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skyservice_330
Topic Author
Posts: 1492
Joined: Sat Sep 16, 2000 6:50 am

U.S. Religious Right Sending Money To Canada

Tue Feb 08, 2005 12:50 am

"Religious right sends cash north
To fight same-sex marriage in Canada. U.S. groups taking credit for Bush re-election fund local allies' efforts to 'save the family' "

http://www.canada.com/montreal/montrealgazette/news/story.html?id=00c4a59d-899c-4695-a881-b9a6590f7c29
http://www.cfra.com/headlines/index.asp?cat=2&nid=24485
http://www.canada.com/national/nationalpost/news/story.html?id=105232d3-d41b-42ff-a7c4-6ed49581a18b

Also, I have 2 questions...

1) To my fellow Canucks, do we know yet when the actual vote will be taken in the House?
2)Something I don't understand and clarification is needed .... if Conservatives claim to be protectors of the family and lasting relationships etc. .. then shouldn't then by in favour of same-sex marriage? I mean it further strengthens the family unit and long lasting relationships. Or is this not ok because it is not "traditional?"

Love or hate please comment. Is this good/bad?
As always please be civilized.
 
PDPsol
Posts: 1226
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 5:09 am

RE: U.S. Religious Right Sending Money To Canada

Tue Feb 08, 2005 1:35 am

To my Northern Brothers and Sisters,

WATCH out for religious zealots claiming to support "faith and family"!

They will stop at nothing to introduce religious theology into your public policy and civil institutions. They have created division and fear among my fellow American citizens and wish to broaden their political influence in Canada.

Support your legislators in Ottawa in ratifying same-sex civil marriage and show the world Canada is a nation of freedom-loving people. Know millions of Americans are encouraged by your brave policy-makers and have the greatest admiration and affection for your beautiful land and people.

cheers from NYC,

PDPsol
 
Guest

RE: U.S. Religious Right Sending Money To Canada

Tue Feb 08, 2005 2:54 am

Nothing, and I mean nothing, has caused more hell and mayhem on this planet than organized religion and the blind zealots who adhere to its teachings.
No other 'realm of thought' and its subsequent defined and ingested doctrines produce more narrowminded, ignorant behaviour, and impart the ideals of hatred and segregation, not to mention superiority. All in the name of....take your pick.

I cannot believe nor comprehend the fact that men and women, today, utilize, take to heart and virtually literalize the 2,000 year old (subject to debate) writings of men who transposed their personal and collective geopolitical and sociological 'climate' onto paper. Speaking of our equal counterparts, women, I find it hard to fathom that, given the fact many religious sects literally look upon women as second (or third) class citizens, that women of our time make the choice to devote their faith to sects which are, for the most part, run and managed by the male chauvinistic pigs who inherited their mindset from the chauvinists who were themselves the genesis for these 'faiths'. The concept/theory that we have 'evolved' as a species is, for the most part, pure bullshit, as countless humans continue to allow for the ongoing retrograde to infiltrate their lives. All in the name of...again, take your pick.

Women, in many corners of this earth, in our own neighborhoods, are still oppressed, people of colour, beautiful colour, are judged and treated by their pigmentation, gay men and women are viewed as being sick, abnormal, and a product of evil ('Satan', anyone?)....ah yes, evolution.

'Evolution' is defined as a gradual process in which something changes into a different and usually more complex or better form. Nice in theory, on paper, but take a good look around you, folks. Aside from technological, medical and (in some countries) the advent of advanced human rights, the term evolution is in juxtapostion to where we as a planet find ourselves today in our own geopolitical climate. I think mankind has taken one ingredient from the above definition, and has become more complex, but is the end result better? My answer is a firm and decisive 'no'. In short, we as a species have come a long way, in regards to the time we have been on this planet; 'spiritually', we might as well count ourselves no further removed from the time of the Roman Empire. There's 'evolution' for you. Then again, seeing as how the USA has censored/oppressed the true teachings of evolution in their school systems ('Adam & Eve', anyone?) is more than a moot point. And the Darwin award goes to.....it's up for grabs.

An arguable point is the fact we are more sociologically enlightened than our ancestors. Are we indeed? I tend to think that we are, for the most part,
blinded by our technological achievments, and the fact that, via satellite TV and the internet we can be witness to horrific events on the planet, and be shocked an angered by them is misleading. Beacuse of technology, we as a species think we are more 'aware', and in that sense, we are. However, the very fact that it's not one thing after another, but the same damn thing over and over again is not only illuminating, it's rather sad. 'Evolution'? We haven't learned a damn thing pertaining to global human rights; we are literally still in the Dark Ages - various Church reformations through the centuries have done nothing to advance our mindset, but have in effect only served to create new obstacles, and to their political benefit, not ours. Then again, are the resluts of the reformations new? Me thinks not.

I shall not impart my (and many others) take on the questionable history of, for example, the Roman Catholic Church & the Vatican through the ages. That would take some time, and I am a firm believer that in order to be truly enlightened, we ourselves must take the initial and subsequent steps to educate ourselves on what is 'truth', otherwise, it's literally as if one is talking to the wall. I was born and raised a Roman Catholic - today I am as far away from its teachings as I will ever be. I have absolutely no intention or desire to return to that distorted realm, nor am I willing to validate the oppression, ignorance, and greed that constitutes the ingredients of 'Holy Headquarters', whose main goal is to figuratively and literally subjucate the masses, through the mass. Then again, subjucation has been the primary mandate of any and all organized religious sects, and the high cost of progression and advancement of the human race. There is nothing theological in their thinking, rather political fine tuning

The extreme religious right movement which has been underway in the United States for some time now (actually, it's always been there, yet we cannot single out the USA as this is truly a global affliction/sickness) has me truly wary and apprehensive. The far right movement is a pustule which has to be lanced and drained if we are to move forward, but the minds of men, once made up, are for the most part hard to penetrate and steer towards truth. By implementing this twisted 'school of thought' into American schools, and
impressionable children's minds, the far right are themselves subjucating and suffocating what is truth with what they truly believe in their own twisted minds is 'God's law', or rather, Their own interpretation and definition of their
'God' and 'his' teachings. We've come such a long way, no? Horrifying. It is extremely disturbing to witness what is going on south of the border, and, truth be told, here in Canada as well. There is nothing more inherently dangerous to mankind than 'blind faith' and censorship. Newflash: religious beliefs and doctrines are not absolute and written in stone - and their followers are, everyday, practicing blind faith in and of itself.

I am (as are countless others) an avid supporter of human rights everywhere and for all, equal rights for all. And that includes, of course, gay men and women with whom we have the honour and pleasure of sharing this earth with. I absolutely and without question support same sex marriage under our Canadian Charter of Rights, as it will impart equal rights to a fantastic group of people who have had to exist as second/third class citizens within our domain. How dare we, how DARE we decide who is equal, who is not. How dare we suppress/oppress a faction of our population based on their genetic code? YES, genetic code, and if you think or believe otherwise, then educate yourselves on this. How dare we seek a referendum to decide on equal rights for all? How dare we ask 'why should a gay couple be allowed to marry and be recognized as a unit by the law and society?' How dare we transpose our PERSONAL 'religious' beliefs into the mainstream and subjucate those who fail to fall within the boundaries of our distorted teachings? To me, this issue, this 'question' is not even open for argument, in a perfect world that is. But seeing the world for what it is, arguments have and will continue to abound over this simplistic issue of according equal rights to all.

Note: If gay men and women are denied status as equal citizens, then what does this say for the rest of us? As I've stated before, as long as the gay community continues to have their rights revoked, then so do the rest of us.
What does our 'decision' read 'judgement' on same sex marriage imply for our children, grandchildren and great-grandchildren, a number of whom will no doubt be gay humans themselves? Is our ignorance and apathy to be the conduit that will cast a dark shadow across future inhabitants of this planet?
How do we, how can we look our children and grandchildren in the eye and tell them that we do not view all human beings as equal, that we garner our beliefs and theories from books and text written thousands of years ago by men who themselves were constrained in terms of geographic and sociological narrow boundaries - their personal and collective ideaologies the product of the aformentioned. Ah yes, evolution.

Who was it, Stephen Harper and his cronies who had the ignorance and balls to state that gay marriage will lead to polygamy? This man and his followers are also pustules who need to be lanced. Can someone explain their twisted mindset to me? Yes, Stephen, as yoru 'God' so dictates, we're all going to hell on a handbasket should we have the audacity to allow others the very rights we enjoy and take for granted. All in the name of.....take your pick, there's plenty of demi-gods to go around.

