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MaverickM11
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RE: B.U.S.H. Wants Another 80 Billion For Iraq

Tue Dec 28, 2004 4:30 am

"And just to think that ALL the money spent on Iraq could have been used to provide universal health care for all the citizens of the USA
"

You'd get a better return on that cash if you just burnt it.
I don't take responsibility at all
 
StowAway
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RE: B.U.S.H. Wants Another 80 Billion For Iraq

Tue Dec 28, 2004 4:32 am

The left thinks that FOX News is biased because it doesn't indulge their ideology like the rest of the elite press does. FOX News is doing well in the ratings because of this. Arniepie, I respect where you are coming from. I knew somebody would say that. I also used a source from CNN for that very reason.

Also, if you want another source from another "trusted" network:
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/10/18/al.zarqawi.statement/index.html

See that S12PPL? That is what facts look like.  Smile
A monkey's ass always talks crap.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: B.U.S.H. Wants Another 80 Billion For Iraq

Tue Dec 28, 2004 4:41 am

And just to think that ALL the money spent on Iraq could have been used to provide universal health care for all the citizens of the USA.

There'll be icycles around Satan's drawers before that happens here. I know it, you know it... what's the point in pining about it?



To believe the politicians when they say that reforming health care is too expensive and cannot be done is to believe a BIG LIE.

What you, and many of your ilk, don't seem to grasp is that there exists a significant difference between "reforming" USA health care and holistically socializing it. The former is overwhelmingly desired, the latter is not.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
Arniepie
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RE: B.U.S.H. Wants Another 80 Billion For Iraq

Tue Dec 28, 2004 5:02 am

Stowaway,

You seem to believe that because I'm coming from Europe I tend to be a liberal or a left winger.
My critique on the FOX network has more to do with the policy that R. Murdoc executes on all his media company's.
He is renowned, notorious, for his involvement of making and editing the news (reference: Almost all of his former employees that got fired or sidetracked for the ,in Rupert's eyes, wrong type of reporting.).
he does it in Australia, in the UK and also in the US.

Doing well in the ratings is by no means any kind of reference point.
It just means that a large part of the population watches the channel and for whatever reason like the format.

Also I certainly don't consider CNN to be a liberal channel, it is only liberal in the eyes of the conservatives in the US ,I assume.
In almost all of the rest of the world the US press is considered to be right, far right and extremely far right winged.

Just to give you an idea on my thoughts (if they are worth anything) on the issue at hand,I believe that once you are in Iraq you have to bite the bullet even if it costs you some extra money.
Quitting is not an option, not for the US and not for Iraq.
As for Europe and all the other rich country's, I think all the country's that had business with the Hussein regime also have to participate in the rebuilding of the country, also financially, even if they opposed the war.
The bulk of the load however have to be taken be the US and UK, if you go in without a valid reason you have to take the biggest responsibility.
In my opinion all the money that is needed to maintain the occupying forces in Iraq and all the money that is needed to make Iraq safe again (rebuild the police, army and hire private security forces) should be paid by the US and its allies also the infrastructure which they destroyed should be mainly paid by the "invaders".
The bill for the economic recovery should be fairly split by the US ,UK, EU and the rich Asian country's.

edited for spelling

[Edited 2004-12-27 21:05:26]

[Edited 2004-12-27 21:06:56]
[edit post]
 
AA777
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RE: B.U.S.H. Wants Another 80 Billion For Iraq

Tue Dec 28, 2004 5:10 am

We KNOW that all too well, which is why many/most of "us", like anyone with a shred of fiscal sense over the last two decades plus, not BASING our FINANCIAL FUTURES on it... now there's an idea

Unfortnately, not everyone is as lucky as you apparently are, concordeboy. Some people spend their entire lives living month to month, making little or no savings. My grandmother, for instance, depends on her social security check-- she worked hard her entire life, but never made alot of money. She didnt invest, she is from small-town Oklahoma.

I am lucky enough that I will probably not DEPEND of Social Security when I retire. But your point of view is that whoever wasnt smart enough, or just not lucky enough to have saved enough money to finish out their days is gonna suck up their tough luck and deal? Well you know what, that doesnt cut it. America is growing older, not younger right now. You know, Baby boomers. Millions of them will NEED social security. Instead of reforming S.S., and making sure that people will have SOMETHING, we go and blow BILLIONS of dollars on an unecessary war, in hopes of changing the Middle East. Bush's plans are complete crap. Domestically, Internationally. The dollar is at an all time low TODAY-- against the Euro. So Bush giving them the middle finger isnt exactly smart. And I know you just love that he tells france and germany "up yours." But they really dont care. Not when their currency is at an all-time high compared to the Legendary US Dollar. That is what Dubya has done to this nation. Ruined it.

-AA777
 
StowAway
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RE: B.U.S.H. Wants Another 80 Billion For Iraq

Tue Dec 28, 2004 5:17 am

Arnie,I don't know that much on R. Murdoc, so I can't really say anything about him. I just watch FOX News because I have watched other sources. I can tell you this, CNN IS a liberal channel. As well as all the other major networks here. Throw in a lot of major newspapers.

