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cragley
Topic Author
Posts: 397
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2004 6:09 pm

Working With Women

Thu Feb 03, 2005 1:13 am


Ok this thread is not intended to be sexcist in anyway.....BUT.....here is the situation.

I work in a small team of 3 people. Me, being the guy, and I work with 2 women. One is in her 40's (possibly menopausal) and the other one is 50 (definately menopausal).

They both agree with each other on everything, and it seems that whatever I suggest is the complete opposite of what I had suggested.

So here is the question, how do I get around them when they irritate me with their uninteresting conversations, stupid mannerisms, unfunny jokes and old people/female wit?????

My current strategy is to shut my mouth and not communicate with them in anyway. I am seriously out of ideas here guys.


Any suggestions?

 
707CMF
Posts: 4698
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RE: Working With Women

Thu Feb 03, 2005 1:22 am

Just sleep with them once or twice... they've probaly forgot what it was like by now...

Cheers,

707
 
Logan22L
Posts: 4464
Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2004 5:59 am

RE: Working With Women

Thu Feb 03, 2005 1:24 am

Your post may not intend to be sexist, but your statements certainly belie that claim. Mention of menopause and its role in your interaction with your colleagues is sexist, plain and simple. Not only that, your resent their age, their mannerisms, their conversations...

Anyway, do a good job. Don't engage in casual conversation if you don't want to. Do excellent work, be efficient, innovative, on time, practical, all the things it takes to be considered valuble. After that, any issues will work themselves out (read: you'll be too busy to care about your perception of them).

Logan
 
PacificWestern
Posts: 517
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RE: Working With Women

Thu Feb 03, 2005 1:27 am

Tell them you're gay and you were wondering if they'd like to go shopping with you so that you can give them wardrobe tips.  Big grin
 
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n229nw
Posts: 2031
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RE: Working With Women

Thu Feb 03, 2005 1:28 am

Cragley,

I honestly don't mean this in a mean way, but have you considered that the problem might be your attutude?

I say this because you started a whole thread a while back to talk about how Londoners were "sad, materialistic" etc. people you couldn't get along with. Then your recent contributions in other threads have trashed Israelis and (sort of) Swedes, and now women. I wonder who you DO get along with...

I have the feeling you tend to pre-decide you aren't going to be able to relate to a certain group, and then it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. In this situation, for example, you are probably giving off fairly antagonistic vibes that will result in the two women feeling like they must unite against you. Have you considered trying to see things their way, making it clear that you care about them and their opinions, etc., and through this "earning the right" to totally disagree with them when you really feel something is important?

Just some thoughts.
 
aerobalance
Posts: 4313
Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2000 8:35 am

RE: Working With Women

Thu Feb 03, 2005 1:33 am

Cragley,

With my day job I face the same situation as you, I share part of my lab with some of the types you mentioned and they DO the same exact things as you stated, INTENTIONALLY. Best thing I've done, since day one, is to keep ones mouth shut. They are trying to bait you into trouble. If you have to, go to Human Resources and file a complaint, that should shut them up. Do not talk to them, they are trouble.
 
msllsmith
Posts: 387
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 3:25 am

RE: Working With Women

Thu Feb 03, 2005 1:35 am

Hmmm. Sounds like a problem. Speaking as a woman apparently in this age range (possibly menopausal....  Smile ) who has frequently worked with younger men and gotten along really well with them..... First a few questions: Don't you have your profession in common?; Have you tried charming them?; Have you ever done something radical like get drunk with them?... I'm not kidding.....(You can always try seducing them... sometimes not a good idea.... but use your own judgement on this one)

If none of these things work, perhaps discretion is the better part of valor. Keep your mouth shut, do your job and go home to love another day.

One other question; Just out of curiosity..... what exactly is a typical "menopausal" woman? .... I thought only women made menopausal jokes..... My favorite, "I'm pre-menstrual, pre-menopausal and I have a gun".... but then again I'm 6'0" tall, and alot of people I work are not...so.

I'll be really interested in the responses to this one.
 
SlamClick
Posts: 9576
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2003 7:09 am

RE: Working With Women

Thu Feb 03, 2005 3:28 am

Any time a person has to begin a statement with: "Now I'm not (racist), (sexist), (whatever) or with "I have nothing against . . ." you can be sure that the opinions expressed are going to challenge that claim.

If you start with "no offense meant but . . ." I'm betting that offense will be taken.

There is a particular type of worker I do not like or admire very much. This person forms secret networks, invents their own filing or other systems, and deliberately obscures the workflow around them in order to make themselves appear indispensible. There is at least one in every large office population.