And for the record, and to reiterate on a valid point made by many pro gay marriage supporters, the heterosexual community, while viewing same sex marriage as an affront to the constiution of marriage itself, had better take a good hard look in the mirror, as this faction of humans have done more than their fair share in mocking this 'sacrament' re divorces, affairs, broken homes, and even...yes, Mr. Harper, polygamy.

Skyservice330, I concur with your statement that allowing same sex marriages will in fact strengthen family ties and relationships. Contrary to what many ignorants 'straights' think, the sky is most certainly not going to fall around us should this long overdue law passed. Quite the opposite, the sky will clear for many, especially gay men and women, all of whom more than deserve to stand on the same ground and grounds as the rest of us.



"Like an unchecked cancer, hate corrodes the personality and eats away its vital unity. Hate destroys a man's sense of values & his objectivity. It causes him to describe the beautiful as ugly and the ugly as beautiful, and to confuse the true with the false and the false with the the true"
- Martin Luther King

"Segregation is the adultery of an illicit intercourse between injustice and immorality".
- Martin Luther King

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missles and misguided men"
- Martin Luther King


 
skyservice_330
Topic Author
Posts: 1492
Joined: Sat Sep 16, 2000 6:50 am

RE: U.S. Religious Right Sending Money To Canada

Tue Feb 08, 2005 3:15 am

Canadi>nBoy,

Welcome to my Respected Users list.

My biggest fear, as you mentioned above, is that I will have to (in the future) look my nephews, nieces, grandchildren etc. in the eye and explain to them that I lived through a time in Canada when we were given the opportunity to look upon ALL our citizens equally and we passed... furthermore the justification that I will have to give to them as to why ... because religion, not my religion, not their religion, not everybody's religion ... but the religion of a few was able to break the most important and sacred tenants of Canada ... the separation of church and state ... and through this were able to block the rational thought of our legislators and create a Canada where everyone is not viewed as equals.


"If you want to judge a civilized society, look at its treatment of its minorities."
 
Guest

RE: U.S. Religious Right Sending Money To Canada

Tue Feb 08, 2005 4:48 am

Skyservice330,

I hope and trust that, one day in the not too far future, mankind will look back upon these days of ours and shake their heads with wonder as to how narrowminded we were as a society re equal rights. We ourselves do not have to look back far in time to make the same observation re African Amercian rights in the United States during the turbulent 1960's. I have hope in the younger generations that live today, IF they can segregate their own minds vis a vis organized religious doctrine vs humanity and indeed, humility.

I submit for your perusal some insightful and invigorating quotes uttered by these wise men of yesteryear. I cannot, nor will I attempt to articulate their thoughts any better than they, the words impart their wondrous resonance with me. It's not mere coincidence that I include these quotes from some of America's founding fathers. Hopefully the irony will not escape anyone. The superlative writings of Thomas Paine are amongst my favourites.


"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved - the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!"
- John Adams in a letter to Thomas Jefferson


"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State."
-Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptist Association on Jan. 1, 1802.


"Our civil rights have no dependance on our religious opinions, any more than our opinions in physics or geometry"
- Thomas Jefferson, 'Statute for Religious Freedom' - 1779.


"Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned, yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity [of opinion]. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites."
-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia (1781-85).


"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason."
- Benjamin Franklin, 'Poor Richard', 1758


"Religion I found to be without any tendency to inspire, promote, or confirm morality, serves principally to divide us and make us unfriendly to one another."
- Benjamin Franklin


"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."
- James Madison


"Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and tortuous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we call it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize [hu]mankind."
- Thomas Paine, 'The Age of Reason'


"Of all the tyrannies that affect mankind, tyranny in religion is the worst."
-Thomas Paine


"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit."
-Thomas Paine, 'The Age of Reason'


"Persecution is not an original feature in any religion; but it is always the strongly marked feature of all law-religions, or religions established by law."
-Thomas Paine, 'The Rights of Man', 1791, ed P.S. Foner, 1945.


"As priestcraft was always the enemy of knowledge, because priestcraft supports itself by keeping people in delusion and ignorance, it was consistent with its policy to make the acquisition of knowledge a real sin."
-Thomas Paine, 'Of the Religion of Deism.'



 
NumberTwelve
Posts: 1393
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2004 8:57 pm

RE: U.S. Religious Right Sending Money To Canada

Tue Feb 08, 2005 5:02 am

I fear, the Religious Right isn't only sending money to Canada but wants to get influence in Canada and in different other countries all over the world - also in Arabic countries. They are happy about Iraq War because they have the chance to stop Islamic brain washing - and start Christian Brain washing.

And in my opinion this "Christians" are not only Christians but also Right wing extremes and sects like Scientology "Church" - they try to get money from people and try to control them.

The US should be careful not that the Right wing Religious are the pestilence for them. Their influence is ridiculous, it's not good for a free and open minded society.

Religions are great - if they are open minded and have tollerance. But I highly doubt the right wing brain washed people allow tollerance and open minded people.
 
Guest

RE: U.S. Religious Right Sending Money To Canada

Tue Feb 08, 2005 5:10 am

"They (religious right) are happy about Iraq War because they have the chance to stop Islamic brain washing - and start Christian Brain washing."

Ah yes, their own particular brand of weapons of mass destruction.

"it's not good for a free and open minded society."

It's not as open & free as one would wish or think. The ranks are closing, and closing faster than one would imagine.

"Religions are great - if they are open minded and have tollerance"
Oxymoron, my friend. Oxymoron.

"But I highly doubt the right wing brain washed people allow tollerance and open minded people."

Such is the creed, indeed, the inherent danger of organized religion.



 
NumberTwelve
Posts: 1393
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2004 8:57 pm

RE: U.S. Religious Right Sending Money To Canada

Tue Feb 08, 2005 5:19 am

[email protected] Boy, I believe in Atheism but don't think religion is too bad.

I don't know how religions will be celebrated in Canada but in my opinion in Germany we really have tollerance and open minded people in church (especially in evangelic church).

Anyway I believe that religions often have been used (and still are used) to start wars but it's not the religion who is guilty but the people who interpret the religions (and there are no exemptions, people from all religions misuse the religions).

It's sad that this can happen in so-called civilised countries. That's a shame.
 
PacificWestern
Posts: 517
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 3:30 am

RE: U.S. Religious Right Sending Money To Canada

Tue Feb 08, 2005 5:27 am

Canadi>nBoy,

Welcome to my Respected Users list.


Skyservice330,


Welcome to my Respected Users list.


Both of you are fine and intelligent examples how this country ought to be in terms of equal rights...not special rights....EQUAL RIGHTS. Thank you both for your input on this very, very divisive issue.
 
Guest

RE: U.S. Religious Right Sending Money To Canada

Tue Feb 08, 2005 5:33 am

"I believe in Atheism but don't think religion is too bad."

Don't for a second underestimate the power and subsequent damage of organized religion and the grip on man that it indeed has, and unfortunately, shall continue to have. Cause & effect. Man is a creature of habit, and habits, as we all know die hard. Personally, my own 'religion' if you will, is simplicity in itself: love, tolerance, acceptance, peace and equality. Period. No more, no less.

"it's not the religion who is guilty but the people who interpret the religions."
I respectfully disagree. One only has to research indepth as to why these 'religions' were created, and the men who were behind the genesis of said faiths. That said, certain creeds found within faiths are admirable, when taken on their own. However, they are purposely 'mixed' and incorporated into the political agenda that lurks on and just below the surface. I do agree re interpretation, and I could fill a page here, but I digress. Literalism vis a vis
organized sects is once again, in this period of time, at an all time high, as is the storm itself. In regards to the fundemantalist right wing movement in the USA - 'Something wicked this way comes.'

"It's sad that this can happen in so-called civilised countries. That's a shame."
Until the day this planet unites and practices the 'religion' of unity and equality (don't hold your breath), then yes, it is indeed a shame.

 
Guest

RE: U.S. Religious Right Sending Money To Canada

Tue Feb 08, 2005 5:41 am

PacificWestern, merci Monsieur for your kind words.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy I am proud to state that I and many, many others stand firm on the right side of this issue, one that, to reiterate, should not even be open for discussion or debate.
 
lehpron
Posts: 6846
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2001 3:42 am

RE: U.S. Religious Right Sending Money To Canada

Tue Feb 08, 2005 5:44 am

If any individual can agrue against gay-marriage without refering to religion or tradition, then I will listen very carefully and even consider supporting the cause.

