http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/ap/20041221/ap_on_go_pr_wh/bush


So, all you Iraq war fans and supporters-B757300, Jcs17, DL021, James86, and all the other conservative members. Take a cue from your president-even he says how that the situation there isn't so great.

I have to agree with you on this one. Things AREN'T going too well.

It's just too bad that most war protesters are/were not against the war per se, but they hate(d) Bush and used this as an excuse to pounce all over him.

Maybe someone finally needs to come out and say that maybe Iraqis don't want democracy. These are people who have, for generation after generation have been duking it out over lean-to shantys in the desert. They know no other existance.

Personally I didn't mind Bush too much before the war. I didn't really think highly of him, but I didn't think bad of him either. Then when the war started, shi-ite hit the fans, I kinda had the thought that it would turn out like vietnam, and lo and behold here we are.

Now with talk of Iran, I really sincerely hope that Bush doesn't pull a Nixon and invade the country covertly like Tricky Dick did to Cambodia. If this were to happen, I'd probably end up getting drafted.

I can honestly say that I don't know if I'd dodge or not, I might go fight if I'm drafted but I won't be happy about it.

It's just too bad that most war protesters are/were not against the war per se, but they hate(d) Bush and used this as an excuse to pounce all over him.

I have to disagree, Matt. I think most people who say they are against the war are vehemently against it, and it only re-inforced the image they have of Bush. The two feed off each other.

Matt D: I have to agree with you on this one. Things AREN'T going too well.

Surprise, surprise...  



Matt D: It's just too bad that most war protesters are/were not against the war per se, but they hate(d) Bush and used this as an excuse to pounce all over him.

Ridiculous. The factual arguments - which have all turned out to be correct beyond a doubt - were already reason enough. The universal disdain for Bush is a result of his blatant refusal to listen to anything rather than a cause for the complaints.


Matt D: Maybe someone finally needs to come out and say that maybe Iraqis don't want democracy. These are people who have, for generation after generation have been duking it out over lean-to shantys in the desert. They know no other existance.

Maybe some people will have to learn that dropping cluster-bombs and kicking down doors isn´t the proper way to convince others of the merits of democracy...  

I love it when others say that they (the people in the country) 'want' democracy, yet don't understand why its not working or why they don't 'grasp' the concept. Pretty simple on paper but harder to put into effect. We've had a handy 200 years to iron it out a bit, but still countries that are most likely to plung into civil war are emerging democracies.

The most dangerous transition is from long term dictatorship to a democracy.

Every crackpot faction has a voice and begins organizing. This is what happens when freedom comes popping out of its push-up bra, things get wobbly really fast. That's only the beginning of the usual chain of events that we've seen before in Latin America, Easter Europe and Afghanistan. Where do we go from here is my question?

ALL of this (Iraq) harkens back to fmr Treasury Secretary Paul O'Neill (his name is on your money) when that rich old white conservative disclosed that he was absolutely shocked that at Dubya's 1st cabinet meeting (8 months before 9/11) Dubya starts asking 'How can we get in Iraq?'.. still.. to this day we don't know what propelled him to raise and push that question so doggedly!

1)Our nation had not been attacked...

2) Saddam was still a ruthless dictator... as was Lil' Kim (Jong Il -- who still is)

3)Yet more innocent civilians were being slaughtered in the Congo and Sudan.

So it could not have been 'a humanitarian issue' at the time he asked the question... because if it was.. he would have asked his buddies the Saudis.. to step it on the 'democracy thing' because we're gonna be 'selling it in a neighbor near you....'

For those of you who feel compelled to burp out 'That's old news. We're there now, so let's just finish it'...

Well don't you think it wise to know how it happened in the 1st place... so YOU don't get duped ...AGAIN! It's called history, and when you don't learn from it the 1st time... you asking to get bitten in the ass a second time.

BN747

It seems to me that people like to damn Bush no matter what -- regardless of what he says. That's what I like to do, anyway.

History? You'd be better off if you read some I'd say based on historical facts when the United States fails to act.

We acted and now you are in it just like the rest of us up to your little neck and there is nothing you can really do except hope we win this fight.

Errrr, you do want to win don't you?

Bush has acknowledged that Americans' resolve has been shaken by grisly scenes of death and destruction. Yeah...people like the pigeon84 who cries and cries but does nothing.