In the article that RSmith posted in the Rumsfeld slip of the tongue post, one of the soldiers asked why only the bad news gets reported. That is true! The press only shows the bad things that happen in Iraq. There are lots of other things going on. (Actually, FOX News does do a segment on the good news from Iraq everyday.)

As for your views on Iraq, I agree with you 100%. We must take the brunt of the responsibility. There was a bit of a stink a few months ago because we would not let countries who opposed the war have rebuilding contracts inside Iraq. I agree with that! The coalition did the work, the coalition should get the bids! However, if we are going to do so, the coalition should pay the bills.

Maybe some members from the UK can answer this.. All this talk has got me curious. How respected is SkyNews?
A monkey's ass always talks crap.
 
StowAway
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RE: B.U.S.H. Wants Another 80 Billion For Iraq

Tue Dec 28, 2004 5:23 am

So Bush giving them the middle finger isnt exactly smart.

AA777, I must have missed that! Or were you exaggerating? Nah, I probably missed it.

You say Bush's plan is crap. Why? What points don't you like about it? I am sure you would have read up on it before flaming about it!
A monkey's ass always talks crap.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: B.U.S.H. Wants Another 80 Billion For Iraq

Tue Dec 28, 2004 5:41 am

Some people spend their entire lives living month to month, making little or no savings.

...very sad [ Yeah sure]

Now, refresh me as to why I'm supposed to care to the point of supporting legislative action which would railroad my (and millions of others') fiscal security for their sake?
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
Arniepie
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RE: B.U.S.H. Wants Another 80 Billion For Iraq

Tue Dec 28, 2004 5:46 am

Maybe some members from the UK can answer this.. All this talk has got me curious. How respected is SkyNews?

As you know I'm not from the UK but Sky is somewhere between NBC an FOX in my opinion.
When Blair decided to be the leading man in the Labour party and run the elections, the outcome was more or less determined when Murdoc decided to support Blair, normally he is a conservative but the new kind of "Blair socialism" appealed to him so much that he decided to support labour for a change.
I wonder which side he will pick in the next election?

PS
Due to the system we live in (EU ,US and the rest of the capitalist world) the media tends to be more to the right than to the left.
All privatized TV station ,newspapers and so on have to make a living (mostly from advertising) and advertisers (entrepreneurs) tend to be right (conservative) winged.

In my country there is only 1 socialist newspaper left that can sustain itself and in the surrounding country's you can see the same trend in the media.
Good or bad, I don't know but things are the way they are.
[edit post]
 
Continental
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RE: B.U.S.H. Wants Another 80 Billion For Iraq

Tue Dec 28, 2004 6:04 am

"As noted in a previous post, that to withold any requested funds, and force the withdrawl of our troops would be a 'win for the terrorists'."

So you think if we stay there, eventually they'll all disappear and the problem will be gone!? No, there's no button labeled "Terrorism Off." If we keep doing what we're doing now, well then hell, we'll be there forever.
 
AAplatnumflier
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RE: B.U.S.H. Wants Another 80 Billion For Iraq

Tue Dec 28, 2004 6:07 am

Ya well when I become an adult I dont want to pay taxes. Bush and I are alike...we both want unrealistic things.
 
AA777
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RE: B.U.S.H. Wants Another 80 Billion For Iraq

Tue Dec 28, 2004 6:26 am

Now, refresh me as to why I'm supposed to care to the point of supporting legislative action which would railroad my (and millions of others') fiscal security for their sake?

Because most people arent that selfish that they would feel impinged on if they had a little less money, so that the truly needy had more. I see that you are a generous person, truly you must be... but if you feel the need to hoarde every penny you can get your greedy hands on, be my guest. Your man is in office now. But lest we forget.... you'll be counting your dollars all alone.


AA777, I must have missed that! Or were you exaggerating? Nah, I probably missed it.

You say Bush's plan is crap. Why? What points don't you like about it? I am sure you would have read up on it before flaming about it!


I was exaggerating, and Concordeboy uses that as an analogy of what Bush's foreign policy is...

I dont like Bush's plan because it lacks good reason, it lacks EVERYTHING that it needs to be supported. The war in Iraq; started out as "Iraq is a theat to the U.S. Saddam has WMD." Both of those accusations turned out to be false. Im sorry, but I dont recall many nations invading and killing the people of another nation in order to "free" them. Notice now that Iraq's situation is basically worse than it was before the war. At least then people could go to the supermarket without worrying that they will be killed by a random bomb. Also notice that the war is not getting better. More soldiers, civilians dying each day....

This war makes the U.S. enemies, NOT friends, around the world. Our relations with Europe are not good (besides the UK). It hurts our relations with Arab nations, the U.S. cannot pick and choose who it will deal with, and decide that if they dont like your government they will replace it. The world does not work that way. We are not that powerful. Who is next? Iran looks like a likely target. Our troops are stretched thin as it is. Why does the U.S. feel as if it is the World's Police Officer? IT IS NOT OUR PLACE to DICTATE who does what, who leads which nation, and how those nations are led. We do not own the world.

Bush claims that he is fixing the region, yet he is making it more and more unstable. Honestly, it sickens me... it is not The U.S.'s place to play russian roulette with our sons and daughters, to send them to war for no good reason. Saddam was not a theat to us. We were lied to. Period. We were not misinformed. It was a LIE. I do not support liars.