However, most are ignorant and intolerant ans just plain do not want to have anything to do with gay's or to ever hear the word and just want us all to be like them, i.e. thumpers.

This is why I usually do not buy anything they say, it is as if they are using it as a crutch. If they could argue againt gay-marriage from the heart, without religious/traditional conviction AND without draggin children into it: I'll listen.

They need to be serious, they can not scapeoat. If they do not like the, as they claim, "gay practice", that is not a reason (in fact it's an opinion) remotely justifiable to ban anything. Opinions should not drive someone's life, reasons do.

As long as one have strong feelings about something, objectivity is impossible; one needs to calm down and focus. Remember, the point of any discussion is not to be right, it's to get your point across. But if you are filled with conviction, you cannot think clearly to get your point across and thus get angry because people get your wrong and react accordingly.

Don't put your beliefs ahead of your brain, they are there to keep you stable not to run you!

I hope somebody read this...............
 
Guest

RE: U.S. Religious Right Sending Money To Canada

Tue Feb 08, 2005 5:56 am

Lephron, I read your post, and concur with your statements.

"But if you are filled with conviction, you cannot think clearly to get your point across and thus get angry because people get your wrong and react accordingly."

My friend, conviction is what propels us forward and stirs us to fight for what we believe in. Conviction is our fuel in order to move ahead and perhaps create a better world, a better tomorrow. Conviction is not to be confused with emotion. The greatest minds this world has produced would not have made or left their mark, their legacy, if you will, without conviction.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

 
ConcordeBoy
Posts: 16852
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 8:04 am

RE: U.S. Religious Right Sending Money To Canada

Tue Feb 08, 2005 6:10 am

What does our 'decision' read 'judgement' on same sex marriage imply for our children, grandchildren and great-grandchildren, a number of whom will no doubt be gay humans themselves?

Bingo.

You've hit on the hottest of hot-button issues that UltraRightWingers cannot even tolerate the thought of.

"Won't happen in my family" is the motto and creed of these types, and I pity the child who's born there into (I've also been that child).

Normally, I'd never wish the gay lifestyle upon any child... sad, but true. Hopefully, there'll be a future when this won't be the case. That said: I often pray for nothing more than any male child with the name "Santorum" to be proven nothing less than the rebirth of Carmen Miranda  Big thumbs up




Stephen Harper and his cronies who had the ignorance and balls to state that gay marriage will lead to polygamy?

Bill O'Reilly's been towing that line the most vocally as of late.

Droll that polygamy was not only allowed, but encouraged/closely-regulated by the same books of the OT that condemn homosexual acts.
 
lehpron
Posts: 6846
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2001 3:42 am

RE: U.S. Religious Right Sending Money To Canada

Tue Feb 08, 2005 6:42 am

>>"Conviction is not to be confused with emotion"<<

I concur, I have the tendency to do that a lot. But even those two can be split, there is good emotionalism and good conviction and vice versa for both. Technically, and historically, I would have qualified all of them as extremes -- of which is followed in my mind by a negative conotation.

I know myself to be a majority of extremes, do not know yet what though, could be a combination of things.

Life progresses (subjectivity is...) when people stand up for their beliefs, this is true in any damn direction. When people do not stand up for their beliefs, general life can stand still. For some people to stand up for what they believe in life may in fact regress -- I would suppose that these are the 'religious right' in this case.

But to them, a ban on gay marriage IS progress, the ability to maintain one's own self, so to speak, they have chosen to maintain their view of the world. I'm sure OBL thought 9/11 was progress...I know, I'm just trying to make a point: progess is subjective and conviction makes it possible.

Belief is so damn powerful, what it can make you do, shit... Wow!

Thank you Canadi>nBoy, you've put in a very complex mood. Now I can go to my Electrical Engineering II class with a really open mind, cuz I hate the stuff. Big grin
 
flybyguy
Posts: 1421
Joined: Sun Jun 27, 2004 12:52 pm

RE: U.S. Religious Right Sending Money To Canada

Tue Feb 08, 2005 7:49 am

Organized religion in my eyes is good. To those who follow it, organized religion teaches virtue and moral decency... (love thy neighbor as thyself... etc. etc.)

It is not right to flame the Church because of a few self-motivated zealots like Pat Robertson and televangelists galore. Just like it is not right to pass judgement on a whole community of people by referencing the act of an individual. Such a judgement would be prejudicial.

Religiously, I feel marriage is to be between a man and a woman as do many people who adhere to scripture. I am not opposed to equal rights to gay people. If it is truly equal rights that gays seek then they have an ally in me.
However, I am STRICTLY opposed to religious consecration of unions between gays. Such an act will destroy the very foundations upon which the Christian Church was made.

I depend on and trust God fully with my life and it's direction. That thought has brought me a high level peace and personal security. Without religion, without God I would have been a very broken person, considering my life's strifes. I was introduced to deeper faith about 4 years ago and since then have had no regrets.

I fear, the Religious Right isn't only sending money to Canada but wants to get influence in Canada and in different other countries all over the world - also in Arabic countries. They are happy about Iraq War because they have the chance to stop Islamic brain washing - and start Christian Brain washing.

This is a very closed-minded statement. Are people not allowed to believe in what they wish NumberTwelve? No one put a gun to my head for me to become remain a Christian, I choose to be a Christian as do many who enter the Church. I cannot understand why people who are against religion call the religious "fools". If you don't need God, then more power to you.

It may seem that the Christian Church is only against gay marriage and nothing in heterosexual marriages, but that is false. The Church is against adulterous affairs and other licentious behaviors in heterosexual marriages, is universally appalled by Hollywood's nuptial farces, polygamy etc. Those of religious persuasion find great comfort in seeking religious marriage counseling should the need arise. Such measures are promoted vigorously within Churches to stem the deluge of divorces plaguing our country.

Time and time again I see people flame religion with arguments riddled with misconceptions. I hope that one day people can get past their overwhelming hatred of religion as a whole and find themselves a lasting peace.
 
PacificWestern
Posts: 517
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 3:30 am

RE: U.S. Religious Right Sending Money To Canada

Tue Feb 08, 2005 8:57 am

Evelyn Waugh once wrote, "Religion is a hobby which some people profess and which others do not."

I am curious to know what exactly is THE Christian Church? The Church of Rome? Lutheran? The Church of England? The United Church? Presbyterian? Do tell, which of these is the TRUE Christian Church???

As for the "foundations" on which the Christian Church was created....obviously such things as peace, fellowship, goodwill towards others, love, and acceptance of imperfections are not part of the foundation of the Christian Church...according to the venom spewed on some of these threads.

Those of religious persuasion find great comfort in seeking religious marriage counseling should the need arise.

Thank you for such sage words! The next time a friend of mine talks to me about her husband, a man who is an ARDENT member of a Christian Church, and happens to beat the living shite out of her on a regular basis, I'll just respond, "Honey, no worries. I've heard it from a good authority that should the need arise, your husband of religious persuasion will find great comfort in seeking religous marriage counselling. Oh, and here's an icepack for your eye in the meantime."

 
flybyguy
Posts: 1421
Joined: Sun Jun 27, 2004 12:52 pm

RE: U.S. Religious Right Sending Money To Canada

Tue Feb 08, 2005 11:17 am

It is obvious that no one of religious persuasion can speak to you Thank you for such sage words! The next time a friend of mine talks to me about her husband, a man who is an ARDENT member of a Christian Church, and happens to beat the living shite out of her on a regular basis, I'll just respond, "Honey, no worries. I've heard it from a good authority that should the need arise, your husband of religious persuasion will find great comfort in seeking religious marriage counseling. Oh, and here's an icepack for your eye in the meantime."

I don't know what to say... I'm sorry to hear about your friend. I never said that divorces should be illegal. And your friend's husband is NOT being a good Christian by striking his wife.

There are many good Christians all around the world that care for the poor and rejected day after day only for you to impugn their honor with an example that you KNOW does not fit the average Christian.

PacificWestern, no matter what I say, I may never convince you of anything positive of the Church, because of your hardened heart.

 
pilottj
Posts: 274
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 1:23 pm

RE: U.S. Religious Right Sending Money To Canada

Tue Feb 08, 2005 11:26 am

Like my good man George Carlin says...

'Christians are against abortions and homosexuals...well who is going to have less abortions than homosexuals??, you think they(religious right & homosexual community) would make natural allies!....Leave these f*cking people alone for christ sakes!!'