No offense meant  Smile but they are VERY much more common in Government offices.

I'm really not a sexist  Smile but women are more likely to be this kind of person.

When they identify each other in an office they form little alliances. It may be that you've had the misfortune of landing between two of them.

On the other hand you may just be a self-absorbed jerk who cannot imagine any non-sexual use for women.
Only you can play off that tie.

So which is it?

The "menopausal" remark did not help your case much.
Try seeing male conversation from an outsider's point of view some time. We are crashing bores except to each other.

Best advice from the posts above, but in my own words: Keep your mouth shut. Do your own job, and do it well. If you think they really might be trying to torpedo you, document stuff. Do not ever get involved in anything with them for which you could be (even slightly) blackmailed. Be completely proper in your conduct toward, and speech around, them.

Remember, nothing lasts forever.
 
airplay
Posts: 3369
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 1:58 am

RE: Working With Women

Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:02 am

People will tell you that when it comes to work, men and women are "equal" in their abilities, work ethic, drive and morals.

I'm here to tell you that those people don't know what they're talking about. By the way, call it what you will, but it's impossible to speak about differences between men and women without "sexist" statements.

If you were to rate men and women on a scale based on pure output, you'd probably have pretty even numbers. The issue is that men and women take different paths and strategies to achieve the same thing.

I haven't quite figured out all the differences but here are a few I have learned to deal with (Yes these are “generalizations” so don’t get bent out of shape):

1) Women treat work like just another social outing. Everything that matters at a party or get-together, matters at work. Appearances are important. Social stature is important. Hierarchy is maintained at all times, in or out of work.

2) Women are much more sensitive than men. This causes them put everything aside for what they perceive to be much more important such as the observance of a birthday. If it weren’t for women in the work place, I would guess that companies that make birthday cakes would take a hit.

3) Women will cry. Not because their arm has suddenly been ripped off. It could be that their significant other forgot her birthday. Or maybe they suddenly realized they have a shitty job. It is completely useless to discuss ANYTHING with someone who is crying, much less business matters. In my experience it is best to give them a chance to compose themselves before moving along.

4) Women have ovaries. We can’t ignore that fact that women are at the mercy of the hormones that are associated with having these structures anymore than we can ignore that brothers will fight to the death because they have testicles. So yes…menopause is a big deal and so is the menstrual cycle. Some women become quite difficult during certain periods of the month and have various issues to deal with during menopause. We all just need to give them space and forgive the odd bout of temporary insanity…

5) Woman are always working. Unlike men, women are often tasked with traditional chores like laundry, cleaning and cooking while us men need to tend to more manly chores like cutting the grass or fixing the car. The difference is that stoves, washers and dryers are no fun to use. On the other hand, sending a man to the garage is like sending a kid to his bedroom knowing full well he has video games, a computer and enough toys to choke a giraffe in there. Since women are always working, they feel the need to integrate their personal lives into work. So….just put up with the odd personal jabber. When else are they gonna do it?

6) Men and women gossip, but women particularly enjoy malicious gossip. I fear I will receive the most flak about this observation than all the rest. Gossip is never a good think in the work place. However, I feel that women tend to gossip about “juicier” things than men. In an effort to establish the pecking order, women will point out every single little flaw that their coworkers exhibit. They don’t discriminate between sexes here either. If a woman at work finds out something personal about you that has the potential to damage you in any way, be sure it will be spread.

Please don’t consider these comments “absolutes”. They are obviously generalizations based on my personal experience. I’m sure many have met women who never cry and men that have cyclic bouts of insanity that seem to coincide with the phases of the moon.

Also, ignore the fact that I didn’t make a list about men. I have one…but that’s a different topic.

The underlying message is that men and women don’t typically work well together without realizing that they are different and will work differently to achieve the same result.
 
Kay
Posts: 1808
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2002 3:41 pm

RE: Working With Women

Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:19 am

Why do they not like you?

Usually women this age have by definition a "penchant" towards people your age. You mention menopause. My humble experience tells me that women at that age go through enormous biological changes and therefore become more needy. You being younger and by defnition perceived as more physical and capable, they are attracted to you. Doesn't mean something's got to happen, but they enjoy having someone of your age around them, I am sure. Maybe to prove to themselves that nothing changed...

So the age difference, as I see it, is to your advantage... This situation should be easy to fix, just use a mild touch of charm, imagine they are a beautiful woman for 3 seconds everytime you want to talk, and watch the change!


