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rjpieces
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So Nice To See Arabs Voting--Good Luck George Bush

Sun Jan 30, 2005 4:16 pm

It's 2AM on the East Coast and CNN has a live feed of CNN International. It is incredibly nice to see Arabs voting in free elections for the second time, the first time being the Palestinian elections a few weeks ago.

This brings me hope that perhaps many more Arabs will be able to vote in free elections soon. I wish President Bush the best of luck as he sets out on this monumental task. May God watch over him in his endeavor.
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solnabo
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RE: So Nice To See Arabs Voting--Good Luck George Bush

Sun Jan 30, 2005 7:32 pm


Please, you think its gonna be hunky dory in Iraq after the election??

There s gonna be a civil war between sunni and shiia muslims, but I guess thats not a problem for the US forces......

Jeeehhhhh.......almighty!!!

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gkirk
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RE: So Nice To See Arabs Voting--Good Luck George Bush

Sun Jan 30, 2005 7:42 pm

It was so much better under Saddam Hussein. They got threatened with death unless they voted for Saddamn in previous elections. Why oh why did the US invade Iraq when they didnt have to. All the Iraqi's had to do was vote for Saddamn and they would have been alright. It was a free and fair country back then.
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solnabo
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RE: So Nice To See Arabs Voting--Good Luck George Bush

Sun Jan 30, 2005 7:50 pm


Have to diss you there, Cpt Kirk!

If you look longer than youre nose you might find things you dont wanna know/see.
Why not watching Mr. Rummy s american "Al-Jazeera channel"

Time will tell!

Micke  Insane
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gkirk
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RE: So Nice To See Arabs Voting--Good Luck George Bush

Sun Jan 30, 2005 7:55 pm

Well, of course it's not going to be hunky dory, everyone knows that. But these elections are, although pehaps poorly timed, a good thing for the Iraqis.
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qr332
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RE: So Nice To See Arabs Voting--Good Luck George Bush

Sun Jan 30, 2005 8:02 pm

Good luck George Bush? WTF? I didn't know he was running for elections in Iraq  Yeah sure.

Yep, the most fair, safe and balanced elections EVER. No two parties agree with each other, most of the voters are risking their lives by just going to vote, and it will probably cause Iraqi to slide into civil war. Yipee!
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RE: So Nice To See Arabs Voting--Good Luck George Bush

Sun Jan 30, 2005 8:36 pm

Good luck George Bush? WTF? I didn't know he was running for elections in Iraq

What he means by it is that if the election against all odds turn out to be a success, and Iraq get back on the right track, people might start to forget what kind of mess George Bush got Iraq into in the first place.

And George could do with some good news...

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HOMER71
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RE: So Nice To See Arabs Voting--Good Luck George Bush

Sun Jan 30, 2005 8:50 pm

Even more appropriate, Good Luck to the people of Iraq (except the insurgents, you guys suck)
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Udo
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RE: So Nice To See Arabs Voting--Good Luck George

Sun Jan 30, 2005 9:12 pm

It is incredibly nice to see Arabs voting in free elections for the second time, the first time being the Palestinian elections a few weeks ago.

Free elections on the paper maybe, but in reality voters are threatened by death or blown up while waiting in row...and those who survive giving their vote are clearly marked with a blue finger, being a clear target for terrorists.

At the end, Allawi wins anyways. So much for "free" elections. I doubt the majority of Iraqis is happy about that. For them it's more important to survive in between permanent terrorists' actions and American counterstrikes.


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Udo
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gkirk
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RE: So Nice To See Arabs Voting--Good Luck George Bush

Sun Jan 30, 2005 9:35 pm

Udo, they were threatened with death during Saddams reign anyway, so you can't blame it on the Americans/Brits
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Udo
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RE: So Nice To See Arabs Voting--Good Luck George Bush

Sun Jan 30, 2005 9:48 pm

Udo, they were threatened with death during Saddams reign anyway, so you can't blame it on the Americans/Brits

I do not blame Americans and Brits directly - but they haven't been able yet to secure stability in Iraq. And under the current circumstances it's just ridiculous to start elections.
Don't get me wrong - Hussein's regime was evil and killed thousands. But under Hussein, people had a good chance to survive when they shut up and tried to stay out of politics. Right now, there's nothing they can do against the daily threat - they can be blown up at any place, at any time. Well, I wouldn't say life was "safer" - but some more predictable.
It's great Saddam is gone, but what I oppose is the way the whole chaos was created, and the uncountable lifes which were lost in not even two years. And there's no end in sight, I fear.