Again, bright boy, I've asked you before: what would you like me to do? All I've heard from you Corporal_Rabb, is bitching about that I do nothing? What are you doing, besides bitching at me? I do what I can: make my views known. That's really all I can do, isn't it?

You're such a Bush sycophant, it's really amusing.

Yeah pidgeon, sure you do! Aid and comfort to the enemy..

With all respect, you can go to hell for such remarks, my friend. If exercising my constitutional rights to protest my government when I think it is wrong is aiding and comforting the enemy, then let's just trash that document and the Bill of Rights, shall we? You critisized Mr. Clinton, I'm sure, for all you were worth, but when I do the same to this president, I'm some kind of traitor?  

Stick it where the sun don't shine, Corporal_Rabb. You're the absolute worst kind of American, who wants everyone to say "seig heil" and goose step with this man in Washington. Sorry, but I'll continue to be patriotic, and voice my opinion on what I think our government is doing wrong.

You'd be better off if you read some I'd say based on historical facts when the United States fails to act.

Maybe you, Corporal_Rabb, ought to read up on history about what happens when a nations strikes pre-emptively and without real justification. But I don't think you're smart enough to figure it out.

We acted and now you are in it just like the rest of us up to your little neck and there is nothing you can really do except hope we win this fight.

Errrr, you do want to win don't you?

What you can't figure out in that little brain held up by a smaller is neck is that 'There is no winning' ...

This is a battle that can't be won. Sure the troops can ultimately come home from Iraq and Afghanistan.. but what's going happen HISTORY (your apparent weakness) will undo everything our troops have done. The people there have 'their way of doing things' and they will sink back into their long and storied way of getting this done.. as culturally and distasteful to us as it may be...


In a fight you shouldn 't be in... in the 1st place... there is never a winner.. grow the fcuk up and learn something.

Even when we do win... we still lose. The US vs Iraq (insurgents).. the US can beat any nation on the planet.. winning is not the question..idiot! It's learning from History...AGAIN!

BN747

Commander Rabb, please stop while your behind my friend. You are just making this situation look worse. Your cover up's are getting old just like the Administrations. Face it, the war isnt going the right way.

[Edited 2004-12-21 06:02:42]

BN747 The defeatest. Give in do you?

We should have known! In my book there is nothing worse.

Rabb,

Is this your book?    

I think the problem now is how to solve the issue. I think nobody in his right mind is interested in a USA looking like a paper tiger (which will happen if the US pulls out unconditionally like in Somalia). But on the other hand, the insurgents and militants are slowly winning, like the Vietcong in Vietnam, simply because they are willing to sacrifice huge amonts of their own population.
Also, I think nobody in his right mind would like to have an anarchy in Iraq, where OBL and other radicals can find a lawless space to train and retreat, like Afghanistan under the Taliban.
Also, everybody should be happy to be rid of Saddam Hussein.

Now, the problem is that Bush´s attitude is seen over here as being arrogant and power hungry.
Almost all Europeans resent his "giving us the finger" attitude. I think with a new president Krry, there might have been a chance to get massive European support to get Iraq and Afghanistan sorted, with full UN approval.
I think e.g. Schroeder is secretly happy about Bush winning the election, because else Kerry would have asked for military support, which Schroeder couldn´t have denied, giving Schroeder lots of trouble at home.

The thing is that the current US administration drove the campaign into the mud. Nobody over here trusts the Bush administration, but I think in the end they´ll need Europe to get out of it again.
I see the American forces winning battles, just like in Vietnam, through theirt advanced technology, but loosing the war, because in the end it is the behaviour of the grunt on the ground that counts. What is the use of using a laser guided high tech bomb to destroy a terrorist´s safe house, if at the same time, you´ll destroy all other houses within 400 yards, turning everybody affected into new terrorists and terrorist supporters?


Jan

If for no other reason, the war is going well because the terrorists are swarming to Iraq where our military already is and we're inflicting disproportionate attrition upon them on a daily basis. It is better that the terrorists go where our military is, so we can kill them rather than the terrorists coming here and killing innocent civilians.