Kay

 
iakobos
Posts: 3255
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2003 6:22 pm

RE: Working With Women

Thu Feb 03, 2005 5:52 am

You should have provided some pictures, it would have helped us, humble helping hands, to assess the gravity of your problem.

One option would be to file for sexual harassment. Even it is not in the true physical sense (the pics would help), I am sure the laws of the Principalty of Liechtenstein include abusive language and sexually oriented psychological harassment.

Another option would be.....to get their attention.
Ever tried to ask them something for which they may have a lot more knowledge than yourself ? If your profile is about correct, both of them have lived one life more than you.
Ever tried to break the ice in one or another soft and kind way ?

At the end of the day it is either war or communication. Make the choice.
IMO 707CMF presents a valuable suggestion. (again..the pics)
 
saxdiva
Posts: 2332
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2004 6:51 pm

RE: Working With Women

Thu Feb 03, 2005 6:37 am

You know, I keep forgetting that the reason I made a "no a.net between the hours of 6am and 10pm" rule for myself is because THIS happens. My comments are in boldface.

People will tell you that when it comes to work, men and women are "equal" in their abilities, work ethic, drive and morals.

I'm here to tell you that those people don't know what they're talking about.


Airplay, this is a really bad way to get the conversational ball rolling. Which gender group, then, is lower on the scale of "abilities, work ethic, drive, and morals?" Please give this a lot of thought before you answer, okay?

By the way, call it what you will, but it's impossible to speak about differences between men and women without "sexist" statements.

That is patently untrue. There is a way, and it's called making *objective* statements. Consider trying it.

If you were to rate men and women on a scale based on pure output, you'd probably have pretty even numbers. The issue is that men and women take different paths and strategies to achieve the same thing.

You know, Airplay, you said this twice in this treatise, but you didn't provide provide a single piece of evidence to back it up. I, for one, would love to see one.

I haven't quite figured out all the differences but here are a few I have learned to deal with (Yes these are “generalizations” so don’t get bent out of shape):

You're right--they *are* generalizations, which is why they tend to get everyone pissed off. When you make a sweeping statement like that, you paint a whole group of individuals with some lame-assed theory you conconcted in the course of your own experience. And yes, I reserve every right to get "bent out of shape" about that.

1) Women treat work like just another social outing. Everything that matters at a party or get-together, matters at work. Appearances are important. Social stature is important. Hierarchy is maintained at all times, in or out of work.

This is so ridiculous I don't even know where to begin. For starters, I didn't spend umpteen years in school, go into debt measured in the tens of thousands of dollars, and then put the rest of my life on hold once again to get an MBA, all to attend a frigging gala. Nor do the other millons of women in the workforce--they have kids to feed, mortgages to pay, and goals and aspirations to acheive.

Also, speaking to your second point about appearances, social stature, and hierarchy being important--have you ever interfaced with male executives? Ever unwittingly (or not) done something that breached the unwritten hierarchical protocol at that level? That, my dear sir, can be a career-ending move in many organizations. To say that appearances only matter to women is simply absurd.


2) Women are much more sensitive than men. This causes them put everything aside for what they perceive to be much more important such as the observance of a birthday. If it weren’t for women in the work place, I would guess that companies that make birthday cakes would take a hit.

While it occurs to me to realize that, statistically speaking, women probably do organize more of the office celebrations than men do, it's probably due, at least in part, to the fact that there are also proportionally fewer women on the higher rungs (and more on the lower ones) of organizational ladders than men. As you look at increasingly responsible positions in the company, I'd guess that you'll see the numbers of men vs. women who remember birthdays draw closer to even. Regardless, though, to say that "this causes them to put everything aside for what they perceive to be more important, such as the observance of a birthday" is patronizing almost to the point of being inflammatory. Do you work in environments where deadlines, etc., are missed because all the women are out buying cakes? It sure hasn't happened in any place *I've* worked.

3) Women will cry. Not because their arm has suddenly been ripped off. It could be that their significant other forgot her birthday. Or maybe they suddenly realized they have a shitty job. It is completely useless to discuss ANYTHING with someone who is crying, much less business matters. In my experience it is best to give them a chance to compose themselves before moving along.

I'm sorry, but anyone who suddenly "realizes" they've got a shitty job and bursts into tears is pushing the limits of stability. While I'll grant you that many (okay, maybe most) women handle *extreme* stress and frustration this way--and there are physiological reasons why this happens--there should also be certain expectations of professional behavior in the workplace. To simply assume that women do--or should--fall apart in tears at the drop of a hat tends to not only excuse what may be inappropriate behavior, but also possibly misses the point that some jobs are laden with enough stress to cause unhealthy behaviors in just about anyone.

