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European Forces Do Nothing In Darfur

Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2004 3:15 am
by N771AN
Darfur Death Count: 300,000

Money spent: 80 Million Euros

Stuff Done: Nothing

http://www.sudantribune.com/article.php3?id_article=6353

RE: European Forces Do Nothing In Darfur

Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2004 3:20 am
by Staffan
Yeah, let's nuke 'em!

Staffan

RE: European Forces Do Nothing In Darfur

Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2004 3:29 am
by wietse
hint: Perhaps we could indeed let other nations sort out their problems. How about that.

RE: European Forces Do Nothing In Darfur

Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2004 3:30 am
by N771AN
Africa is the European's mess... you clean it up.

RE: European Forces Do Nothing In Darfur

Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2004 3:38 am
by wietse
 Laugh out loud

RE: European Forces Do Nothing In Darfur

Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2004 3:43 am
by Falcon84
Well, 771AN, we're too busy fucking up Iraq to do anything about that,so maybe you should just keep your pie hole shut about others?

[Edited 2004-11-06 19:43:28]

RE: European Forces Do Nothing In Darfur

Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2004 3:45 am
by Derico
Shipments this week came extra-Laced, huh?

Calm down everyone. Quite frankly, this Europe-US crap is getting out of hand. I'm considering petitioning A.net to ban them.

RE: European Forces Do Nothing In Darfur

Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2004 5:26 am
by EGGD
Hehe, the whole of Europe is supposed to aid with the US's mayhem in Iraq, yet Sudan is 'Europes fault' and Europe should clean it up Big grin

RE: European Forces Do Nothing In Darfur

Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2004 5:47 am
by david b.
Darfur is Europe's fault as Iraq is the US's fault. Great logic N771.

RE: European Forces Do Nothing In Darfur

Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2004 5:59 am
by Udo
And don't forget to blame Europe for millions starved to death on the whole continent, e.g. Ethiopia. Don't forget to blame Europe for the massacre in Rwanda. Don't forget to blame Europe for every single death since the first European has put a foot on African ground.

N771AN, next time when you spray bugs in your garden, make sure you wear a mask...  Wink/being sarcastic


Regards
Udo

RE: European Forces Do Nothing In Darfur

Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2004 6:48 am
by dl021
HEy, while it may not be completely europes fault...there is a certain large responsibility borne by the former colonizing powers who created false borders and left their former colonies with little or no real infrastructure or educated populace capable of managing their own freedom. Once the decolonization fever took hold Europe abandoned its responsibilities and took the easy way out by leaving without ensuring freedom and democracy, thus laying the groundwork for corrupt dictatorships to instigate revolutions that sponsored terrorism which then spread and became todays problems.

What would have happened if the colonizing powers had taken a generation to de-colonize, requiring education of all children and requiring escalating staged-growth democracy prior to leaving? What would have happened had the Rwandans and Burundis had been left with real borders based on tribal regions instead of leaving artificial borders where the traditional enemies were expected to maintain a precarious political situation? What if the Euros had spent more time developing the societies there to instill a greater value for life? What is the Euros were willing to intervene in the genocide....the very same type behavior they promised to never again allow after WWII?

The Euros have plenty of messes of their own creation to deal with..starting with Cote d'Ivoire, where the French are facing an escalating level of violence right now, and we are helping them as much as possible. Not criticizing them or accusing them of being the reason this area is screwed up to begin with.


RE: European Forces Do Nothing In Darfur

Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2004 6:57 am
by MaverickM11
Are you surprised? To actually do something would mean that someone would have to commit to what they've actually said should be done. We can't have that! You need at least a dozen more years and two dozen more resolutions before we can actually begin to fathom doing something. Here's me shocked:  Yeah sure.

RE: European Forces Do Nothing In Darfur

Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2004 7:03 am
by N771AN
Facitiousness is lost on many of you... maybe I should switch my tactic.