You have all earned this for this liberal lovefest. Even the conservatives for lacking the common sense to not just let this left-wing circle jerk run its course and fall into page 2 oblivion

BN747: "the US can beat any nation on the planet.. winning is not the question..idiot! It's learning from History..."

C'Rabb:BN747 The defeatest. Give in do you?

Proof positive that a human can very well be 'stupid and dumb' simultaneously... and totally unaware of both...

..and still be disqualified for the 'Special Olympics'...

BN747

I support the Troops, not the war.

CommanderCRAP said ...a constant anti-Bush and America RANT.

Suuuuure, asking our government the 'hard' questions (how/why/when/evidence?) is completely wrong, but totally brown nosing in their asscrack is fine because it makes you American???

I say you're more American when you speak out, use your 1st amendment right to question the gov and know the truth.

All I want is to know the truth - right now we're slowly figuring out that 1,500 AMERICAN soldiers have died for BUSH - not for protecting their country, but for Bush - because he LIED about war... And while we're at it, we're saying how great democracy is/will be - yet when more people die a year after the *Saddam the tyrant* we blame the insurgents...


Sure democracy is better, but at what price?

Is it at a price of 1,500 US soldiers who went and fought for lies our government spewed?

Is it at a price of 100,000 Iraqi civillian deaths a year (mind you the average for a year during Saddam was 60-70 thousand)?

Is it at a price of making our, no MY beloved country look like a bunch of arrogant, ignorant people who don't understand or realize that there are other nations/countries/opinions?

Is it at a price of taking America and bringing it from the most respected nation in the world to the same level as a 3rd world nation?


My answer is NO...

I'm as proud to be an American as any, but we HAVE to draw the line - We're not the only country in the world, we're not morally better, and we don't have the right to barge in to other countries and tell them how to run things while Bush tells Syria to get their nose out of our business. It's a double standard we have set, and we have to get rid of it. Bring back the American Dream!!!

It is better that the terrorists go where our military is, so we can kill them rather than the terrorists coming here and killing innocent civilians.


Now there's the best damn line in this whole thread!


And here's the worst.


winning is not the question..idiot! It's learning from History..."


Thank God more people who have the ability to make changes think like the first line and not the latter.


Yes, thank God!

If for no other reason, the war is going well because the terrorists are swarming to Iraq where our military already is and we're inflicting disproportionate attrition upon them on a daily basis. It is better that the terrorists go where our military is, so we can kill them rather than the terrorists coming here and killing innocent civilians.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!

OMG, that one had me rolling! You are a piece of work, B757300!!! His new spin is the war is going well because we've let terrorists flood the country! HAHAHAHAHA!! Oh, stop it, you're killing me!!

You see folks-this is the idiocy of the extreme right. It speaks for itself.

Now there's the best damn line in this whole thread!

Of course you'd think that, Corporal, since you're as naive, as clueless, as ignorant as B757300. If you REALLY believe that was a great line, then you have absolutely no credibility. We tear a nation to shreds, we let terrorists in by the thousands, and YOU SUPPORT IT!!! Fool.

And this is the ignorant mindset we've put back into office. How CAN 59 million people be so retarded?

And this is the ignorant mindset we've put back into office. How CAN 59 million people be so retarded?

Still bitter over the Bush victory? Your bitterness is clouding your reasoning.

Get over it already.

Bitter? Hardly. I do really wonder how so many people can be so conned by this group. The ignorance is amazing.

You have all earned this for this liberal lovefest. Even the conservatives for lacking the common sense to not just let this left-wing circle jerk run its course and fall into page 2 oblivion

Captoveur: Nearly pissed myself at your picture message, but seriously, how is this a liberal lovefest and a left-wing circle jerk? The topic of this thread is Bush's admission that perhaps things aren't going as well as he would like. We didn't create this story. BTW, when Bush says "The bombers are having an effect," isn't that like saying "the result of the action was that there was a result?".

Logan

P.S. -

liberal: open-minded, accepting.
conservative: close-minded, rejecting.

Thus, to a conservative, liberalism is, not surprisingly, an abhorrent concept. To a liberal, conservativism is something we accept, and try to live with.

Now, which sounds more conducive to peace? Isn't peace the goal of every war? Or is it?

Things just took a huge turn for the worse....at least 20 US soldiers killed this morning in Iraq in an attack on a mess hall.