4) Women have ovaries. We can’t ignore that fact that women are at the mercy of the hormones that are associated with having these structures anymore than we can ignore that brothers will fight to the death because they have testicles. So yes…menopause is a big deal and so is the menstrual cycle. Some women become quite difficult during certain periods of the month and have various issues to deal with during menopause. We all just need to give them space and forgive the odd bout of temporary insanity…

That is just simply insulting. I worked with a vice president once who subscribed to this inane idea, and he used it as a way of neutralizing women who were legitimately pissed at him for his tendency to go around undermining people. There is NO excuse for a woman to act like a miserable shrew one week out of the month--I certainly won't tolerate it from any I supervise, just like I won't put up with men who "fight to the death" in the workplace. Both sexes can save that crap for some other venue.

5) Woman are always working. Unlike men, women are often tasked with traditional chores like laundry, cleaning and cooking while us men need to tend to more manly chores like cutting the grass or fixing the car. The difference is that stoves, washers and dryers are no fun to use. On the other hand, sending a man to the garage is like sending a kid to his bedroom knowing full well he has video games, a computer and enough toys to choke a giraffe in there. Since women are always working, they feel the need to integrate their personal lives into work. So….just put up with the odd personal jabber. When else are they gonna do it?

You might be surprised to find that the legendary "second shift" is beginning to be questioned by recent studies that show men are taking on proportionally more household responsibilites. The increasing tendency of courts to give fathers a fairer shake in child custody matters is also resulting in more single dads in the workplace than ever before, meaning that companies now have to deal with employees of both sexes who struggle to balance work and family responsibilites.

All that said, I haven't seen a single study--nor have I noticed in my personal experience--men engaging in any less personal talk than women. Finally, your statement "since women are always working, they feel the need to integrate their personal lives into work" is far more patronizing than I think you realize. Please, don't portray yourself as a "man of the world" who's out to improve womens' lot in life by pointing this out. Frankly, it tends to do more harm than good.


6) Men and women gossip, but women particularly enjoy malicious gossip. I fear I will receive the most flak about this observation than all the rest. Gossip is never a good think in the work place. However, I feel that women tend to gossip about “juicier” things than men. In an effort to establish the pecking order, women will point out every single little flaw that their coworkers exhibit. They don’t discriminate between sexes here either. If a woman at work finds out something personal about you that has the potential to damage you in any way, be sure it will be spread.

Gossip is reprehensible regardless of who's doing it, and to suggest that "women particularly enjoy malicious gossip" is beyond insulting. If this is characteristic of the people you work with, I suggest you stop listening to it and go do your job.

Please don’t consider these comments “absolutes”. They are obviously generalizations based on my personal experience. I’m sure many have met women who never cry and men that have cyclic bouts of insanity that seem to coincide with the phases of the moon.

Nice try, but this doesn't get you off the hook. When you say things like "women do" and "women feel," you're engaging in the most counter-productive stereotyping imagineable. It's somewhat akin to saying "hispanics feel..." or "black people are..." Many of us work very hard to throw off these assumptions for exactly the same reasons--gender relations in the workplace--that you purport to enlighten us all with them. Please, do us all a favor and don't perpetuate it all.

Also, ignore the fact that I didn’t make a list about men. I have one…but that’s a different topic.

Oh, so you pigeonhole men, too? Goody. I'm sure they can't wait to hear it.

Sheesh. Insane
-Leanne
 
ScarletHarlot
Posts: 4251
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2003 12:15 pm

RE: Working With Women

Thu Feb 03, 2005 6:49 am

Yeah Saxdiva! You go girl!  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Women have tendencies toward certain things, while men have tendencies toward certain things. These things may or may not mesh. But, it's ridiculous to try to push women into their boxes, just as much as it's ridiculous to push men into their boxes. We're individuals, and people should be treated as individuals, without regard to their gender.

I highly resent it when people try to slap certain labels on me because I'm a girl. No, I don't want to do needlepoint, or stay at home, or cook. I want to work, and do math, and drive a car, and study weather. Deal with it.
 
aerobalance
Posts: 4313
Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2000 8:35 am

RE: Working With Women

Thu Feb 03, 2005 7:25 am

Airplay you overdid it with that one.... Every situation is different, it's just that I can relate to Cragley on his situation - let me describe in real-time. I'm typing this from my terminal in a corner of a processing lab which is shared with another dept. It consists of 5 women who have been working together for 20 years. They are in their mid-50's. My ovens are in a corner where I have this desk. I spend maybe 10 hours a week in this room to moniter my tests. They've come to accept me since I do not talk to them.