-AA777
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: B.U.S.H. Wants Another 80 Billion For Iraq

Tue Dec 28, 2004 6:55 am

Because most people arent that selfish that they would feel impinged on if they had a little less money, so that the truly needy had more.

...and you honestly believe that?!  Nuts

In the event that you do, and for the sake of my droll amusement, do explain then why it hasn't happened long ago?




but if you feel the need to hoarde every penny you can get your greedy hands on, be my guest

Ever heard about assumption being the great progenitor of all f^ckups?

...apparently not. But anywho, I don't support any such legislation, because I dont want the government distributing what amount of money I'd want to go to those less fortunate. If you do, fine. I'd rather support my own causes in my own way.



I dont recall many nations invading and killing the people of another nation in order to "free" them

...all that means is you need a lesson in world history.  Laugh out loud



It hurts our relations with Arab nations

...exactly what Arab nations did we actually have relations with, which are now directly affected by the ongoing insurgency?



the U.S. cannot pick and choose who it will deal with

...says whom?



Why does the U.S. feel as if it is the World's Police Officer?

1) because it's essentially expected of us nowadays and 2) because if not us, whom else would: Canada? France?



We were lied to. Period. We were not misinformed. It was a LIE.

That Clinton and Putin were all in on.... agreed?
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
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clickhappy
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RE: B.U.S.H. Wants Another 80 Billion For Iraq

Tue Dec 28, 2004 6:56 am

Concordeboi, you might make some decent points in the Civ Av forum, although your continued misuse of the word anecdotal shows your true depth, you are out of your league in this topic.

To all those who would rather spend money bombing another country, rather than fixing your own, grow up. The war in Iraq has created more debt, and more enemies, both which will last several lifetimes.

Iraq is nothing but another Iran. We prop up a pro-Western government, who will rule through the use of excessive force and brutal tactics, only to be eventually thrown out on the street by the masses, and in the process creating another hardline government that has a reason to hate the U.S.
 
AA777
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RE: B.U.S.H. Wants Another 80 Billion For Iraq

Tue Dec 28, 2004 9:34 am

Concordeboi, you might make some decent points in the Civ Av forum, although your continued misuse of the word anecdotal shows your true depth, you are out of your league in this topic.

AMEN.

Iraq is nothing but another Iran. We prop up a pro-Western government, who will rule through the use of excessive force and brutal tactics, only to be eventually thrown out on the street by the masses, and in the process creating another hardline government that has a reason to hate the U.S.

THANK YOU. I could'nt have said it better myself!


Concordeboy. This is your problem...along with the entire Republican party's problem: You think every single thing should be fixed in the short term. Whatever is good for us NOW is our policy. Nevermind our children, our futures. As long as we make top dollar TODAY. SOON. Then everythign will be fine. Well. We've ousted Saddam. Woopdeedoo. Where did that land us? BILLIONS POORER, the LARGEST DEBTOR IN THE WORLD. Dollar falling....and falling.... and falling. And nobody is doing anything about it. Instead, we are pouring money into Iraq, when we shouldnt have wasted our time, our troops, or their casualties. TELL ME, Concordeboy, TELL ME, what will this war get us in the end? Your admin. seems adamant on maintaining that the war wasnt about oil. So our gas prices are gonna remain the same. What are we going to get? A "democratic" Iraq? BullS**t and you know it. We're going to get zilch from this. Only, a few years down the road, it will probably be a radical-muslim government, run by clerics. What, are we gonna invade them again?

Do you wonder why we are hated througout the world? Probably because we do stupid crap like invading Iraq, things which serve our own interests (I'd like to know how this will help us though...) Then, when people get fed up of having a puppet government, they overthrow them. We CREATE OUR OWN ENEMIES. FROM IRAN TO OBL. It is our own bloody fault that we have all these problems in the first place.
You wanna tell me to study World history? I dont know what the teach you in the deep south, but it sure as hell what they teach us north of the mason dixon line.... You say we've invaded nations to free people? Who? The Jews in concentrations camps? Doubtful, I'd say it was because of pearl harbor.... not to mention generally helping out our then-allies Britain and France......they liberated the concentration camps at the end. Sorry to burst your bubble C-boy.

It hurts our relations with Arab nations

...exactly what Arab nations did we actually have relations with, which are now directly affected by the ongoing insurgency?


ah, ah, ah, there you go again putting words into my mouth. I was talking about the war in general, not about "the insurgency" The start of the war absolutley hurt relations with all nations except Kuwait. Nobody wanted it, it was unwarranted, and unwanted. Relations were strained because we have bush saying things that make even the most ill-mannered and uneducated people laugh... "The Axis of Evil..." lol... you respect him? The political relations between the US and the Arabs is not good.... invading Iraq serves only to make it worse by increasing the tension. If civil war breaks out--and it just might-- you have widespread destabilization.


Why does the U.S. feel as if it is the World's Police Officer?

1) because it's essentially expected of us nowadays and 2) because if not us, whom else would: Canada? France?