More kids without fathers and mothers so the Bush family can sleep in a nice warm bed in a nice big house in an exclusive neighborhood.

Logan22L, your definition of Liberal and Conservative is so far out of touch with reality, you should be ashamed of yourself.

Conservatism, yes, you are correct, but that same definition applies to all those who call themselves Liberal. Sorry, but the fact is that the extremes of the spectrum have their head so far up their asses, and are SO closed and narrow-minded, that it's mind-boggling. Hell, look at the posts of this very thread, 80% of it is nothing more than two rival circle-jerks between two groups of very unintelligent people making very unintelligent posts.

The thread starter only made this to antagonize one side...how open-minded is that? If I had made this thread, I would have asked the question and presented my views without baiting the right-wingers.

And then there are some of the oh so lovely right wing responses. They border on, nay, ARE delusional...which I guess complements the left's obsession nicely.

I hope and pray our soldiers come home soon. This war never should have been started...but unlike some, I don't launch into baseless conspiracy theories.

Pathetic. I spit on all of this.

B4e-Forever New Frontiers

For all of you that are young, and support the war, why not go sign up for the Army or the Marines? I hear they are offering large signing bonuses, so why not shut up and put up, all in the same action.

Here is what you can look forward to:

http://digitaljournalist.org/issue0412/purplehearts__thumbs.html

You too can loose an arm, a leg, or your vision, all in the name of cheap expensive oil.

And you can even interact with your fellow free citizens, member of the Iraqi army:

'U.S. Soldier Killed Iraqi Teenager after Sex'

Boeing4ever: Logan22L, your definition of Liberal and Conservative is so far out of touch with reality, you should be ashamed of yourself.

You've made my point in your response. In a sociological scenario, definitions morph to seek common ground. Hence, Communism looks and sounds great on paper, but sucks in practice.

The definitions I gave are accurate, it's just that society does not conform to the ideals of the definitions well. If a "liberal" is not open-minded to the possible need for war, then he is not a true liberal. If a conservative is willing to give up the status quo, he is not a true conservative.

If you had said my "definitions" do not represent what goes on in reality, by and large, I would agree with you. My definitions are not out of touch with reality. Society is out of touch with reality. Liberal and conservative still mean what they mean, regardless of whether people are capable of understanding the terms of pigeon-holeing themselves into one or the other.

As for Falcons thread starting, we all know his position; he merely posted a link to comments from Bush regarding Iraq. He didn't need to state his opinion on this. In fact, the first response was from a conservative, MattD, who basically agreed with him!

Later,

Logan

On that we agree Logan, except for the last part. A careful reread of Falcon's post shows a clear baiting and antagonization of some of our "colorful" right-wing members. In other words, he was looking for a flamewar.

B4e-Forever New Frontiers

More kids without fathers and mothers so the Bush family can sleep in a nice warm bed in a nice big house in an exclusive neighborhood.

What a stupid comment. What more can you say about such idiocy?

"You too can loose an arm, a leg, or your vision"

You make it sound like joining up is a sure way to lose a limb or die. If you look at the numbers there is a very low percentage of US soldiers with disabling injuries or dead compared to the total number of troops on the ground.

I could have a car wreck 10 minutes from now and lose a leg. What is your point? That there is a better chance of being killed in Iraq than in a car wreck? Maybe but I bet its not that much better.

Sorry some of us think fighting for freedom is our job only when the bad guys are in our back yards. I wonder who the true isolationists are then? Sorry for thinking maybe the world would be better off without Saddam. Sorry for supporting a war that may actually serve a positive purpose in the world even if the initial reasons were shown to be wrong. Move on with your lives, we are in this war now so we might as well support it. There is no point in making this any worse for the guys who have to fight it. You say you don't support the war but you do support the troops. How do you think these troops feel when they see and hear all the protests before they ship out? How do you think it makes them feel when they visit home and have to listen to the left-wing nutcases talking about how unjust the war is? Supporting the troops DOES mean supporting the war. They have a job to do, and I guess you want them to feel bad about doing it.