Right now two of the women are gossiping about another engineer and his son, all not true and in my mind it's none of their business. Now one is talking about how she hates to drive to Palm Springs to visit her Dad, but she has to do it, sigh. Now a loud shriek (thanks for the silence!) as they scream and laugh about the yeast infection their absent co-worker had least week (cringe to my ears). Hold on, one asked me a question about a certain car and I told them I don't know...I actually do know but I with-hold information since I've seen other mortals who were truthful and correct become condemned or criticized if the female heard the truth and wasn't happy about it, literally yelled at... Ok, the other guy left the room, now they are making fun of his shirt and wonder if he ever gets any women, f*ck they laugh like hens, oh, he stepped back in and now they're quiet - one does ask if he has a ladyfriend, he says yes, she laughs at him and says prove it it's impossible. WOW, talk about going back to grade-school! Now another engineer asks a technical question to one of them and he gets an answer of 'that's how it was on the print, draw it the right way', trouble is, he didn't draw it, his predecessor did and she advised him on the techincal aspects of that part, sigh. Oh, a VP just walked in the room and now the hi shrilled 'Hi and kiss-ass 'Hello's' are in play, All sweet and innocent, laughter and guffaws at a stupid joke the jack-ass chopped up, sheit, this is bad.

Ok, now you ask, how do they tolerate me? Because I told them off one day after they said something to me that was completely deragatory in order to show they were the 'boss of this room'. I looked each one of them in the eye, told them to f*ck off, said that if they ever got on my case about me working in here again that I will go straight to HR and tell them what they said to me. I then told them that I will not go to HR if they choose not to talk to me at anytime, no hellos' or what have you, just let me do my work in peace and leave me alone, they have done that. It only works for me since I called them out on what crap they have pulled on me, I was stearn and to the point. No trouble since then, that was 3 years ago, a year after I had to move my ovens in here.

Again, every situation is different, but I know EXACTLY what Cragley is going through all to well. It's just the nature of the beast.

[Edited 2005-02-02 23:27:57]
 
airplay
Posts: 3369
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 1:58 am

RE: Working With Women

Thu Feb 03, 2005 7:46 am

Saxdiva....just for you!

Airplay, this is a really bad way to get the conversational ball rolling. Which gender group, then, is lower on the scale of "abilities, work ethic, drive, and morals?" Please give this a lot of thought before you answer, okay?

There is room for "equal but different". You have obviously entered the conversation with a crappy attitude already....

You know, Airplay, you said this twice in this treatise, but you didn't provide provide a single piece of evidence to back it up. I, for one, would love to see one.

My insight is based on "personal experience". By its very definition I am not obligated to provide proof and you are under no obligation to believe me.

I waded through the rest of the responses, but feel they pretty much validate my findings.

Please, don't portray yourself as a "man of the world" who's out to improve womens' lot in life by pointing this out. Frankly, it tends to do more harm than good.

Funny...I didn't attempt to portay myself as a "man of the world". (You provided the quotes thereby putting words in my mouth). I also made no claim that my comments would improve a woman's lot in life. Again...don't put words in my mouth.

Which brings me to a point I forgot earlier. Thanks for reminding me Saxdiva!

7) Women will try to change (or redefine) their environment rather than work within it's defined parameters. This goes for relationships as well. In her attempt to demonize me, Saxdiva tried to re-define and re-qualify my statements.

You may regard my statements as negative or damaging Saxdiva, but thats not how they were intended. Men, through societal nurturing and hormonal forces have their own general characteristics when it comes to work. Some positive, some negative.

Men and women are different. Not just in the context of an intimate parts inventory. Many don't realize it and flounder around at work frustrated when they are force to deal with the differences.

I fully expected an energetic retort. And I figured it would come from a successful woman who has struggled through a system that is quite biased towards men. Which reminds me of another issue.

8) Women have a chip on their shoulder. I've witnessed this quite a few times. Women have to work hard to advance in the workplace. More so than men. This is unfortunate considering the history and the advances made in the last hundred years. Knowing this, women tend to feel they need to do better than their male counterparts in order to compensate. Besides my personal observations, I've actually had 2 women admit that they subscribe to this idea. In some companies its quite true. In others it's not, but you can still often find the one with this attitude no matter where they work.