It is expected of us when it is NEEDED. Buddy, if you dont remember, the majority of the UN was against us invading Iraq.... and then we arrogantly go and announce our "coalition of the willing".... HAHA.... what coalition? The Marshall islands? The Seychelles? Mauritius? Look at our coalalition now....... dwindling day by day...

There is no need to offensively attack other nations without a good reason. We didnt have one. Period. There is no need for a world police officer. We have one, its called the UN. If something is PRESSING, and URGENT, they will do something about it. AHEM, Gulf War I .... You seem to think we are above the UN. That is a crock of crap. What makes us better? Nothing. They are not beneath us. Honestly, have you grown up in and stayed in the the US your entire life? Have you even been outside the US to get a taste of what other people think, to see how they live? You have some crazy isolationist view of what hte world should be, and that we should control everything. GET OUT OF YOUR DREAMWORLD. It will never happen. SO, until you learn something about world events, and diplomacy, I advise that you keep your posts aimed at promoting the T7 and bashing the A340, as you tend to do.

Good day.

-AA777
 
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sebolino
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RE: B.U.S.H. Wants Another 80 Billion For Iraq

Tue Dec 28, 2004 6:35 pm

Considering what one could do for homeless and poor people in the US, not to speak about schools or administration, universities, hospitals ..., i find this a real scandal and really sickening.
You fellow Americans have a sad president.

All this money just to screw up a country and secure a presence where the oil will be in the next 50 years ...


Addition:

For those who don't agree with me, spare me your "Iraq is now free" arguments. It's nearly free to kill a dictator and his friends. It costs dozens of billions to be present with a big army.
By the way, Iraq is far from free, it's ruled by terrorists now.

"The game is over"
Georges W. Bush , not so far ago.

"It's not a game, it's not over"
J.P. Raffarin, French PM, just after.


Who was right ?

[Edited 2004-12-28 10:39:52]
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: B.U.S.H. Wants Another 80 Billion For Iraq

Tue Dec 28, 2004 7:50 pm

your continued misuse of the word anecdotal

I challenge you to accurately display any instance where I've misued the word  Insane




TELL ME, what will this war get us in the end?

...you know as well as I that you, me, Bush, Kerry, Ms Cleo, etc have absolutely no way whatsoever of accurately predicting this.




Only, a few years down the road, it will probably be a radical-muslim government, run by clerics.

Were the Rsmiths of the world to have their way-- you certainly wouldn't have to wait that long for said result  Yeah sure





Do you wonder why we are hated througout the world?

Not in the least



It is our own bloody fault that we have all these problems in the first place.

Always America's/The West's fault huh....  Yeah sure




You say we've invaded nations to free people?

Did I now... hmm, that's interesting.
Refresh me, exactly where did I say that?




I was talking about the war in general, not about "the insurgency"

Fair enough.

Scratch ongoing insurgency, insert "Iraqi Invasion"... now address the question.




you respect him?

Very little... never been coy to admit that



It is expected of us when it is NEEDED

Which does nothing to address the point I raised...





We didn't have one. Period.

Surprisingly enough... I'll agree with you. Thing is, that conclusion can only clearly be reached via retrospect at this point.

Given the information both this and the prior administration possessed pre-war, such a conclusion could not be drawn with certainty.





There is no need for a world police officer. We have one, its called the UN

Are you kidding me with this?!  Nuts

The UN has proven itself wholly inept in any such given situation (or anything other than being a larger-scale Red Cross, which does have its merits) time and time again. Where was the UN and what good did it strategically accomplish in Somalia? ...Rwanda? ...The Balkans? ...current day Sudan? ...list goes on and on.





You seem to think we are above the UN.

Not really, I'd just say we're wasting our time with a strategically useless and corrupt organization.




Honestly, have you grown up in and stayed in the the US your entire life? Have you even been outside the US to get a taste of what other people think, to see how they live?

Spare me the baited patronization... I'll go tit for tat with any westerner on this site for nations-visited any day of the week  Insane




You have some crazy isolationist view of what hte world should be, and that we should control everything.

Droll that you presume to tell me how I view America's place in the world  Nuts

[Edited 2004-12-28 11:52:29]
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
yukimizake
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RE: B.U.S.H. Wants Another 80 Billion For Iraq

Tue Dec 28, 2004 10:36 pm

Do you wonder why we are hated througout the world?

Not in the least

What an ignorant thing to say. Unfortunately Bush and his cronies share your level of ignorance on this matter. But you really should care, have you already forgotten 9/11?

 
airplay
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RE: B.U.S.H. Wants Another 80 Billion For Iraq

Tue Dec 28, 2004 11:49 pm

Leaving Iraq now would send a message saying that the US government are quitters.

Nope. Leaving Iraq now would satisfy the status-quo. The USA has a history of inserting itself in international debacles and exiting in shame.

My hope is that they leave sooner rather than later to limit the damage done.
 
StowAway
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RE: B.U.S.H. Wants Another 80 Billion For Iraq

Wed Dec 29, 2004 2:07 am

380 tons of material found - 1 pound of it brought down a 747..... Think that is mass destruction material?