You have to remember that while we do have the smartest military in the world, not all of these guys are the sharpest tools in the shed and many of them are right around 18yrs old. How would you have felt when you were 18 if you had people calling your job unjust and illegal but saying they supported you doing it? For once in your life try putting yourself in the shoes of Pfc. Nobody and try seeing this from his perspective. Supporting him and the war are the same thing, in his eyes you cannot have one without the other. I guess you want him to second guess himself before he pulls the trigger on an insurgent, possibly costing him his own life. Sounds like troop support to me  

BTW this is a left wing circle jerk, you can tell from the thread starter this was only supposed to bait the right wingers and war supporters while the left wingers all get together and get their jollies bashing the administration and the war. A little maturity would go a long way with a few users here. If this thread was supposed to actually be an open forum for honest, intellectual discussion the title would have been more neutral and the opening post would have been less of a jab.


Continue your circle jerk, and try not to get any in the keyboard. Continue living like your way of thinking is the only one, it seems to work well for your party, look at how many seats they won in congress in the last election.

What a stupid comment. What more can you say about such idiocy?

My last statement isn't so eloquently put, I admit. The intent was to comment on the Bush family's ties to oil money and Saudi Arabia and how they put the personal safety of young Americans at risk to protect their investments.

Everything that flows from your keyboard is lunacy Rabb. When you're not spouting stupidity, you're launching personal attacks to deflect attention from your idiotic statements.

Is it a drug/alcohol problem or have you had your personality removed surically?

If this thread was supposed to actually be an open forum for honest, intellectual discussion the title would have been more neutral and the opening post would have been less of a jab.

Any thread is open for honest, intellectual discussion. The title questions whether the war is going well, and Bush acknowledges, essentially, that it is not going as well as it could.

There has been much vitriol from both the right and the left on the election and the war. This is to be expected. Why shouldn't we bash an Administration that makes, in our opinion, decisions based on bad judgement? Why should you not defend what you feel is the right course of action?

I'm happy to make most of my points in an even-handed way, but for anyone to complain that this is flame-bait, please, grow a skin. BTW, we are now talking more about the tone of the thread than the content. Anyone care whether the war is going well?

Logan

More kids without fathers and mothers so the Bush family can sleep in a nice warm bed in a nice big house in an exclusive neighborhood.

What a stupid comment. What more can you say about such idiocy?

That's the best you can come back with Commander-SuckUp??? Boy... you're slipping... well actually.... you've never posted an original witty retort.. esp. the truth smack you right across the puss!


StartOuevr... you're calling it a circle-jerk and you jerked about as much as anyone here... look at your posts! After posting that 'special pic' of you.. your message was (for what it's worth... was heard! Why expanded on by becoming center of your said 'circle-jerk'???

BN747

B757300: If for no other reason, the war is going well because the terrorists are swarming to Iraq where our military already is and we're inflicting disproportionate attrition upon them on a daily basis. It is better that the terrorists go where our military is, so we can kill them rather than the terrorists coming here and killing innocent civilians.

This fallacy indeed seems to be at the basis of the Bush administration´s failing strategy.

This would be only true if there was - for some strange reason - a finite reservior of terrorists which you simply have to exhaust to put an end to terrorism.

It is evident that this is not the case.

Terrorists are made, not born. And the primary "raw materials" for the creation of new terrorists out of ordinary citizens are resentment and a feeling of helplessness against an overpowering enemy to unite against.

The foolish invasion of Iraq is basically the equivalent of drenching the ground with fertilizer and then sowing weeds with full hands all around.

What you reap from it is an overall increase of terrorism, by no means anything like "reduction by attrition". It´s your last stand in trying to justify the indefensible, but even you are retreating step by step in view of the inevitable.

A solution is not an increase of oppression and an even more ruthless occupation; The only possible solution would be a major change in strategy and tactics. It would also be the precondition for a wider alliance that could spread the load even a constructive outcome would require.

But will the Bush administration be capable of such a turnaround? All evidence seems to indicate they aren´t. In that case, B757300, tighten your safety belt and hold on to your seat.  

I don´t envy you for the hole you´ve dug yourself into.

Captoveur...

May I say that your little pic that u posted was very very terrible. lol... its SO terrible to laugh at..... SHAME SHAME! (Yet I sadly find it hard to refrain from laughing and almost crying at the same time....lol) SHAME!