CHeers
TJ
 
PHXFLY
Posts: 81
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2005 10:11 am

RE: U.S. Religious Right Sending Money To Canada

Tue Feb 08, 2005 11:51 am

'organized religion teaches virtue and moral decency... (love thy neighbor as thyself... etc. etc.) '

But you don't need religion to teach those things. Virtue and morals are more subjective than absolute. I don't need religion to tell me how to live my life. I don just fine without it.

Religiously, I feel marriage is to be between a man and a woman as do many people who adhere to scripture. I am not opposed to equal rights to gay people. If it is truly equal rights that gays seek then they have an ally in me.
However, I am STRICTLY opposed to religious consecration of unions between gays. Such an act will destroy the very foundations upon which the Christian Church was made.'

Gay people aren't knocking down the church doors asking to be married. Churches aren't required by law to provide wedding services and couples aren't required to be married by a priest, preacher, rabbi, or minister. You can get married by a judge, a justice of the peace or anyone that is licensed to perform weddings. You can get married pretty much anywhere you want by anyone licensed to perform weddings. Marriage in the US is civil in nature and not religious.

'depend on and trust God fully with my life and it's direction. That thought has brought me a high level peace and personal security. Without religion, without God I would have been a very broken person, considering my life's strifes. I was introduced to deeper faith about 4 years ago and since then have had no regrets.'

Again, not everyone needs religion to find those things. Many people are happy and content without religion in their lives.

'This is a very closed-minded statement. Are people not allowed to believe in what they wish NumberTwelve? No one put a gun to my head for me to become remain a Christian, I choose to be a Christian as do many who enter the Church. I cannot understand why people who are against religion call the religious "fools". If you don't need God, then more power to you.'

Of course you are allowed to believe what you want but when you try to force your beliefs on others, that's a problem. The Christian right in this country wants everything to be about them, their laws, and their beliefs and to hell with anyone that doesn't agree with them. They think America is a Christian nation and they want a theocracy, not a democracy.

'It may seem that the Christian Church is only against gay marriage and nothing in heterosexual marriages, but that is false. The Church is against adulterous affairs and other licentious behaviors in heterosexual marriages, is universally appalled by Hollywood's nuptial farces, polygamy etc.'

You do know that the divorce rate is higher in the so-called "red states" like Texas and Alabama that claim to be more religious than in places like Mass. , NY, and California where church attendance is less. Don't blame that on Hollywood.
 
PacificWestern
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RE: U.S. Religious Right Sending Money To Canada

Tue Feb 08, 2005 12:49 pm

There are many good Christians all around the world that care for the poor and rejected day after day only for you to impugn their honor with an example that you KNOW does not fit the average Christian.

I do not think that YOU Flybyguy ought to tell ME what I know or do not know.
And do explain what is meant by an "average" Christian?? Many self-proclaimed Christians on airliners.net do not consider themselves to be average anything. Rather they feel themselves quite superior to anyone who does not subscribe to their own particular brand of worship.

PacificWestern, no matter what I say, I may never convince you of anything positive of the Church, because of your hardened heart.

Again, I will ask you...which Church exactly are you referencing? The Church of Rome? Lutheran? The Church of England? The United Church? Presbyterian?

I do not condemn you for your faith in God Flybyguy. Far from it. However, I do take exception for you using your faith to judge and condescend to a segment of society of which I'm sure you know very little beyond the sensational tittle tattle you are fed by sources whom you choose to trust.

And as for my hardened heart....well, people are not born with hardened hearts, but rather they are forged. Forged perhaps by people with attitudes similar to yours.

I think you are a good person, and hopefully by God's standards, a good Christian. But you show an astonishing lack of life experience.

 
flybyguy
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RE: U.S. Religious Right Sending Money To Canada

Tue Feb 08, 2005 12:54 pm

You do know that the divorce rate is higher in the so-called "red states" like Texas and Alabama that claim to be more religious than in places like Mass. , NY, and California where church attendance is less.

I'm actually quite surprised at this fact... I'm curious as to why this is the case.
Any feedback, Phxfly will be greatly appreciated.
 
airplay
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RE: U.S. Religious Right Sending Money To Canada

Tue Feb 08, 2005 12:57 pm

I compare these groups to the KKK. The "Klan" is a "christian" group that claims God never meant for cultures and races to mix. They therefore impose their intolerance on anyone they can reach using any means they can.

The Knights of Columbus, Focus on the Family and their fuhrer
Big Jimmy Dobson are just a bunch of extreme, intolerant idiots who like to kid themselves that homosexuality is a myth. They can't accept that it has been around since Adam and Eve....or is it Adam and Steve.

They think that they can eradicate it if they use their resources. All they will acheive if successful is to sweep it under the rug. Out of sight, out of mind.

Pull your head out of your ass Jim....
 
User avatar
yyz717
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RE: U.S. Religious Right Sending Money To Canada

Tue Feb 08, 2005 1:50 pm

The US religious right likely won't have much impact on this upcoming "free" vote in the House of Commons. A recent poll of MP's (of which a majority of the 308 (ie, 155) are needed to pass the coming proposed legislation) show that the vote will be close. 139 MP's have confirmed they will vote in favour. About 100 against, and the remaining 69 or so are undecided.

About 25 of the 99 Conservative MP's are undecided (including Belinda Stronach) while only 2 Conservative MP's have indicated they will vote in favour. The divisions within the Liberal Party are said to the strongest.

Although I am an active member of the Conservatives, I am fully in favour of gay marriage as are many Conservatives. I'm not happy with Harper's stand but he is allowing his MP's full freedom to vote as they see fit.

I predict the same-sex legislation will pass with a narrow majority (perhaps 160-145) with votes for and against within all 4 parties.

I compare these groups to the KKK. The "Klan" is a "christian" group that claims God never meant for cultures and races to mix. They therefore impose their intolerance on anyone they can reach using any means they can.

Ahhhh terrific.  Yeah sure Airplay comparing US social conservatives to the KKK. What a ridiculous thing to say.




 
LHMark
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RE: U.S. Religious Right Sending Money To Canada

Tue Feb 08, 2005 2:10 pm

I don't see how the responsibility for upholding the Church falls upon the shoulders of same-sex couples.

Cultures are malleable, and ours is changing now. The church has adapted before, it will do so again.
 
jpetekyxmd80
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RE: U.S. Religious Right Sending Money To Canada

Tue Feb 08, 2005 2:27 pm

Bottom line is that these nuts can justify anything in the name of faith. They are dangerous and a threat to every freedom loving person.

And i joined the canadi>nboy respected users club, great post man.
 
SFOMEX
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RE: U.S. Religious Right Sending Money To Canada

Tue Feb 08, 2005 3:32 pm

It's funny to read your posts guys. Some of you, "freedom loving person(s)" as JpetekYXMD80 likes to describe himself, don't hesitate to bash and insult religion, religious people and religious denominations. Indeed it's a calling-names fest.

If I used the "f" word in any of my posts regarding gays, I'd get deleted and maybe suspended. Yet, words as nuts, zealots, narrowminded, ignorant, pustules (a nice one..), and so on are freely used to call people who happen to have a faith.

That's the way to go guys. You know why last november YOU lost every single election regarding gay marriage? Even in Oregon? Because of your arrogance and delusional moral superiority. As you have a right to demand gay marriage other people have the right to fight for only heterosexual marriage. Get it? The same fu***ng right! Get real for a moment and realize that you have to win hearts and minds of the very same people you despise. Your opponents have God (or at least they want to believe that) at their side. Who is at your side? You may give a rat ass about Him, but for the vast, VAST majority of people you need to win this, God is an essential part of their lives.

Gosh, I support gay rights and civil unions, but sometimes I understand why people are fed up with your "gay marriage" crap.
 
jpetekyxmd80
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RE: U.S. Religious Right Sending Money To Canada

Wed Feb 09, 2005 12:17 am

Some of you, "freedom loving person(s)" as JpetekYXMD80 likes to describe himself, don't hesitate to bash and insult religion, religious people and religious denominations.

Er...I am Catholic, SFOMEX. By using the term nuts I am referring to those who push their faith to discriminate and govern others as was the point of this thread. Please dont make assumptions about people, especially when you use them as poster children for your nonexistant points.
 
daedaeg
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RE: U.S. Religious Right Sending Money To Canada

Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:06 am

People are saying that Christians are forcing their religion on others. I think the Left is forcing their values on the rest of us. Why should we be forced to re-define marriage? Sorry, I didn't get that memo. Great posts SFOMEX and Flybyguy.
 