In summary....yes. Things are changing. Men's and Women's roles are changing. Women are becoming more empowered and successful. My statements are generalizations but I think there is some validity there. Otherwise that book "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus" wouldn't exist..

 Smile

Men and women are different. They work (and play) different. And I wouldn't have it any other way...

 
pilotaydin
Posts: 2100
Joined: Tue Sep 07, 2004 12:30 am

RE: Working With Women

Thu Feb 03, 2005 7:53 am

Take em out....

show em your spout....

they'll listen to you without a doubt  Smile


you could get really dramatic, and make them slowly disagree with each other..cat fights are awesome, women have no limits when they are at war with one another lol
 
saxdiva
Posts: 2332
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2004 6:51 pm

RE: Working With Women

Thu Feb 03, 2005 9:00 am

Sigh... this is probably pointless, but what the hell...

There is room for "equal but different". You have obviously entered the conversation with a crappy attitude already....

I was reacting to your comments, and you didn't say anything about "equal but different." If you're going to rake me over the coals for demonizing *you,* don't start by lecturing me on my attitude.

My insight is based on "personal experience". By its very definition I am not obligated to provide proof and you are under no obligation to believe me.

Fair enough, but when you lay out statements as though they are universal truths, it's generally helpful to have some sort of premises to base them on.

7) Women will try to change (or redefine) their environment rather than work within it's defined parameters. This goes for relationships as well. In her attempt to demonize me, Saxdiva tried to re-define and re-qualify my statements.

Even if this weren't equally true for men, what would be the point? If an environment--in this case, an organizational construct--doesn't work, what would be the purpose in perpetuating it?

Also, when you refer to my "attempt to demonize you," you're re-qualifying and re-interpreting *my* statements. Where did I say anything about you personally?

You may regard my statements as negative or damaging Saxdiva, but thats not how they were intended. Men, through societal nurturing and hormonal forces have their own general characteristics when it comes to work. Some positive, some negative.

Consider the following statements:

"Women treat work like just another social outing. "

"We can’t ignore that fact that women are at the mercy of the hormones..."

"We all just need to give them space and forgive the odd bout of temporary insanity..."

"Men and women gossip, but women particularly enjoy malicious gossip."


Do they sound positive to you? As a matter of fact, the most positive thing you said in your original post was that if one were to rate men and women based on productive output they would probably be the same. Everything else comes across as terrifically patronizing.

I fully expected an energetic retort. And I figured it would come from a successful woman who has struggled through a system that is quite biased towards men. Which reminds me of another issue.

8) Women have a chip on their shoulder. I've witnessed this quite a few times.


You know what's ironic about all this, Airplay? You say the system is biased toward men, but then follow up with the unbelievably sweeping generalization that women have a chip on their shoulder. If you'd step back for a moment and think about it, that point of view is precisely what creates the situation you say you observe. When you go around making assumptions about and telling people--in this case, women--how they feel and why, you provoke exactly the type of reaction you expect to see. It's what they refer to in social sciences research as subject-object dualism.

I'll make one more point, and then I really need to get back to work. I can't imagine that it's that much a generational thing, but there are those of us who vigorously object to having sets of attributes thrust upon us like this, regardless of who's doing it. It irks me just as much when feminist discourse tries to paint women as victims of male domination, which is why I ended up on the outside of that movement many years ago. Your point of view (as you've articulated it, anyway) is similar to popular feminism in that both are biased in favor of collective attributes, and tend to ignore the vast *majority* of people who don't fit the mold. Perhaps that's okay in some pointless conversation about Cragley's bitchy co-workers (by the way, Cragley--take the high road and just do your job well; if your teammates are just being nasty, it will eventually come back to haunt them later), but when you try to apply them in real life, there's so much variation among individuals that the generalizations are useless from the start, and only serve to annoy people. I think this is the reason that management literature increasingly tends to reject the one-size-fits-all approach when it comes to managing and motivating people--it simply doesn't work.

-Leanne
 
OB1504
Posts: 4016
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 5:10 am

RE: Working With Women

Thu Feb 03, 2005 10:07 am

Airplay, this is for you:

 
airplay
Posts: 3369
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 1:58 am

RE: Working With Women

Thu Feb 03, 2005 10:48 am

Everything else comes across as terrifically patronizing.

I can certainly see how women could construe my comments that way. But let's remember, I was offering my opinion in the context of the original post. Let me rephrase it:

1) Women respect the hierarchical structure of the workplace and introduce valuable input while maintaining a pleasant homey workplace.