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Udo
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5T6
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RE: So Nice To See Arabs Voting--Good Luck George Bush

Sun Jan 30, 2005 10:14 pm

Free elections on the paper maybe, but in reality voters are threatened by death or blown up while waiting in row

Yes, my friend...but at least they are being allowed for the first time to vote for the leaders of their choice. And despite the fear of being targeted by the terrorists that want to undermine this new electoral process, they are still turning out to the polls to exercise this new-found freedom to vote.

I agree with you that the timing may not have been the best, but at least it is a start.

My heart and best wishes go out to all those in Iraq and elsewhere that hope for a day that they, too, can enjoy some of those most basic freedoms that so many of us enjoy:

The right to choose our government leaders and the right to speak out against those leaders if we so desire.

I would like to live long enough to see the day that all people in all lands have the same freedoms that I enjoy, but I doubt that will happen. But it doesn't hurt to hope!

Regards,

Mike



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NumberTwelve
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RE: So Nice To See Arabs Voting--Good Luck George Bush

Sun Jan 30, 2005 10:27 pm

5T6 , maybe the election in Iraq is good for US standard, but not for higher EU standard, sorry.

Maybe you are voting a president like that (whole villages/towns aren't able to elect), but that's not a democratic election.
It's a show, or let's say propaganda.
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LHMark
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RE: So Nice To See Arabs Voting--Good Luck George Bush

Sun Jan 30, 2005 11:38 pm

CNN is reporting a 72% voter turnout. If this number is accurate, it shows that Iraqis believe in either the validity of this election or the democratic process itself. Either way, it's a step forward and a middle finger from the populace to the insurgents. Good for them, let's see the insurgents follow 72% of the population home.

This is new, and probably a flawed election, but it's a start to letting these folks have their country back.
"Sympathy is something that shouldn't be bestowed on the Yankees. Apparently it angers them." - Bob Feller
 
csavel
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RE: So Nice To See Arabs Voting--Good Luck George Bush

Sun Jan 30, 2005 11:39 pm

So far I have to admit the elections seem to be going better than I had expected.

However, the question is what if a "freely elected" Iraqi government decides as is their right not to become a "free market paradise" like their "American advisors" want? Or what if this freely elected government decides not to have a status of forces agreement or ferment bases? Or what if they think having advisor in every ministry and an embassy of 3,500 people impinges on their sovereignty?

Algeria had free elections and it elected an Islamic government, the Pro Western military overthrew that and it was a decade of a bloody civil war.

Again, I hope I look like a fool and eat crow publicly here on this board, but Western governments (not *just* the US BTW, Britain and France are just as guilty here) have a history of destabilizing and even overthrowing freely elected governments of those freely elected governments aren't puppets. A small list below. Can't guarantee the dates are 100 correct, but they are close.

Iran 1953 I think - Mohammed Mossadagh, really one of the prime reasons of Iranian hatred of the US.

Guatemala 1950s - Jacobo Arbenz, got too uppity and dared to challenge United Fruits treating his country as a large estate.

Chile 1973 - The *other* September 11th.

Haiti - oh last year - Aristide was freely elected and the *insurrection* was basically bought and paid for by the US> I was actually surprised that the US even cared about Haiti, but I guess Arisitde got too uppity

Venezuela - last year. Not that I am a fan of Chavez, and the anti Chavistas have a point, but he was *freely* elected, and it is Venezuela's right to either go that route or change in another election. We inspired the failed coup. And our "national endowment for democracy" paid for and created the recall that failed miserably.

To wit, what if a freely elected government says thanks a lot US, now get out and we are going to keep the oil industry nationalized and we are going to not allow you to have a permanent base here and we want our oil paid for in Euros. That is what the people who elected us want.

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yyz717
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RE: So Nice To See Arabs Voting--Good Luck George Bush

Sun Jan 30, 2005 11:43 pm

Voter turnout is estimated at 72% in Iraq and 95% in Baghdad. It's a great day for freedom and democracy in the world, and in at least one corner of the Middle East. The entire world should be grateful to the US for making this election possible. The Iraqi people clearly believe in democracy now that they have been given the chance.