"In any moment of decision, the best thing you can do is the right thing, the next best thing is the wrong thing, and the worst thing you can do is nothing"

RE: European Forces Do Nothing In Darfur

Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2004 7:21 am
by HeyMach
... Europe abandoned its responsibilities and took the easy way out by leaving without ensuring freedom and democracy....

For a large part I agree with you Dl021, but let us not forget that the Truman administration keen in bolstering the UN charter forced most of the weakened European countries out of the colonial possessions. The "right to self-determination" was watch word of the time (something we might consider today). It meant that European countries, keen on being included in the Marshall Plan, "let go" of their colonial possessions knowing in some cases that the new borders would cause problems in later years.

Do not misinterpret this as a post as saying it's the US fault (yet again). What I am trying to make clear is that in the new world order that arose from WWII, the US was able, in certain cases, to force former colonial powers to rightly relinquish their possessions. In some cases, notably Belgium and Portugal, it had no sway. That said, Africa is and must be on Europe's conscious

RE: European Forces Do Nothing In Darfur

Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2004 7:38 am
by greenjet
Africa is the European's mess... you clean it up.

The US is Europe's mess too. Let's clean that up while we're at it  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

RE: European Forces Do Nothing In Darfur

Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2004 7:41 am
by N771AN
The US is Europe's mess too. Let's clean that up while we're at it

You already tried and had your ass handed to you... you're more than welcome to try again. However, if I were you, I'd start in the blue states.  Smile

[Edited 2004-11-06 23:46:54]

RE: European Forces Do Nothing In Darfur

Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2004 8:01 am
by Falcon84
The Euros have plenty of messes of their own creation to deal with..starting with Cote d'Ivoire

And yet you have the balls to support, and, dare I say, ignore, the shit we're doing in Iraq? If you're going to critisize Europe for all that stuff, it's pretty two-faced when you kow-tow to Bush on the nightmare that he created in Iraq.

RE: European Forces Do Nothing In Darfur

Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2004 8:41 am
by JeffM
"..dare I say, ignore, the shit we're doing in Iraq?"

LOL.... too funny again...

What is the answer then? Quit pointing that crooked little finger and suggest a {gasp} solution. I know it is against all your principles but give it a shot. Even though the majority of the country does not share your beliefs, some of us still get a kick out of hearing them.  Big grin

This ought to be good...

RE: European Forces Do Nothing In Darfur

Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 1:41 am
by gkirk
N771AN, your way out of line on this one. As is anyone who agree's with him

RE: European Forces Do Nothing In Darfur

Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 1:43 am
by N771AN
N771AN, your way out of line on this one. As is anyone who agree's with him

It was meant to be out of line and completely sarcastic.

RE: European Forces Do Nothing In Darfur

Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 4:53 am
by dl021
Just for the record, Falcon, we are assisting the French both diplomatically and militarily in Cote-d'Ivoire as it is in our interest to do so. The stability of West Africa is in trouble and I am simply recognizing the one of sources of the problems to demonstrate that the Europeans have their own issues when it comes to bringing peace to a corner of the world that does not have it. I criticze the Bush administration when deserved, but I happen to think that fighting for freedom and democracy is a good thing, and the second that I think we are there for the wrong reasons I will stand up and say so. OUr national interest is being served there, in spite of what the Euros seem to be saying. I am rarely two faced (I'm not perfect, but I try to do right) and my support for our policy is not blind or uninformed. It is just different than yours and you don't see me yelling at you for your views. I think you're wrong about alot of stuff, but discussing it is more productive to growth than hurling insults or offering disparaging comments.

RE: European Forces Do Nothing In Darfur

Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 5:07 am
by GDB
Most former UK colonies were left with institutions for democracy and rule of law, many had decent infrastructure, now former Asian colonies, they have largely prospered, it is Africa that is the running sore.
Once you leave, well, you've left, so if some tyrant shuts down and destroys everything positive you left behind, do you invade every time?
France at least is trying to do something.