Several different intelligence agencies told us that Iraq had WMD. (Russia, CIA, Turkey, etc.) Throw Bill Clinton (the liberal's poster child) into that ring, too. You make the call as president! Your administration just got dumped on because you didn't prevent 9/11. Several different neutral parties are telling you that there are WMD's over there. Saddam refuses to let UN inspectors in. If you don't prevent this, and something bad does happen, (i.e. 9/11), your name is Mud. If you go in, and Saddam has hid all the weapons, then you still unseat a brutal dictator, and free the people of Iraq. Saddam was no friend to this world. He won't be missed.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,124320,00.html

You think Iraq is worse off now? Tell that to the Kurds.
A monkey's ass always talks crap.
 
OYRJA
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RE: B.U.S.H. Wants Another 80 Billion For Iraq

Wed Dec 29, 2004 2:12 am

You think Iraq is worse off now? Tell that to the Kurds.

You guys sound like saints because you are the Kurds heroes now. But why in the heck didn't they do anything right after the Kurdish people were gassed? WHy did they have to wait for such a long time??
 
Falcon84
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RE: B.U.S.H. Wants Another 80 Billion For Iraq

Wed Dec 29, 2004 2:13 am

You think Iraq is worse off now?

Oh, I don't know: daily terrorist attacks; being occupied by a foreign power; possibly on the verge of civil war; water and electricity not running in all places.

You tell me? If you REALLY think they're better off, I think a majority of Iraqi's might beg to differ with you.

And again, typical conservative drivel, telling us who was saying Iraq had WMD. But the buck stops with Bush-he made the decision to go to war on information that many felt was dubious. It's HIS responsibiilty, no one elses.

But I know, making Bush responsible for anything is against the GOP by-laws.  Big grin
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
jamesag96
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RE: B.U.S.H. Wants Another 80 Billion For Iraq

Wed Dec 29, 2004 2:46 am

"And again, typical conservative drivel, telling us who was saying Iraq had WMD. But the buck stops with Bush-he made the decision to go to war on information that many felt was dubious. It's HIS responsibiilty, no one elses."

You are right here. But the flipside is if he had the same information from all the same groups and chose to do nothing about it...and the unthinkable happened.

I respect the man for making a tough decision and then sticking with it regardless of what daily polls may say. We elected him to lead the country, not change his course with the alternating currents of public opinion.

But I am sure you would have done better given the circumstances, afterall you are Alpha 1.

You really shouldn't look at history with contemporary glasses.

Almost forgot:
"My grandmother, for instance, depends on her social security check-- she worked hard her entire life, but never made alot of money. She didnt invest, she is from small-town Oklahoma."

While I feel for your grandmother, maybe she should have invested, or moved from small-town Oklahoma. Maybe you and your family should concentrate on how to help your Grandmother and not expect assistance from an already overstressed entitlement system. Just thinking outside the box.
Why Kate, You're not wearing a bustle. How lewd.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: B.U.S.H. Wants Another 80 Billion For Iraq

Wed Dec 29, 2004 2:47 am

What an ignorant thing to say.

Read the original question one more time moron... he didn't ask me if I care, he asked me if I wonder-- which I do not.  Insane



But why in the heck didn't they do anything right after the Kurdish people were gassed? WHy did they have to wait for such a long time??

...er, because Clinton was a pacifist?



Oh, I don't know

we're aware  Big grin



daily terrorist attacks

....versus a triple decade reign of terror




being occupied by a foreign power

...versus a dictator with unchecked absolute power




possibly on the verge of civil war

...which they'd always been, particularly should Saddam had ever passed




water and electricity not running in all places

...which it wasnt before USA involvement, and probably never will be



typical conservative drivel, telling us who was saying Iraq had WMD.

it's also the unadulterable truth, amusing how you choose to label it though.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
AA777
Posts: 2361
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RE: B.U.S.H. Wants Another 80 Billion For Iraq

Wed Dec 29, 2004 3:04 am

While I feel for your grandmother, maybe she should have invested, or moved from small-town Oklahoma. Maybe you and your family should concentrate on how to help your Grandmother and not expect assistance from an already overstressed entitlement system. Just thinking outside the box.

Listen buddy, she is 83 years old. You expected her to invest? Even when she was younger, she was in no situation to invest. You are thinking outside the box, yet it doesnt matter how far you get from the box, she was stuck in the box. Day to day bills take precedence over investing in the NYSE. And, for your information, our family provides thousands of dollars of health care for her, she has an autoimmune disease, polymyositis. So do not say that we need to concentrate on helping her.....b/c we certainly have, and we will continue to. But then again, we have the means to do so, whereas she does not.

ANYWAYS, not that I need to divulge any of our finances to you. The point is, there are millions of elderly who dont even KNOW what the stock market is, let alone how to invest in it, and invest smartly. People DO depend on the government, PERIOD. If this war was not draining our economy, and our government funding, we would have more money for healthcare, for welfare, for government-funded programs. I dont think that young people who can work should abuse these systems, which they do. HOWEVER, for the elderly and infirm, who NEED this money, it is absolutley imperative that healthcare and social security be reformed so they can LIVE day to day. That is what is being deprived of them. Proper health care and social security benefits.

-AA777
 
AA777
Posts: 2361
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RE: B.U.S.H. Wants Another 80 Billion For Iraq

Wed Dec 29, 2004 3:18 am


typical conservative drivel, telling us who was saying Iraq had WMD.

it's also the unadulterable truth, amusing how you choose to label it though.