Shame on the rest of the Arab world for not turning to democracy and not letting Arab citizens vote for their own leaders of choice.

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gkirk
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RE: So Nice To See Arabs Voting--Good Luck George Bush

Mon Jan 31, 2005 1:37 am

5T6 , maybe the election in Iraq is good for US standard, but not for higher EU standard, sorry.

So the EU has a higher standard than the US? They're both run by dumbasses so how can the standards be different?
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Falcon84
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RE: So Nice To See Arabs Voting--Good Luck George Bush

Mon Jan 31, 2005 1:43 am

I wish President Bush the best of luck as he sets out on this monumental task. May God watch over him in his endeavor.

Should we beatify him, now and post him for sainthood, Rjpieces?

Can I throw up now, after reading that garbage?  Laugh out loud
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daedaeg
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RE: So Nice To See Arabs Voting--Good Luck George Bush

Mon Jan 31, 2005 1:47 am

Well while the world whines about the justifications for war, Iraqis voted with a 72% turnout. There are even reports of up to 90% in certain areas. That kind of turnout puts American voters to shame. I would like to thank the Iraqi people, coalition forces, and others for all the sacrifices they've made to make this day possible. I believe in 3-5 years we're going to see a new Iraq, hence a new middle-east emerge making the world better and safer. This is the beginning to a new and great future for the people of Iraq.
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airplay
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RE: So Nice To See Arabs Voting--Good Luck George Bush

Mon Jan 31, 2005 1:51 am

It was so much better under Saddam Hussein. They got threatened with death unless they voted for Saddamn in previous elections.

Um...didn't the US outlaw various political parties? Just how "free" are these elections?

Voter turnout is estimated at 72% in Iraq and 95% in Baghdad.

So...is that "registered" voters? Just how exactly can they get an accurate number here?

Shame on the rest of the Arab world for not turning to democracy and not letting Arab citizens vote for their own leaders of choice.

If you think every country in the world is ready for democracy, you are fooling yourself. If you think Iraq is ready again, keep fooling yourself.

"Freedom" by its very nature must be desired. Democracy can't suddenly be "imposed" on people. Shame on the Arab world? You are talking about a culture that is eons old. Did you ever stop and think that perhaps they should be "free" to run thier affairs as they see fit?
 
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jetjack74
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RE: So Nice To See Arabs Voting--Good Luck George Bush

Mon Jan 31, 2005 2:07 am

No two parties agree with each other, most of the voters are risking their lives by just going to vote,
That's the point of these elections.
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jaysit
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RE: So Nice To See Arabs Voting--Good Luck George Bush

Mon Jan 31, 2005 3:30 am

This turnout is pretty amazing.
I thought it would be a maximum of about 30% (which would still be high given the circumstances !).
But 60% is unprecedented, even for the US.
Thats what $ 1 billion a day in security forces gets you.

If this indeed causes a transition to a successfully democratic Iraq, history may forget GWB's trumped up reasons to go to war, and the collaboration of his neocons with Saddam during the 80s.

Only time will tell.
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gigneil
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RE: So Nice To See Arabs Voting--Good Luck George Bush

Mon Jan 31, 2005 3:40 am

You're wishing George Bush luck as millions of Iraqis risk their lives?

Sad, and pathetic.

There s gonna be a civil war between sunni and shiia muslims, but I guess thats not a problem for the US forces......

Also a stupid comment. The Shiia outnumber the Sunni by such a huge number that "civil war" won't be possible.

N
 
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yyz717
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RE: So Nice To See Arabs Voting--Good Luck George Bush

Mon Jan 31, 2005 3:45 am

"Freedom" by its very nature must be desired. Democracy can't suddenly be "imposed" on people. Shame on the Arab world? You are talking about a culture that is eons old. Did you ever stop and think that perhaps they should be "free" to run thier affairs as they see fit?

Iraqi's are free to run their own affairs effective today for the first time in 50 years. Democracy by its very nature is never imposed. Anyway, with a 72% turnout, Iraqi's are voting in favour of democracy.

