jerusalem Basic Law enacted declaring united Jerusalem to be capital of Israel.
1994
Mutual recognition of Israel and the PLO