Guest

RE: U.S. Religious Right Sending Money To Canada

Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:13 am

"Ahhhh terrific. Airplay comparing US social conservatives to the KKK. What a ridiculous thing to say."

Is it, Neil? Is it really? I'm not so sure I can say that's entirely untrue and without merit. There are parallels, and they are quite disconcerting.


"Cultures are malleable, and ours is changing now."

As it always has, and will always continue to do so, for better or for worse....
pardon the ironic pun. Let's hope that we are truly on the edge of an enlightened cultural awakening.

"The church has adapted before, it will do so again."

And this, this is the achilles heel of the church. The only reason they have 'adapted', and will continue to do so is in the name of survival, as it would appear the masses progress quicker than they. Then again, the Catholic Church has certainly not adapted itself to be a viable entity in the 21rst Century, that is for those who have moved on and wish for a better world.


"It's funny to read your posts guys. Some of you, "freedom loving person(s)" as JpetekYXMD80 likes to describe himself, don't hesitate to bash and insult religion, religious people and religious denominations. Indeed it's a calling-names fest."

No, SFOMEX, it's a call to arms against the negative, damaging dogmatic rhetoric that has been preached by the collective organized man-made faiths for centuries. The scar tissue, the residue, is evident among many of the docile sheep. It's about calling an ace an ace, and a spade a spade. Moreover, it's about truth. It's about justice, and it's about trying, attempting to create a better world for us, our children and all those who will follow after us. Many of us have woken up and seen the collateral damage caused by faiths throughout this planet, and we've had enough. It's about removing the cobwebs, rose coloured glasses and shackles that have held mankind hostage for far too long. The only thing we so-call 'hate' are those archaic minds who are themselves the conduits for hate, segregation, racism and discrimination.

"If I used the "f" word in any of my posts regarding gays, I'd get deleted and maybe suspended. Yet, words as nuts, zealots, narrowminded, ignorant, pustules (a nice one..), and so on are freely used to call people who happen to have a faith."

Having a 'faith' is one thing. Possessing negative traits which only serve to
constrict and deny others, therby creating a retrograde in regards to civil rights is quite another issue altogether. Names? We have plenty more. Would you care to hear them? So glad you liked the term 'pustule'. I rather liked that myself, and do feel it conveyed my thoughts and ideals perfectly, especially in regards to Mr. Harper and co., thank you.

"As you have a right to demand gay marriage.."

It should be the mandate of all to demand equal rights for all.

"other people have the right to fight for only heterosexual marriage."

Wrong. You and your archaic kind have absolutely no right whatsoever to fight for and demand non-equal rights amongst men and women who have had the fortune or misfortune to be born with a genetic code that conflicts with the horrific man made dogma that has been fed to you and your kind. As I stated before, look back in time just a tad and review and assess the racial battle of African Americans in the 60's. Their own genetic code enabled them to be the target of despicable and inhumane hatred amongst many whites.....especially in the 'Bible Belt' of the U.S southwest, where, if memory serves me correctly, many so-called 'Christians' made and continue to make their home. And correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe I am, did not the priests, preachers and the like that stood at the pulpits in these 'houses of God' directly and indirectly instruct their respective flocks to support the oppression and segregation of the Black community? They claimed to be houses of worship, of the 'divine', where all were welcomed, but 'God' forbid if a person of colour dared to infiltrate their sacred ranks. And this, this, is 'Religion' for you to embrace and uphold. Blacks were beaten to death, shot,
spit at, all because they carried, again, a genetic code that made them
'different' from the white flocks, who, again, in turn received absolution for their horrific actions straight from the pulpit, from the preachers who claimed to be so commanded by 'God' to do so.


"One day the South will know that when these disinherited children of God sat down at lunch counters, or dared to walk down streets with their heads held high, they were in reality standing up for the best in the American dream and the most sacred values in our Judaeo-Christian heritage, and thusly, carrying our whole nation back to those great wells of democracy which were dug deep by the founding fathers in the formulation of the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence."
-Martin Luther King, Jr. Letter from Birmingham Jail (April 1963)



Recall the placards carried by the 'Christians' in their quest for segregation,
oppression and moral, genetic superiority:
'God Hates Niggers' and the like. (My apologies to people of colour here for this horrific word used).

Recall the placards carried in anti-Gay protests by the 'Christians' in their quest for oppression and moral, genetic superiority:
'God Hates Faggots', and the like. (My apologies to gay persons here for this
horrific word used).

Extremist? Of course. Universal in the collective, respective religious communities? Of course not. But one has to wonder and question where the
faction of these groups received their direct or indirect motivation.

"The literalism of Religion will be its undoing".

This is NOT to say that such horrific signage was written, carried or condoned by ALL Christians and people of faith. That would be grossly unfair to say it was and is the case. I'm not that stupid or naive.


We've come a long way, baby.

Examples of oppression through history abound, and are not exclusive to the Black and Gay communities. All are without question fueled by 'faith' - their respective churches being the catalysts - 'spreading the word of love and acceptance...as long as that particular brand of faith is the one accepted without question. You and your 'church' have no right to spread your gospels of hatred and oppression. And who may I ask commands you to do so? Your all-loving 'God'? Is your crusade against your fellow man in the name of this divine entity? No, it's in the name of you, and all who stand beside you. Your words only serve to confirm the fact of what exactly organized religion stands for. Do I 'hate' that? Yes, with every bone in my body, I despise that.

"That's the way to go guys. You know why last november YOU lost every single election regarding gay marriage? Even in Oregon? Because of your arrogance and delusional moral superiority."

Well, well, well. And here we have the proverbial cross calling the fabulously designed kettle black. Arrogance & delusional moral superiority? Got a mirror handy? Better yet, my friend, look no further than your nearest coven...excuse me..church or prayer group. Arrogance and moral superiority are without a doubt two words branded onto the figurative crest which hangs on the door of any house of worship and faith.

"Get real for a moment and realize that you have to win hearts and minds of the very same people you despise."

Quite the challenge, my friend, considering how brain-washed the vast majority of them are. And I know what I speak of, as I myself am a deserter of the Roman Catholic cult, headed by Vatican Inc. Oh, speaking of which, I do find it more than amusing that, for centuries, countless gay men and women have taken refuge in the Catholic church as ordained priests and nuns. The numbers boggle the mind. A whole different animal is the horrific and widespread sexual abuse of children by countless priests, the result being that Vatican Inc. has literally swept as many incidents under the rug as possible, by merely moving the accused from one parish to another. DON'T talk to me about moral superiority, my friend. This same Church has the audacity to condemn and deny rights to the very same people who have populated their ranks (many in positions of high power within the Vatican) for eons.

"Your opponents have God (or at least they want to believe that) at their side. Who is at your side?"

Those whose values and morals encompass and embrace equality, and accept all without question or judgement. Those who yearn for peace and acceptance without the hindrance of acute politicized scripture and text written long ago, and belongs in that era, not this one. We do not merely 'tolerate' those who are 'different', as that term in and of itself does not imply absolute recognition and acceptance. Those who follow their own particular brand of 'faith', that being true brotherhood.

As a straight man, I am at the side of gay men and women, as are countless heterosexuals. I stand beside them, for I believe in their quest, their right for equality, for their denial of rights as human beings is my own.

"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
-Martin Luther King, Jr.

"You may give a rat ass about Him, but for the vast, VAST majority of people you need to win this, God is an essential part of their lives."

I deeply care about peace. I deeply care about love. I deeply care about the quality of life that some enjoy and take for granted, yet is denied to many others. I freely admit that I cannot fully empathize with a person of colour, or a person of same-sex orientation, nor will I pretend to even attempt to do so. I don't know what it is like to be hated, spat upon, ridiculed, physically assualted, despised and ostracized for merely being 'different'. I don't know what it's like to be treated like a second or third class citizen. But I certainly recognize and respond to human pain, oppression and suffering, whether it be individual or collective. As fellow human being, I care deeply enough to stand by them and support them, not in the name of 'God', but in the name of humanity.

 
daedaeg
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RE: U.S. Religious Right Sending Money To Canada

Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:31 am

Canadianboy stop taking Dr. Mr. Luther Kings words and the struggles of the Civil Rights Movement to further your own personal politcal agenda. There is no comparison. Gays are not oppressed, they weren't hosed down, they don't have to sit on the back of the bus, not allowed to vote or use separate water fountains. You can not identify with my grandparent's past struggles. The Black Church is tired of your movement using their historic struggles for personal gain. You do realize that Dr. King was a Christian minister and most certainly would not condone same-sex marriage. I'm all for tolerance and equality, but it is not your right to redefine marriage. Period
 
Guest

RE: U.S. Religious Right Sending Money To Canada

Wed Feb 09, 2005 2:27 am

"Canadianboy stop taking Dr. Mr. Luther Kings words and the struggles of the Civil Rights Movement to further your own personal politcal agenda. There is no comparison"

First and foremost, Daedaeg, this is not my own personal political agenda, far from it. Secondly, I beg to differ re comparisons with the Black struggle, then and most certainly on-going. The parallels are quite obvious to myself and others.