Airplay, your hatred of the US prevents you from acknowledging what a wonderful day today is for Iraqi's. They are executing their democratic right for the first time in 50 years, thanks to the US. It must horrify you when the US is able to bring about such a flourishing of democracy.  Yeah sure
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ANCFlyer
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RE: So Nice To See Arabs Voting--Good Luck George Bush

Mon Jan 31, 2005 3:48 am

There s gonna be a civil war between sunni and shiia muslims, but I guess thats not a problem for the US forces......

A perfect example of why we'll be force to stay in Iraq for the foreeeable future - unless told to leave - to help stabilize the elected government. We did the same thing in Germany and Japan . . .

I would restate an earlier opinion however . . . if the Iraqi government orders us out of the country, we need to depart. If they ask for our help, we must stay - we started this - until he government and the people are satisfied.



FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
Jalto27R
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RE: So Nice To See Arabs Voting--Good Luck George Bush

Mon Jan 31, 2005 3:48 am

The voter turnout..was..amazing! up to 72% overall and up to even 90% in Baghdad! I watched some of the video of polling places in America, where the expatriates were dancing and singing. This is a very joyous day indeed, and needs to have light put on it. People who refuse to say it is a good thing, and that civil war will erupt, are just that desperate to find something negative in a day of positive results. Like the previous poster said, civil war would just be plain stupid.
 
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RE: So Nice To See Arabs Voting--Good Luck George Bush

Mon Jan 31, 2005 3:51 am

This is very uplifting to see. The Iraqi people are basically telling the insurgents - f$#* off, we're voting.  Big thumbs up

Regardless of the outcome, right now, Iraq is showing a great side of democracy.

To the Iraqi people. the best of luck to you!!
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jetjack74
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RE: So Nice To See Arabs Voting--Good Luck George Bush

Mon Jan 31, 2005 4:08 am

The thought of Arabs actually getting to vote for anything, is a the biggest surprise of all
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jaysit
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RE: So Nice To See Arabs Voting--Good Luck George Bush

Mon Jan 31, 2005 4:58 am

It must horrify you when the US is able to bring about such a flourishing of democracy.

Under a watchful eye of 200,000 US troops and at a cost of $ 1 Billion a day. If you had such a budget, you'd bring about a flourishing of anything you wanted !

Remember that with the absence of any WMDs, any credibility this administration has left was riding on this election.

Allawi, however, is just another Baathist thug, like the man he once served under. I wonder who will win power to the Iraqi interim government since conventional electioneering wasn't possible given the security problems.
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flybyguy
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RE: So Nice To See Arabs Voting--Good Luck George Bush

Mon Jan 31, 2005 4:59 am

Wow I thought this election would be a failure... but it is an overwhelming success! A 72% overall turnout frankly means that there are simply a few scrummy bad eggs trying to ruin Iraq for everyone.

I only wish we could see that kind of turnout in US elections, unfortunately much like the Iraqi situation it takes dire national circumstances to get the American people off their couches and to the polls.

I could imagine that voter turnout would have been 80% or better had the 9-11 attacks happened before a presidential election.
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jaysit
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RE: So Nice To See Arabs Voting--Good Luck George Bush

Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:02 am

I wonder what the Saudis must be thinking about all of this.

Are their days numbered?
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aerobalance
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RE: So Nice To See Arabs Voting--Good Luck George Bush

Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:28 am

Quite the high voter turn-out. Shows the world the majority of the people in Iraq WANT the freedom to decide, interesting.
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iakobos
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RE: So Nice To See Arabs Voting--Good Luck George Bush

Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:44 am

A good turn out is only a pleasant surprise for those who know zilch about Iraq.
The Shia (a 60-65% majority in the country) were expected to vote en bloc.
A turn out figure below 80% would be a surprise.

Sunni clerics have clearly instructed not to vote, and except for some neighbourhoods in Baghdad, it seems the counting will be extremely quick and calculation easy.

The surprise seems to be in the North (Kurd majority) where the turn out is below expectations.

Thanks to the determination (and long awaited revenge) of the Shia, these elections will be sufficiently credible in terms of global figures, though they are not in terms of representation.

Democracy ? nothing wrong with dreaming.
 
aerobalance
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RE: So Nice To See Arabs Voting--Good Luck George Bush

Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:54 am

Iakobos,

'You can't always get what you want' M. Jagger-K. Richards.

I've seen you argue every item presented that concerns the present situation in Iraq. Yet, I have not seen you present any sort of solution. Why is this?