-AA777

I'm tired of these threads Falcon84. You complain, but have no solution. Is the situation in Iraq worse then it was before we came right now? Yes, of course, but that should have been expected pre-election. The situation we face now should not be solved with the plan you choose to take, Falcon. You decide to complain and point fingers every day of your life. Have you ever considered this? Maybe if people like yourself and I came in unity to push the Iraqi people to fight for their new government, it may end this violence. So far I haven't seen you say anything good about the situation; how is that going to encourage the Iraqi people for their future? What do you suggest we do? Suck it up, stop pointing fingers, and help build Iraqi confidence. These threads you start are junk.

Jalto27R: I cannot and won't speak for Falcon, but to say he offers no solution is a bit disingenuous. Suck it up, stop pointing fingers, and help build Iraqi confidence. The way I see it, it should not have been started in the first place, so you are basically saying "We've given you this pile of horse puke, build me a mansion out of it." NO. If my position is not considered, then my cooperation in solving your dilemma is not welcome. Now, go do some homework, kid.

Logan

From reading all this, it looks like a.net is full of Bambi-loving, tree-hugging, Bush-bashing Democra(p)ts.

The way I see it, it should not have been started in the first place, so you are basically saying "We've given you this pile of horse puke, build me a mansion out of it." NO. If my position is not considered, then my cooperation in solving your dilemma is not welcome. Now, go do some homework, kid.

Where did I say that? I said that Falcon needs to stop complaining, tell me, what is it accomplishing? Whether you agree with what happened or not, his bickering isn't going to end a single thing. We never gave them a pile of horse puke, we gave them freedom, they don't seem so enthusiastic about it. How can they when the media only shows negative and people like Falcon never..ever... shut up. You can sit there with your arms crossed going "No! I'm not helping anyone". You sound like a kid who won't pick up something someone else dropped on the floor cause 'it's not yours'. Everyone needs to help, whether they agreed with the situation in the first place or not. I would hope all you want a good outcome to this situation, maybe you need to say that instead of saying I refuse to help.

we gave them freedom, they don't seem so enthusiastic about it


Read my first reply (#5) for more insight.

New allegations of prisoner abuse at Abu Ghraib prison will not help.

http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2004/12/21/prisoner-abuse041221.html

No, the Iraq war isn't going well at all from the USA's situation. I had serious reservations about our decision to go to war, if for anything else, than the risks to our soldiers and the lack of senior partners besides the UK. To me, to the neocon-artists that control Bush and to some extent in the simplistic beliefs of Bush himself, he wanted to finish the Gulf War, without the UN in the way of getting to the real goal they were prevented from doing then - to remove Saddam and put a puppet government in place that would sell us and the world plenty of oil, not be part of OPEC, at a cheap price. I would note that there was justification for the Gulf War in that Saddam's Iraq had taken over the sovergin country of Kuwait.
Leading up to the current Iraq war, there was also the progressing scandal of the food-for-oil program, the horrendous life Iraqi's lived under Saddam and to some extent, that after 12 years of containment and destructive sanctions, Saddam was still in power, were also issues in the decisions and 'justifications' to go to war in Iraq. In the current war in Iraq, the intellegence as to WMD's were in large part lies by those opposed to Saddam, although if Saddam probably would have tried to revive the WMD programs if the UN and the USA was kept out for a while longer. Look at Iran today with their nuke programs, thumbing their nose at the world - that is what Saddam wanted to do too.
The US has lost almost 1200 soldiers, and our partners over 200 more. We have a brutal, terroristic and hateful insurgency against our troops oppossing out decisions to be there. The elections in January will be a farce, with continued insurgency, regional hates, the Shia's still wanting 60% control of the government equal to their population and the ex-Baathas's/Sunni anger over their loss of control of the government.
Iraq is a mess right now for all parties, and will continue to be so for many years, and at some point, like in Vietnam, we will have to withdraw to save our asses.

From reading all this, it looks like a.net is full of Bambi-loving, tree-hugging, Bush-bashing Democra(p)ts

About the same amount of NRA card-carrying, SUV-driving, anti-Environment, pro-war, want-to-have-Ann-Coulter's-baby Republicans.

LH423

I find it to be an open inviation to terrorists to say that they're having an effect on our morale and whatnot. Seems to me that's encouraging them?

War fan? When you have walked in my shoes and can discuss from experience what I feel about combat and war, then you are welcome to call me a war fan.