I think we need to take no lectures from members of a nation who killed 2 million in Vietnam (still didn't win so many would not have been combatants?), who have for all the 20th century installed and aided some of the worst regimes, largely in 'their backyard' of Central America, many of these regimes robbed the nations blind, with terrible effect on the populace.
As a former colony, you'd think you'd know better, so what happened? Too busy congratulating yourseleves on your purity?

People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones, most in Europe are well aware of the negative effects of their history, contrast that with the total denial of many in the US on your less savory parts of your history.

RE: European Forces Do Nothing In Darfur

Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 5:12 am
by TechRep
Here are 1546 reasons to hate Bush. Falcon84 insert your next rant here!
http://www.thousandreasons.org/listB.html

TechRep

RE: European Forces Do Nothing In Darfur

Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 5:12 am
by mauriceb
300 000 death because we do nothing in darfur...... yeah that's because half of the Dutch army is in irak helping youre army  Wink/being sarcastic

RE: European Forces Do Nothing In Darfur

Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 5:13 am
by N771AN
People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones

There it is people... the whole point of this thread.

RE: European Forces Do Nothing In Darfur

Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 5:15 am
by N771AN
Maurice,

Your total army is 2212 troops?  Confused

RE: European Forces Do Nothing In Darfur

Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 5:18 am
by TechRep
N771AN,

For this argument it is!

TechRep

RE: European Forces Do Nothing In Darfur

Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 5:20 am
by mauriceb
nope, i count every thing that isn't in holland . we have the dutch caribean and other places were we are very active , owh And we are in Afghanistan... to Help americans.... and dont forget you have a mavise number of Soldiers that are in Amerika, we don't. We must have some soldier in Holland to defend our country.

RE: European Forces Do Nothing In Darfur

Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 5:21 am
by mauriceb
mavise is masive :-P



sorry

RE: European Forces Do Nothing In Darfur

Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 5:24 am
by TechRep
MauriceB,

Just having some fun relax.

TechRep

RE: European Forces Do Nothing In Darfur

Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 5:25 am
by mauriceb
Techrep: >MauriceB,

Just having some fun relax.

TechRep<


sorry but bashing us is not funny, it sounds a bit un-thanksful


RE: European Forces Do Nothing In Darfur

Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 5:31 am
by peterpuck
Hey Maurice,

The better half of the North American continent appreciates your countries efforts around the world.

RE: European Forces Do Nothing In Darfur

Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 5:39 am
by dl021
maurice...hey cowboy, come back in from space...the Dutch have the equivilant of a battalion in Iraq. Valuable to be sure, and respected, but not half the army. You have a complete division of mechanized troops in the active army, plus an airmobile brigade and a marine brigade. There are enough troops to help inSudan if the political will is there. I think the Dutch will do what is right.

GDB...in another post I pointed out that the exception to the rule in leaving mass confusion behind them was the UK. Their African possessions fared less well than Asian, but I will agree with your point in this area.

To your other points..you should look at Vietnam with the perspective that we were left to deal with a French mess, as well as with the policy of containment we pursued. By fighting in Vietnam we prevent further destabilization in the region, including Thailands. We did lose the political battle for the government of Vietnam, but it was a defeat we suffered at home more than anywhere else.

As far as Central America goes, learn more about it. We supported regimes that were anti-communist, just as the British did. We also helped move these regimes towards democracy, and now Honduras, Panama, El Salvador, Nicaragua and others have functioning democracies and good relations with us. Our strategy and tactics in the region were founded in our experience of Vietnam, and we were determined to win the political battles as well as the military ones. The Soviets and Cubans made a real effort to gain a communist foothold on the continent, and our actions were once again framed by the larger cold war. If you want to argue about dictators, fine, but our enemies wanted to support dictators who would take orders from them and would never have encouraged democracy as we did. We helped the people of the region over the long and short terms, and if you doubt it look at the public remarks of the regions leaders, and go visit.