[Edited 2005-01-30 21:54:43]
"Sing a song, play guitar, make it snappy..."
 
qr332
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RE: So Nice To See Arabs Voting--Good Luck George Bush

Mon Jan 31, 2005 6:06 am

That's the point of these elections.

The point of the elections is that Iraqis should risk their lives to go vote for a leader? I'd rather stay home and watch over my family than risk losing everything for a vote that will probably shake the country into civil war anyway. And by don't agree with each other I don't mean policies, I mean each party is willing to destroy the other in any means possible. Would be interesting to see what happens to Iraq if it is turned into an Ultra-Shi'aa state, which is VERY probable. A second Iran...

Yyz,
Iraqi's are free to run their own affairs effective today for the first time in 50 years. Democracy by its very nature is never imposed. Anyway, with a 72% turnout, Iraqi's are voting in favour of democracy.

Not in Dubya's eyes. In his eyes, he MUST spread freedom. And a 72% turnout based on what? They are not free to run their own affairs, they have foreign forces controlling their country, look up a few articles on how free Fallujah is. It's more like something that came out of Orwell's 1984 than a free city.

...what a wonderful day today is for Iraqi's.

We'll see the results.

They are executing their democratic right for the first time in 50 years, thanks to the US.

At the cost of how many of their fellow country men? About 40,000 at the last count as far as I know.

It must horrify you when the US is able to bring about such a flourishing of democracy.

Move their if its such a flourishing democracy, Yyz. So flurishing that there is no such thing as security or saftey.

Jetjack74,
The thought of Arabs actually getting to vote for anything, is a the biggest surprise of all

Not as surprising as racist people like you making comments like that, though.

And about your comment regarding my freedom in the other thread - thats for me to worry about, not you. It is MY freedom, and I am happy with the way I am living here in Qatar right now. America is its own country, it is not some higher authority who have to over see the freedom of the world.
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
rjpieces
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RE: So Nice To See Arabs Voting--Good Luck George Bush

Mon Jan 31, 2005 6:30 am

Not as surprising as racist people like you making comments like that, though.

Was he wrong? When was the last time Arabs voted in free elections?
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
lehpron
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RE: So Nice To See Arabs Voting--Good Luck George Bush

Mon Jan 31, 2005 6:55 am

>>"America is its own country, it is not some higher authority who have to over see the freedom of the world."<<

America's current leadership honestly thinks that as long as some countries do not have their (US's not country's in question) freedoms, those countries are a danger to them. Remember, we went to Iraq for us, not the Iraqis. Most Iraqis died under Saddam in 1992, it took 11 years to care.

Proud day for who? So what Iraqi voter turn out is 70+%, what if the vote is such that a war does indeed break out between the remaining population sometime in the future? Will US forces get to interfere?

I believe this to be a serious question, whether you do or not is irrelevent, if anyone can answer this it would be appreciated.
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ConcordeBoy
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RE: So Nice To See Arabs Voting--Good Luck George Bush

Mon Jan 31, 2005 7:11 am

The thought of Arabs actually getting to vote for anything, is a the biggest surprise of all

Not as surprising as racist people like you making comments like that, though.



...yet another example of "racist/racism", perhaps the most trite and overused words in the English language, being applied to an overwhelmingly justified assessment.  Insane
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iakobos
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RE: So Nice To See Arabs Voting--Good Luck George Bush

Mon Jan 31, 2005 7:12 am

Aero,

I am no politician nor do I pretend to be one (nor do I wish to be one).
As a man with an history and a very extensively travelled person, I know that balance is what keeps the world rolling. (and aircraft flying)

Everyone is free to think differently.

I have no solution and the best that some others have is to think that they might have one.
Of course a free electoral process is a positive thing, wherever it might be, but thinking that democracy is the outcome is very naive. It could be in Iraq, but chances are very slim.



 
Springbok747
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RE: So Nice To See Arabs Voting--Good Luck George Bush

Mon Jan 31, 2005 7:12 am

I'd rather stay home and watch over my family than risk losing everything for a vote that will probably shake the country into civil war anyway.

No wonder most of the Arab countries have such great democracies  Yeah sure

At the cost of how many of their fellow country men? About 40,000 at the last count as far as I know.