"Gays are not oppressed"
Really? That is indeed news to me and to the gay community the world over. Your President, for example, wishes to, how did he put it, 'codify' the American constitution in order to ensure gay men and women do not stand as equals with their straight counterparts. That said, we cannot exclude other nations and their governing bodies from the oppressive factor which exists and flourishes.

"they weren't hosed down, they don't have to sit on the back of the bus, not allowed to vote or use separate water fountains"

They have, Daedaeg, and continue to be verbally harrassed, beaten, spat upon, killed (I recall that poor gay young man in the mid west, years back, who was beaten for hours, chained/tied to a fence and left to die, which he did. His name escapes me. Does anyone know his name? . Many gay hate related crimes go unreported, Daedaeg, so it is suspect that the numbers and frequency are higher than are imagined or supposed. Oppression, ignorance and hatred knows many faces and forms.

"The Black Church is tired of your movement using their historic struggles for personal gain."

The Black Church has read these posts? News to me. I am 'using' their historic struggles, again, Daedaeg, not for personal gain, and this is the last time I shall dignify that ignorant comment with a response. I am 'using' the Black struggle as an example, as I could pick and choose ANY struggle throoughout history to, again, illuminate the parallels. There is a recognized pattern, a template which pertains to oppression, no matter what the targeted group or time in history.

And personally, I and others are ourselves growing rather tired of the religious element which is prevalent in anti-gay arguments. However, being a realist, I am fully aware of the fact that there is no other element which exists in the minds and mindset of those who are so opposed. As someone in this thread stated, he would very much like to hear anti-gay rights arguments which do not incorporate religious dogma. So too would I like to hear them.

"You do realize that Dr. King was a Christian minister and most certainly would not condone same-sex marriage."

I am fully aware of who Dr. King was, Daedaeg, thank you. I need not be reminded of or educated on where the good man stood re religious ideals. However, as stated, I recognize and identify the common elements which pertain to both issues, and the superlative wording, expressed by Dr. King are both viable and pertinent, thus they may be allowed to be transposed for benefit of argument. The resonance of said words are compliant with the current issue/debate of same-sex marriage/rights. Also, I have transposed the quotes to allow for a historical, chronological 'bridge' to be constructed, and to illuminate the relevant irony in which the words and wording contain, again, in direct conjunction with the same sex issue at hand.

"I'm all for tolerance and equality"
With 'supporters' such as yourself, who needs opponents?

"but it is not your right to redefine marriage. Period"
I beg to differ. It is indeed my right and the collective right of all who do in fact oppose this archaic, religious based oppressive action taken against gay men and women. That it exists in its present form is without question the antithesis of a viable and cohesive democratic infrastructure. It is indeed our 'right' to argue for the institution of marriage to be defined whereas no group(s) of people are purposely and forcefully denied access to and enjoyment of said institution as is, and should be their individual and collective right, not only under the auspices of the Canadian Charter of Rights, but any legal and binding document that defines the rights and liberties of any nation. And it is indeed our right to argue for the recognized institutions of Church and State to be formally and and without question divorced/segregated in order for both to carry out their respective mandates without hindrance or 'infection' of facets which are exclusive within their
respective boundaries. It is our right to ensure that said institutions are lawfully kept within their respective boundaries in order for the democratic infrastructure to be enforced and maintained in good faith and order.
 
airplay
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RE: U.S. Religious Right Sending Money To Canada

Wed Feb 09, 2005 3:09 am

Ahhhh terrific. Airplay comparing US social conservatives to the KKK. What a ridiculous thing to say.

If this statement was from any other source I would give it merit. Unfortunately it is just blind contempt......

The KKK are just another "social conservative" group. Whether you chose to acknowledge it or not....
 
jaysit
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RE: U.S. Religious Right Sending Money To Canada

Wed Feb 09, 2005 3:41 am

If I used the "f" word in any of my posts regarding gays, I'd get deleted and maybe suspended. Yet, words as nuts, zealots, narrowminded, ignorant, ...

The f-word is akin to the N-word.

It is an expletive.

Yes, you would get deleted and suspended.

The words nut, zealot, narrow-minded and ignorant are words that exist in the dictionary. If the description applies to these people, so be it.

. . . and so on are freely used to call people who happen to have a faith.

Do not engage in indiscriminate lumping together of the intolerant Christian right, and people of faith. People of faith come in all shapes and sizes and beliefs. Jimmy Carter is a man of faith; Dr. Francis Collins, Director of the National Center of Human Genome Research, is not only a man of faith, but an Evangelical. The words above do not apply to these people or all people of faith, just to those who seek to impose their credo of hatred and intolerance on others.
 
SFOMEX
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RE: U.S. Religious Right Sending Money To Canada

Wed Feb 09, 2005 5:28 am

Jaysit:

I wonder why you didn't paste my complete paragraph. You left "pustule" out. Does pustule also describes people and therefore is a valid word? Do you approve the use of the word "pustules" to name people of faith? In this context, is pustule an expletive or not?
 
jpetekyxmd80
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RE: U.S. Religious Right Sending Money To Canada

Wed Feb 09, 2005 5:40 am

I wonder how the right would feel about this issue if involved a little $$$ for them. Like Adephia cable. Large contributor to the Republican party, George W. Bush, and Rick Santorum. Adelphia is pioneering making XXX pornography available on pay per view for the first time. You might think this would go against their morals. No, just money.
 
jaysit
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RE: U.S. Religious Right Sending Money To Canada

Wed Feb 09, 2005 5:51 am

The far right movement is a pustule which has to be lanced and drained if we are to move forward

SFOMex, the above is what the writer said. You have twisted his words to make your own point. It seems like that is the tactic you use. You conflated the Religious Right, who are a vicious lot, with all people of faith. By doing so, you do what the right has repeatedly done: cloak yourself with good people, and then use the accusations made by others against the religious right against all people of faith. You also insult people of faith who are NOT the religious right. Your tactics are disingenuous, and most people can see right through them.

Also, in no way did the writer call any Christian person a pustule. He compared the Christian right movement with its tactics of divide and conquer, its tactics of hatred and defamation with a pustule on American society. Abolitionists repeatedly called slavery a boil on American society that had to lanced. That is the analogy. It may be an extreme analogy, but to many Americans, the glee and pleasure the far right gets when they strip the rights of other people qualifies them to be something detrimental to American society.

Do you approve the use of the word "pustules" to name people of faith?

Your question is moot. As you can well see, the writer did not call "people of faith" pustules. He called the Christian right, that is a vocal and obnoxious minority of religious extremists, a pustule on American society. Once again, you engage in the tactic I detail above. You are becoming tiresome. Lies and deceit are not commendable qualities in a man.

I am unaware if you are a) less than fully versed in the subtleties of the English language; b) just another person on the right practicing the usual deceit; or c) lmerely lack the insight to see the distinction between abusing a perfectly innocent person by calling him/her an expletive, and comparing a political movement to the rather colorful word "pustule."
 
SFOMEX
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RE: U.S. Religious Right Sending Money To Canada

Wed Feb 09, 2005 6:33 am

Names? We have plenty more. Would you care to hear them?

You are full of hate man. And no, neither I want nor I care to hear the names you have to insult people who dare to have a faith. I'm sure you know who Fred Phelps is. Well, after reading your posts and the non-sense Phelps has on his website I can tell you that you are quite similar, you only hate different kind of people.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe I am, did not the priests, preachers and the like that stood at the pulpits in these 'houses of God' directly and indirectly instruct their respective flocks to support the oppression and segregation of the Black community?

You are not only full of hate but also wrong. Do you know who marched side by side with Dr. King and others during the Civil Rights movement? White Christian Pastors, White Catholic Priests and White religious Jews. Don't believe me? Go to you nearest public library and look for pictures of those demonstrations at the Deep South cities. Let me give you a tip. Christian clergy use a white collar that will help you to identify them out. People were racist not because of their faith, but despite their faith.

I myself am a deserter of the Roman Catholic cult, headed by Vatican Inc.