We have certainly done things of which we should be ashamed, but I would say that the end result is something worthwhile. The greatest nation on earth in terms of economic and military power is a democracy that supports other democracies and works to help those in need. Do we live in a glass house? not really...there are windows to break but the foundation is deepset solid reinforced concreteand, the walls are brick. I respect much of what you have to say, but I think that your characterization of our ignorance is unfounded and unrealistic. I recognize our faults, I just think that the sum of our positives outweighs the negatives..of which we are highly aware and constantly discuss.

RE: European Forces Do Nothing In Darfur

Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 2:41 am
by GDB
You are kidding about C. America, and South America too?
Communism in Argentina? When?
Allende in Chile was left wing true, he was also elected.
In any case, much of the worst US behavior in that region was before the Cold War, before WW2.

It led to the situation in the 70's/80's, when Guatemala, run by a truly vile line of dictators, originally installed by the US to replace an elected government, was threatening the British Dependency of Belize, it got to the point where troops, helicopters, surface to air missiles, a warship and a flight of Harriers, had to be maintained in Belize, to ward off a regime supported by the US!
Communism didn't enter into it, if a major NATO ally thought that this was not an issue, why did the US?
Only years after Belize went independent, once that threatening regime was gone across the border, did UK forces withdraw.

Then there was the marked lack of support for several weeks at the start of the Falklands crisis, that some in the US government even considered the regime in Argentina as worthy of support was very telling, the US came round in the end, after the Junta were proved to be a bunch of drunken thugs, as Al Haig found out first hand.
Also, Weinberger warned that if Argentina got away with it, one result could well be that Thatcher would be out of office, replaced by a Labour Party that was then anti nuclear, all US and UK weapons gone from UK soil, really anti any US bases being here, anti NATO too, so coming on our side eventually was not a 'Special Relationship', just what's better for the US.

Vietnam was a French mess true, but they got out, all the US did was prop up regimes in the South every bit as brutal as the North, only more corrupt.
In WW2, Giap's forces often aided the escape and evasion of downed US aircrew, he was feted by the US in the immediate post war period, which encouraged him to move against the French.

France has a funny relationship with it's former African colonies, they largely did what we did on withdrawal, but they've been more proactive in trying to put things right when it's all gone to shit out there.
Are they right? I don't know, should the UK have overthrown Idi Amin for example?
Whatever you do, your dammed, either for neglect or trying to 're-colonize'.

We did consider overthrowing Ian Smith in Rhodesia, when he declared independence to pre-empt the UK insisting on Majority rule, i.e. letting the Africans and not just the colonists vote.
Instead, he was embargoed, the UK was the first to ban arms sales to South Africa in the 60's, a decade before the rest of the world.

But today, you have Mugabe destroying his nation, he partly gets away with it as he knows how to play to the gallery citing 'White Colonlism'.

Bravo to anyone trying to do something, but Sudan?
Really, this is one for the African Union, they are in Sierra Leone now, but only after British forces stabilized the situation in 2000 and got rid of one of the main insurgent groups.
Sudan was a UK colony, now Blair did make noises about sending troops to secure aid, only to get a rebuff from the AU.
So saying 'something should be done' is the easy part.





RE: European Forces Do Nothing In Darfur

Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 2:50 am
by zak
typical right wing junk.

fact: there are no european forces in dafour, the eu only funds the african peacekeepers.

important to point out: a sudanese newspaper in a country that isnt known to be the beacon of free press, will never report unbiased. it is actually so that if the paper wasnt pro khartoum dicatatorship, it would most likely not exist at all. so there is little suprise that they try to discredit the african union/eu effort to stop the GOVERNMENT BACKED genocide.

RE: European Forces Do Nothing In Darfur

Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 2:55 am
by JGPH1A
Send a gunboat !

Signed
Sir Bufton Tufton

Great Waffling
Hants