How many people did Saddam kill? Do you know the numbers, I bet it was way more than 40,000.
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airxliban
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RE: So Nice To See Arabs Voting--Good Luck George Bush

Mon Jan 31, 2005 7:20 am

While it is somewhat of an accomplishment, I don't think that this is a sign of anything other than the US photocopying their democracy and shoving it down everyone else's throat.

Anyway, with a little bit of luck, Iraq will stabilize in the next X years, where X is not likely to be less than 10.
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BA
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RE: So Nice To See Arabs Voting--Good Luck George Bush

Mon Jan 31, 2005 7:29 am

Was he wrong? When was the last time Arabs voted in free elections?

He was wrong and you are wrong as usual.

Lebanon had its last major elections, the parliamentary elections in 2001.

And guess what's coming up this summer? Those same elections.

Every four years, the Lebanese people elect 128 members of parliament who then elect a president every six years.

This is what a parliamentary democracy is.

Municipal elections (district) were held last summer, but those aren't very important. However turnout was very high.

These upcoming elections will be VERY important...

If I am in Lebanon at the time of the parliamentary elections, I will vote. Minimum voting age is 18 like here in the US, however many are pushing to lower it to 16.
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
jaysit
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RE: So Nice To See Arabs Voting--Good Luck George Bush

Mon Jan 31, 2005 7:30 am

A successful democracy in Iraq is now essential to the United States' credibility.

We will do whatever is possible, and at whatever cost possible, to ensure that it will succeed.

We have no choice, and at this point suggesting that the US leave Iraq is tantamount to letting Iraq slide into an anarchichal mess. Allawi and his band of 4000 raggedy troops cannot control Iraq, neither can Sistani's coalition. Only the US can.

Also, whoever wins knows that without the US their claim to power will be eliminated. Thus, the US could effectively ensure that whoever wins comply with at least some minimal standard of human rights. This would be a win-win situation for both the Iraqis and the US. The former will get some semblance of a governing democracy, and the US will save face after its bogus reasons to go to war, and, perhaps, even come out looking good.
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rjpieces
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RE: So Nice To See Arabs Voting--Good Luck George Bush

Mon Jan 31, 2005 7:34 am

Hey BA, I still haven't heard your explanation for this one.

http://www.freedomhouse.org/research/freeworld/2003/countryratings/lebanon.htm
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
BA
Posts: 10516
Joined: Fri May 19, 2000 11:06 am

RE: So Nice To See Arabs Voting--Good Luck George Bush

Mon Jan 31, 2005 7:42 am

RJpieces,

You heard my explanation about the source that labels Kuwait and Morocco as "partially free."

I found that absolutely hilarious.

In that case, Saudi Arabia is partially free...

The entire Middle East is "partially free" if Kuwait and Morocco are labeled as "partially free."

Basically, I won't take that "Freedom Source" for a grain of salt.

Looking at the trend, any country that has warm relations with the US is labeled as "partially free."

Kuwait and Morocco having warm relationships with the US, especially now, explains it...

Getting back to the topic, I am happy about these elections and I am glad to see that voter turnout was high, for the sake of the Iraqi people and their country.

However, this doesn't change the fact that the US undermined democracy in the Middle East in favor of totalitarian puppet dictatorships and continues to support them today.

As for undermining US democracy in the Middle East, there is one EXCELLENT example....

One name...Mohammed Mossadegh.

[Edited 2005-01-31 00:05:05]
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
jaysit
Posts: 10185
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RE: So Nice To See Arabs Voting--Good Luck George Bush

Mon Jan 31, 2005 7:47 am

The state of freedom in Kuwait has in fact worsened since 1991, with an increased presence of Islamists in the National Assembly.

And we all know what the state of democracy is in Saudi Arabia, a country whose second largest export is Islamic terrorism.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
rjpieces
Topic Author
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RE: So Nice To See Arabs Voting--Good Luck George Bush

Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:09 am

BA, if you bothered to read the site, this is what is said:

Kuwait:A measure of the progress of Kuwait's political reforms over the past decade is the fact that the most contentious political clashes in 2002 took place within the halls of the National Assembly. In April, the education minister narrowly escaped a vote of no confidence by members of parliament who accused him of not fully implementing a law requiring gender segregation in universities. In June, members of parliament endlessly grilled the finance minister over allegations that he squandered public funds.