Your response to that is complete crap and you know it. There was / never will be WMD in Iraq unless the US puts it there. Im not talking about planting it and then pointing fingers, I am talking about giving it to their "freely chosen" government. Anyhow, they didnt find WMD in Iraq, and theyve scoured the place top to bottom. I have a feeling Saddam would have hidden himself with more care than WMD...... and they found saddam.

You are too stubborn to even admit what has been proven??? The evidence is everywhere. Do you hear Bush and his cronies talking about WMD anymore? Is Colin Powell visiting the UN? lol, spewing their crap and lies about WMD... did we not hear the reports from the CIA that people were pressured to come up with reports that supported the so-called existence of WMD? Read Time magazine, there was a report about it (sometime before / after the war started)....

Now all we hear is "freedom freedom freedom" .... which is a whole other debate anyhow.... We hear Dubya going on and on about the frankly chaotic situation in Iraq.... which he chooses now to nonchalantly ignore, or try to "comfort" the American public by making it seem like, "eh, it aint so bad y'all"....... Sorry, his ideas of southern justice just dont cut it in the real world.

-AA777
 
jamesag96
Posts: 2007
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2001 2:59 am

RE: B.U.S.H. Wants Another 80 Billion For Iraq

Wed Dec 29, 2004 3:22 am

I am glad for your grandmother that she has a family that helps pay for her bills...maybe she could have saved rather than invested? People do that too you know.

"People DO depend on the government, PERIOD."
Well they shouldn't.

"If this war was not draining our economy, and our government funding, we would have more money for healthcare, for welfare, for government-funded programs."
The war is not draining our econonomy, and one could argue that the programs you mention are overfunded as is.

"I dont think that young people who can work should abuse these systems, which they do."
Yes they do, which is why the programs are overfunded...so how do we fix THAT?

You don't fix this problem by throwing more money in it, you truly reform it by setting standards that weed out the entitlement abuser douchebags that make things for your grandmother as a Social Security recipient, and us as tax payers.

"HOWEVER, for the elderly and infirm, who NEED this money, it is absolutley imperative that healthcare and social security be reformed so they can LIVE day to day."
Couldn't agree with you more.

"That is what is being deprived of them. Proper health care and social security benefits."
Not by Bush or this admin.

Look, it is obvious to me that your heart is in the right place, we just disagree on the financials and who is ultimately responsible for our conditions.


Why Kate, You're not wearing a bustle. How lewd.
 
jamesag96
Posts: 2007
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2001 2:59 am

RE: B.U.S.H. Wants Another 80 Billion For Iraq

Wed Dec 29, 2004 3:36 am

Boy you are fired up today aren't you?

"Your response to that is complete crap and you know it."
Actually he couldn't be more correct.

"There was / never will be WMD in Iraq unless the US puts it there."
Um...yeah there was, which is why we went in because there wasn't sufficient evidence that he had destroyed what had been documented by the UN to exist.

"Anyhow, they didnt find WMD in Iraq, and theyve scoured the place top to bottom."
They haven't found stockpiles, they have found evidence of materials and programs prohibited under the UN resolutions.

"lol, spewing their crap and lies about WMD... "
So, intel agencies from around the world didn't report their existence as well?

".... which he chooses now to nonchalantly ignore..."
What?

"...or try to "comfort" the American public by making it seem like, "eh, it aint so bad y'all"

I hate to say this because someone will most assuredly twist this...each and every life is precious, and the loss of even one life is deplorable...but to compare-as I have seen on here and else where before-the situation in Iraq to Vietnam or WWII is not only disrespectful to those who have fallen, but utter ignorance. 1000 men and women have died, which is a drop in the bucket to some DAYS of battle in wars past.

It doesn't make it any easier, or more pallatable, and it is just as disgusting each time another person dies at the hand of warring on either side...but keep that number in perspective when you hear the death toll from previous wars, or genocidal killings in Rwanda, or current situation in The Sudan, or even natural disasters as we have seen this week.

""....... Sorry, his ideas of southern justice just dont cut it in the real world."
Please do tell...what kind of justice does?






[Edited 2004-12-28 19:39:06]
Why Kate, You're not wearing a bustle. How lewd.
 
yukimizake
Posts: 507
Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2004 10:20 am

RE: B.U.S.H. Wants Another 80 Billion For Iraq

Wed Dec 29, 2004 6:11 am

"What an ignorant thing to say."

"Read the original question one more time moron... he didn't ask me if I care, he asked me if I wonder-- which I do not."

People hate your country, people attack your country killing thousands and you don't wonder why? Now that is moronic.
 
jamesag96
Posts: 2007
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RE: B.U.S.H. Wants Another 80 Billion For Iraq

Wed Dec 29, 2004 6:24 am

Maybe he doesn't wonder because he already knows why.

Trust me, more people love this country than hate it.
Why Kate, You're not wearing a bustle. How lewd.
 
StowAway
Posts: 619
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RE: B.U.S.H. Wants Another 80 Billion For Iraq

Wed Dec 29, 2004 6:34 am

Yukimizake, Yeah, well, people aren't too fond of your country, either. Just sit back and watch other people keep you safe.