I originally supported the idea for going to war, just like the majority of this country, based on the sure and certain knowledge that Hussein was not to be trusted and was acting like he had much to hide. That was followed by the assumption based on the intel reports that everyone in our last two administrations held about Iraqi WMD's. We could not take the risk of the Iraqis actually having them, no matter what all the hindsight/monday morning quarterbacks are saying. I still say that with the information we had we had no other realistic choice. The risk that they had them and would dispose of them to preclude being caught with them, was too high to contemplate. We could not sit and wait to get hit first with this.

Our presence there is now a reality and I have yet to see anyone here do more than complain about what you are reading in the news. Other than MD11Engineer and Klaus (why is it that the US critics have nothing constructive to offer into the conversation?) no ideas for improvement are offered by the wars critics, no offers to do anything other than whine. How many of you have a loved one over there. A close friend, a brother, a child?

These guys are over there working to gove the Iraqis an opportunity to be free and have a self-determining government, no matter what the people who think that middle-easterners are not capable of comprehending such concepts say. They are working to insititute a democracy in a region that has never had one and will stand as an example to others in the region. If this example can work, and I will not believe what a previous poster said about the Iraqis being incapable of dealing with democracy, then the countries on either side of Iraq will have to modify their behaviour and government over the long run because their people will see what freedom offers up close, and see it in a fellow Islamic country.

I won't argue with anyone here about whether the war effort will come out well or not, we have had setbacks in every war. What has become apparent in the last 20 years is that as soon as casualties are had there are people who will call it a terrible defeat and demand our retreat. That was what happened in Somalia, and in Lebanon. Well, we are there in Iraq and in Afghanistan, and we cannot allow the sacrifices of the military and civilians who have been killed or the losses of the innocent bystanders go to waste. THis is the time to be tough and get going. If you cannot support the war causes, then decide whether you can support the troops by working toward a fruitful resolution to the conflict.

Jan, with all due respect, the comparisons between this conflict and Vietnam are superficial and easily magnified by those who really do not know the history or understand the reasons for Vietnam and its results. THe loss at home was as important as the ability of the VIetnamese to absorb everything thrown at them and still endure. But the Vietnamese just wanted all the foreigners out of their country after over 60 years of occupation by both western and eastern oppressors. They had nothing to lose, and this applied to most of the country. In Iraq this is different. There are a large number of people who want democracy and the number of people who will believe it possible will grow if we can stay the course and show the terrorists to be just that. As the terroristists continue to kill innocents and we continue to kill terrorists the willingness of people to continue to support the terrorists will diminish.

Falcon....You can call me a supporter of the administration, even a supporter of the war effort. Please do not call me a fan of war. I've been there, a couple of times, and did not really like it. I would do it again if there was a use for a bad kneed, busted up 37 year old infantry scout, but I'm no fan of war. It's bloody, murderous, you have to kill people and break shit, and you lose friends. The ptsd is real and I can only imagine how bad it has to be for these guys who have been there for over a year at a time. I have spent some time with friends who came back, and are returning there again. I have been to a funeral, and may have to go to another. I have had to explain to my friends mother what the jargon in a letter from her sons platoon sgt. meant concerning the circumstances surrounding the death of her son. I am no fan of war. There are plenty of things I dislike, however, that are sometimes necessary.

N766UA: I find it to be an open inviation to terrorists to say that they're having an effect on our morale and whatnot. Seems to me that's encouraging them?

Getting most of you into full panic mode was exactly what they intended anyway, so the only thing you could do to them would be to wake up, stop panicking and think about things that would actually hurt the terrorists instead of the civil populations...  

Like alienating the populations from the terrorists instead of driving people into their arms, for instance.

Very well said DL021, no wonder you are on my respected users list.  


My .02:

I don't think the war is going well, but I think Iraq will slowly get better. It will get worse before it gets better. Especially before the election date.

Klaus.... Tell me what you think the Coalition should do to gain the confidence of the population and convince them that freedom and democracy are going to work and the terrorists do not deserve their support?

(I hate that I have to say it, but there is no hostility in this question...it is a request for your views.)

dl021

Oh sure, the war is going just dandy. Tell that to the eighteen U.S. soldiers who died today.