That explains a lot. You were once part of what you despise now. Rest assured, the Catholic Church has faced hate like yours before and it's facing it now and will face it in the upcoming centuries. Yet, it has always prevailed over her enemies. Despite all your best efforts, the Church will be around as long as the human being. That fact must hurt you. A lot.

I do find it more than amusing that, for centuries, countless gay men and women have taken refuge in the Catholic church as ordained priests and nuns. The numbers boggle the mind. A whole different animal is the horrific and widespread sexual abuse of children by countless priests

You have no way to prove your statement about the number of gays in the Catholic clergy. Yet, it's curious that your next line is about the minor's sexual abuse by some priests (less than the 1% of current priests in America). I'm sure you know that most cases involved young boys in their early teens. See the link? Gay priests plus sexual abuse of young boys. I don't buy it, but some people think that homosexuality is the real cause behind these crimes. BTW, this horrible sin that some of our priest have done it's been painful for all of us. Even one victim was too much. We are glad justice has been brought upon the offenders and we pray for the victim's healing and forgiveness.

Finally, I won't get into your hateful mindset. I respect and support gays and lesbians. I know they have suffered a lot and I'm glad their situation is changing. I believe that marriage is a sacred institution and therefore it should remain just as it is. They have the right to pursue their aspiration and I have the right to keep my belief. That's it.
 
jaysit
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RE: U.S. Religious Right Sending Money To Canada

Wed Feb 09, 2005 6:42 am

People were racist not because of their faith, but despite their faith.

True for most people.

However, there were very many Christian pastors in the South who not only incited their flock against desegregation, but enforced a policy of segregated Churches.

It must be noted that the Catholic Church and its nuns were at the vanguard of opposing and fighting Jim Crow attitudes and policies in the segregated South (especially Texas) on behalf of both blacks and Mexican migrants. Thus, the Catholic Church was far more progressive than other denominations.
 
jpetekyxmd80
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RE: U.S. Religious Right Sending Money To Canada

Wed Feb 09, 2005 6:47 am

Rest assured, the Catholic Church has faced hate like yours before and it's facing it now and will face it in the upcoming centuries. Yet, it has always prevailed over her enemies. Despite all your best efforts, the Church will be around as long as the human being.

Faith has prevailed DESPITE the Catholic Church, not because of it. I am Catholic but certainly do not agree with it on many levels. The Catholic Church has had a dark history which cannot be denied.

I believe that marriage is a sacred institution and therefore it should remain just as it is.

What a load of bull. You might say that about marriage in the church but we are talking about the LEGAL definition of marriage and its benefits. This is the 'sacred' marriage by which britney spears attained for hours, not years. The same marriage under which you see people with more divorces to count on one hand. The same marriage that ends in divorce more often than not. Sacred Institution: My Ass.

And stop saying Jaysit is full of hate. You two sound the same on opposite spectrums.
 
jaysit
Posts: 10185
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 11:50 pm

RE: U.S. Religious Right Sending Money To Canada

Wed Feb 09, 2005 6:51 am

And stop saying Jaysit is full of hate. You two sound the same on opposite spectrums.

I suspect he wasn't referring to me. See above. Those comments he referred to were not mine.

Also, I am not on the opposite spectrum as SFOMex. We both agree that the Catholic Church has done yeoman's service in fighting the civil rights battle in the South. Perhaps, because the Catholic Church was seen as an outsider in the Protestant South. I, however, see the Catholic Church as any institution with its flaws, and its virtues. SFOMex sees it as infallible.
 
jpetekyxmd80
Posts: 4330
Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2003 3:16 am

RE: U.S. Religious Right Sending Money To Canada

Wed Feb 09, 2005 6:58 am

My bad, I assumed he was referring to quoting you as you guys have been going back and forth for the last bit of this thread. As for infallibility...I remember back to religious ed classes and thinking 'you have GOT to be kidding me'!
 
SFOMEX
Posts: 1602
Joined: Sat Dec 04, 2004 8:55 am

RE: U.S. Religious Right Sending Money To Canada

Wed Feb 09, 2005 7:13 am

Jaysit:

You have twisted his words to make your own point. It seems like that is the tactic you use. You conflated the Religious Right, who are a vicious lot, with all people of faith.

Did I? I won't say anything else to prove you wrong. I will paste Canadi>nBoy words so you could see who's the one who didn't get it or, as you accused me, is twisting Canadi>nBoy words:

"Nothing, and I mean nothing, has caused more hell and mayhem on this planet than organized religion and the blind zealots who adhere to its teachings"

"I shall not impart my (and many others) take on the questionable history of, for example, the Roman Catholic Church & the Vatican through the ages."

"Then again, subjucation has been the primary mandate of any and all organized religious sects, and the high cost of progression and advancement of the human race."

"Newflash: religious beliefs and doctrines are not absolute and written in stone - and their followers are, everyday, practicing blind faith in and of itself."

"Don't for a second underestimate the power and subsequent damage of organized religion and the grip on man that it indeed has, and unfortunately, shall continue to have."

Is that enough clear? I'm sorry Jaysit, but Canadi>anboy wasn't talking only about the Christian right movement. He was talking about any religion. It's quite clear if you fully read his posts. Certainly, I may be "less than fully versed in the subtleties of the English language" than you, but about this the one who didn't get it was you, not me.

 
jaysit
Posts: 10185
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 11:50 pm

RE: U.S. Religious Right Sending Money To Canada

Wed Feb 09, 2005 7:24 am

None of Canadianboy's assertions are hateful in themselves.

When one refers to blind zealots one doesn't refer to the little methodist couple down the street who tend their tidy lawn but to the blind zealots associated with the Crusades or with Al Qaeda or with the Robertsons and the Falwells of the American South; the history of the Catholic Church HAS been FULL of questionable behaviour in how they punished and murdered so-called heretics on all sorts of flimsy charges; religion DOES require a great deal of blind faith (after all, the existence of God cannot be proven, and so you have to run on blind faith); and organized religion has had its detriments.

These are all truisms. Do you deny any of them? Surely you cannot believe that the Church is just a bunch of sweet and kindly nuns administering to the poor and the weak? Enormous atrocities have been committed in the name of organized religion, be it Christianity or Hinduism or Islam.

And, yes, the term "pustule" that you take so much umbrage to WAS, indeed, directed at the far Right.
 
SFOMEX
Posts: 1602
Joined: Sat Dec 04, 2004 8:55 am

RE: U.S. Religious Right Sending Money To Canada

Wed Feb 09, 2005 7:57 am

Jaysit:

I agree. I'm not that naive to believe that my Church or any Church is perfect and spotless. The Catholic Church has made mistakes. We have no argument on that. What I was trying to express is that Canadianboy went way too far blaming religion for all human evils.

Actually, I wasn't defending the Christian right at all. I agree with them on some issues, but overall I feel they tend to forget that love and respect are also Christian values.

Anyway, glad to see that we can agree on something at last.  Wink/being sarcastic

PS. And yes, pustule was an insult, far Right or not. You know it.
 
Guest

RE: U.S. Religious Right Sending Money To Canada

Wed Feb 09, 2005 7:59 am

"You are full of hate man."
What I am, Mr. SFOMEX, is angered at any and all extreme right-winged factions that define themselves as morally superior to others, and thus feel they may impart judgment on others and be the conduits for the curtailing of the rights of all men and women. I am 'full of' conviction in regards to civil, equal rights for all. I am 'full of' hope that Church & State may someday be segregated from one another. Wishful thinking, as far far too many politicians cannot seem to divorce their own personal religious ideaologies from their political mandate, a mandate that encompasses peoples of all faiths and backgrounds aside from their own.

"And no, neither I want nor I care to hear the names you have to insult people who dare to have a faith."

I do not insult faith. I identify and attack ignorance and political pseudo religious fronts. Quite a difference. Names? It would seem to me that those in the religious far right movements have plenty of them which pertain to the very people they themselves fear. Or do they fear themselves?

"I'm sure you know who Fred Phelps is."
A great and honourable man.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

"Well, after reading your posts and the non-sense Phelps has on his website I can tell you that you are quite similar, you only hate different kind of people."

Oh please.

"You are not only full of hate but also wrong. Do you know who marched side by side with Dr. King and others during the Civil Rights movement? White Christian Pastors, White Catholic Priests and White religious Jews. Don't believe me? Go to you nearest public library and look for pictures of those demonstrations at the Deep South cities. Let me give you a tip. Christian clergy use a white collar that will help you to identify them out. People were racist not because of their faith, but despite their faith."