AA777, no WMD's? Does the name Chemical Ali mean anything to you? It will when he faces trial. You are in for a suprise.
A monkey's ass always talks crap.
 
User avatar
clickhappy
Topic Author
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RE: B.U.S.H. Wants Another 80 Billion For Iraq

Wed Dec 29, 2004 6:47 am

Besides the oil, here is the reason we invaded Iraq  Big grin



Couldn't stand to see his daddy get insulted.

I love how some of you continue to hang on to lies and half truths, even after they have been debunked through a variety of different, independent sources.
 
ConcordeBoy
Posts: 16852
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 8:04 am

RE: B.U.S.H. Wants Another 80 Billion For Iraq

Wed Dec 29, 2004 6:50 am

There was / never will be WMD in Iraq unless the US puts it there

you do realize said opening statement is not only blatant ignorance of a proven and internationally/officially documented fact.... but also completely invalidates what little credibility you had on the issue  Big grin




People hate your country, people attack your country killing thousands and you don't wonder why? Now that is moronic.

LOL, you unmitigated fool: what I've been trying to drill into your thick skull is that I'm well aware why they and those who support them claim to hate the USA-- hence no need to wonder about it.

There, got it that time... or must it be applied with a sledgehammer?  Yeah sure
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
jamesag96
Posts: 2007
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2001 2:59 am

RE: B.U.S.H. Wants Another 80 Billion For Iraq

Wed Dec 29, 2004 6:53 am

You have got to be kidding me.

"...even after they have been debunked through a variety of different, independent sources."

After the fact, with the benefit 20-20 hindsight.
Why Kate, You're not wearing a bustle. How lewd.
 
StowAway
Posts: 619
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RE: B.U.S.H. Wants Another 80 Billion For Iraq

Wed Dec 29, 2004 6:56 am

You can post pictures all you want Clickhappy. I could post the picture of the man from a small town in Iraq hitting Saddam's picture with a shoe. Pictures don't substitute for facts.
A monkey's ass always talks crap.
 
yukimizake
Posts: 507
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RE: B.U.S.H. Wants Another 80 Billion For Iraq

Wed Dec 29, 2004 7:22 am

"Yeah, well, people aren't too fond of your country, either."
Really, I wasn't aware of that, its not as if we've gone around invading any countries recently.

"I'm well aware why they and those who support them claim to hate the USA".
I don't think your aware, if you were you then would realize that the unilateral invasion of Iraq and subsequent farcical attempt to set up a puppet regime has considerably added to the long list of your enemies. Answer this one question, what is the underlying reason Bin Laden launched the attacks on New York and Washington? The response of your government just adds fuel to the fire.
 
ConcordeBoy
Posts: 16852
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RE: B.U.S.H. Wants Another 80 Billion For Iraq

Wed Dec 29, 2004 7:28 am

I wasn't aware of that

hear that silence? ...yeah, it's the sound of shock  Insane



its not as if we've gone around invading any countries recently.

...nor as if you could  Laugh out loud



I don't think

Yes, I've noticed



has considerably added to the long list of your enemies.

Be immeasurably droll to see who's been added that wasnt already there  Yeah sure



what is the underlying reason Bin Laden launched the attacks on New York and Washington?

...would cher, but I'd rather not be banned for another week Big grin
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
AA777
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RE: B.U.S.H. Wants Another 80 Billion For Iraq

Wed Dec 29, 2004 7:28 am

There was / never will be WMD in Iraq unless the US puts it there

you do realize said opening statement is not only blatant ignorance of a proven and internationally/officially documented fact.... but also completely invalidates what little credibility you had on the issue


Ooh well arent you mr. weapons inspector now. Buddy, I meant there was no WMD after they started implementing inspections in Iraq after Desert Storm. They havent found anything that can say, YES, there is WMD, or that there was. You right-wing people are hanging onto old news reports!!

AA777, no WMD's? Does the name Chemical Ali mean anything to you? It will when he faces trial. You are in for a suprise.

I actually am not in for a surprise. Chemical Ali is responsible for chemical weapons that were produced in the late 80's and used in the late 80s. After Iraq was defeated in Desert Storm weapons inspectors were introduced/ inplemented and production ceased. Chemical Ali's era is over.

-AA777
 
jamesag96
Posts: 2007
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2001 2:59 am

RE: B.U.S.H. Wants Another 80 Billion For Iraq

Wed Dec 29, 2004 7:40 am

AA777 if the UN was so sure of its effectiveness they why pass resolutions at all?

"YES, there is WMD, or that there was. You right-wing people are hanging onto old news reports!!"

And tell me why again they have found materials and programs that were prohibited under UN resolutions?
Why Kate, You're not wearing a bustle. How lewd.
 
yukimizake
Posts: 507
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RE: B.U.S.H. Wants Another 80 Billion For Iraq

Wed Dec 29, 2004 7:53 am

"what is the underlying reason Bin Laden launched the attacks on New York and Washington?"

"...would cher, but I'd rather not be banned for another week"


That's a BS excuse, you really can't answer this question? Either you really are unaware of the issues or your only come here to get your kicks though attempts at sarcasm and name calling.
 