2) Women recognize the significance of life's little milestones. They are typically the ones who remember a co-workers birthday or other events that may not be immediately recognized as important to others.

3) Woman are not afraid to display emotions in visible and physical ways.

4) Women’s bodies are constantly changing. Nature bestows on women, the experience of puberty, the intimate connection to heavenly bodies, the miracle of childbirth and the grace to endure the trials of end of the childbearing years.

5) Although women have made great strides in recognition for their contributions to the world and society, our culture still largely regards their primary duty to the family as homemaker. Many women today still trudge home after 8 hours of work, only to struggle to put dinner on the table and ensure everyone has clean clothes to wear. There is scarce “me” time so small diversions are required throughout the day to restore sanity.

6) Many magazines and television shows that are aimed at a woman audience contain a great deal of gossip. Not just general stuff, but detailed serious dirt. And so what? Why not indulge in a little scandal once in awhile? Joan Rivers says its OK….and even a bit therapeutic.

7) Women are not afraid to introduce new ideas or bring new concepts to the table. Sometimes a project needs a major shake-up to invigorate it.

8) The development of the recognition of women and their role in our society must continue. It is important that none of the ground is lost in the struggle so many have suffered for.

I think this is the reason that management literature increasingly tends to reject the one-size-fits-all approach when it comes to managing and motivating people--it simply doesn't work.

That's right. But lets keep this in perspective. Its just some guy's opinon on the internet...

 Smile

 
aa61hvy
Posts: 13021
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 1999 9:21 am

RE: Working With Women

Thu Feb 03, 2005 10:53 am

Airplay-are you a single man?
 
airplay
Posts: 3369
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 1:58 am

RE: Working With Women

Thu Feb 03, 2005 10:56 am

Airplay-are you a single man?

Why? Is that a factor in your analysis?
 
aa61hvy
Posts: 13021
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 1999 9:21 am

RE: Working With Women

Thu Feb 03, 2005 11:04 am

I think a woman would have a hard time being in a relationship with you, especially with the kind of veiws you have.
 
airplay
Posts: 3369
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 1:58 am

RE: Working With Women

Thu Feb 03, 2005 11:23 am

I think a woman would have a hard time being in a relationship with you, especially with the kind of veiws you have.

What does that have to do with the topic? By the way, how do you even know I'm not a woman? And why pick me out to scold? In my opinion there are many more potentially offensive statements on this thread than mine...
 
777ER
Head Moderator
Posts: 10139
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2003 5:04 pm

RE: Working With Women

Thu Feb 03, 2005 11:23 am

cat fights are awesome, women have no limits when they are at war with one another Yip, its surprising what women or girls say when they are having a cat fight
 
aa61hvy
Posts: 13021
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 1999 9:21 am

RE: Working With Women

Thu Feb 03, 2005 11:29 am

Well Airplay is single...There is the biggest suprise ever  Insane
 
airplay
Posts: 3369
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 1:58 am

RE: Working With Women

Thu Feb 03, 2005 11:39 am

Well Airplay is single...There is the biggest suprise ever

Who said I was single? Is that what they're teaching you as a Psychology Major? To guess? I made no mention of my marital status nor do I intend to. Nor do I intend to mindlessly divuldge other personal information about myself.

Ever heard of identity theft AA61Hvy? Or were you just using a little "reverse psychology" to nudge me?

Tell me AA61Hvy, did you hate your father? Did you ever think of your mother in a sexual way? Can't remember? Perhaps you're just repressing your memories...your terrible terrible memories....

 Smile
 
aa61hvy
Posts: 13021
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 1999 9:21 am

RE: Working With Women

Thu Feb 03, 2005 11:48 am

I'm repressing all your posts..
 
lehpron
Posts: 6846
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2001 3:42 am

RE: Working With Women

Thu Feb 03, 2005 3:23 pm

>>"By the way, how do you even know I'm not a woman? And why pick me out to scold?"<<

Check ur profile, not even Ann Coulter would have those opinions about herself & he wasn't.

Geez, Airplay calm down; so Saxdiva raped your views, big deal.

Now you're attacking AA61hwy as a typical guy who's ego has been bruised so you prey on the weak. Big grin

[Edited 2005-02-03 07:32:23]
 
cragley
Topic Author
Posts: 397
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2004 6:09 pm

RE: Working With Women

Thu Feb 03, 2005 6:46 pm


I should have mentioned that I am a 27 year old gay guy.