Mr. SFOMEX, would you care to go back and carefully read what I wrote? I think you will find....here, allow me:

"This is NOT to say that such horrific signage was written, carried or condoned by ALL Christians and people of faith. That would be grossly unfair to say it was and is the case. I'm not that stupid or naive."

Needless to say, for your benefit and comprehension of my viewpoints, I hereby pledge to attach the aformentioned appendage to any future views which are expressed by myself. I would think that the above would clarify, but apparently it does not. Thank you so much for your helpful tip in my identifying 'white collar types', otherwise I would have been somewhat confused. On a serious note, it is I who beg to differ with you re clerical support re white supremacy. True, not all clergy were 'guilty', per se, but there is evidence to support the fact that just as many were, and as I stated,
were in fact the conduits who steered their right-winged flocks. And for the sake of argument, of course not every white 'Christian' was anti-Black; many supported and were outraged by the right-winged movement vis a vis the
respective Churches. Again, Mr. SFOMEX, to reiterate, I am not that stupid or naive, nor am I willing to bend the truth for the sake of my argument(s).

As Jaysit stated,

"However, there were very many Christian pastors in the South who not only incited their flock against desegregation, but enforced a policy of segregated Churches." Agreed. And by the way, Jaysit, thank you for clarifying the
'pustule' portion of my text.

Also, Jaysit stated:

"It must be noted that the Catholic Church and its nuns were at the vanguard of opposing and fighting Jim Crow attitudes and policies in the segregated South (especially Texas) on behalf of both blacks and Mexican migrants. Thus, the Catholic Church was far more progressive than other denominations."

Agreed. However, Jaysit, I'm afraid that while I applaud those Catholics who stood on the right side of this horrific struggle, I freely admit I have seen far too much negative damage inflicted by the Church. I feel many good people who are Catholics 'in good faith', if you will, are those who have opted to profess and practice their faith somewhat removed from the Vatican dogma.

And while we're on this particular tangent, I must point out that Jaysit mentioned the wonderful Jimmy Carter, a main of 'faith'. I have nothing but the utmost respect for this gentleman, and those like him. His humanitarian work throughout the globe is to be highly commended


"That explains a lot. You were once part of what you despise now."

Absolutely, and without question or argument. Certainly, I am disgusted and acutely disappointed with the Catholic Church, given the fact I was 'weened' on and at one time faithfully adhered to its teachings. I was even an altarboy, SFOMEX. I 'rang the bells' on many a Sunday. And, I'll have you know, 2 of my paternal aunts are nuns, and one of my late maternal uncles was an ordained priest. Go figure. Make no mistake about it, SFOMEX, the Vatican is not what it appears to be or professes itself to be in the eyes of the flock. Their political, economic agenda far far outweighs their 'spiritual' mandate.

"Rest assured, the Catholic Church has faced hate like yours before and it's facing it now and will face it in the upcoming centuries."

I understand the Catholic faith far better than you can imagine, SFOMEX.
In regards to their 'facing hate', one can only hope. It's perhaps what keeps the boys in Rome and its parishes on their proverbial toes, wouldn't you agree? SFOMEX, have you been enlightened on the term, 'Cause & Effect'? Look it up and ingest its meaning and how it is applied to every facet of our existence. Hate, for however one derives the term, is rooted in ignorance, to be sure, just take a look around you. Yet, 'hate' is as well the effect of cause.

As JpetekYXMD80 stated:

"Faith has prevailed DESPITE the Catholic Church, not because of it. I am Catholic but certainly do not agree with it on many levels. The Catholic Church has had a dark history which cannot be denied."

Well put.

SFOMEX, I stated way above in this thread that my research on the turbulent and quite questionable, dark history and yes, its dark and questionable present. The history of the formation and subsequent reformations of the Roman Catholic Church is far too extensive for me to go into here. That and the fact, as stated above, that it would serve those better if they themselves delve into its history and enlighten themselves on the truth. The Catholic Church has altered its course over the centuries for its own gain, a gain that has little or nothing to do with, again, what it professes itself to be.

"Yet, it has always prevailed over her enemies. Despite all your best efforts, the Church will be around as long as the human being. That fact must hurt you. A lot."

It disturbs me, a lot. Hurt? No. 'Her enemies'? Yes, 'She' does indeed have her fair share, no? Cause and effect, my friend. The world is not as black and white as you perhaps think it to be.

In closing here, I must reiterate my profound wish for the complete separation of Church & State in all nations. It is what should have been implemented from word go. It is the way, the path to the future. A quite difficult agenda, perhaps, but one that will lead to a better world and lives lived. Insurmountable? Nothing truly is. And contrary to what some may think or believe, the pro-gay marriage movement is NOT seeking to have their marriages performed or condoned by the Church, rather, they are seeking full State sanctioning of said unions. So I really do not comprehend what all the outrage from the right-wingers is about. Rather simplistic view and statement, I concur, but nonetheless....

Now, can someone who opposes equal rights being extended to Gay men and women (which includes marriage rights) come on here and provide reasoning and aruguments that exclude any or all organized religious factors?







 
PacificWestern
Posts: 517
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 3:30 am

RE: U.S. Religious Right Sending Money To Canada

Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:05 am

Canadianboy stop taking Dr. Mr. Luther Kings words and the struggles of the Civil Rights Movement to further your own personal politcal agenda. There is no comparison. Gays are not oppressed, they weren't hosed down, they don't have to sit on the back of the bus, not allowed to vote or use separate water fountains. You can not identify with my grandparent's past struggles. The Black Church is tired of your movement using their historic struggles for personal gain. You do realize that Dr. King was a Christian minister and most certainly would not condone same-sex marriage.

And what does Coretta Scott King have to say?

--"Gay and lesbian people have families, and their families should have legal protection, whether by marriage or civil union," she said. "A constitutional amendment banning same-sex marriages is a form of gay bashing and it would do nothing at all to protect traditional marriages."

--"I believe very strongly that all forms of bigotry and discrimination are equally wrong and should be opposed by right-thinking Americans everywhere. Freedom from discrimination based on sexual orientation is surely a fundamental human right in any great democracy, as much as freedom from racial, religious, gender, or ethnic discrimination."

--"I still hear from people who claim to be followers of Martin Luther King, Jr., but who think I should be silent about the human rights concerns of gays and lesbians. All I can do is tell these folks that the civil rights movement that I believe in thrives on unity and inclusion, not division and exclusion."

--"My husband understood that all forms of discrimination and persecution were unjust and unacceptable for a great democracy. He believed that none of us could be free until all of us were free, that a person of conscience had no alternative but to defend the human rights of all people." She continued, "I want to reaffirm my determination to secure the fullest protection of the law for all working people, regardless of their sexual orientation...it is right, just, and good for America."

 
Guest

RE: U.S. Religious Right Sending Money To Canada

Wed Feb 09, 2005 11:13 pm

PacificWestern,

You beat me to it!  Smile/happy/getting dizzy I had thought that Coretta had indeed made reference to this particular issue, and had it on the brain re my earlier reply re Martin Luther King Jr. quotes. Anyway, as soon as I found it.....voila...your quick insight and sharp eye caught it and posted it.

Thanks for illuminating the parallel.

Cheers
Canadi>nBoy

 
PHXFLY
Posts: 81
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2005 10:11 am

RE: U.S. Religious Right Sending Money To Canada

Thu Feb 10, 2005 7:08 am

It's ironic that one of Dr. King's daughters, who is also a minister, recently participated in a rally supporting the Federal Marriage Amendment much to the consternation of her mother and other family members.

The Christian Right (I'm only referring to the likes of Falwell, Robertson, Dobson, et. al) thrives by using fear, lies, deception and lots and lots of money to demonize gay people. I'll stop calling them names when they stop telling people that I want to molest their children and take over the world These people thrive on instilling fear in their followers, otherwise they wouldn't be that popular. Fear is a powerful too for them.
 
Guest

RE: U.S. Religious Right Sending Money To Canada

Thu Feb 10, 2005 7:59 am

"It's ironic that one of Dr. King's daughters, who is also a minister, recently participated in a rally supporting the Federal Marriage Amendment much to the consternation of her mother and other family members."

With all due respect to the King family, one would think that they themselves would empathize with a human/civil rights issue such as this, given their history, struggles and achievments. However, I suppose their faith and beliefs lie behind the stand they have taken, which is no surprise. Still, I find it (their attitide to Coretta and her views) somewhat odd. Again, no offence intended.

Kudos to Coretta Scott King.

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