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clickhappy
Topic Author
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RE: B.U.S.H. Wants Another 80 Billion For Iraq

Wed Dec 29, 2004 9:53 am

If WMD's were/are the reason, why not reign in all these other rogue nations that not only DO have them they have threatened to use them? Oh thats right, they don't have any oil, so we can't be bothered with it.

Oh it wasn't about WMD's, thats right! It was about liberating those poor Iraqi people who were being ruled by a dictator! I mean, it isn't like the U.S. to put up with a dictator. Except Pinochet. Oh yeah and Mohammed Reza Shah Pahlavi. Oh yeah, add Idi Amin to this list, too. Oh yeah, Saddam was on this list once, funny thing that.


Maybe Bush's behavior is due to illness?
 
StowAway
Posts: 619
Joined: Fri Dec 17, 2004 10:48 am

RE: B.U.S.H. Wants Another 80 Billion For Iraq

Wed Dec 29, 2004 10:01 am

Get me a more solid source on that illness. Until then, it will have to go in the bull butter catagory. You seem to visit the latter a lot.  Big grin
A monkey's ass always talks crap.
 
Confuscius
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RE: B.U.S.H. Wants Another 80 Billion For Iraq

Wed Dec 29, 2004 10:31 am

A billion here, a billion there, pretty soon you're talking about real money.
Ain't I a stinker?
 
StarAC17
Posts: 4017
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RE: B.U.S.H. Wants Another 80 Billion For Iraq

Wed Dec 29, 2004 10:57 am

Bush will probably get the money so can he go in with 70-75 billion and give 5-10 billion to the 12 countries that were affected by the tsunami's.
Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
 
AA777
Posts: 2361
Joined: Thu May 20, 1999 7:07 am

RE: B.U.S.H. Wants Another 80 Billion For Iraq

Wed Dec 29, 2004 11:06 am

To add to what clickhappy wrote, what about N. Korea? They have came out and said, "We are making nukes!" And what does the U.S. do about it? Nothing. Have we heard one peep from the Whitehouse about N. Korea's nukes? Nope. And they COULD be a real threat. Iraq on the other hand, never was. Iraq did have something that our favorite Texan Conquistador wanted: Oil. That is just great. Ignore those threats that actually mean something to the United States, as well as other large nations (China, Japan....etc etc), and pursue non-threatening nations because they have something that we want under their feet. Dubya's ratings are at an all-time low for a reason my friends. Those of you who voted for Bush, i have 5 words for you: You made the wrong choice!


You reap what you sow, my friends.

-AA777
 
BA
Posts: 10516
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RE: B.U.S.H. Wants Another 80 Billion For Iraq

Wed Dec 29, 2004 11:19 am

I was reading an article about how more of the young generation in the US are starting to acknowledge that America's aggressive and imperialist foreign policy is the primary driving force for anti-Americanism and the growth of global terrorism that is primarily aimed at the US, US Allies, and US interests.

Maybe there is hope...

StowAway,

Yukimizake, Yeah, well, people aren't too fond of your country, either. Just sit back and watch other people keep you safe.

When was the last time you saw people in the Middle East burning the Canadian flag and chanting "Death to Canada"?
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
ConcordeBoy
Posts: 16852
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RE: B.U.S.H. Wants Another 80 Billion For Iraq

Wed Dec 29, 2004 11:28 am

When was the last time you saw people in the Middle East burning the Canadian flag and chanting "Death to Canada"?

....when's the last time Canada's led any form of international course of action/strategy/legislation?
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
jamesag96
Posts: 2007
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2001 2:59 am

RE: B.U.S.H. Wants Another 80 Billion For Iraq

Wed Dec 29, 2004 11:30 am

"Maybe there is hope..."

You are right...hopefully Islamic radicals will stop chopping off heads, blowing themselves up on a bus full of civilians, hijacking aircraft or bringing them down with bombs, cease blowing up embassies, taking hostages in general and really just stop the behaviour that has been going for almost 50 years.

Hopefully in our lifetime BA we will see this happen.




Why Kate, You're not wearing a bustle. How lewd.
 
StowAway
Posts: 619
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RE: B.U.S.H. Wants Another 80 Billion For Iraq

Wed Dec 29, 2004 11:31 am

A monkey's ass always talks crap.
 
User avatar
clickhappy
Topic Author
Posts: 9175
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RE: B.U.S.H. Wants Another 80 Billion For Iraq

Wed Dec 29, 2004 11:47 am

I like you StowAway  Smile You have spirit.

However, I wont be eating crow for dinner. I was thinking more about a BMT from Subway.

Should we compare North Korea and Iraq? Sure. See, the US has told northern asian countries that North Korea is basically their problem. So, South Korea, Japan, China, and others have had talks on how best to deal with the North Korean threat. Seems resonable, right? I mean here we have things like cooperation between neighboring countries, and actual talks that have revolved around solving North Korea's problems while reducing and/or eliminating the threat that they pose.

Now, what if we would have done that in Iraq?

The differences between Iraq and North Korea? 1) North Korea isn't worth anything to Bush's cronnies, and 2) North Korea has missiles that can actually reach the U.S.

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