I also work in a female dominated industry and have so for years.

As far as my work ethic. Both women have advised management that I am fast, efficient, have great knowledge and am good at my job.

Looking at the responses, I find it a little ironic that people indicated I am judgemental  Smile



N229: May I suggest you go back and read the threads again. I don;t talk through hatred, more of experience and frustration. No comments have been personal, but general.


 Smile/happy/getting dizzy



 
msllsmith
Posts: 387
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 3:25 am

RE: Working With Women

Thu Feb 03, 2005 8:59 pm

"I should have mentioned that I am a 27 year old gay guy."

So, what's your problem? They don't come up to your 'fashion fantasy'? You think you could wear it better? I worked for almost twenty years in a high fashion (women's) magazine..... the majority of the men were gay.... and we got along fabulously. Yo've gotten some pretty good advice in some of these responses..... I suggest you listen to them.

"As far as my work ethic. Both women have advised management that I am fast, efficient, have great knowledge and am good at my job."

Maybe you just really hate your job and not these women. What 's your beef? They don't go to the same clubs you do and you have no one to gossip with?

"Looking at the responses, I find it a little ironic that people indicated I am judgemental"

Honey, you're as judgemental as they come. These women probably howl over what a jerk you are when you're out of the office. Tell me, can you change the toner on the copy machine?

Well done Saxdiva!



 
cragley
Topic Author
Posts: 397
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2004 6:09 pm

RE: Working With Women

Thu Feb 03, 2005 9:13 pm


Hey you're getting a little personal here  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

And you haven;t even met me. Cool it a bit and lets be civil. I asked for some 'advice' not for someone to bite off my head.

And great choice of stereo typing there 'hun'.

Lets stick to basics and not get so personal. 50% of the planet is female so i am amazed that you think that any of you would consider that I was referring to you.

Have a nice day  Smile
 
msllsmith
Posts: 387
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 3:25 am

RE: Working With Women

Fri Feb 04, 2005 12:11 am

"And great choice of stereo typing there 'hun'."

You're welcome darling,.... it's one of those 'new and improved' features called 'cut and paste'.....  Big grin
 
SlamClick
Posts: 9576
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2003 7:09 am

RE: Working With Women

Fri Feb 04, 2005 12:52 am

"Hey you're getting a little personal here
And you haven;t even met me"


No, Cragley I think we have.

Out of the whole broad spectrum of your life experience you singled out this one issue to bring up here. Further, you did this with many condescending and insulting words.

A short list:
  • "possibly menopausal"

  • "definitely menopausal" (I've taken the liberty of correcting your spelling)

  • "get around them"

  • "they irritate me"

  • "uninteresting conversations"

  • "stupid mannerisms"

  • "unfunny jokes"

  • "old people/female wit"


  • A moment's thought and you would realize that each of those would be offensive if spoken to a person's face. That leads to the next obvious conclusion - because you say it behind their backs your post is, dare I say it? Gossip! So, having spent most of your typing efforts on insulting generalities, you are now surprised when women, and people who are comfortable with women think you are sexist.

    I will have to agree with you on one thing for sure.
    You said:
    "I am seriously out of ideas here guys."


     
    cragley
    Topic Author
    Posts: 397
    Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2004 6:09 pm

    RE: Working With Women

    Fri Feb 04, 2005 1:04 am





    Ok to ALL the people I *may* of offended with my bad day, I apologise if you took it personally. I was not talking about *you* but about where I was at.

    I will try and keep my thoughts to myself  Smile

    Forum or no Forum  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

     
    iakobos
    Posts: 3255
    Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2003 6:22 pm

    RE: Working With Women

    Fri Feb 04, 2005 2:25 am

    Seriously, a gay's life in tiny and conservative Liechtenstein must be a long long calvary, isn't it ?
     
    saxdiva
    Posts: 2332
    Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2004 6:51 pm

    RE: Working With Women

    Fri Feb 04, 2005 5:29 am

    Ho-hum.

    8) The development of the recognition of women and their role in our society must continue. It is important that none of the ground is lost in the struggle so many have suffered for.

    THAT would be a hell of a lot easier if we didn't have folks like you making all these ass-backwards assumptions.

    Nevertheless, if you want to keep your perspective firmly rooted in the 1950s, that's your prerogative. I'm over it.
     
    airplay
    Posts: 3369
    Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 1:58 am

    RE: Working With Women

    Fri Feb 04, 2005 9:50 am

    Okee Dokie....

    Thanks for coming out!

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