Morocco:While Morocco held the freest and fairest elections of its history in 2002, the conspicuous absence of a major Islamist party on the ballot, low voter turnout, and lack of transparency in the formation of a new government underscored how little things have changed politically. Nevertheless, the harsh crackdown on dissent that had continued throughout 2001 was eased

Lebanon: Lebanon received a downward trend arrow due to the closure of the country’s main independent television station, the unprecedented threatening of mainstream opposition figures with investigations for alleged ties to foreign powers, and the invalidation of a June by-election for politically motivated reasons.

Basically, I won't take that "Freedom Source" for a grain of salt.

So an organization of professionals that has done this for years, which is mentioned in most major Pol. Sci. college textbooks, which is relied upon by most major magazines and newspapers, and of course the US Congress and Government is WRONG but you are RIGHT. Freedom House has a lot more credibility than you.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
iakobos
Posts: 3255
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2003 6:22 pm

RE: So Nice To See Arabs Voting--Good Luck George Bush

Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:10 am

Perhaps not totally unrelated, Haliburton has announced that it plans to cease its operations in Iran (capital: Tehran) soon, mentioning an unfavourable commercial environment.
That does not smell too good...
 
Blackbird1331
Posts: 1741
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2004 10:47 am

RE: So Nice To See Arabs Voting--Good Luck George Bush

Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:36 am

The man has an agenda. History will not record each and every death of our soldiers, measure the pain and suffering of their families, nor will it care what the members at a.net think. They will write history as though this man single handedly freed Iraq and brought/bought, it democracy. First time around it was $89B; and just two days ago it was another $80B. When he comes to congress 18 months from now looking for another $100B, that is when the American s*** will hit the fan. If we saved some lives over there and relieved some suffering, it was at our exspence. Ask yourself, how did these people get the nerve to take on the mightiest nation on earth, but did not have the courage to dispose of a tyrant in their own country? Too bad this president cannot be as aggressive in solving domestic problems.
Cameras shoot pictures. Guns shoot people. They have the guns.
 
BA
Posts: 10516
Joined: Fri May 19, 2000 11:06 am

RE: So Nice To See Arabs Voting--Good Luck George Bush

Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:48 am

Alright Rjpieces...I'm going to disect what you posted about Lebanon from this beloved website of yours.

Lebanon received a downward trend arrow due to the closure of the country’s main independent television station

Murr TV. This station was shut down after it broadcasted an interview by General Aoun (a war leader in exile in France, he's going to come back soon though) after being told not to. I don't know the exact details.

Anyway, they ignored the government and broadcasted the interview and as a result were shut down.

I think it was wrong that it was shut down and it did violate freedom of speech.

However, are we going to automatically accuse Lebanon of not being free because of ONE mishap?

The government was highly criticized for its move and since then, nothing similar has happened.

Freedom of speech is still highly protected in Lebanon and nobody can silence you for your political views.

the unprecedented threatening of mainstream opposition figures with investigations for alleged ties to foreign powers

Gee, and this does not happen here in the USA?

This happens everywhere my friend.

People like to shut up the messenger and make accusations to do so.

and the invalidation of a June by-election for politically motivated reasons.

A member of parliament died so by-elections were held to replace him. One of the candidates who had won was apparantly cheating in his campaigning (in his advertisements) and thus another candidate was given the position.

Some contest it was the right decision, some contest it was not. Simply to say it the by-elections were invalidated is false as it is contested.

So an organization of professionals that has done this for years, which is mentioned in most major Pol. Sci. college textbooks, which is relied upon by most major magazines and newspapers, and of course the US Congress and Government is WRONG but you are RIGHT. Freedom House has a lot more credibility than you.

Hardly Rjpieces, it's called looking at things from a different perspective.

Just because these guys are professionals it doesn't mean I don't have the right to question them.

By looking at what you posted, they seem to focus on a few mishaps and inflate them to make Lebanon look just plain bad.

Lebanon has many sects which in turn has created very diverse political beliefs, many conflicting ones.

Everyone is free to express their beliefs.

Whether one supports the Syrian army presence in Lebanon or not, they cannot be silenced for their views.

There are sometimes attempted assassinations, but this happens everywhere in the world. Look what happened in the Ukraine recently.

Rjpieces, I will leave you with these two article:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2004-08-21-lebanon-democracy_x.htm
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A62225-2004Oct25.html

[Edited 2005-01-31 00:52:28]
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran

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